Date   
Re: Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

Steve Nutt
 

That’s more hard work though, as well as concentrating on the text itself for mistakes, I’d say.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 17 February 2019 19:33
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

By context a lot of the time.  if not, they will know a word is missing because what is being said won't make sense.  At that point, you can go back and read the word by letter.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

 

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 1:12 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

But how would they know the word was missing, if the synth didn’t utter anything?

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 17 February 2019 19:01
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

Yes, it would be skipped.  Most people wouldn't come across the word often in documents and they have to remember that they won't hear it.  They can read letter by letter at the missing word location to verify that it is that word if they wish.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 12:53 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

Hi Jean,

 

What happens then if you come across the word graphic in a document?  Does it just get missed out?  That would make it awkward for proofing.  I don’t like using dictionaries as a cludge if I’m honest.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 16 February 2019 13:24
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

If this setting isn't available in preferences, and I am not aware of a do not announce graphics setting, you may be able to stop graphic from being announced using the speech dictionary.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 5:46 AM

Subject: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

To all members
Does NVDA has feature to ignore graphic while navigating web page, and if it has, now to enable it?
A friend asked me this, and he shared him thought that sometimes he doesn't want to see graphics in article he reading, and he wonder if we could add this to NVDA if it doesn't exist. I can also create a tiket for this if noone did before.
Any help would be appreciated.
Cuong

----------------
Dang Manh Cuong
 The Assistive technology specialist
 Sao Mai Vocational and assistive center for the blind
52/22 Huynh Thien Loc St., Hoa Thanh ward, Tan Phu dist., HCM, Vietnam.
 Tel: +8428 7302-4488
 E-mail: info@...; tech@...
 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/saomaicenterfortheblind
 Website: http://www.trungtamsaomai.org; http://www.saomaicenter.org
Mobile / Viber / WhatsApp / Zalo: +84 902-572-300
 E-mail: dangmanhcuong@...; cuong@...
 Skype name: dangmanhcuong
 facebook: http://facebook.com/dangmanhcuong
 Twitter: @ManhCuongTech
NVDA Certified Expert: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

Re: CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Joseph,

 

I’ll go through the menus over the next few days and try to make some useful suggestions.

 

I think the input thing is the most difficult to understand though, and so easy to miss the fact that it has keyboard entries in there too.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: 17 February 2019 19:22
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

 

Hi,

I’m interested in seeing which parts of the NVDA’s user interface appears to be difficult for everyday users. That way, we can figure out what can be done to improve it rather than pass on our own experiences alone.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 11:12 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

 

Hi Brian,

 

I agree with you completely about programmers not really able to document.

 

Even the menu structure of NVDA that we’re talking about, was given little consideration in terms of non-geek terminology.  Writing menus, is the same in a way, as writing documentation, the menus need to be intuitive at the outset, or people won’t find or use your feature set.

 

All the best

 

STeve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 17 February 2019 18:07
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

 

On Sun, Feb 17, 2019 at 12:52 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

To me, saying that programmers should not write manuals robs them of a valuable educational opportunity to communicate (I am a programmer and do write documentation).

And, to me, having been a programmer and having written documentation (that most people seem to like), I'd say that if you have no real ability to write to begin with you should not be writing documentation.  Or if you (any you, not you, Joseph) are writing it you had better be ready to subject it to editorial review by someone known to be skilled in the area.

Most programmers are horrific writers and, even worse, consider documentation to be useless grunt work.  And I'll never change that opinion based on decades of direct experience.

It's not that there are not exceptions, but that's what they are:  exceptions.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 

Re: CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

 

On Sun, Feb 17, 2019 at 02:12 PM, Steve Nutt wrote:
Writing menus, is the same in a way, as writing documentation, the menus need to be intuitive at the outset, or people won’t find or use your feature set.
Now I'll play contrarian, at least in part.   I agree that pretty much all of the "common" and/or "commonly tweaked" settings need to be front and center and named in such a way that the average user in your target demographic will apprehend their meaning upon encountering them.  That part is not rocket science.

