Date   
can't select list item in schrome with nvda 2019.1 beta

Alexandre Alves Toco
 

Hello!

The link below opens a google form.

It is in portuguese. In the first step you have to fill the e-mail and tab to the “próximo button”.

The second step opens a list and the user is required to select one item.

In nvda 2018.4.1., the focused item is selected by default.

Nvda 2019.1 beta says that the item is unselected. I tried to press spacebar to select the item but schrome closed.

I also tried to join the mouse to the navigator object and click it. But it didn’t work eather.

https://sites.google.com/site/secretariapiloto188cvv/diarioplantao

 

 

Enviado do Email para Windows 10

 

Re: bread crumb

Sarah k Alawami
 

No it is not. It is a way for you to keep track of where you were and what path you too to get there like the bread crumbs Hanzel and grettle used to find their way hrough a forest.

On 9 Mar 2019, at 18:39, Monte Single wrote:

Using win 7 with nvda and firefox.

 

Currently, well for the last two weeks, the CELA library here in Canada has been undergoin y  a major makeover along with a bookshare merge.

Most of it seems pretty haywire; when I do a search I think I am getting just bookshare results.  The CELA   help people tell me they are working on it.

When I do a search, I am getting  something I have never heard before.  After I press the search button and  press h for heading a couple of times, I hear;

 

“bread crumb navigation”

 

Is this  a NVDA  feature?

Thanks,

Monte

Re: bread crumb

Arlene
 

Oh, okay.  Thanks. I hope they fix it soon! 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Monte Single
Sent: March 9, 2019 9:00 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] bread crumb

 

Yes, Mario sent a link explaining breadcrumbs  as being part of web page navigation and not a feature of nvda.

I checked the cela website  

  An hour ago and it is still virtualy l useless to me.

So, things can only improve;  the question is, when?

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Arlene
Sent: March-09-19 10:45 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] bread crumb

 

Hi there: I’m not sure if that’s a feature with NVDA or not. I seen this with my win 7 before.  I thought it was the site. Yes Cela is under construction.  I’ve been busy with an online course. I haven’t been on the cela site since January.  Or early February.  During that time, my win 7 bit the dust.  I now have a win ten box.  I now use Chrome as a default browser.  I’ll try Cela using it.  I find Chrome preforms faster then IE and firefox. 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Monte Single
Sent: March 9, 2019 6:39 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] bread crumb

 

Using win 7 with nvda and firefox.

 

Currently, well for the last two weeks, the CELA library here in Canada has been undergoin y  a major makeover along with a bookshare merge.

Most of it seems pretty haywire; when I do a search I think I am getting just bookshare results.  The CELA   help people tell me they are working on it.

When I do a search, I am getting  something I have never heard before.  After I press the search button and  press h for heading a couple of times, I hear;

 

“bread crumb navigation”

 

Is this  a NVDA  feature?

Thanks,

Monte

 

 

Re: bread crumb

Monte Single
 

Yes, Mario sent a link explaining breadcrumbs  as being part of web page navigation and not a feature of nvda.

I checked the cela website  

  An hour ago and it is still virtualy l useless to me.

So, things can only improve;  the question is, when?

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Arlene
Sent: March-09-19 10:45 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] bread crumb

 

Hi there: I’m not sure if that’s a feature with NVDA or not. I seen this with my win 7 before.  I thought it was the site. Yes Cela is under construction.  I’ve been busy with an online course. I haven’t been on the cela site since January.  Or early February.  During that time, my win 7 bit the dust.  I now have a win ten box.  I now use Chrome as a default browser.  I’ll try Cela using it.  I find Chrome preforms faster then IE and firefox. 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Monte Single
Sent: March 9, 2019 6:39 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] bread crumb

 

Using win 7 with nvda and firefox.

 

Currently, well for the last two weeks, the CELA library here in Canada has been undergoin y  a major makeover along with a bookshare merge.

Most of it seems pretty haywire; when I do a search I think I am getting just bookshare results.  The CELA   help people tell me they are working on it.

When I do a search, I am getting  something I have never heard before.  After I press the search button and  press h for heading a couple of times, I hear;

 

“bread crumb navigation”

 

Is this  a NVDA  feature?

