Date   

Can NVDA monitor a set area of the screen?

Robin
 

I was a long time window-eyes user, now using jaws which is a very
bloated program.
In both of these programs one could set up a window around a portion of
the screen and read it with a hot key.
can this be done with nvda?
I have only just downloaded nvda to try it, and find it very snappy.
it does'nt lose focus like jaws!

Cheers Robin.
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Re: Find On Page

Luke Davis
 

Steve Nutt wrote:

No, because people may want to use the browser find function for their own reasons.
Can you speculate what one of those reasons might be? Since in speech and braille its results can not, afaik, be accessed?

I like Joseph, don't believe in blocking app specific functions with a screen reader.
Well, I've already made my argument about browse mode effectively not being the browser, which is why in this rare case, I don't agree with that view. I won't rehash that.

Luke


Re: NVDA Speech Dict: Match pattern after line of certain pattern

William
 

Ok understood, thanks.

Luke Davis 於 16/4/2021 7:28 寫道:

William wrote:

If I want to configure NVDA speech dict to match pattern that occur after certain patter of line, is it possible?
No.

While regular expressions are capable of this, NVDA is not, because of how it processes dictionaries.

I wrote a test file:

test1
test2
test3

And did a say-all on it.
This, from the log, is how NVDA processes that event:

Input: kb(desktop):NVDA+downArrow
Speaking [CallbackCommand(name=say-all:lineReached), 'test1\r\n', CallbackCommand(name=say-all:lineReached), 'test2\r\n', CallbackCommand(name=say-all:lineReached), 'test3\r\n', CallbackCommand(name=say-all:lineReached)]

Ignoring the stuff not in single quotes, you can see that each line is handled, and therefore processed, separately.
It is little different than using your arrow key to read the text line by line.

You could commission someone to write an add-on for you to do this if you really need it, but NVDA can't do it by default.

Luke

"In this life there are obstacles, and forces who overcome obstacles. You can be either one or the other.
If you refuse to even try to clear an obstacle, you become the obstacle."
- Joel Shepherd




Re: Find On Page

Steve Nutt
 

No, because people may want to use the browser find function for their own reasons.

I like Joseph, don't believe in blocking app specific functions with a screen reader.

All the best

Steve

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-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Cavanaugh
Sent: 09 April 2021 20:11
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Find On Page

This in principal makes sense. However, when searching for plain text on a webpage, wouldn't it make sense to use the browser's find command rather than the screen reader specific one?

On 4/9/21, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
NVDA tries its best to avoid assigning app native commands to its own
functions unless a feature the app command invokes is not working well
(Excel's cell comment (F2) command is a good example of this exception
where Excel's own cell comments dialog isn't quite useful). Because
Control+F is a browser command, NVDA does not assign it to its own
find command. At first, this may seem counterintuitive, but when you
consider the fact that you must learn app commands in addition to screen reader commands, it makes sense:
let NVDA do its best at what it does, and let apps do what they do the
best (this principle is sometimes called "separation of concerns").
P.S. Although not really related to the immediate concern, when I
write app modules and need to create commands for NVDA users, I do my
best to avoid app native keyboard shortcuts.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob
Cavanaugh
Sent: Friday, April 9, 2021 11:46 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Find On Page

That was a much more technical answer than I was looking for, but
between yours and Brian's, I think I understand. In the case of
controls with no actual text that NVDA has to extract, I completely
understand where the NVDA find could be useful. That being said
though, is the fact that NVDA actually uses a virtual cursor in browse
mode the reason the control+F command never works, even when searching
for plain text? I doubt I'll ever find out for sure, but Joseph, your
programming knowledge may shed some light into how System Access
possibly worked when it comes to this issue. Because I used that
screen reader the most, it's where I have most of my experience
finding things, and control+F worked. I would imagine it had to have
some form of browse Vs. focus mode, but the end user never had to
choose because every time it encountered an input, particularly an
edit field, it automatically switched. That could be annoying at times
as I had to tab out of an edit field before I could navigate to the
next one, but it also helped at times, as there was one site I had to
use when I was in school where both NVDA and JAWS automatically went
into focus mode upon logging in, which made navigating by the quick keys I was used to impossible, but it wasn't an issue at all with System Access.