At the same time, any complex piece of software, and screen readers are incredibly complex pieces of software, it is impossible for a great deal of what's in settings to be intuitive to the average user.   If you have something that's even vaguely approachable in that way, you generally have something that's got a lot of defaults that cannot be tweaked and that many special-needs users (and I mean for specific computing niches and vocational niches - which use software over which the screen reader will be overlaid that's out of the ordinary) end up stuck.

For something like a screen reader to be exquisitely configurable, there will be huge swaths of the total settings structure that will not, in any way, be immediately obvious not only to the average user, but even to the quite sophisticated user.   Most of the sorts of tweaks for very focused refinement in a given setting require either someone intimately familiar with things "deep under the hood" in the software or willing to become so in the zones they need to change.

A good analogy would be expecting your average driver to be able to understand and actually maintain every aspect of their cars.  That age passed a very, very long time ago.  But virtually any driver can get in any car and get from point A to point B based on the well-known commonalities in the technology.  And that's even if you get into a vehicle with things labeled in an entirely different language (which in the age of icons is increasingly rare, too).
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 

Re: Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

Gene
 

By context a lot of the time.  if not, they will know a word is missing because what is being said won't make sense.  At that point, you can go back and read the word by letter.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

But how would they know the word was missing, if the synth didn’t utter anything?

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 17 February 2019 19:01
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

Yes, it would be skipped.  Most people wouldn't come across the word often in documents and they have to remember that they won't hear it.  They can read letter by letter at the missing word location to verify that it is that word if they wish.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 12:53 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

Hi Jean,

 

What happens then if you come across the word graphic in a document?  Does it just get missed out?  That would make it awkward for proofing.  I don’t like using dictionaries as a cludge if I’m honest.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 16 February 2019 13:24
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

If this setting isn't available in preferences, and I am not aware of a do not announce graphics setting, you may be able to stop graphic from being announced using the speech dictionary.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 5:46 AM

Subject: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

To all members
Does NVDA has feature to ignore graphic while navigating web page, and if it has, now to enable it?
A friend asked me this, and he shared him thought that sometimes he doesn't want to see graphics in article he reading, and he wonder if we could add this to NVDA if it doesn't exist. I can also create a tiket for this if noone did before.
Any help would be appreciated.
Cuong

----------------
Dang Manh Cuong
 The Assistive technology specialist
 Sao Mai Vocational and assistive center for the blind
52/22 Huynh Thien Loc St., Hoa Thanh ward, Tan Phu dist., HCM, Vietnam.
 Tel: +8428 7302-4488
 E-mail: info@...; tech@...
 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/saomaicenterfortheblind
 Website: http://www.trungtamsaomai.org; http://www.saomaicenter.org
Mobile / Viber / WhatsApp / Zalo: +84 902-572-300
 E-mail: dangmanhcuong@...; cuong@...
 Skype name: dangmanhcuong
 facebook: http://facebook.com/dangmanhcuong
 Twitter: @ManhCuongTech
NVDA Certified Expert: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

Re: Just testing

 

Hi, the reason for this test is, I received an email just now telling me that one my emails was marked as spam and I should try to subscribe again after 7 days.
As it clearly was a mistake, I'm sending to the lists that I'm into test emails to see if I keep on there.

Cheers,
Marcio
Follow me on Twitter

Em 17/02/2019 16:25, marcio via Groups.Io escreveu:


--

Cheers,
Marcio
Follow me on Twitter


Just testing

 


--

Cheers,
Marcio
Follow me on Twitter

Re: CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

 

Hi,

I’m interested in seeing which parts of the NVDA’s user interface appears to be difficult for everyday users. That way, we can figure out what can be done to improve it rather than pass on our own experiences alone.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 11:12 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

 

Hi Brian,

 

I agree with you completely about programmers not really able to document.

 

Even the menu structure of NVDA that we’re talking about, was given little consideration in terms of non-geek terminology.  Writing menus, is the same in a way, as writing documentation, the menus need to be intuitive at the outset, or people won’t find or use your feature set.

 

All the best

 

STeve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 17 February 2019 18:07
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

 

On Sun, Feb 17, 2019 at 12:52 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

To me, saying that programmers should not write manuals robs them of a valuable educational opportunity to communicate (I am a programmer and do write documentation).