Thanks,

Monte

 

Re: bread crumb

Arlene
 

Hi there: I’m not sure if that’s a feature with NVDA or not. I seen this with my win 7 before.  I thought it was the site. Yes Cela is under construction.  I’ve been busy with an online course. I haven’t been on the cela site since January.  Or early February.  During that time, my win 7 bit the dust.  I now have a win ten box.  I now use Chrome as a default browser.  I’ll try Cela using it.  I find Chrome preforms faster then IE and firefox. 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Monte Single
Sent: March 9, 2019 6:39 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] bread crumb

 

Using win 7 with nvda and firefox.

 

Currently, well for the last two weeks, the CELA library here in Canada has been undergoin y  a major makeover along with a bookshare merge.

Most of it seems pretty haywire; when I do a search I think I am getting just bookshare results.  The CELA   help people tell me they are working on it.

When I do a search, I am getting  something I have never heard before.  After I press the search button and  press h for heading a couple of times, I hear;

 

“bread crumb navigation”

 

Is this  a NVDA  feature?

Thanks,

Monte

 

Re: Firefox and Extensions' section

 

Oops, my bad. Indeed, I meant 66 :)

Cheers,
Marcio AKA Starboy
Follow or add me on Facebook

Em 09/03/2019 05:26, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io escreveu:

It is supposed to be back ported to 66 according to how I interpret it.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "marcio via Groups.Io" <marcinhorj21@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, March 08, 2019 4:13 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox and Extensions' section


Good news! YAY!
Just looking forward to the 67 one :)


Cheers,
Marcio
AKA /Starboy/


Follow or add me on Facebook <https://facebook.com/firirinfonfon>

Em 08/03/2019 07:16, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io escreveu:
And finally.. From Jamie in response to my ticket on nvda bug tracker.

This is fixed for Firefox 66, as both patches got uplifted from 67.
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1525569https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1525937

You are receiving this because you authored the thread.
















Re: NVDA questions

 

Hi,
I just saw this email since I was catching up with all of the emails I got today.
Although this email has been sent quite earlier, it seems there wasn't any answer.
I'm making it come up again hoping someone could help this time.
So, anyone, please? :)

Cheers,
Marcio AKA Starboy
Follow or add me on Facebook

Em 09/03/2019 03:13, Teri McElroy escreveu:

Hi

I've just joined the list and am hoping someone can help with a couple of questions.

Later this year I'm studying a course where I need to be able to read phonetic/phonemic symbols.

Does anyone know if it is possible to alter NVDA in the same way as I have been able to do for Jaws? I want to be able to have NVDA speak back phonetic/phonemic symbols to me and name them correctly. This is specific to linguistic studies, and does not refer to the words such as "charley" or "delta" NVDA uses to clarify which letter is being announced.

It would also be helpful if I could have NVDA display these symbols in braille with my braille display.

I have a list of unicode symbols and what they mean. Is there a way I can  add the list of symbols to my selected speech engine so NVDA will announce the symbols correctly, and to the braille tables as well?

Also, if I run NVDA portable, can I still use Eloquence as my prefered speech engine?

Part of the course has a teaching component and I need to use the computer in the classroom at Tech. It would make things much easier if I could use portable NVDA on a thumb drive with Eloquence.

Thanks for any help with this.


Teri






bread crumb

Monte Single
 

Using win 7 with nvda and firefox.

 

Currently, well for the last two weeks, the CELA library here in Canada has been undergoin y  a major makeover along with a bookshare merge.

Most of it seems pretty haywire; when I do a search I think I am getting just bookshare results.  The CELA   help people tell me they are working on it.

When I do a search, I am getting  something I have never heard before.  After I press the search button and  press h for heading a couple of times, I hear;

 

“bread crumb navigation”

 

Is this  a NVDA  feature?

Thanks,

Monte

NV Access at CSUN

Quentin Christensen
 

Hi everyone,

We're away at the CSUN conference in Anaheim, California for the next week.  If anyone is going, we're presenting and would love to see you:

           Title: NVDA: Updates, new features and the 2019 Outlook

           Date:  Wednesday, March 13, 2019

           Time: 9:00 AM

           Location: Grand Ballroom G&H


Otherwise, I'll be back in a week and a bit to catch up on the group.

Regards

Quentin.
--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 

Re: Threaded emails view in Outlook

Tony Malykh
 

This is exactly what I was looking for, it works! Thanks for the tip!

On 3/9/2019 10:13 AM, Rui Fontes wrote:
Have you tried to press spacebar to select the message?