On 4/8/21, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,

I guess I need to go deeper into the layered design I mentioned in my
last reply (the best person to explain the browser side of things is
Marco Zehe from Mozilla Foundation):

To let NVDA navigate a website as though you are reading a document,
NVDA employs what’s called a “tree interceptor”. A tree interceptor
is a collection of elements that act like one large text area.
Because a tree interceptor is a collection of elements and texts
coming from these, it can include hundreds of different controls of
varying roles (straight text, form fields, links, frames, web apps,
video players, you name it). Using a tree to describe a complex
control such as a web document is quite an interesting approach –
after all, graphical user interface elements are organized like a
tree or branches, with web documents consisting of a collection of
smaller elements (and this is how HTML and ARIA coding is actually rendered on screen).

But tree interceptors are not enough. NVDA relies on three more
materials to create a completely functioning browse mode
implementation: virtual buffers, accessibility API’s, and a cursor
manager (there are other elements involved, but these three are
essential). Virtual buffers create building blocks for documents.
Accessibility API’s and standards such as IAccessible and ARIA
(Accessible Rich Internet Applications) enhance the “look and feel”
of a browse mode document. Finally, cursor managers provide commands
to move around the just created browse mode document.

The steps NVDA takes when creating a browse mode document are as follows:

1. You start a web browser. NVDA can then load appropriate support
modules
based on the browser you are using.
2. You open a new website.
3. When NVDA detects that a new page is open, NVDA will either use API’s
provided by the web browser to gather information about the just
opened document (typically UIA browse mode implementations in
Chromium
Edge) or ask a DLL that ships with NVDA to gather info on the fly
(Firefox is a good example of this).
4. Whatever method is chosen, NVDA will read the document from top to
bottom, constructing NVDA objects to represent elements found in the
web document. At the same time, texts coming from these web elements
are gathered into a single browse mode document (tree interceptor in
some cases) to facilitate navigation, first letter commands, NVDA
find, elements list and a whole host of features.



As for NVDA find command, NVDA will search text of the browse mode
document (stored internally) and will place the cursor at the next
occurrence of the searched term.

P.S. Marco, if you are here, may I ask if you can shed some light on
browse mode/tree interceptor internals? I can speak of what NVDA does
at the high level.

Cheers,

Joseph





From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian
Vogel
Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2021 8:27 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Find On Page



Bob,

Before I start even trying to explain this, it would be
helpful to know what browser or browsers you and Glenn are using and
where either one of these finds is not working.

I am going to try to make the distinction between a
browser find and a screen reader find (and it doesn't matter whether
it's JAWS or NVDA) as simple as I can. I can assure you that I will
be omitting scads of "under the hood" detail that someone far more
knowledgeable about both browser internals and NVDA internals can
delve in to if they so choose.

A browser find focuses on what can be seen on a page
that's a part of the page text. That is generally limited to actual
text as well as text used for click-through links and labels. But
text on controls, like buttons, checkboxes, etc., will very often not
be found using a browser find. Much of this depends on how sloppy
the page coders have been about how certain controls are written and
what's exposed to a browser find versus a screen reader find. I also
believe that a browser find does not examine the virtual cursor used
by the screen reader while a screen reader find does just that.

As a result, there can be differences in not only what
can be found by either one, but exactly where the screen reader focus
is after each is done.

I tend to favor the screen reader find when someone's
using a screen reader simply because it tends to find certain things
that a browser find doesn't, and you more often have focus on the
thing just found, consistently, with a screen reader find.

I'm actually hoping someone with way more "under the hood"
knowledge will chime in and probably bore some of us silly getting
into the actual differences between how a browser find and screen
reader find works and can explain the discrepancies not only in what
each can find but in where focus lies after each. I have never been
able to come up with any precise way of describing what's different
between the two.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win
unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself.

~ Richard M. Nixon




















Re: Find On Page

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Bob,

I believe System Access did what JAWS does.

If you press Control F in JAWS and virtual cursor is on, JAWS assumes a JAWS find. So if you really did want to do the browser's version of find, you'd have to turn off the virtual cursor in JAWS.

You can see this, because JAWS says the words JAWS find when the dialogue comes up.

NVDA on the other hand behaves in my view better, because it doesn't make that assumption.