And, to me, having been a programmer and having written documentation (that most people seem to like), I'd say that if you have no real ability to write to begin with you should not be writing documentation.  Or if you (any you, not you, Joseph) are writing it you had better be ready to subject it to editorial review by someone known to be skilled in the area.

Most programmers are horrific writers and, even worse, consider documentation to be useless grunt work.  And I'll never change that opinion based on decades of direct experience.

It's not that there are not exceptions, but that's what they are:  exceptions.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 

Re: CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

 

Hi,

At some point, in addition to bringing up terminology issues with other developers, I’ll go over the user guide (for the umpteenth time) and bring up parts that could lead to misunderstandings like our discussion on gestures versus commands, inclusion of touch commands and so on (all via GitHub; this reminds me: I need to purchase an updated version of Basic Training module to see if it is simpler than user guide we have).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of hurrikennyandopo ...
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 11:15 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

 

Hi

 

I am guessing the touch commands are the etc in the input gestures section. it does not mention touch at all only keyboard and braille but should be updated to say also touch.

 

Gene nz

 

On 17/02/2019 11:42 PM, marcio via Groups.Io wrote:

Actually, I always found it too strange that this option was called "gestures", simply because, for me,  it means what it would mean out of the computer/programming world.
That is, a gesture is a gesture, isn't it? So I'm thinking, well here we should have the touch commands, why are the keyboard ones here as well?
And I'm into geeky stuff, sometimes dare myself programming some small things. I hope I'm not the only one geek with this understanding of things!


Cheers,
Marcio
Follow me on Twitter

Em 17/02/2019 06:37, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io escreveu:

I think the issue though is when you see the word Gesture, you may not understand it as anything but a physical motion, ie making a rude sign or whatever, Its not universally known by this name for interaction with anything but touch sscreens based on my unscientific  study of half a dozen blind computer users!

A headinglike  keyboard, mouse and touch gestures for NVDA might explain it better.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Westerland" <iwesterl@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION




Another way around the issue might be to define what the word means in
context so "gesture" could be used within the contextual definition.
Just a thought.


Ian Westerland





On 2/16/2019 10:51 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:

Yes we need a whole new word or phrase.
How about user input schemes or something like that?
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Bartholomew" <rlbart53@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 10:16 AM
Subject: [nvda] CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION



Hi,

The underlying explanation of what input gestures are is excellent and
understandable; however, for me, the issue isn't semantics per se but if the
top-level description isn't immediately obvious to the end-user, it has
failed in some way. In this case, the word gesture implies touch screens
and, so, discouraged me from finding the time to delve into an area which I
thought wasn't relevant to me. A personal failing I admit but we all have
demands upon our time so if we can weed out what we think are unnecessary
diversions, it's often the pragmatic way to go!

I accept that this whole area is a minefield as you can please some of the
people, some of the time, etc, etc, etc!

Good luck!

Richard Bartholomew















 

--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net
 
Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which location (or locations) are nearest to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa).
To find out which software is installed on the APNK network please visit the following link http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.info/faq/software To find out how to use NVDA on APNK computers please visit the following link http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.info/faq/nvda
 

To find out which software is available on the Christchurch City Library network, and how to start the NVDA screen reader, please go to the following links. Software available  https://my.christchurchcitylibraries.com/faq/computers/#faq_5884  How to start the NVDA screen reader on Christchurch City Library computers  https://my.christchurchcitylibraries.com/faqs/what-screen-reader-software-is-available/
 
To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: Some mouse navigation questions

 

Hi,

At least it is separated in terms of how it is presented (multiple entries for the same command description, each of which have different commands assigned; this is on JAWS 2019). But the fact that all of these are stored inside one file (a .jkm file) demonstrates the fact that, when it comes to managing commands, JAWS and NVDA are taking the same approach (NVDA stores custom command assignments inside a file named gestures.ini, or for other languages, gestures_lang.ini where “lang” is the language code).

Ultimately, it comes down to terminology and philosophy employed (being discussed on another thread). It is true that different screen readers have different terms for the same thing; what’s more important is what’s under the surface (procedures and assumptions) given appropriate training.

