Date   

Re: Lightweight and Snappy Web Browsers

Andy
 

Try Brave. I believe it is modeled after Chrome, perhaps uses the Chrome engine. It has a look and feel similar to Chrome, and in my limited use, it seems very snappy, like Chrome did when I first started using it.

Andy

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bhavya shah" <bhavya.shah125@...>
To: "nvda" <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 4:59 PM
Subject: [nvda] Lightweight and Snappy Web Browsers


Dear all,

Currently, my primary web browser is Firefox, and I resort to Chrome
for large or heavy pages which Chrome renders with relative speed and
ease. However, due to certain reasons (mostly performance and resource
consumption related), I am considering to abandon Google Chrome. I was
wonderingn if there are any other known accessible web browsers that
have characteristics of being quick and snappy and lightweight.

I would greatly appreciate your inputs and suggestions.

Thanks.

--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah

Blogger at Hiking Across Horizons: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/
E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@...
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bhavyashah125/


Lightweight and Snappy Web Browsers

Bhavya shah
 

Dear all,

Currently, my primary web browser is Firefox, and I resort to Chrome
for large or heavy pages which Chrome renders with relative speed and
ease. However, due to certain reasons (mostly performance and resource
consumption related), I am considering to abandon Google Chrome. I was
wonderingn if there are any other known accessible web browsers that
have characteristics of being quick and snappy and lightweight.

I would greatly appreciate your inputs and suggestions.

Thanks.

--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah

Blogger at Hiking Across Horizons: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/
E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@...
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bhavyashah125/


locked Re: The ribbon tutorial

Nimer Jaber
 

Hello,

while this thread has not seen any responses, a few others were spun off as a result. This thread, is indeed, off-topic for this list. Why?

the rules state that topics relating to NVDA are on topic. Topics related to the ribbon or Windows are not on topic. There are mailing lists for discussions about Office and Windows, and these topics are best discussed there.

How could this topic be made on topic for this list? Had the topic discussed the use of NVDA and NVDA-specific features, it would be on topic. Had someone asked "Is there a similar feature as the virtual ribbon with NVDA" then that could be on topic. If the question was something about the accessibility or inaccessibility of part of the ribbon with NVDA, that could be on topic. If it had to do with an announcement which was verbalized by NVDA in the ribbon, that would be on topic. If it is a tutorial in general on how to use the ribbon, and it has nothing to do with NVDA, it is off-topic, and is best discussed on the chat list and/or on mailing lists which more align with the topic.

Finally, if you disagree, do not post your disagreement on list. The nvda Owner address is open for your comments, and I can promise you that they will be considered, even if they will not always be acted on.

This topic is now locked, and I urge anyone wishing to post a tutorial to get permission first from the Owner address. Had Gene reached out to the Owner address requesting permission to post something like this, it is possible that this permission may have been granted, and the topic could have been locked immediately, but this was not what happened.

Thanks everyone.


Re: Task Manager Alternatives

JM Casey
 

Hi.

 

I use Process Explorer instead of task manager, but only with the Shark guy unfortunately. It would be interesting to know why it is less accessible with NVDA (which, indeed it is), and if this can be worked out in some way.

Originally I used Process Explorer back in the Windows XP days and found that I just liked it more. I was finding the Windows task manager unbearably slow to respond (something which may have been fixed, now) and so switched back to PE, which is very fast and robust, but again, only with JFW, which does irk me somewhat.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: June 25, 2019 10:34 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Task Manager Alternatives

 

On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 10:04 AM, Tyler Spivey wrote:

I think you mean Process Explorer; that's more like task manager.

You're correct.  There is a utility called Process Monitor as well, but it was Process Explorer that I meant.   It's been ages since I used it and for me I've always found it overkill for general use, but I don't know of any others.  It will be interesting to see if others do, and particularly accessible options.

In playing with it now for a few moments it's not accessible in any useful sense with NVDA.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

Puritanism:  The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.

        ~ H.L. Mencken

 

 


locked Re: More tutorials like this, was The ribbon tutorial

 

Gene,

           The group rules are not up for reconsideration, and there has already been extensive discussion about that.   The arrangement such that NVDA-centric questions belong here, and those about anything else in the Chat Subgroup, benefits those who wish to get information about either subject.

           It is up to any member whether or not they wish to join the Chat Subgroup.  But non-NVDA-centric topics will be locked, as this one now is.

           As has already been noted, if you have concerns you'd like to raise about group policy, those should be directed to the group owner via nvda+owner@groups.io 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

Puritanism:  The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.

        ~ H.L. Mencken

 

 


locked Re: To Brian: More tutorials like this, was The ribbon tutorial

 

Two off-topic for the main forum posts don't make either on-topic.   Since group rules/policy are not up for debate on the list, this topic is now locked.

Concerns about administration on this group, or any group, should be addressed to the group owner.  In the case of this group, that address is nvda+owner@nvda.groups.io 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

Puritanism:  The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.

        ~ H.L. Mencken

 

 


locked To Brian: More tutorials like this, was The ribbon tutorial

Janet Brandly
 

Brian,

 

With all due respect, if the post I wrote was not appropriate for this list, why was the post I referred to posted? It also does not directly deal with using NVDA.

 

Regards,

 

Jan

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 9:56 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] More tutorials like this, was The ribbon tutorial

 

Tutorials such as the Ribbons Tutorial, which is invaluable, and others that deal with using Windows features or the features of a specific program, really belong on the Chat Subgroup, as the discussion is not about using NVDA specifically in any meaningful way, but about Windows in the case of the Ribbons and an application in the case of Outlook.

Please post this sort of content on the Chat Subgroup.

chat+subscribe@nvda.groups.io - Subscription Address
chat@nvda.groups.io - Posting Address
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

Puritanism:  The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.

