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Re: Giving the right amount of feedback
Tyler Spivey
I agree with you, and it's not just state transitions.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
NVDA really doesn't focus on user experience, and it shows. I can count some things off the top of my head. 1. The focus issues. There are threads about this on this list. I seem to remember there being code in NVDA which will drop focus events if too many of them come in. 2. If you have NVDA going through a specific audio device and you switch your default, NVDA will simply stop speaking, or switch to another audio device. 3. NVDA uses a keyboard hook to intercept all keys. Sometimes it gets into a state where it doesn't pass the keys anywhere. the result of this is your keyboard no longer works, except for win+l and ctrl+alt+delete. If you press ctrl+alt+delete, you might think you can launch task manager. As soon as you do, you're back on your normal desktop with NVDA still capturing the keyboard. The only thing you can do is sign out, losing some or all of your work, or figure out how to kill NVDA either with a second account or with a non-keyboard-based solution. 4. NVDA has a review cursor. In consoles and edit fields, if I press NVDA+backspace, NVDA moves my navigator to the focus, where I can use that review cursor to review my text again if I moved it. This is useful for, say, finding the top of a function in my editor without moving the system cursor. However, what happens if you do this same thing in browse mode? Your navigator gets moved to the focus, but you then can't move the review cursor around like you could when you first entered the browser. IIRC this is by design. 5. If a program stops responding, NVDA goes with it. Take Event Viewer. View one event's details with enter. From there, press escape and be prepared to figure out how to get NVDA back, because it's most likely going to stop speaking. 6. We know that in notepad, WordPad, Microsoft Word, and other applications, we can press ctrl+f to find things. However, in browsers, we need to use ctrl+NVDA+f. Why? Because NVDA doesn't want to override the inaccessible browser find dialog. I'm sure I'm missing a few things. But IMO, none of this is good user experience.
On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 12:49 AM, Perry Simm wrote: Hi!
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Re: taking ownership of files
A Chat Subgroup topic will not be necessary, as Josh has posted to several other venues, including the Windows 10 for Screen Reader Users group, where this level of detail is decidedly on topic.
For those interested, see the topic there entitled: Taking Ownership of System Files under Windows 10 -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362 The color of truth is grey. ~ André Gide
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Re: want fire fox
Jarek.Krcmar
Hello,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
it's better to download from: http://www.mozilla.org Jarek Dne 22.07.2019 v 6:51 sazid shaik napsal(a):
as i used to download from filehippo.com --
Jarek
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Re: taking ownership of files
On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 02:59 PM, JM Casey wrote:
Maybe someone more familiar with these settings can chime in. I admit I was a bit confused and feel like I kind of muddled my way through to success.I just figured out how to do this. That being said, the "how to" is so unrelated to anything NVDA-specific that it should be taken to the Chat Subgroup. If anyone wants to discuss this in detail, launch a topic there and I will chime in. I see no point in starting one myself since I do not know whether those who may be interested have or have not subscribed to the Chat Subgroup. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362 The color of truth is grey. ~ André Gide
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Re: windows oneCore voices pause for punctuation
On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 10:09 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
There is a third dimension introduced in 2019.2: rate boost for OneCore.Thanks for the heads-up! Like so many things, there are many times when tweaking one thing in one spot will not carry over to other spots because there's something else in those other spots that takes precedence. Interactions are a PITA, and it seems that volume settings are another of those areas where issues crop up where multiple levels of control are involved. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362 The color of truth is grey. ~ André Gide
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Re: windows oneCore voices pause for punctuation
Hi, There is a third dimension introduced in 2019.2: rate boost for OneCore. Cheers, Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
I'm just curious if this is an issue no matter what the voice speed? Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362 The color of truth is grey. ~ André Gide
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Re: windows oneCore voices pause for punctuation
I'm just curious if this is an issue no matter what the voice speed?
You can nudge the voice speed up in Windows and couple that with NVDA tweaks, too. If you go to Settings, Time & Language, Speech, under the Voices section you should see the OneCore voice you're using (and I'm presuming you're using one) with a slider beneath it for Voice Speed and a button beneath that to Preview Voice. You also need to look at what the Voice Rate in NVDA is set to, as these two things play off each other. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362 The color of truth is grey. ~ André Gide
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Re: CodeFactory eloquence addon and oneCore voices
Ed Marquette
I hope you have administrator authority. We tried what you suggested, namely, installing at home outside of all of the security restrictions. It worked; however, when we tried to use it in the office without administrator privileges, the system failed again. System apparently requires administrator privileges to stay authorized. That is a very poor poor design.