I’ll bring up terminology issue with other NVDA developers (via GitHub) soon.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 11:09 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

 

Hi,

 

Yes, JAWS does separate them.  I’m surprised this wasn’t done at the offset.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: 17 February 2019 17:51
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

 

Hi,

It is the same situation as JAWS’s keyboard manager (at least in the old days) where you had commands for keyboards, braille displays, and alike.

As for an explanation as to why it might not be separated for a while, see my post on road travel analogy.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 4:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

 

Hi jean,

 

I think maybe they should be separated.  Keyboard Commands, Touch Gestures, not all lumped into one.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 16 February 2019 00:39
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

 

The problem is, what should this array of ways of input be called?  Maybe input commands, which would cover everything.  This is just one more example of the decline of English.  Apps and applications, two different things, are used increasingly interchangeably.  the language in general is becoming less precise and accurate and this is just one area.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, February 15, 2019 6:15 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

 

On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 07:06 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Input gestures are more abstract

Which is precisely the problem.  Callin something that is intimately familiar to the typical end user, and when it's currently the only method (regardless of keyboard being used), something "more abstract" is not the way to go. 

The folks at NV Access are far from the only software developers to go this route.   Almost every time it's the route taken it makes things more opaque to the target demographic, which is why it should be avoided in the first place.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 

Re: CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

hurrikennyandopo ...
 

Hi


I am guessing the touch commands are the etc in the input gestures section. it does not mention touch at all only keyboard and braille but should be updated to say also touch.


Gene nz


On 17/02/2019 11:42 PM, marcio via Groups.Io wrote:
Actually, I always found it too strange that this option was called "gestures", simply because, for me,  it means what it would mean out of the computer/programming world.
That is, a gesture is a gesture, isn't it? So I'm thinking, well here we should have the touch commands, why are the keyboard ones here as well?
And I'm into geeky stuff, sometimes dare myself programming some small things. I hope I'm not the only one geek with this understanding of things!

Cheers,
Marcio
Follow me on Twitter

Em 17/02/2019 06:37, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io escreveu:
I think the issue though is when you see the word Gesture, you may not understand it as anything but a physical motion, ie making a rude sign or whatever, Its not universally known by this name for interaction with anything but touch sscreens based on my unscientific  study of half a dozen blind computer users!

A headinglike  keyboard, mouse and touch gestures for NVDA might explain it better.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Westerland" <iwesterl@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION




Another way around the issue might be to define what the word means in
context so "gesture" could be used within the contextual definition.
Just a thought.


Ian Westerland





On 2/16/2019 10:51 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
Yes we need a whole new word or phrase.
How about user input schemes or something like that?
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Bartholomew" <rlbart53@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 10:16 AM
Subject: [nvda] CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION


Hi,

The underlying explanation of what input gestures are is excellent and
understandable; however, for me, the issue isn't semantics per se but if the
top-level description isn't immediately obvious to the end-user, it has
failed in some way. In this case, the word gesture implies touch screens
and, so, discouraged me from finding the time to delve into an area which I
thought wasn't relevant to me. A personal failing I admit but we all have
demands upon our time so if we can weed out what we think are unnecessary
diversions, it's often the pragmatic way to go!

I accept that this whole area is a minefield as you can please some of the
people, some of the time, etc, etc, etc!

Good luck!

Richard Bartholomew



















--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net
 
Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which location (or locations) are nearest to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa).
To find out which software is installed on the APNK network please visit the following link http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.info/faq/software To find out how to use NVDA on APNK computers please visit the following link http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.info/faq/nvda
 

To find out which software is available on the Christchurch City Library network, and how to start the NVDA screen reader, please go to the following links. Software available  https://my.christchurchcitylibraries.com/faq/computers/#faq_5884  How to start the NVDA screen reader on Christchurch City Library computers  https://my.christchurchcitylibraries.com/faqs/what-screen-reader-software-is-available/
 
To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

Re: Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

Steve Nutt
 

But how would they know the word was missing, if the synth didn’t utter anything?