Rui Fontes


Às 17:48 de 09/03/2019, Tony Malykh escreveu:
Hello all and especially Brian Vogel,
I was trying to use Outlook with Threaded list of emails view. Brian Vogel gave me advice that I should navigate through this list using Control+Up and Down arrows to prevent the threads from autoexpanding.
That works at first glance, but here is the problem I ran into. Supposed I am initially at the very first email in the list. I press Control+Down a few times until I find the right email that I want to open. Suppose that's just a single email, not a thread. However, when I press Enter on it, Outlook would open the very first email in the list, not the one that I selected using Control+Down arrow. It feels like there are two types of cursors there and Control+Down is moving the wrong type. So how to open the right email? Is there perhaps a keystroke to sync these two cursors?

I was trying to do it naive way - Once I'm on the right email with Control+Down, I would try to press up and then down, but then again, because the threads are autoexpanding on me, pressing up and then down doesn't necessarily bring you to the same email. Do you have any other suggestions?

Thanks
Tony





Re: Threaded emails view in Outlook

Tony Malykh
 

Brian,

I have View ribbon > show messages as conversations > Conversation Settings > Always expand selected conversation unchecked, yet Outlook still keeps autoexpanding conversations. Am I doing something wrong? As a result Up arrow / Down arrow trick doesn't work for me.


On 3/9/2019 11:21 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Gene,

           Beautiful description of the general case when it comes to lists.  I often tell my students that when they land in a list and on the first item that they cannot and should not assume it's selected.  A quick down then up arrow ensures that it is.

            As you said, CTRL plus up or down arrow allows list traversal without selection occurring, which is precisely why individual conversations do not open when you're running through the list.  The default behavior with Outlook is the moment a conversation is selected it will be auto-expanded (which can be turned off, but it's not by default).

            If you know you've landed on a conversation that you wish to review the messages contained within, then select and expand it and use regular up/down arrow as you go through it.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 

Re: Threaded emails view in Outlook

Jason White
 

You can turn off the auto-expansion of threads in the mail options of Outlook.

I find threaded view easier to use in Outlook for Mac. I know that doesn't help NVDA users though, but in case any of you have a Mac and an Office 365 subscription, it's worth trying.

On 3/9/19, 12:48, "Tony Malykh" <nvda@nvda.groups.io on behalf of anton.malykh@...> wrote:

Hello all and especially Brian Vogel,
I was trying to use Outlook with Threaded list of emails view. Brian
Vogel gave me advice that I should navigate through this list using
Control+Up and Down arrows to prevent the threads from autoexpanding.
That works at first glance, but here is the problem I ran into. Supposed
I am initially at the very first email in the list. I press Control+Down
a few times until I find the right email that I want to open. Suppose
that's just a single email, not a thread. However, when I press Enter on
it, Outlook would open the very first email in the list, not the one
that I selected using Control+Down arrow. It feels like there are two
types of cursors there and Control+Down is moving the wrong type. So how
to open the right email? Is there perhaps a keystroke to sync these two
cursors?

I was trying to do it naive way - Once I'm on the right email with
Control+Down, I would try to press up and then down, but then again,
because the threads are autoexpanding on me, pressing up and then down
doesn't necessarily bring you to the same email. Do you have any other
suggestions?

Thanks
Tony

Re: Accessible Lightweight PDF Viewers

Jason White
 

I've experienced good results from the PDF viewer included in Google Chrome (both under Windows and Mac). I haven't run Adobe Reader for quite a while now, as Chrome tends to give as good, if not better, presentation of many of the PDF files that I read. The rest are images that require OCR in any case.

On 3/7/19, 15:27, "Bhavya shah" <nvda@nvda.groups.io on behalf of bhavya.shah125@...> wrote:

Dear all,

I currently have a 144 mb file that is one of my Physics textbooks.
From the file size, it is easy to infer the massiveness of this
document. Hence, opening it in Adobe Acrobat DC is not always
practical as it takes an infeasible amount of time to load all pages.
Hence, I am in need of some alternate accessible PDF viewing solution
which is relatively lightweight and is likely to be substantially
quicker in loading a large PDF for viewership.

Alternatively, another approach towards addressing my needs that I can
think of is to split this huge PDF into a bunch of different PDFs
which individually are smaller files and thus likely to be faster to
open. In case you are aware of some tool to split a large PDF file
into a few smaller ones, I would appreciate if you could share those
as well.

I am open to using both of the above approaches simultaneously for
maximally mitigating the current problem as well, if need be.

Thanks.