        ~ H.L. Mencken

 

 


locked Re: More tutorials like this, was The ribbon tutorial

Gene
 

The chat group only has about 76 members.  That means that not even one-hundred people of the over 1,100 members of this list will see it.  I therefore ask for a reconsideration of the decision and that some consideration be given to this when deciding what to allow on the list.  . 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] More tutorials like this, was The ribbon tutorial

Tutorials such as the Ribbons Tutorial, which is invaluable, and others that deal with using Windows features or the features of a specific program, really belong on the Chat Subgroup, as the discussion is not about using NVDA specifically in any meaningful way, but about Windows in the case of the Ribbons and an application in the case of Outlook.

Please post this sort of content on the Chat Subgroup.

chat+subscribe@nvda.groups.io - Subscription Address
chat@nvda.groups.io - Posting Address
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

Puritanism:  The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.

        ~ H.L. Mencken

 

 


locked Re: More tutorials like this, was The ribbon tutorial

Gene
 

Thank you.  I'm glad you find it useful. 
 
I don't use Outlook and, though I've done presentations they are many years old.  I'm not sure how many of them are current enough to still be useful. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 10:46 AM
Subject: [nvda] More tutorials like this, was The ribbon tutorial

Hello Gene and all,

 

Thanks for posting this tutorial. It’s straight-forward and concise. Gene, do you have other tutorials that you have written and would be willing to make available? I’m particularly interested in something for Outlook. I started using it a couple of months ago. It’s quite bulky and not very intuitive.

 

Thanks for all your hard work!

 

Jan

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 9:33 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] The ribbon tutorial

 

Here, below my signature, is the ribbon tutorial I created awhile ago.  It probably won't take more than about ten minutes to read straight through, though of course, working with it will take longer.

 

Gene

 

I'll provide a brief tutorial based on what I wrote years ago of how to work with ribbons. 

 

I've added a little to it here.

 

I don't know how the organization of Windows has changed in Windows 10 but this description should allow you to look through the Windows ribbons, or any other ribbons, and see how things are organized. 

 

First, I'll discuss a structure found in later versions of Windows that you need to know about-- the split button. 
One thing you will see as you look around ribbons and in other places in Windows are split buttons. A split button often allows you to see more options than just the default action.  Let's take an example. 
Let's say you come across a split button that says shut down Windows.  If you press enter on that button, Windows will shut down.  That is the default action.  Split buttons often show more options if you either right arrow while on the button or down arrow.  As an example, if you are on the shut down split button, you can right arrow and a list of options will open.  the items in the list include sleep, hibernate, restart, and others.  You up or down arrow through the list or use the short cut commands you hear announced as you move through the list.  the letter shortcuts often take actions without pressing enter so be careful when using them, just as you are in menus. 

 

So, let's review.  You find a split button that says shut down.  If you press enter, the computer will shut down. If you right arrow, other options may be displayed.  Or if you down arrow, other options may be displayed.  A split button won't work with both methods.  One method, either right arrowing or down arrowing will do so if it can be done with the button.  Try both methods if you don't know which one might work.  If you are on a tool bar which extends across the screen from left to right, down arrowing will open additional options.  If you think about this, it makes sense.  If you are in a menu, down arrowing will move you to the next item in the menu.  So you right arrow on the split button to cause it to display more options.  In a tool bar that extends across the screen from left to right, right arrowing will move you to the next item in the tool bar.  So you down arrow when on the split button to cause it to display more options.  But some tool bars run up and down the screen, as menus do.  And at times, you may not be sure which way a structure extends on screen.  So, as I said, if you are not sure or don't know, try both methods of causing the split button to display more options.  Often, one of them will work. If you open the options a split button offers and don't want to work with them, arrow in the opposite direction to move out of them.  For example, if you right arrowed to open more options, left arrow. 
Some split buttons don't do anything when you right arrow or down arrow.  In that case, open them with alt down arrow.  Then tab through the additional options.  I've almost never worked in this way with split buttons but if you want to close a split button, try alt up arrow if you've used alt down arrow to open it.

 

Now, to ribbons themselves.

 

Regarding ribbons, much of the complaining about them is not warranted if you understand how they work and how to use short cut commands effectively and efficiently.  and I would strongly recommend against using the JAWS virtual menus, no matter what the JAWS training material says about ribbons being difficult to use.  the training material is just plain wrong and using virtual menus, you will be unnecessarily dependent on one screen-reader.  There are other disadvantages to using them which I won't go into here.

 

Try looking at ribbons and doing what is described below in wordpad.  Everyone with Windows 7 has Wordpad on their machine.  Wordpad provides a good environment to look at and practice working with ribbons.  

 

The essence of working with ribbons is this:
Press alt to move to the upper ribbon.
You will probably be on an item that says home tab. Items on the upper ribbon are announced as tabs such as home tab, view tab, etc. 
To see what ribbons are available, right or left arrow repeatedly to move through the ribbons.  Move in one
direction to move through all of them, just as you would to move through all the menus.

 

For this demonstration, just so we are all doing the same thing, move with the right arrow. When you get back to where you started, you can keep right arrowing to move through the items again, if you wish.  You can move through all the items as many times as you want. Or you can move with the left arrow whenever you want to move in the opposite direction.  

 

Stop on view.  Then start tabbing.  You will move through all items in what is called the lower ribbon that are in the view ribbon. 

 

In other words you tab to see the items in a ribbon once you move to it.  Tab moves you forward through the items, shift tab moves you backword.
So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow. 

 

Many items in the lower ribbon are buttons.  Use either the space bar or enter to activate the button. You may find a button that opens a menu and if you press enter or the space bar, you will then be in a menu.