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 17 February 2019 19:01
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

Yes, it would be skipped.  Most people wouldn't come across the word often in documents and they have to remember that they won't hear it.  They can read letter by letter at the missing word location to verify that it is that word if they wish.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 12:53 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

Hi Jean,

 

What happens then if you come across the word graphic in a document?  Does it just get missed out?  That would make it awkward for proofing.  I don’t like using dictionaries as a cludge if I’m honest.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 16 February 2019 13:24
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

If this setting isn't available in preferences, and I am not aware of a do not announce graphics setting, you may be able to stop graphic from being announced using the speech dictionary.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 5:46 AM

Subject: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

To all members
Does NVDA has feature to ignore graphic while navigating web page, and if it has, now to enable it?
A friend asked me this, and he shared him thought that sometimes he doesn't want to see graphics in article he reading, and he wonder if we could add this to NVDA if it doesn't exist. I can also create a tiket for this if noone did before.
Any help would be appreciated.
Cuong

----------------
Dang Manh Cuong
 The Assistive technology specialist
 Sao Mai Vocational and assistive center for the blind
52/22 Huynh Thien Loc St., Hoa Thanh ward, Tan Phu dist., HCM, Vietnam.
 Tel: +8428 7302-4488
 E-mail: info@...; tech@...
 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/saomaicenterfortheblind
 Website: http://www.trungtamsaomai.org; http://www.saomaicenter.org
Mobile / Viber / WhatsApp / Zalo: +84 902-572-300
 E-mail: dangmanhcuong@...; cuong@...
 Skype name: dangmanhcuong
 facebook: http://facebook.com/dangmanhcuong
 Twitter: @ManhCuongTech
NVDA Certified Expert: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

Re: CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Brian,

 

I agree with you completely about programmers not really able to document.

 

Even the menu structure of NVDA that we’re talking about, was given little consideration in terms of non-geek terminology.  Writing menus, is the same in a way, as writing documentation, the menus need to be intuitive at the outset, or people won’t find or use your feature set.

 

All the best

 

STeve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 17 February 2019 18:07
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

 

On Sun, Feb 17, 2019 at 12:52 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

To me, saying that programmers should not write manuals robs them of a valuable educational opportunity to communicate (I am a programmer and do write documentation).

And, to me, having been a programmer and having written documentation (that most people seem to like), I'd say that if you have no real ability to write to begin with you should not be writing documentation.  Or if you (any you, not you, Joseph) are writing it you had better be ready to subject it to editorial review by someone known to be skilled in the area.

Most programmers are horrific writers and, even worse, consider documentation to be useless grunt work.  And I'll never change that opinion based on decades of direct experience.

It's not that there are not exceptions, but that's what they are:  exceptions.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 

Re: Some mouse navigation questions

Steve Nutt
 

Hi,

 

Yes, JAWS does separate them.  I’m surprised this wasn’t done at the offset.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: 17 February 2019 17:51
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

 

Hi,

It is the same situation as JAWS’s keyboard manager (at least in the old days) where you had commands for keyboards, braille displays, and alike.

As for an explanation as to why it might not be separated for a while, see my post on road travel analogy.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 4:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

 

Hi jean,

 

I think maybe they should be separated.  Keyboard Commands, Touch Gestures, not all lumped into one.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 16 February 2019 00:39
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

 

The problem is, what should this array of ways of input be called?  Maybe input commands, which would cover everything.  This is just one more example of the decline of English.  Apps and applications, two different things, are used increasingly interchangeably.  the language in general is becoming less precise and accurate and this is just one area.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, February 15, 2019 6:15 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

 

On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 07:06 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Input gestures are more abstract

Which is precisely the problem.  Callin something that is intimately familiar to the typical end user, and when it's currently the only method (regardless of keyboard being used), something "more abstract" is not the way to go. 