All the best

Steve

--
To subscribe to our News and Special Offers list, go to https://www.comproom.co.uk/subscribe

Computer Room Services
77 Exeter Close
Stevenage
Hertfordshire
SG1 4PW
T: +44(0)1438-742286
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-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Cavanaugh
Sent: 09 April 2021 19:46
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Find On Page

That was a much more technical answer than I was looking for, but between yours and Brian's, I think I understand. In the case of controls with no actual text that NVDA has to extract, I completely understand where the NVDA find could be useful. That being said though, is the fact that NVDA actually uses a virtual cursor in browse mode the reason the control+F command never works, even when searching for plain text? I doubt I'll ever find out for sure, but Joseph, your programming knowledge may shed some light into how System Access possibly worked when it comes to this issue. Because I used that screen reader the most, it's where I have most of my experience finding things, and control+F worked. I would imagine it had to have some form of browse Vs. focus mode, but the end user never had to choose because every time it encountered an input, particularly an edit field, it automatically switched. That could be annoying at times as I had to tab out of an edit field before I could navigate to the next one, but it also helped at times, as there was one site I had to use when I was in school where both NVDA and JAWS automatically went into focus mode upon logging in, which made navigating by the quick keys I was used to impossible, but it wasn't an issue at all with System Access.

On 4/8/21, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,

I guess I need to go deeper into the layered design I mentioned in my
last reply (the best person to explain the browser side of things is
Marco Zehe from Mozilla Foundation):

To let NVDA navigate a website as though you are reading a document,
NVDA employs what’s called a “tree interceptor”. A tree interceptor is
a collection of elements that act like one large text area. Because a
tree interceptor is a collection of elements and texts coming from
these, it can include hundreds of different controls of varying roles
(straight text, form fields, links, frames, web apps, video players,
you name it). Using a tree to describe a complex control such as a web
document is quite an interesting approach – after all, graphical user
interface elements are organized like a tree or branches, with web
documents consisting of a collection of smaller elements (and this is
how HTML and ARIA coding is actually rendered on screen).

But tree interceptors are not enough. NVDA relies on three more
materials to create a completely functioning browse mode
implementation: virtual buffers, accessibility API’s, and a cursor
manager (there are other elements involved, but these three are
essential). Virtual buffers create building blocks for documents.
Accessibility API’s and standards such as IAccessible and ARIA (Accessible Rich Internet Applications) enhance the “look and feel”
of a browse mode document. Finally, cursor managers provide commands
to move around the just created browse mode document.

The steps NVDA takes when creating a browse mode document are as follows:

1. You start a web browser. NVDA can then load appropriate support modules
based on the browser you are using.
2. You open a new website.
3. When NVDA detects that a new page is open, NVDA will either use API’s
provided by the web browser to gather information about the just
opened document (typically UIA browse mode implementations in Chromium
Edge) or ask a DLL that ships with NVDA to gather info on the fly
(Firefox is a good example of this).
4. Whatever method is chosen, NVDA will read the document from top to
bottom, constructing NVDA objects to represent elements found in the
web document. At the same time, texts coming from these web elements
are gathered into a single browse mode document (tree interceptor in
some cases) to facilitate navigation, first letter commands, NVDA
find, elements list and a whole host of features.



As for NVDA find command, NVDA will search text of the browse mode
document (stored internally) and will place the cursor at the next
occurrence of the searched term.

P.S. Marco, if you are here, may I ask if you can shed some light on
browse mode/tree interceptor internals? I can speak of what NVDA does
at the high level.

Cheers,

Joseph





From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian
Vogel
Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2021 8:27 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Find On Page



Bob,

Before I start even trying to explain this, it would be
helpful to know what browser or browsers you and Glenn are using and
where either one of these finds is not working.

I am going to try to make the distinction between a browser
find and a screen reader find (and it doesn't matter whether it's JAWS
or NVDA) as simple as I can. I can assure you that I will be omitting
scads of "under the hood" detail that someone far more knowledgeable
about both browser internals and NVDA internals can delve in to if they so choose.

A browser find focuses on what can be seen on a page
that's a part of the page text. That is generally limited to actual
text as well as text used for click-through links and labels. But
text on controls, like buttons, checkboxes, etc., will very often not
be found using a browser find. Much of this depends on how sloppy the
page coders have been about how certain controls are written and
what's exposed to a browser find versus a screen reader find. I also
believe that a browser find does not examine the virtual cursor used
by the screen reader while a screen reader find does just that.

As a result, there can be differences in not only what
can be found by either one, but exactly where the screen reader focus
is after each is done.

I tend to favor the screen reader find when someone's
using a screen reader simply because it tends to find certain things
that a browser find doesn't, and you more often have focus on the
thing just found, consistently, with a screen reader find.

I'm actually hoping someone with way more "under the hood"
knowledge will chime in and probably bore some of us silly getting
into the actual differences between how a browser find and screen
reader find works and can explain the discrepancies not only in what
each can find but in where focus lies after each. I have never been
able to come up with any precise way of describing what's different between the two.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win
unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself.