 

Each time you move to an item, you will hear the short cut command to work with that item. 
But JAWS has a bug and you often won't.  To hear the short cut, use the command JAWS key tab.  If you are using the default JAWS key, it is either insert.

 

Try tabbing to an item in a Wordpad ribbon and using the command insert tab.  You will hear some extraneous information.  The last thing you will hear is the short cut sequence.  You can repeat the information by repeating the command as often as you want.

 

Let's look at an item which is usually called the application menu.  Return to the main program window in wordpad by closing the ribbons.  You can either press escape repeatedly, if necessary, or you can press alt once.  Now, open the ribbons again with alt. 
Start right arrowing until you get to the application menu.
You will hear application menu and then something like button drop down grid.  Never mind drop down grid.  It's a description you don't have to worry about.  The important things are that you are on a button and at the application menu.  Press enter or the space bar to activate the button.  Activating the button opens the menu.  Start down arrowing. you will hear all the short cut commands necessary to open an item or take an action.  When you got to the menu item, you heard alt f.  When you open the menu and move through it, you will hear all the letters announced.  for example, if you down arrow to save as, you will hear alt f a.  that means that, when you are in the main program window, you open the menu as you always did, alt f, then type a.  Alt f opens the menau and a then opens save as.  Ribbon programs have one menu and you should look through it.  Many important and common commands and interfaces such as options may be there.  By options, I mean the kind of options interface you used to find in the tools menu.

 

Now the we have seen the menu, let's look at the ribbons structure some more.
To review, and add more information, as you have seen, you can move to the ribbon interface with alt.  Then right and left arrow, just as you would move from menu to menu. 
You can also move to a ribbon using alt and a letter.  So, alt h takes you to the home ribbon.  Alt v takes you to the view ribbon, etc.  Once you are on the ribbon you want to work with, tab to move forward through the items in a ribbon.  Shift tab to move back through the items.  So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow.
Ribbons are divided into categories which you will hear announced as you tab.  for example, in an e-mail program, a ribbon may have a category named respond.  You may hear this announced as respond tool bar.  As you tab, you will hear commands such as reply and forward in the respond category.  When you hear a category announced, don't tab until you hear everything spoken.  You will miss the first command in the category if you do.  I'm talking about working with an unfamiliar ribbon. 
there are often many more commands and items in a ribbon than in a menu.  So memorize command sequences for items you know you will use regularly. 
As I said, there are different categories in ribbons to help organize items.  You can quickly jump from category to category in a ribbon to help you see if there is a category you want to look through. 
Move to a ribbon in Wordpad.  For example, alt h for hhome or alt v for view.
Then repeatedly issue the command control right arrow to move forward from category to category and control left arrow to move back.  When you get to a category you want to hear the items in, start tabbing.  Of course, you can shift tab to move back. 

 

Open a ribbon in Wordpad and tab through it to see how it is organized by moving through it. 
Then use control right arrow to move by category and tab to see what is in a category. 

 

Commands such as control o, control n, control s, control r, etc. are mostly retained in programs
that use ribbons, though you won't hear them announced. If you don't already know them, you'll have to find them in ways such as by looking at a list of keyboard commands for the program.  Such lists are often available in the help for the program. If you already know the commands from having used an older version of the program, most or perhaps even all of the commands you know will work.  


locked Re: More tutorials like this, was The ribbon tutorial

 

Tutorials such as the Ribbons Tutorial, which is invaluable, and others that deal with using Windows features or the features of a specific program, really belong on the Chat Subgroup, as the discussion is not about using NVDA specifically in any meaningful way, but about Windows in the case of the Ribbons and an application in the case of Outlook.

Please post this sort of content on the Chat Subgroup.

chat+subscribe@nvda.groups.io - Subscription Address
chat@nvda.groups.io - Posting Address
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

Puritanism:  The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.

        ~ H.L. Mencken

 

 


Re: Using NVDA With Studio One

 

I approved this topic mostly because of the request for resources regarding using NVDA with this specific program.

Please, if the discussion turns toward using Studio One, all its commands, and navigating the application, please pursue that on the Chat Subgroup.
chat+subscribe@nvda.groups.io - Subscription Address
chat@nvda.groups.io - Posting Address
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

Puritanism:  The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.

        ~ H.L. Mencken

 

 


locked More tutorials like this, was The ribbon tutorial

Janet Brandly
 

Hello Gene and all,

 

Thanks for posting this tutorial. It’s straight-forward and concise. Gene, do you have other tutorials that you have written and would be willing to make available? I’m particularly interested in something for Outlook. I started using it a couple of months ago. It’s quite bulky and not very intuitive.

 

Thanks for all your hard work!

 

Jan

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 9:33 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] The ribbon tutorial

 

Here, below my signature, is the ribbon tutorial I created awhile ago.  It probably won't take more than about ten minutes to read straight through, though of course, working with it will take longer.

 

Gene

 

I'll provide a brief tutorial based on what I wrote years ago of how to work with ribbons. 

 

I've added a little to it here.

 

I don't know how the organization of Windows has changed in Windows 10 but this description should allow you to look through the Windows ribbons, or any other ribbons, and see how things are organized. 

 

First, I'll discuss a structure found in later versions of Windows that you need to know about-- the split button. 
One thing you will see as you look around ribbons and in other places in Windows are split buttons. A split button often allows you to see more options than just the default action.  Let's take an example. 
Let's say you come across a split button that says shut down Windows.  If you press enter on that button, Windows will shut down.  That is the default action.  Split buttons often show more options if you either right arrow while on the button or down arrow.  As an example, if you are on the shut down split button, you can right arrow and a list of options will open.  the items in the list include sleep, hibernate, restart, and others.  You up or down arrow through the list or use the short cut commands you hear announced as you move through the list.  the letter shortcuts often take actions without pressing enter so be careful when using them, just as you are in menus. 