On Jul 21, 2019, at 10:13 PM, Josh Kennedy <joshknnd1982@...> wrote:
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Re: windows oneCore voices pause for punctuation
Hi Josh,
not as far as I'm aware. I actually would like to do the opposite, occasionally be able to make punctuation pause longer! Sometimes I use NVDA to perform poetry to an audience (my memory capacity is for about half an hour of my own work so for longer sets than that I use NVDA). It would be nice to be able to fine-tune the pause, or to combine a full stop / period with a comma to get a little longer pause, but sadly that doesn't seem to work and only the synth makers could alter the synth to pause for shorter or longer. I'd love to know if anybody has found a way of adjusting punctuation pausing :) Giles
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Re: Giving the right amount of feedback
Gene
Its an interesting question, but I don't know if it
is possible or practical. There may be too much possible variation and it
may cause problems that don't exist now, with things being read
inappropriately. I'm speaking as a user who is not a tech and other
technically knowledgeable people may have more accurate comments and
opinions.
I think that, what would be far more useful, is a
simple list of a few things or one or two, depending on the situation, of things
to do if a problem occurs.
First, as your example illustrates, people often
waste a lot of time because they have the idea that you have to wait for long
times if something goes wrong. I've heard of people letting their computer
sit for fifteen minutes or even hours if something happens such as an
installation stopping or something hanging. That shows a complete lack of
knowledge about what should be expected. What is the maximum time that
people should wait? I don't know, but I doubt it is more then three or
four minutes.
Also, people should be taught to check and not just
wait, even a short time after something like a freeze or something temporarily
stopping. Take your case, for example. I wouldn't be surprised if
the program started functioning somewhere between ten and thirty or forty
seconts after the not responding message.
If you tabbed frequently to see what happened, you
wouldn't have changed anything, except your position on the page and you
wouldn't have waited, based on an estimage with no basis in what was actually
going on with the operating system and the program.
Also, people should know certain very elementary
knowledge such as the following:
Losing speech may or may not mean that your
screen-reader has stopped working. It may mean that the synthesizer has
stopped working. What to do if a screen-reader stops should be one of the
early things taught. I'm not sure what the best procedures are or the best
order if speech is lost when using NVDA. I know what the best procedures
and order are on my systems, but my systems don't represent whatever the average
system is and my procedures may not be the order to be stated as a general
pattern. But clear and simple instructions, do this, then do that, etc.
should be provided.
In short. screen-readers are complex programs and
they interact with a complex operating system. My opinion is that it is
far more important, and may be far more useful for users to be taught simple
points about what to do.
Also, screen-readers don't necessarily react in the
best manner for efficient use in some situations. Users should be given
simple instructions about getting rid of excess verbosity.
For example, if you do a search on a web page,
using NVDA search, you will hear a lot of extra verbosity when a result is
found. When you hear speech, issue read current line. That stops the
excess verbosity and immediately reads the line containing the search
result.
When I read an e-mail message, then close the
message and return to the message list, a lot of unnecessary information is
spoken. Pressing read current line immediately stops it and reads what I
want. Maybe I don't need to hear what it is saying because I know what
message I am on. If I press delete or use shift delete, that immediately
stops speech and deletes the message. But again, when my position changes
to the next message, a lot of unnecessary information is read. Read
current line stops it and reads what I want to hear, information about the
message I am on.
These are very simple instructions and can save a
lot of time, perhaps three or five seconds in the cases I've mentioned.
When added up over a lot of repetitions, you are talking about a good deal of
time and likely, a lot of annoyance, which will be eliminated by following the
instructions.
For convenience, I use numpad 8 because it only
requires one hand.
You can't use a screen-reader at its best
performance unless you know how to help it with instructions like this. It
appears to me that, because of the complexity of screen-readers, Windows, and
programs, you need to know that where you get excessive verbosity in cases like
this, that what I discussed should be tried, or if something else makes sense to
try, that might be tried instead, or as well.