The folks at NV Access are far from the only software developers to go this route.   Almost every time it's the route taken it makes things more opaque to the target demographic, which is why it should be avoided in the first place.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 

Re: Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

Gene
 

Yes, it would be skipped.  Most people wouldn't come across the word often in documents and they have to remember that they won't hear it.  They can read letter by letter at the missing word location to verify that it is that word if they wish.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 12:53 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

Hi Jean,

 

What happens then if you come across the word graphic in a document?  Does it just get missed out?  That would make it awkward for proofing.  I don’t like using dictionaries as a cludge if I’m honest.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 16 February 2019 13:24
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

If this setting isn't available in preferences, and I am not aware of a do not announce graphics setting, you may be able to stop graphic from being announced using the speech dictionary.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 5:46 AM

Subject: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

To all members
Does NVDA has feature to ignore graphic while navigating web page, and if it has, now to enable it?
A friend asked me this, and he shared him thought that sometimes he doesn't want to see graphics in article he reading, and he wonder if we could add this to NVDA if it doesn't exist. I can also create a tiket for this if noone did before.
Any help would be appreciated.
Cuong

----------------
Dang Manh Cuong
 The Assistive technology specialist
 Sao Mai Vocational and assistive center for the blind
52/22 Huynh Thien Loc St., Hoa Thanh ward, Tan Phu dist., HCM, Vietnam.
 Tel: +8428 7302-4488
 E-mail: info@...; tech@...
 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/saomaicenterfortheblind
 Website: http://www.trungtamsaomai.org; http://www.saomaicenter.org
Mobile / Viber / WhatsApp / Zalo: +84 902-572-300
 E-mail: dangmanhcuong@...; cuong@...
 Skype name: dangmanhcuong
 facebook: http://facebook.com/dangmanhcuong
 Twitter: @ManhCuongTech
NVDA Certified Expert: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

Re: Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Jean,

 

What happens then if you come across the word graphic in a document?  Does it just get missed out?  That would make it awkward for proofing.  I don’t like using dictionaries as a cludge if I’m honest.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 16 February 2019 13:24
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

If this setting isn't available in preferences, and I am not aware of a do not announce graphics setting, you may be able to stop graphic from being announced using the speech dictionary.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 5:46 AM

Subject: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

To all members
Does NVDA has feature to ignore graphic while navigating web page, and if it has, now to enable it?
A friend asked me this, and he shared him thought that sometimes he doesn't want to see graphics in article he reading, and he wonder if we could add this to NVDA if it doesn't exist. I can also create a tiket for this if noone did before.
Any help would be appreciated.
Cuong

----------------
Dang Manh Cuong
 The Assistive technology specialist
 Sao Mai Vocational and assistive center for the blind
52/22 Huynh Thien Loc St., Hoa Thanh ward, Tan Phu dist., HCM, Vietnam.
 Tel: +8428 7302-4488
 E-mail: info@...; tech@...
 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/saomaicenterfortheblind
 Website: http://www.trungtamsaomai.org; http://www.saomaicenter.org
Mobile / Viber / WhatsApp / Zalo: +84 902-572-300
 E-mail: dangmanhcuong@...; cuong@...
 Skype name: dangmanhcuong
 facebook: http://facebook.com/dangmanhcuong
 Twitter: @ManhCuongTech
NVDA Certified Expert: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

Re: CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

Steve Nutt
 

But that means you have to go somewhere to look up what NVDA terms a gesture? No, I think it needs rethinking a bit.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ian Westerland
Sent: 16 February 2019 11:55
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION



Another way around the issue might be to define what the word means in context so "gesture" could be used within the contextual definition.
Just a thought.


Ian Westerland





On 2/16/2019 10:51 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
Yes we need a whole new word or phrase.
How about user input schemes or something like that?
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Bartholomew"
<rlbart53@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 10:16 AM
Subject: [nvda] CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION


Hi,

The underlying explanation of what input gestures are is excellent and
understandable; however, for me, the issue isn't semantics per se but
if the
top-level description isn't immediately obvious to the end-user, it has
failed in some way. In this case, the word gesture implies touch screens
and, so, discouraged me from finding the time to delve into an area
which I
thought wasn't relevant to me. A personal failing I admit but we all
have
demands upon our time so if we can weed out what we think are unnecessary
diversions, it's often the pragmatic way to go!

I accept that this whole area is a minefield as you can please some of
the
people, some of the time, etc, etc, etc!

Good luck!

Richard Bartholomew








Re: CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

Steve Nutt
 

That's even worse. <Smile>. What is a scheme?