 

So, let's review.  You find a split button that says shut down.  If you press enter, the computer will shut down. If you right arrow, other options may be displayed.  Or if you down arrow, other options may be displayed.  A split button won't work with both methods.  One method, either right arrowing or down arrowing will do so if it can be done with the button.  Try both methods if you don't know which one might work.  If you are on a tool bar which extends across the screen from left to right, down arrowing will open additional options.  If you think about this, it makes sense.  If you are in a menu, down arrowing will move you to the next item in the menu.  So you right arrow on the split button to cause it to display more options.  In a tool bar that extends across the screen from left to right, right arrowing will move you to the next item in the tool bar.  So you down arrow when on the split button to cause it to display more options.  But some tool bars run up and down the screen, as menus do.  And at times, you may not be sure which way a structure extends on screen.  So, as I said, if you are not sure or don't know, try both methods of causing the split button to display more options.  Often, one of them will work. If you open the options a split button offers and don't want to work with them, arrow in the opposite direction to move out of them.  For example, if you right arrowed to open more options, left arrow. 
Some split buttons don't do anything when you right arrow or down arrow.  In that case, open them with alt down arrow.  Then tab through the additional options.  I've almost never worked in this way with split buttons but if you want to close a split button, try alt up arrow if you've used alt down arrow to open it.

 

Now, to ribbons themselves.

 

Regarding ribbons, much of the complaining about them is not warranted if you understand how they work and how to use short cut commands effectively and efficiently.  and I would strongly recommend against using the JAWS virtual menus, no matter what the JAWS training material says about ribbons being difficult to use.  the training material is just plain wrong and using virtual menus, you will be unnecessarily dependent on one screen-reader.  There are other disadvantages to using them which I won't go into here.

 

Try looking at ribbons and doing what is described below in wordpad.  Everyone with Windows 7 has Wordpad on their machine.  Wordpad provides a good environment to look at and practice working with ribbons.  

 

The essence of working with ribbons is this:
Press alt to move to the upper ribbon.
You will probably be on an item that says home tab. Items on the upper ribbon are announced as tabs such as home tab, view tab, etc. 
To see what ribbons are available, right or left arrow repeatedly to move through the ribbons.  Move in one
direction to move through all of them, just as you would to move through all the menus.

 

For this demonstration, just so we are all doing the same thing, move with the right arrow. When you get back to where you started, you can keep right arrowing to move through the items again, if you wish.  You can move through all the items as many times as you want. Or you can move with the left arrow whenever you want to move in the opposite direction.  

 

Stop on view.  Then start tabbing.  You will move through all items in what is called the lower ribbon that are in the view ribbon. 

 

In other words you tab to see the items in a ribbon once you move to it.  Tab moves you forward through the items, shift tab moves you backword.
So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow. 

 

Many items in the lower ribbon are buttons.  Use either the space bar or enter to activate the button. You may find a button that opens a menu and if you press enter or the space bar, you will then be in a menu.

 

Each time you move to an item, you will hear the short cut command to work with that item. 
But JAWS has a bug and you often won't.  To hear the short cut, use the command JAWS key tab.  If you are using the default JAWS key, it is either insert.

 

Try tabbing to an item in a Wordpad ribbon and using the command insert tab.  You will hear some extraneous information.  The last thing you will hear is the short cut sequence.  You can repeat the information by repeating the command as often as you want.

 

Let's look at an item which is usually called the application menu.  Return to the main program window in wordpad by closing the ribbons.  You can either press escape repeatedly, if necessary, or you can press alt once.  Now, open the ribbons again with alt. 
Start right arrowing until you get to the application menu.
You will hear application menu and then something like button drop down grid.  Never mind drop down grid.  It's a description you don't have to worry about.  The important things are that you are on a button and at the application menu.  Press enter or the space bar to activate the button.  Activating the button opens the menu.  Start down arrowing. you will hear all the short cut commands necessary to open an item or take an action.  When you got to the menu item, you heard alt f.  When you open the menu and move through it, you will hear all the letters announced.  for example, if you down arrow to save as, you will hear alt f a.  that means that, when you are in the main program window, you open the menu as you always did, alt f, then type a.  Alt f opens the menau and a then opens save as.  Ribbon programs have one menu and you should look through it.  Many important and common commands and interfaces such as options may be there.  By options, I mean the kind of options interface you used to find in the tools menu.

 

Now the we have seen the menu, let's look at the ribbons structure some more.
To review, and add more information, as you have seen, you can move to the ribbon interface with alt.  Then right and left arrow, just as you would move from menu to menu. 
You can also move to a ribbon using alt and a letter.  So, alt h takes you to the home ribbon.  Alt v takes you to the view ribbon, etc.  Once you are on the ribbon you want to work with, tab to move forward through the items in a ribbon.  Shift tab to move back through the items.  So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow.
Ribbons are divided into categories which you will hear announced as you tab.  for example, in an e-mail program, a ribbon may have a category named respond.  You may hear this announced as respond tool bar.  As you tab, you will hear commands such as reply and forward in the respond category.  When you hear a category announced, don't tab until you hear everything spoken.  You will miss the first command in the category if you do.  I'm talking about working with an unfamiliar ribbon. 
there are often many more commands and items in a ribbon than in a menu.  So memorize command sequences for items you know you will use regularly. 
As I said, there are different categories in ribbons to help organize items.  You can quickly jump from category to category in a ribbon to help you see if there is a category you want to look through. 
Move to a ribbon in Wordpad.  For example, alt h for hhome or alt v for view.
Then repeatedly issue the command control right arrow to move forward from category to category and control left arrow to move back.  When you get to a category you want to hear the items in, start tabbing.  Of course, you can shift tab to move back. 