~ Richard M. Nixon











Re: strange problem with a PDF

Andre Fisher
 

Hi.

There are two possibilities:
1. You have created either a configuration for Firefox or Acrobat Reader with different speech settings.
2. Language detection in the file is working in Acrobat Reader, but in Firefox it is not.

Try turning off automatic language detection in the Speech settings and report back.


Re: strange problem with a PDF

Luke Davis
 

Try going to speech settings (NVDA+control+s). Tab over to Automatic dialect switching, and un-check it.

If it already is, try un-checking automatic language switching.

With one or the other or both unchecked, press enter, and try your document again.

Luke

On Apr 15, Bob Cavanaugh wrote:

I just downloaded the first statement for my Able account, and it read
quite weird. My default voice is E-Speak Male7 with the American
accent, but when opening my statement in Adobe Acrobat Reader, it read
with what sounded like the default British voice, or at least the
Male7 British voice I'm not sure which. When I opened the same file in
Firefox, it read as normal. Any idea why this could be happening, or


Re: reading pdf files

Timothy VD Berg
 

Hi
Would it maybe a scaned document?
Thanks
Timothy

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Cavanaugh
Sent: Thursday, 15 April 2021 19:52
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] reading pdf files

You are absolutely right Brian, this likely has more to do with the document in question than with NVDA. I've had this happen as well with Acrobat Reader. As I don't deal with PDF files all that often, I can't think of when it happened last time, but I'm pretty sure I have some files on my computer where this happens.


strange problem with a PDF

Bob Cavanaugh <cavbob1993@...>
 

Hi all,
I just downloaded the first statement for my Able account, and it read
quite weird. My default voice is E-Speak Male7 with the American
accent, but when opening my statement in Adobe Acrobat Reader, it read
with what sounded like the default British voice, or at least the
Male7 British voice I'm not sure which. When I opened the same file in
Firefox, it read as normal. Any idea why this could be happening, or
does someone need the document?
Bob


Re: Windows magnifier add on for nvda

Sascha Cowley
 

I have used this add-on. Unfortunately, I cannot recommend it, as it makes both NVDA and Windows Magnifier rather sluggish on both the machines I tested it on. Both were running Windows 10, but I imagine the add-on would work on Windows 8, and possibly even 7 (I believe the base Magnifier infrastructure hasn't changed since then, though I am not certain).

Also, note that it's not listed as being compatible with NVDA 2020.4. While it did work when I just installed it to make sure I had the same experience as previously, during installation, NVDA informed me that the add-on failed to install and I had to restart NVDA to get the installation progress dialog to go away. Upon restarting, the add-on had installed, though I'm not sure if this issue had any effect on the performance of the add-on, NVDA, or Windows Magnifier.

I may take a look at the source code of the add-on at some point to see if I am able to improve it, as it is something I would find useful as well.


Re: NVDA Speech Dict: Match pattern after line of certain pattern

Luke Davis
 

William wrote:

If I want to configure NVDA speech dict to match pattern that occur after certain patter of line, is it possible?
No.

While regular expressions are capable of this, NVDA is not, because of how it processes dictionaries.

I wrote a test file:

test1
test2
test3

And did a say-all on it.
This, from the log, is how NVDA processes that event:

Input: kb(desktop):NVDA+downArrow
Speaking [CallbackCommand(name=say-all:lineReached), 'test1\r\n', CallbackCommand(name=say-all:lineReached), 'test2\r\n', CallbackCommand(name=say-all:lineReached), 'test3\r\n', CallbackCommand(name=say-all:lineReached)]

Ignoring the stuff not in single quotes, you can see that each line is handled, and therefore processed, separately.
It is little different than using your arrow key to read the text line by line.

You could commission someone to write an add-on for you to do this if you really need it, but NVDA can't do it by default.

Luke

"In this life there are obstacles, and forces who overcome obstacles. You can be either one or the other.
If you refuse to even try to clear an obstacle, you become the obstacle."
- Joel Shepherd


Re: Windows magnifier add on for nvda

hurrikennyandopo ...
 

I forgot to add in the link to the page where the add on is at present it can be found at https://addons.nvda-project.org/addons/windowsMagnifier.en.html <https://addons.nvda-project.org/addons/windowsMagnifier.en.html>

Gene nz

On 16/04/2021 11:09 am, hurrikennyandopo ... wrote:
Hi guys


I have been asked about this add on for nvda.