I think we need to separate off the input methods. Keyboard, Touch
Gestures, etc.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail
list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 16 February 2019 11:52
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

Yes we need a whole new word or phrase.
How about user input schemes or something like that?
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Bartholomew" <rlbart53@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 10:16 AM
Subject: [nvda] CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION


Hi,

The underlying explanation of what input gestures are is excellent and
understandable; however, for me, the issue isn't semantics per se but if
the
top-level description isn't immediately obvious to the end-user, it has
failed in some way. In this case, the word gesture implies touch screens
and, so, discouraged me from finding the time to delve into an area which
I
thought wasn't relevant to me. A personal failing I admit but we all have
demands upon our time so if we can weed out what we think are unnecessary
diversions, it's often the pragmatic way to go!

I accept that this whole area is a minefield as you can please some of the
people, some of the time, etc, etc, etc!

Good luck!

Richard Bartholomew





Re: Competition was Re: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Brian,

Doesn't audio ducking solve the loud stuff playing problem for you? I know
NVDA does this.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail
list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 16 February 2019 11:50
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: Competition was Re: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do
anything to help?

Well I remember supernova had an ignore changes in an area thing. Problem
is of curse that no two sites put that in the same place.
Another annoyance is sites that immediately start playing loud music when
you go to them.
The thing is that many sighted people no longer want the clever stuff. That
is for presentation web sites not commerce or those in everyday usage, yet
the people writing them seem to apply their skills to creating monsters
rather than usable web sites.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Travis Siegel" <tsiegel@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2019 2:39 PM
Subject: Re: Competition was Re: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do
anything to help?


Heh, you mention accessible web sites, and scrolling text and the
like. I discovered way back in 1996, when I setup my web site for the
first time, that folks aren't interested in plain text if there's a
pretty scrolling banner nearby. I had some javascript on my site
scrolling advertising offers, (yes, even in 1996, pay per click was a
thing), but I took it down after trying to show the site to a library
resulted in the librarian mentioning how cool the scrolling text was,
and not even glancing at the rest of the site. That was my one and
only experience with javascript on my own pages, I refuse to use it
now, and have since that day. Call me what you like, but it's always
been my opinion that the purpose of a web site is to convey
information, and anything that gets in the way of conveying that
information is useless.
NVDA can handle most things, but until we have a way for it to ignore
scrolling banners, I fear our web browsing sessions are doomed to
repeating text that has no bearing on the current page.


Re: CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

 

On Sun, Feb 17, 2019 at 12:52 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
To me, saying that programmers should not write manuals robs them of a valuable educational opportunity to communicate (I am a programmer and do write documentation).
And, to me, having been a programmer and having written documentation (that most people seem to like), I'd say that if you have no real ability to write to begin with you should not be writing documentation.  Or if you (any you, not you, Joseph) are writing it you had better be ready to subject it to editorial review by someone known to be skilled in the area.

Most programmers are horrific writers and, even worse, consider documentation to be useless grunt work.  And I'll never change that opinion based on decades of direct experience.

It's not that there are not exceptions, but that's what they are:  exceptions.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 

Re: Using Office Products with UIA

 

HI,

UIA: UI Automation, an accessibility API (libraries, standards, documentation) used to let assistive technologies communicate with other programs.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Monte Single
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 7:42 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using Office Products with UIA

 

O k.

I have not been following this thread.

What is u I a?

Thanks,

Monte

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Christopher Bartlett
Sent: February-17-19 9:12 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using Office Products with UIA

 

Does this same procedure work for enabling uia in Win 10?

Chris B

 

 

On Sun, Feb 17, 2019 at 5:05 AM Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:

As an aside with this.
 1. if one puts this into the console in a portable version, does this only
apply to that version
2. Should one be able to see any difference in a portable version, given
that it has no access to the  resources being installed gives it?
3. Why when one types the whole thing in can one only see the first part, ie
the first line up to the  end of import config?

4. Given that one cannot see the rest, then does the command really work, or
is there something wrong with the console.
 IE I've tried this on a couple of snaps of recent versions and although
only slight I'd suggest that it  has a beneficial effect on two issues in
windows 7. IE the opened folder announcement works reliable and
More reliable page reading in Firefox when it has to load in a big page.