 

Open a ribbon in Wordpad and tab through it to see how it is organized by moving through it. 
Then use control right arrow to move by category and tab to see what is in a category. 

 

Commands such as control o, control n, control s, control r, etc. are mostly retained in programs
that use ribbons, though you won't hear them announced. If you don't already know them, you'll have to find them in ways such as by looking at a list of keyboard commands for the program.  Such lists are often available in the help for the program. If you already know the commands from having used an older version of the program, most or perhaps even all of the commands you know will work.  


Using NVDA With Studio One

organsinger@...
 

Hello, everyone.
I am writing to find out whether anyone has experience using studio one, a digital audio workstation, with NVDA. Also, does anyone know of resources that would help me learn to do this?
Thank you in advance for any help.
Julie


Re: Keystrokes from other screenreaders NVDA does not have

Gene
 

I am sending the ribbon tutorial to the list twice.  I sent it once in a message saying what it is in the subject line and again, now in a message with the same subject line as the thread where it began to be discussed.  It appears under my signature.
 
Gene
 
I'll provide a brief tutorial based on what I wrote years ago of how to work with ribbons. 
 
I've added a little to it here.
 
I don't know how the organization of Windows has changed in Windows 10 but this description should allow you to look through the Windows ribbons, or any other ribbons, and see how things are organized. 
 
First, I'll discuss a structure found in later versions of Windows that you need to know about-- the split button. 
One thing you will see as you look around ribbons and in other places in Windows are split buttons. A split button often allows you to see more options than just the default action.  Let's take an example. 
Let's say you come across a split button that says shut down Windows.  If you press enter on that button, Windows will shut down.  That is the default action.  Split buttons often show more options if you either right arrow while on the button or down arrow.  As an example, if you are on the shut down split button, you can right arrow and a list of options will open.  the items in the list include sleep, hibernate, restart, and others.  You up or down arrow through the list or use the short cut commands you hear announced as you move through the list.  the letter shortcuts often take actions without pressing enter so be careful when using them, just as you are in menus. 
 
So, let's review.  You find a split button that says shut down.  If you press enter, the computer will shut down. If you right arrow, other options may be displayed.  Or if you down arrow, other options may be displayed.  A split button won't work with both methods.  One method, either right arrowing or down arrowing will do so if it can be done with the button.  Try both methods if you don't know which one might work.  If you are on a tool bar which extends across the screen from left to right, down arrowing will open additional options.  If you think about this, it makes sense.  If you are in a menu, down arrowing will move you to the next item in the menu.  So you right arrow on the split button to cause it to display more options.  In a tool bar that extends across the screen from left to right, right arrowing will move you to the next item in the tool bar.  So you down arrow when on the split button to cause it to display more options.  But some tool bars run up and down the screen, as menus do.  And at times, you may not be sure which way a structure extends on screen.  So, as I said, if you are not sure or don't know, try both methods of causing the split button to display more options.  Often, one of them will work. If you open the options a split button offers and don't want to work with them, arrow in the opposite direction to move out of them.  For example, if you right arrowed to open more options, left arrow. 
Some split buttons don't do anything when you right arrow or down arrow.  In that case, open them with alt down arrow.  Then tab through the additional options.  I've almost never worked in this way with split buttons but if you want to close a split button, try alt up arrow if you've used alt down arrow to open it.
 
Now, to ribbons themselves.
 
Regarding ribbons, much of the complaining about them is not warranted if you understand how they work and how to use short cut commands effectively and efficiently.  and I would strongly recommend against using the JAWS virtual menus, no matter what the JAWS training material says about ribbons being difficult to use.  the training material is just plain wrong and using virtual menus, you will be unnecessarily dependent on one screen-reader.  There are other disadvantages to using them which I won't go into here.
 
Try looking at ribbons and doing what is described below in wordpad.  Everyone with Windows 7 has Wordpad on their machine.  Wordpad provides a good environment to look at and practice working with ribbons.  
 
The essence of working with ribbons is this:
Press alt to move to the upper ribbon.
You will probably be on an item that says home tab. Items on the upper ribbon are announced as tabs such as home tab, view tab, etc. 
To see what ribbons are available, right or left arrow repeatedly to move through the ribbons.  Move in one
direction to move through all of them, just as you would to move through all the menus.
 
For this demonstration, just so we are all doing the same thing, move with the right arrow. When you get back to where you started, you can keep right arrowing to move through the items again, if you wish.  You can move through all the items as many times as you want. Or you can move with the left arrow whenever you want to move in the opposite direction.  
 
Stop on view.  Then start tabbing.  You will move through all items in what is called the lower ribbon that are in the view ribbon. 
 
In other words you tab to see the items in a ribbon once you move to it.  Tab moves you forward through the items, shift tab moves you backword.
So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow. 
 
Many items in the lower ribbon are buttons.  Use either the space bar or enter to activate the button. You may find a button that opens a menu and if you press enter or the space bar, you will then be in a menu.
 
Each time you move to an item, you will hear the short cut command to work with that item. 
But JAWS has a bug and you often won't.  To hear the short cut, use the command JAWS key tab.  If you are using the default JAWS key, it is either insert.
 
Try tabbing to an item in a Wordpad ribbon and using the command insert tab.  You will hear some extraneous information.  The last thing you will hear is the short cut sequence.  You can repeat the information by repeating the command as often as you want.
 