--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah

Blogger at Hiking Across Horizons: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/

Contacting Me
E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@...
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bhavyashah125/
Twitter: @BhavyaShah125
Skype: bhavya.09

Re: Ad blocker for NVDA and Firefox?

Ian Blackburn
 

Sounds like a good idea however the malicious software could then click the shortcut key and turn off your ad blocker and put the advertisement in the webpage


On 10 Mar 2019, at 4:31 am, JM Casey <jmcasey@...> wrote:

Brian, that makes sense; I thought it must be something like that, I was just leary of using the term “power button” without any sort of context for what that meant.

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: March 9, 2019 10:18 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Ad blocker for NVDA and Firefox?

 

On Sat, Mar 9, 2019 at 03:41 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:

What is needed is an ad blocker with a hot key toggle that can be disabled and re enabled at will, including the refresh required to get that page back.

Then you would be well advised to contact the developer of your favorite ad-blocker asking for same.  Over the years that's how a number of features came to be.

As a side note to JM, it is appropriate to describe the on/off button for uBlock Origin as looking like a power button, because it does.  He uses a huge version of the graphic (relatively speaking) for the button to toggle uBlock Origin off.  Clicked on it alone you get uBlock Origin disabled for the site itself that you're visiting.  If you CTRL+click it then it's disabled only for the page you're viewing.  Disabling uBlock Origin for a specific site or page "sticks" unless you reenable it.  It will still be disabled on later visits unless it's reenabled.

For those using NVDA and Firefox, if you have frequent need to toggle uBlock Origin off and on it's an almost perfect function to use Golden Cursor for, as you can get yourself to the button positions "instantly" rather than having to use object navigation repeatedly to find them.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 

Re: Accessible Lightweight PDF Viewers

 

Bhavya,

          I'll try to cover both bases.

          The first is a utility for splitting or merging PDF files.  I absolutely love PDF Split and Merge, more commonly called PDF Sam, which is free and open source.  I have used the Basic version for both purposes.  I cannot speak to how accessible it is, but even if it were 100% accessible if you can get a sighted assistant to find the actual PDF pages where your chapters would need to be split out and to enter those quickly it will save you a lot of time.

           I have also repeatedly posted about Tracker Software's PDF-XChange Viewer, which, while not 100% accessible (or even close, really), it has top notch OCR capabilities that are accessible in multiple languages and where, after OCRing the PDF file, you can just save the text layer integrated with the PDF itself, so it can be opened in Adobe Reader or the reader of your choice and never need to be OCRed again.  Even though they list this as discontinued, it is only further product enhancement that has been discontinued.  They have been issuing other types of updates since it was designated as discontinued.  What follows are the instructions I wrote up for a couple of my students who were graduate students who seemed to constantly be getting old and arcane material that had been image scanned to PDF long before the age of OCR upon scan became common.   I have also used the language packs that are available for PDF-XChange Viewer with a private client who is a translator, and she has told me that the Swedish OCR capability is every bit as good as the English has been for me.

Dealing with Image Scanned PDF Files

Using PDF XChange Viewer to perform OCR on any PDF you receive that is an image PDF, step-by-step:

1.     Open PDF XChange Viewer from your start menu.

2.     Hit ALT+F,O to bring up the file open browsing dialog.

3.     Hit ALT+I to jump directly to the Look In combo box

4.     Hit down arrow to get into the area that’s somewhat, but not exactly, like the tree view in Windows Explorer.

5.     Hit L until you hear, “Libraries,” announced.

6.     Hit TAB two times, you should hear, “Documents”.

7.     Hit SPACEBAR to select the Documents library.

8.     Hit ENTER to open the documents library.

9.     Hit the first character of the folder or file name you’re trying to perform OCR on. Keep doing this with the first character until you hear its name announced.

10.                        Hit Enter to open the file or folder.  If you’re dealing with a file at this step go straight to step 11.  Otherwise, do the following

a.     If you know the file is in this folder then use the “hit the first character” technique to locate it and jump to step 11 once you have.

b.     If you need to drill down another folder level go back to step 9.

11.                        Hit ALT+O to open the file in PDF XChange Viewer.

12.                        Hit CTRL+SHIFT+C to open the OCR dialog box.  Immediately hit ENTER to initiate the OCR processing.  The length of time this takes depends on the size of the file being processed.  JAWS does not read the processing status box, but will announce the file’s name with star after it when the processing completes.  That’s how you’ll know it’s done.