The expectation of users of screen-readers should
be changed. Screen-readers can do a lot but the user needs to know a
little to get good performance in certain cases. I assume that if such
behavior could have been changed by screen-reader designers, that it would have
long ago, considering the over a decade that Windows screen-readers have been
around and these behaviors have been regularly encountered. It really
shouldn't have taken until now for users to be informed, as standard procedure,
in instructional material about such things as I am describing and that they be
taught that you can't expect screen-readers to perform ideally and you need to
be on the alert for things you might do in situations of excessive verbosity
such as I have described.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Perry Simm via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 2:48 AM
Subject: [nvda] Giving the right amount of
feedback Lately I've been wondering about the research that has been done to figure out the right amount of feedback that NVDA should give in different circumstances. These thoughts were triggered by the following incident: I opened up Chrome, and it came up "not responding" which, on a slow machine, can sometimes happen and is no immediate cause of concern for me. My Braille display kept showing "New Tab - Google Chrome (Not Responding)". I decided to wait it out before throwing key presses at it. When neither speech nor Braille updated for about two minutes, I decided to press tab and, much to my confusion, found that Chrome had recovered and was fully prepared to take my instructions. When something goes from not responding to ready, wouldn't it be logical to expect NVDA to tell me about this transition without me having to poll? I have a nagging suspicion, and I apologize for sounding overly critical here, that these user experience patterns are not researched at all, not even consciously specified. Rather, they are just left to random luck based on how the operating system decides to handle or propagate events. In a world where nearly every aspect of user experiences is designed and micromanaged, I feel we are lagging behind and left with unprofessional hit or miss situations. What we need are reliable, reproducible patterns or sequences which can be taught to students, fully duplicated by them, and then applied consistently, especially in workplace environments. State transitions like the one I described above must be just as obvious to the NVDA user as they are to the sighted user if he or she has been trained to recognize them. This is not rocket science. If fifty years ago it was possible to program a computer to behave consistently enough to get people to the moon, then today it must not only be possible but trivial to program it to deal consistently with common everyday exceptions while working with email and the web. For people on the autism spectrum, for example, digital systems can be a bedrock of certainty and consistency in an otherwise random sea of white noise. I am seeing strong indicators that user experience research in the area of screen readers is overdue. Most importantly, however, the user experience should always be a conscious decision, never left to fate or accident. Cheers Perry
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Re: taking ownership of files
Josh Kennedy
I wish there were an easier way overall to adjust the settings in the microsoft oneCore tts voices, ini files, maybe through the windows settings, through NVDA advanced options, or some sort of dialog box. I would use the oneCore voices if I could make them read very nice and smooth like eloquence reads.
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Giving the right amount of feedback
Perry Simm
Hi!
Lately I've been wondering about the research that has been done to figure out the right amount of feedback that NVDA should give in different circumstances. These thoughts were triggered by the following incident: I opened up Chrome, and it came up "not responding" which, on a slow machine, can sometimes happen and is no immediate cause of concern for me. My Braille display kept showing "New Tab - Google Chrome (Not Responding)". I decided to wait it out before throwing key presses at it. When neither speech nor Braille updated for about two minutes, I decided to press tab and, much to my confusion, found that Chrome had recovered and was fully prepared to take my instructions. When something goes from not responding to ready, wouldn't it be logical to expect NVDA to tell me about this transition without me having to poll? I have a nagging suspicion, and I apologize for sounding overly critical here, that these user experience patterns are not researched at all, not even consciously specified. Rather, they are just left to random luck based on how the operating system decides to handle or propagate events. In a world where nearly every aspect of user experiences is designed and micromanaged, I feel we are lagging behind and left with unprofessional hit or miss situations. What we need are reliable, reproducible patterns or sequences which can be taught to students, fully duplicated by them, and then applied consistently, especially in workplace environments. State transitions like the one I described above must be just as obvious to the NVDA user as they are to the sighted user if he or she has been trained to recognize them. This is not rocket science. If fifty years ago it was possible to program a computer to behave consistently enough to get people to the moon, then today it must not only be possible but trivial to program it to deal consistently with common everyday exceptions while working with email and the web. For people on the autism spectrum, for example, digital systems can be a bedrock of certainty and consistency in an otherwise random sea of white noise. I am seeing strong indicators that user experience research in the area of screen readers is overdue. Most importantly, however, the user experience should always be a conscious decision, never left to fate or accident. Cheers Perry
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Can I change NVDA key commands
Chris
Command Manager sounds better than manage commands
From: Marcio via Groups.Io
Sent: 22 July 2019 07:32 To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Can I change NVDA key commands
Joseph and Luke,
At least calling it "manage commands" makes more sense than what we havenow. It defines the purpose of that feature better, it denotes thatkeyboards and touchscreens are seen as commands by NVDA (or a piece of inputgesture, for those looking at NVDA source code), and leaves room forcapturing other input possibilities without changing things later (whichdoes introduce visual and linguistic side effects). I agree. "Manage Commands" sounds nice for me, and I guess now I'm sticking with this one :) AKA Starboy
Sent from a galaxy far, far away. --
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Re: Can I change NVDA key commands
Joseph and Luke,
Joseph wrote: I agree. "Manage Commands" sounds nice for me, and I guess now I'm sticking with this one :)At least calling it "manage commands" makes more sense than what we have now. It defines the purpose of that feature better, it denotes that keyboards and touchscreens are seen as commands by NVDA (or a piece of input gesture, for those looking at NVDA source code), and leaves room for capturing other input possibilities without changing things later (which does introduce visual and linguistic side effects). Cheers, Marcio AKA Starboy Sent from a galaxy far, far away. --Are you a Thunderbird user? Then join the Thunderbird mailing list to help and be helped with all Thunderbird things - questions, features, add-ons and much more!