Let's look at an item which is usually called the application menu.  Return to the main program window in wordpad by closing the ribbons.  You can either press escape repeatedly, if necessary, or you can press alt once.  Now, open the ribbons again with alt. 
Start right arrowing until you get to the application menu.
You will hear application menu and then something like button drop down grid.  Never mind drop down grid.  It's a description you don't have to worry about.  The important things are that you are on a button and at the application menu.  Press enter or the space bar to activate the button.  Activating the button opens the menu.  Start down arrowing. you will hear all the short cut commands necessary to open an item or take an action.  When you got to the menu item, you heard alt f.  When you open the menu and move through it, you will hear all the letters announced.  for example, if you down arrow to save as, you will hear alt f a.  that means that, when you are in the main program window, you open the menu as you always did, alt f, then type a.  Alt f opens the menau and a then opens save as.  Ribbon programs have one menu and you should look through it.  Many important and common commands and interfaces such as options may be there.  By options, I mean the kind of options interface you used to find in the tools menu.
 
Now the we have seen the menu, let's look at the ribbons structure some more.
To review, and add more information, as you have seen, you can move to the ribbon interface with alt.  Then right and left arrow, just as you would move from menu to menu. 
You can also move to a ribbon using alt and a letter.  So, alt h takes you to the home ribbon.  Alt v takes you to the view ribbon, etc.  Once you are on the ribbon you want to work with, tab to move forward through the items in a ribbon.  Shift tab to move back through the items.  So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow.
Ribbons are divided into categories which you will hear announced as you tab.  for example, in an e-mail program, a ribbon may have a category named respond.  You may hear this announced as respond tool bar.  As you tab, you will hear commands such as reply and forward in the respond category.  When you hear a category announced, don't tab until you hear everything spoken.  You will miss the first command in the category if you do.  I'm talking about working with an unfamiliar ribbon. 
there are often many more commands and items in a ribbon than in a menu.  So memorize command sequences for items you know you will use regularly. 
As I said, there are different categories in ribbons to help organize items.  You can quickly jump from category to category in a ribbon to help you see if there is a category you want to look through. 
Move to a ribbon in Wordpad.  For example, alt h for hhome or alt v for view.
Then repeatedly issue the command control right arrow to move forward from category to category and control left arrow to move back.  When you get to a category you want to hear the items in, start tabbing.  Of course, you can shift tab to move back. 
 
Open a ribbon in Wordpad and tab through it to see how it is organized by moving through it. 
Then use control right arrow to move by category and tab to see what is in a category. 
 
Commands such as control o, control n, control s, control r, etc. are mostly retained in programs
that use ribbons, though you won't hear them announced. If you don't already know them, you'll have to find them in ways such as by looking at a list of keyboard commands for the program.  Such lists are often available in the help for the program. If you already know the commands from having used an older version of the program, most or perhaps even all of the commands you know will work.  


Re: Using NVDA to view certain parts of the windows 10 weather app.

 

It will probably help if you post back with the location you're viewing, and when a notice is active.  It's the only way anyone has a live example to play around with unless there happens to be a notice for their own area.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

Puritanism:  The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.

        ~ H.L. Mencken

 

 


locked The ribbon tutorial

Gene
 

Here, below my signature, is the ribbon tutorial I created awhile ago.  It probably won't take more than about ten minutes to read straight through, though of course, working with it will take longer.
 
Gene
 
I'll provide a brief tutorial based on what I wrote years ago of how to work with ribbons. 
 
I've added a little to it here.
 
I don't know how the organization of Windows has changed in Windows 10 but this description should allow you to look through the Windows ribbons, or any other ribbons, and see how things are organized. 
 
First, I'll discuss a structure found in later versions of Windows that you need to know about-- the split button. 
One thing you will see as you look around ribbons and in other places in Windows are split buttons. A split button often allows you to see more options than just the default action.  Let's take an example. 
Let's say you come across a split button that says shut down Windows.  If you press enter on that button, Windows will shut down.  That is the default action.  Split buttons often show more options if you either right arrow while on the button or down arrow.  As an example, if you are on the shut down split button, you can right arrow and a list of options will open.  the items in the list include sleep, hibernate, restart, and others.  You up or down arrow through the list or use the short cut commands you hear announced as you move through the list.  the letter shortcuts often take actions without pressing enter so be careful when using them, just as you are in menus. 
 
So, let's review.  You find a split button that says shut down.  If you press enter, the computer will shut down. If you right arrow, other options may be displayed.  Or if you down arrow, other options may be displayed.  A split button won't work with both methods.  One method, either right arrowing or down arrowing will do so if it can be done with the button.  Try both methods if you don't know which one might work.  If you are on a tool bar which extends across the screen from left to right, down arrowing will open additional options.  If you think about this, it makes sense.  If you are in a menu, down arrowing will move you to the next item in the menu.  So you right arrow on the split button to cause it to display more options.  In a tool bar that extends across the screen from left to right, right arrowing will move you to the next item in the tool bar.  So you down arrow when on the split button to cause it to display more options.  But some tool bars run up and down the screen, as menus do.  And at times, you may not be sure which way a structure extends on screen.  So, as I said, if you are not sure or don't know, try both methods of causing the split button to display more options.  Often, one of them will work. If you open the options a split button offers and don't want to work with them, arrow in the opposite direction to move out of them.  For example, if you right arrowed to open more options, left arrow. 
Some split buttons don't do anything when you right arrow or down arrow.  In that case, open them with alt down arrow.  Then tab through the additional options.  I've almost never worked in this way with split buttons but if you want to close a split button, try alt up arrow if you've used alt down arrow to open it.
 
Now, to ribbons themselves.
 
Regarding ribbons, much of the complaining about them is not warranted if you understand how they work and how to use short cut commands effectively and efficiently.  and I would strongly recommend against using the JAWS virtual menus, no matter what the JAWS training material says about ribbons being difficult to use.  the training material is just plain wrong and using virtual menus, you will be unnecessarily dependent on one screen-reader.  There are other disadvantages to using them which I won't go into here.
 