These may well be just the way things go, but I thought I'd ask as if it
does speed some things up, there might be some kind of speed up in disabling
it for some actions via an app module of some kind if windows 7 is in use.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 6:05 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using Office Products with UIA


Hi,
Before I show you how to do it, I'm going to warn you that, once UIA is
turned off, you may experience oddities. If you feel that NVDA is acting odd
for some reason, and if it turns out turning off UIA is to blame, then you
MUST turn UIA on and NEVER, EVER turn off UIA again (and if you do then ask
for instructions on how to turn off UIA, then I will definitely say, "sorry,
I gave you warnings, but perhaps your heart didn't see it coming").
To toggle UIA support:
1. Press Control+NVDA+Z to open Python Console.
2. Type the following as exactly as I show you:

import config
config.conf["UIA"]["enabled"] = False

3. Press Enter, then press Escape to close, then restart NVDA.
4. To enable UIA, repeat the above steps, but replace "False" with "True".

The above procedure may produce side effects, such as oddities, NVDA
announcing extra things or not announcing things as it should and so on. The
above procedure should NEVER be attempted on Windows 8 and later because
NVDA relies on UIA for crucial tasks such as announcing Start search
suggestions, reading toast notifications, and for Windows 10, making your
lives easier when using various Windows 10 apps (including current iteration
of Microsoft Edge). You are warned.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of zahra
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 9:54 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using Office Products with UIA

hi.
thanks for replying me.
how can i modify configuration file?
i wish to turn off uia in windows 7 if one day i can access a system with
windows 7 and just use msaa on windows 7 like windows xp!
i someday tried windows 7 and i was unsatisfied of uia and wish to have msaa
forever.

On 2/16/19, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:
> Hi,
> You can sort of do this (modifying the configuration file), though I
> can't guarantee if that will resolve all sorts of problems you may
> encounter as a result. For instance, although certain Windows Explorer
> features may become more "usable", it may not solve some problems you
> might be having.
> Also, on a personal note, I wouldn't really count on going back to
> Windows XP days, or for that matter, use that as a justification for
> turning off an accessibility API. As noted by at least two resident
> screen reader trainers (Gene and Brian), for all practical purposes,
> it would be wise to move on from XP if trying to perform certain
> productivity and web browsing tasks (XP was a massive target of a
> ransomware in 2017). Thus, personally, the request to consider turning
> off UIA in favor of MSAA just because of appearance of stability under
> XP is hereby denied (sorry; I do know it will come as not the answer
> you are looking for, but there's nothing I and other NVDA developers can
> do now).
> Cheers,
> Joseph
>
>
> -----Original Message---
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of zahra
> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 8:34 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Using Office Products with UIA
>
> hi joseph.
> i have a question about uia.
> can you please teach me how to disable uia in windows 7 if one day i
> decided to use windows 7 or use a computer of someone who uses windows 7?
> i wish to disable uia in windows 7 and configure nvda to use msaa on
> windows
> 7 as nvda uses msaa on windows xp.
> i really need this change and i am waiting for your help, God bless you!
>
> On 2/16/19, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> At least to answer Robert’s question through this one: no, it won’t
>> be enabled by default, as NVDA developers and some testers found bugs
>> and regressions with UIA on.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Joseph
>>
>>
>>
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Devin
>> Prater
>> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 5:17 PM
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Using Office Products with UIA
>>
>>
>>
>> I agree, this makes reading even complex word documents as quick as
>> reading a mere Notepad window, making Word actually enjoyable to use.
>> I hope that all other Office programs start using this too.
>>
>>
>> Devin Pratersent from Gmail.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 6:17 AM Robert Kingett <kingettr@...
>> <mailto:kingettr@...> > wrote:
>>
>> If this will become a much wanted method of interacting with word,
>> and since Microsoft will continue making better support, shouldn't
>> this be on by default after1901?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> By God,
> were I given all the seven heavens
> with all they contain
> in order that
> I may disobey God
> by depriving an ant
> from the husk of a grain of barley,
> I would not do it.
> imam ali
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali








 

--

Christopher Bartlett