13.                        Hit ALT+F,S to save the file and its OCR text into the original file itself.

14.                        Hit ALT+F4 to close PDF XChange Viewer.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 

Re: Accessible Lightweight PDF Viewers

 

I'd suggest the webbie PDF reader because it has OCR built in, but you could also upload it to Google Docs and have Google OCR it for you, if needed, You can then publish the text as a web page, download it in basically any format you wish.

Re: RCFV software beta

 

This looks great! But I have no intention of trying it out on this new machine. I think I'm becoming more minimalist, but my desire to test new software has evaporated these past few years. Maybe that will change when I get some of these writing deadlines done.

Re: Ad blocker for NVDA and Firefox?

JM Casey
 

Brian, that makes sense; I thought it must be something like that, I was just leary of using the term “power button” without any sort of context for what that meant.

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: March 9, 2019 10:18 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Ad blocker for NVDA and Firefox?

 

On Sat, Mar 9, 2019 at 03:41 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:

What is needed is an ad blocker with a hot key toggle that can be disabled and re enabled at will, including the refresh required to get that page back.

Then you would be well advised to contact the developer of your favorite ad-blocker asking for same.  Over the years that's how a number of features came to be.

As a side note to JM, it is appropriate to describe the on/off button for uBlock Origin as looking like a power button, because it does.  He uses a huge version of the graphic (relatively speaking) for the button to toggle uBlock Origin off.  Clicked on it alone you get uBlock Origin disabled for the site itself that you're visiting.  If you CTRL+click it then it's disabled only for the page you're viewing.  Disabling uBlock Origin for a specific site or page "sticks" unless you reenable it.  It will still be disabled on later visits unless it's reenabled.

For those using NVDA and Firefox, if you have frequent need to toggle uBlock Origin off and on it's an almost perfect function to use Golden Cursor for, as you can get yourself to the button positions "instantly" rather than having to use object navigation repeatedly to find them.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 

Re: Firefox control buttons+Re: [nvda] Ad blocker for NVDA and Firefox?

JM Casey
 

Hi.

I will give this a try. My NVDA instalation appears to be broken at the moment, but once I fix that..*grins*

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Kwork
Sent: March 8, 2019 9:41 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Firefox control buttons+Re: [nvda] Ad blocker for NVDA and Firefox?

 

Here's what I do:

1. When focussed on the address bar, press nvda+up arrow on the numpad to move up an element.

2. Press nvda+numpad right arrow to move through the buttons that the installed extentions have placed.

3. When I find what I want, I press nvda+numpad enter to activate it.

Hope this answers what you asked. I haven't found any other way that works.

Travis

On 3/8/2019 6:14 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Another vote for uBlock Origin.

That being said, does anyone here know how to get to the various control buttons that are physically located to the right of the address bar, e.g., the Firefox menu button plus all of the buttons that get put there as you add add-ons?   I could swear that I once posted the technique to get to these, but I can find nothing in my own notes.  It has to be possible to navigate to these somehow, but it's not nearly as easy as it is under Chrome.

When I take the mouse over these controls, NVDA definitely announces them, but what I cannot seem to do is find the magic technique to actually throw focus on to any of them.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 

Re: what is bouncing nvda group

ADRIAN POCOCK
 

Hi Thank you for your help.

I have added nvda to safe senders list so hope that does it.

Regards Adrian.

On 09/03/2019 19:52, Gene wrote:
I wonder if the problem is more complicated or perhaps I should say, more difficult to resolve.  Some messages must be getting to the list and from the list because the person has been participating in threads.  So I wonder if there is a technical difficulty that will be difficult to figure out.  Perhaps the problem will resolve itself over time. 
 
Of course, there is no reason not to contact the provider but I wonder if it would be better to get a GMail Account and use it for Groups.io mail.  Off and on, a message from a list ends up in spam but not often and I haven't had a bouncing problem since I started using GMail for Groups.io mail many months ago.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2019 1:26 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] what is bouncing nvda group

Your email service provider is what bounces Groups.io e-mail messages, and if using the "unbounce request" doesn't resolve it, then you need to contact your email service provider and ask them to whitelist any domain that ends in groups.io.

I recently posted about issues with Earthlink blocking Groups.io messages as spam.

If customers complain, and make it clear that Groups.io is a subscription e-mail list service, these issues with blocking/bouncing are likely to get resolved both more rapidly and more permanently.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back