Try looking at ribbons and doing what is described below in wordpad.  Everyone with Windows 7 has Wordpad on their machine.  Wordpad provides a good environment to look at and practice working with ribbons.  
 
The essence of working with ribbons is this:
Press alt to move to the upper ribbon.
You will probably be on an item that says home tab. Items on the upper ribbon are announced as tabs such as home tab, view tab, etc. 
To see what ribbons are available, right or left arrow repeatedly to move through the ribbons.  Move in one
direction to move through all of them, just as you would to move through all the menus.
 
For this demonstration, just so we are all doing the same thing, move with the right arrow. When you get back to where you started, you can keep right arrowing to move through the items again, if you wish.  You can move through all the items as many times as you want. Or you can move with the left arrow whenever you want to move in the opposite direction.  
 
Stop on view.  Then start tabbing.  You will move through all items in what is called the lower ribbon that are in the view ribbon. 
 
In other words you tab to see the items in a ribbon once you move to it.  Tab moves you forward through the items, shift tab moves you backword.
So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow. 
 
Many items in the lower ribbon are buttons.  Use either the space bar or enter to activate the button. You may find a button that opens a menu and if you press enter or the space bar, you will then be in a menu.
 
Each time you move to an item, you will hear the short cut command to work with that item. 
But JAWS has a bug and you often won't.  To hear the short cut, use the command JAWS key tab.  If you are using the default JAWS key, it is either insert.
 
Try tabbing to an item in a Wordpad ribbon and using the command insert tab.  You will hear some extraneous information.  The last thing you will hear is the short cut sequence.  You can repeat the information by repeating the command as often as you want.
 
Let's look at an item which is usually called the application menu.  Return to the main program window in wordpad by closing the ribbons.  You can either press escape repeatedly, if necessary, or you can press alt once.  Now, open the ribbons again with alt. 
Start right arrowing until you get to the application menu.
You will hear application menu and then something like button drop down grid.  Never mind drop down grid.  It's a description you don't have to worry about.  The important things are that you are on a button and at the application menu.  Press enter or the space bar to activate the button.  Activating the button opens the menu.  Start down arrowing. you will hear all the short cut commands necessary to open an item or take an action.  When you got to the menu item, you heard alt f.  When you open the menu and move through it, you will hear all the letters announced.  for example, if you down arrow to save as, you will hear alt f a.  that means that, when you are in the main program window, you open the menu as you always did, alt f, then type a.  Alt f opens the menau and a then opens save as.  Ribbon programs have one menu and you should look through it.  Many important and common commands and interfaces such as options may be there.  By options, I mean the kind of options interface you used to find in the tools menu.
 
Now the we have seen the menu, let's look at the ribbons structure some more.
To review, and add more information, as you have seen, you can move to the ribbon interface with alt.  Then right and left arrow, just as you would move from menu to menu. 
You can also move to a ribbon using alt and a letter.  So, alt h takes you to the home ribbon.  Alt v takes you to the view ribbon, etc.  Once you are on the ribbon you want to work with, tab to move forward through the items in a ribbon.  Shift tab to move back through the items.  So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow.
Ribbons are divided into categories which you will hear announced as you tab.  for example, in an e-mail program, a ribbon may have a category named respond.  You may hear this announced as respond tool bar.  As you tab, you will hear commands such as reply and forward in the respond category.  When you hear a category announced, don't tab until you hear everything spoken.  You will miss the first command in the category if you do.  I'm talking about working with an unfamiliar ribbon. 
there are often many more commands and items in a ribbon than in a menu.  So memorize command sequences for items you know you will use regularly. 
As I said, there are different categories in ribbons to help organize items.  You can quickly jump from category to category in a ribbon to help you see if there is a category you want to look through. 
Move to a ribbon in Wordpad.  For example, alt h for hhome or alt v for view.
Then repeatedly issue the command control right arrow to move forward from category to category and control left arrow to move back.  When you get to a category you want to hear the items in, start tabbing.  Of course, you can shift tab to move back. 
 
Open a ribbon in Wordpad and tab through it to see how it is organized by moving through it. 
Then use control right arrow to move by category and tab to see what is in a category. 
 
Commands such as control o, control n, control s, control r, etc. are mostly retained in programs
that use ribbons, though you won't hear them announced. If you don't already know them, you'll have to find them in ways such as by looking at a list of keyboard commands for the program.  Such lists are often available in the help for the program. If you already know the commands from having used an older version of the program, most or perhaps even all of the commands you know will work.  


Re: Keystrokes from other screenreaders NVDA does not have

Gene
 

I'm going to send the tutorial as part of the text of a message to the list.  You can use it wherever you want. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Keystrokes from other screenreaders NVDA does not have

Holy crap, signatures on the web archive are annoying, but anyway, I'd love to have this document on the web somewhere. I'd love to know more native commands that JAWS does, like, windows B for insert F11, and things like that. I've only looked through 5 messages of this thread, so can someone send me the document link if it was created, or send the switching from other screen readers document again. And Gene, can I turn that ribbon tutorial into a page on github so it will always be in the sidebar? If so, send me the document, but I'd really like if you would upload it yourself.


Re: Keystrokes from other screenreaders NVDA does not have

Richard Bartholomew
 

Using Windows 10, I have no issues accessing Dropbox from the system tray via Winkey+B and pressing return on the button.  Similarly, no issues I’ve noticed with the network settings in systray either.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 25 June 2019 14:02
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Keystrokes from other screenreaders NVDA does not have

 

I have reported here more than once and one or two other people agreed, that certain icons can't be activated when in the actual System Tray.  This is either one of the same people repeating this as before or its another person reporting the same thing.

 

I don't know what can and can't be worked with now in Windows 10 or if this is still true of the Drop Box icon.  I couldn't get it to activate in the system tray itself, at least at times. 