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Re: want fire fox
Laurie Mehta
Yes, agreed, and I am using NVDA 19.1 with Win7 on a laptop that runs Firefox 68.0.1 with no problems at all. So each person's experience can differ.
On Sunday, July 21, 2019, 10:53:24 PM PDT, Felix G. <constantlyvariable@...> wrote:
Hi! I must warn against creating confusion by recommending, however indirectly, the use of outdated operating systems and browsers. NVDA strives to be compatible with the newest versions of Windows and browsers, and I believe we must be careful not to create the opposite impression. There is some potential damage to be prevented here. Best, Felix
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Re: want fire fox
Felix G.
Hi!
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
I must warn against creating confusion by recommending, however indirectly, the use of outdated operating systems and browsers. NVDA strives to be compatible with the newest versions of Windows and browsers, and I believe we must be careful not to create the opposite impression. There is some potential damage to be prevented here. Best, Felix Am Mo., 22. Juli 2019 um 07:00 Uhr schrieb zahra <nasrinkhaksar3@gmail.com>:
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Re: want fire fox
if you have a not powerful system, you need to disable multiprocess.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
i remember that i disabled both multiprocess and javascript in firefox 61 which i tested, but the result was again crashing of firefox for me!
On 7/22/19, sazid shaik <ashwaqahmed.nlr@gmail.com> wrote:
hello friends, --
By God, were I given all the seven heavens with all they contain in order that I may disobey God by depriving an ant from the husk of a grain of barley, I would not do it. imam ali
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Re: want fire fox
Gene
We don't know why it is crashing and it probably
isn't necessary to try to find out. Just leave it as it is.
Try using Firefox Portable and see if it runs
properly. If it doesn't, then there is a problem with your Windows.
If it does, then your installed version isn't worth worrying about.
You can get the current version of firefox portable
at:
If you have problems or questions, ask here.
The portable version does everything the installed version does including
running any add-ons that are compatible with the installed version.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
as coming to favorite no idea. now the fire fox is crashing and it is not working on windows sirvice pack . hence i need fire fox<div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br /> <table style="border-top: 1px solid #D3D4DE;"> <tr> <td style="width: 55px; padding-top: 13px;"><a href="https://www.avast.com/en-in/recommend?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=default3&tag=36da8cc1-460e-4857-b5bf-87d3432a4669" target="_blank"><img src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif" alt="" width="46" height="29" style="width: 46px; height: 29px;" /></a></td> <td style="width: 470px; padding-top: 12px; color: #41424e; font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; line-height: 18px;">I’m protected online with Avast Free Antivirus. <a href="https://www.avast.com/en-in/recommend?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=default3&tag=36da8cc1-460e-4857-b5bf-87d3432a4669" target="_blank" style="color: #4453ea;">Get it here — it’s free forever.</a> </td> </tr> </table><a href="#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1" height="1"></a></div> On 7/22/19, zahra <nasrinkhaksar3@...> wrote: > hello. > whats your favorite version of firefox? > i am sure that all versions of firefox are accessible. > where you download your firefox from? > > On 7/22/19, sazid shaik <ashwaqahmed.nlr@...> wrote: >> hello friends, >> i am using windows 7, version 6.1 with service pack 1. I am unable to >> open fire fox on my system. >> >> hence i request to share accessible fire fox version. >> >> thanks and regards, >> sazid >> >> >> >> > > > -- > By God, > were I given all the seven heavens > with all they contain > in order that > I may disobey God > by depriving an ant > from the husk of a grain of barley, > I would not do it. > imam ali > > > >
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Re: want fire fox
g melconian
I'm using waterfox 56. And Firefox using ESR.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of zahra Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 9:21 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] want fire fox hello. whats your favorite version of firefox? i am sure that all versions of firefox are accessible. where you download your firefox from? On 7/22/19, sazid shaik <ashwaqahmed.nlr@gmail.com> wrote: hello friends, -- By God, were I given all the seven heavens with all they contain in order that I may disobey God by depriving an ant from the husk of a grain of barley, I would not do it. imam ali
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Re: want fire fox
one day, i tested firefox 61 with windows seven and i experience
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
numerous times crashings, even using lightweight sites. but, it depend on your hardware, and version of firefox. after five years studying and testing i realized that according to my needs, the best version of firefox is firefox 50 and i never update it.
On 7/22/19, sazid shaik <ashwaqahmed.nlr@gmail.com> wrote:
as i used to download from filehippo.com --
By God, were I given all the seven heavens with all they contain in order that I may disobey God by depriving an ant from the husk of a grain of barley, I would not do it. imam ali
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