The question is which operating system will it work on windows 8 or 10? I was also wondering if the add on works quite well why is it not in the stable main page is it still been worked on?

Has any one else used it? and does it work good on there machine? I have not got enough sight to see the screen but it is for a person with low vision.


Gene nz






Windows magnifier add on for nvda

hurrikennyandopo ...
 

Hi guys


I have been asked about this add on for nvda.


The question is which operating system will it work on windows 8 or 10? I was also wondering if the add on works quite well why is it not in the stable main page is it still been worked on?

Has any one else used it? and does it work good on there machine? I have not got enough sight to see the screen but it is for a person with low vision.


Gene nz


Checking out a transcription editor with NVDA

Janet Brandly
 

Hello all,

 

I am looking for someone who would be willing to dig into a transcription editor with NVDA. I cannot get the text/edit box to work properly-I cannot read and edit what I have written. There are keyboard shortcuts to operate the player. If someone is interested, I will send you the link to the practice files. This is to prepare for a transcription test for a company I would like to work with. Please le me know and provide your private email address.

 

Thank you,

 

Janet


Re: reporting word number automatically.

farhan israk
 

Thanks to all.


On Thu, 15 Apr 2021, 10:25 pm Brian Vogel, <britechguy@...> wrote:
And as a side note, ALT+R,W, suggested by Ms. Byrne, and CTRL+SHIFT+G, suggested by Mr. Moxey, both bring up the same Word Count dialog.

The difference is the first throws focus to the review ribbon, and activates the Word Count option, and once you exit the Word Count dialog the Review Ribbon is what's still active.  The second just invokes the Word Count dialog no matter what ribbon happens to be on display and doesn't change it.  When you close afer CTRL+SHIFT+G whatever ribbon had been active before hitting that command remains active.  Using either still leaves your insertion point in the document wherever it had been immediately prior to your having invoked the dialog.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them.  And then you destroy yourself.

       ~ Richard M. Nixon

 


Re: reading pdf files

Bob Cavanaugh <cavbob1993@...>
 

You are absolutely right Brian, this likely has more to do with the
document in question than with NVDA. I've had this happen as well with
Acrobat Reader. As I don't deal with PDF files all that often, I can't
think of when it happened last time, but I'm pretty sure I have some
files on my computer where this happens.

On 4/15/21, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
This is another query where way more information is needed before any
potential assistant could try to replicate and comment:
1. Reading program being used.
2. PDF file itself, if accessible/downloadable to the general public
are the two items that are absolutely essential.

As Luke Davis has observed, you (any you) really need to try reading the PDF
in question using another reading program, preferably two additional reading
programs, just to determine whether the behavior is consistent across all
reading programs you try.  If it is, the probability is that there is an
issue with the PDF itself.

NVDA really has little to do, directly, with the "mechanics" of a PDF file.
Its encoding is outside the scope of NVDA and the screen reader justs
requests that the given file be read and takes what the PDF reading program
hands to it.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless
you hate them.  And then you destroy yourself.

~ Richard M. Nixon






ScreenReaderUser Survey— Tweet by MSFT Accessibility on Twitter

Laurie Mehta
 


Re: NVDA Speech Dict: Match pattern after line of certain pattern

 

Subject update for clarity.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them.  And then you destroy yourself.

       ~ Richard M. Nixon

 


Re: NVDA Speech Dict: Match pattern after line of certain pattern

 

Trying to match across line breaks is tricky, but it can be done.  The question is, given your example, if there were more items listed on individual lines below "An apple" would you be looking for those, too?

It's much easier to discuss this if you give an actual example of the data you're trying to work on, taken straight from its source, and can describe what it is that you are hoping will happen when processing it.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them.  And then you destroy yourself.

       ~ Richard M. Nixon

 


Re: reporting word number automatically.

 

And as a side note, ALT+R,W, suggested by Ms. Byrne, and CTRL+SHIFT+G, suggested by Mr. Moxey, both bring up the same Word Count dialog.

The difference is the first throws focus to the review ribbon, and activates the Word Count option, and once you exit the Word Count dialog the Review Ribbon is what's still active.  The second just invokes the Word Count dialog no matter what ribbon happens to be on display and doesn't change it.  When you close afer CTRL+SHIFT+G whatever ribbon had been active before hitting that command remains active.  Using either still leaves your insertion point in the document wherever it had been immediately prior to your having invoked the dialog.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them.  And then you destroy yourself.

       ~ Richard M. Nixon

 

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