 

Also, in Windows 7, when you move around after entering the system tray for the first time in a session, if you move with the arrow keys to the network icon, it opens something you don't want to open and you have the annoyance of your moving through items in the system tray interrupted.  We'll see if other people report other problems.  it isn't a question of whether they are minor.  NVDA developers insist that there is no need for the system tray add-on to be incorporated into the program.  there is.  This is not just a question of a different way of doing something.  It is a question of providing a method that works properly in certain instances when the actual system tray doesn't. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 7:19 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Keystrokes from other screenreaders NVDA does not have

 

Hi Ian,

 

If you prefer using the addon and NVDA+F11 that's fine - but I would be interested in exploring what doesn't work for you if you use Windows+B.

 

Is it that you can't get to all the icons with Windows+B?  If that is the case I think I have a solution.  If you press the WINDOWS key, then type "Select which icons appear on the taskbar" (or as much of that as brings up that option in "system settings" to open).  The first item in this settings window is "Always show all icons in the notification area".  If you have it set to "on", then it should show icons for any program running which has a system tray icon.  If you have it set to off, it will only show regularly used or new items and a "Notification chevron button".  To get to those extra icons, press space or enter on that to open the "Overflow notification area", then use the up and down arrows to navigate between all of the icons in both the regular and overflow notification areas.

 

If that isn't the problem you're having, I'd definitely be interested in learning more about the issue.

 

Kind regards


Quentin.

 

On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 8:02 PM Ian Blackburn <ianblackburn@...> wrote:

Hi all

I would like to explain why having different ways to access windows features can be useful.

I run Windows 10 latest build 1903

What I will explain is the system tray. Now windows + B goes to system tray. however, sometimes the icons there cannot be activated with NVDA (at least for my situation). The add on which allows NVDA+f11 allows activation of some system tray icons that I cannot access any other  sensible way.

Another example is the  use of the right mouse button. i am talking about the use of the various ways to activate it with the keyboard running NVDA.

The different ways of activating it sometimes produce different results.

The ways I know how to activate the right mouse button include: using the physical button on the mouse, using the function key on the right hand bottom of the QWERTY keyboard near the right CTRl key, using shift+f10 and using the NVDA right mouse klick on the numeric pad. Sometimes any one of these will produce different results on the object you are focused on.

So none of these ways is incorrect but sometimes a particular choice will produce a particular outcome. I am not a programmer and don’t understand the difference from the point of view of the operating system behind these and other commands we use as NVDA users.

i really appreciate the effort and time put in by all those who write NVDA and its adding  because for me on windows NVDA is my primary screen reader.

For whatever reason  Microsoft decided to abandon menus in favour of ribbons but other os’s use menus; including Mac OSX and Gnome on linux.

regards
Ian

On 25 Jun 2019, at 5:36 pm, Quentin Christensen <quentin@...> wrote:

Before anyone jumps on Peter's question on one side or the other, I'll just throw in for Peter's sake, that is basically where this thread arose from - a discussion in another thread (on drag and drop) around using WINDOWS+B to get to the system tray vs using INSERT+F11 (which some other screen readers offer and you can get in NVDA via an add-on).

I wasn't really looking for a discussion on that in this thread, more using that as an example where another screen reader provides its own keystroke which users feel is lacking in NVDA, and particularly where the reason NVDA doesn't follow suit, is that, like accessing the system tray, there is a built-in way to do it in Windows itself.

Regards

Quentin.

On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 7:30 PM Peter Beasley <pjbeasley23@...> wrote:
What’s wrong with windows key B which is that standard windows command for the system tray/notification area.



Sent from Mail for Windows 10



From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: 25 June 2019 05:37
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Keystrokes from other screenreaders NVDA does not have



The discussion in the Drag and drop thread around the system tray has got me thinking:

- The NV Access philosophy is that if Windows includes functionality which is accessible, why re-invent the wheel

- Users who come from other screen readers get confused when they are encouraged to use the Windows keystrokes for functionality they are used to being provided by the screen reader.



I was going to mention the "Switching from Jaws to NVDA" document in that thread, but in reading it just now, I noted that it does NOT, in fact, include how to perform tasks such as access the system tray.



So, can anyone please give me examples of functionality that other screen readers provide (such as INSERT+F11 to access the system tray), that NVDA expects people to use the Windows keystroke (WINDOWS+B in the case of the system tray) for?



I'd like to collate them and update the relevant documents with them, and potentially even make a document all its own if needed.



Kind regards



Quentin.

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager



NVDA 2019.2beta1 now available!



Web: www.nvaccess.org

Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess







--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

NVDA 2019.2beta1 now available!

Web: www.nvaccess.org
Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/
User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess





 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 

NVDA 2019.2beta1 now available!

 


Re: Keystrokes from other screenreaders NVDA does not have

 

Holy crap, signatures on the web archive are annoying, but anyway, I'd love to have this document on the web somewhere. I'd love to know more native commands that JAWS does, like, windows B for insert F11, and things like that. I've only looked through 5 messages of this thread, so can someone send me the document link if it was created, or send the switching from other screen readers document again. And Gene, can I turn that ribbon tutorial into a page on github so it will always be in the sidebar? If so, send me the document, but I'd really like if you would upload it yourself.


Re: Task Manager Alternatives

 

On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 10:04 AM, Tyler Spivey wrote:
I think you mean Process Explorer; that's more like task manager.
You're correct.  There is a utility called Process Monitor as well, but it was Process Explorer that I meant.   It's been ages since I used it and for me I've always found it overkill for general use, but I don't know of any others.  It will be interesting to see if others do, and particularly accessible options.

In playing with it now for a few moments it's not accessible in any useful sense with NVDA.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

Puritanism:  The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.

        ~ H.L. Mencken