Date   
Re: Announcement of Tracked Changes in Word

Giles Turnbull
 

Oh my, that is an impressively fast response, Quentin! ;) I'm delighted to hear that and look forward to the stable version of 2019.3 :)

Thanks for the info,

Giles

Editing text using NVDA Braille Input

laura.picknell@...
 

Hi all,
Hope I am posting this to the correct place.
I am using a Brailliant with NVDA. When trying to correct a typing error I am unable to do this using the braille display in grade 2.
For example, if I want to type 'make' but type 'cake' by mistake. I use the cursor routing keys to move to the 'c' delete it using backspace and then want to braille the 'm'. However, I cannot get the 'm' to display. It shows on the braille device, however, will not be displayed in Word. And as soon as I move the cursor, the 'm' disappears from the braille display. I understand that in grade 2 you usually have to press space or use punctuation in order for the braille to display on screen. However, is there a way to get around this when editing text?
Thanks,
Laura

Re: NVDA adding and changing settings

Gene
 

Some day, when I get Windows 10 I can see what its like. 
 
Thanks.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 11:05 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

Hi,

Screen review and clipboard history: no, as this is an overlay window.

You can review clipboard history items via object navigation, but that’s not really the way to go for this scenario – you can use arrow keys to review items themselves, similar to how one can browse through emojis in emoji panel portion of modern keyboard. After you arrive at a certain item, you can then use review cursor to review data.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 8:58 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

No, I don't need the details but it is important to know whether, if you go into screen review mode, if you can review the information.  If not, can you stay in object navigation and see everything by moving from object to object?

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 10:52 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,

To clarify: review cursor is bounded by review modes – that is, review scope. By default object review is in use, meaning only the content of the current navigator object (or the control one is interested in) can be navigated. Document review expands this to cover complex documents such as a browse mode document, and screen review is used to review controls on screen.

What the current thread is talking about (or rather, what it has become, I believe) is ability to review contents of clipboard history entry. Without going into too much geeky details, when clipboard history opens, navigator object will be placed in the item if any exist. One can then use review cursor commands (Numpad on desktop, NVDA+Shift+arrows or Control+arrows in laptop layout) to review the content of the current item. Thus by default, with object review, only the content is navigable; one has to use arrow keys to review other history items, and not all situations will let you do that – there are times when arrow keys will not work when it comes to reviewing clipboard history, and this depends on which control one is working with.

Let me know if you need the geeky details – but if and only if I may start a brand new thread for discussing internals of modern keyboard features, since yours truly am in the position to give you a “never seen before” tour i.e. I’m the person who programmed that feature into NVDA back in 2017.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 8:31 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

I don't understand what the review cursor is controlled by the currently active review mode means.  Are you talking about in NVDA itself or something else?  for example, are you saying that in object navigation, you can only review the current object unless you move to another one?  It sounds as though you are saying that when in screen review, you still can't review the entire screen.  I believe I've seen this in some situations but isn't that some sort of limitation or problem with the program you are working with?

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 10:00 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,

Yes – each clipboard history item is an object. And no, review will not let you review the entire screen by default – the review cursor is controlled by the currently active review mode, and in case of some screens (including clipboard history), reviewing the entire screen isn’t possible via review cursor alone.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 7:45 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Are you in the review cursor?  Did you move from object navigation to the review cursor?  If you are in objecgt navigation, you are reviewing the text in one object.  if you are in review cursor, you are reviewing the entire screen.  Judging from your description, each item in the clipboard history is one object.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Gene

 

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 4:52 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,

No. Also note that for multi-line items, Windows (specifically, modern keyboard) may not show all text.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Griffith
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 2:43 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

I don’t appear to be able to do it here, unless I am misunderstanding Review cursor. I have in Desktop layout used numpad 7,9 and numpad + but all I can access is the one line with the NVDA announcement top at the start of the line and bottom at the end of the line.  I have just tried it with several paragraphs copied to the clipboard but can only retrieve the first line of each paragraph.

Are there other key combinations I should be using?

David Griffith

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Joseph Lee
Sent: 10 November 2019 22:12
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,

Actually, you can access multi-line clipboard text via review cursor.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Griffith
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 2:05 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

I agree  it has limited functionality – it also seems to display only one line of a clipboard clip.

However I guess it might be useful in an emergency as you can turn on NVDA’s Speech Viewer to accessibly access  the content displayed. Admittedly I have not  tried this  but 

David Griffith

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io
Sent: 10 November 2019 21:02
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,   I tried the windows v command,   and I did see 2 things but you

can not do anything with it I.E. You can't hit enter on it or do and

application key on it and get choices so really what is the point of it?

 

On 08/11/2019 06:13, Jaffar Sidek wrote:

> Agreed Quentin.  And for all of the issues experienced on the new

> windows update, the windows+V key combo which allows for exploring the

> history of what has been pasted to the clipboard is indeed revolutionary

> in my opinion.  The ability to retrieve one's forgotten word or code or

> password or text at any time cannot be underestimated.  Cheers!

>

> On 11/8/2019 2:04 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:

>> Re copy and paste etc, remember it's not just about being able to tell

>> with relative confidence that something has occurred, but also how

>> much effort it takes to find that out. I know the add-on seems to work

>> pretty well when I've used it, but maybe my machine is faster than

>> average and my tolerance for waiting for something to happen is greater.

>> 

>> For now, the functionality is available in an add-on.  Yes it could be

>> argued to bring it over to core, but then again, that would also take

>> someone's time instead of adding some other feature or fixing some

>> other bug - again, not a reason not to do it, but a reason to weigh up

>> against whether it is needed in core when it already exists as an add-on.

>> 

>> Actually, also just for the sake of adding it here, and since I was

>> just playing with it for another thread - Windows 10 has a clipboard

>> history - you can press WINDOWS+V and arrow through a list of recent

>> things copied to the clipboard. Arguably (for those on recent Windows

>> 10 builds) that could be a way of "checking" what has been copied if

>> you aren't sure.

>> 

>> 

>> On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 3:15 PM Gene <gsasner@...

>> <mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

>> 

>>     I didn't say you said that.  You said and this is a quote, for

>>     those with punctuation off, "Similar to announcing cut, copied or

>>     pasted, reporting when a document is saved is not something we

>>     would be inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a

>>     document had been saved."

>>     I see no evidence that copy, cut, and paste, can't be definitely

>>     determined.  I don't know what JAWS does or System Access, nor do

>>     I know how the add-on monitors to determine when text is copied

>>     and pasted.  But the reason the developers didn't want to put a

>>     copy and paste announcement in NVDA is because they said you can't

>>     tell when those actions are done, which is incorrect.  I'm saying

>>     that some how, when this was being considered, the developers

>>     believed it couldn't be done and that is stated in the Github

>>     (spelling) discussion.

>>     A copy and paste announcement is a different case from an e-mail

>>     sent announcement.  In the e-mail case, you get an indication from

>>     the program whether the message was sent.  When you copy, there is

>>     nothing that happens to confirm that you have done so.  Without

>>     such confirmation, very inconvenient things may occur.  Suppose

>>     you are copying or moving files.  You issue the copy command, move

>>     fifteen selected files, then issue the copy command after you have

>>     selected twenty more files.  You then paste in a different folder

>>     than the first fifteen. Imagine the annoyance when you find you

>>     have copied the first fifteen files over again.  You then have the

>>     annoyance of having to delete them, go back, copy the twenty files

>>     over again after you select them again, then paste them again.

>>     The same thing could happen with text.

>>     You can't assume that even if you are careful and know you have

>>     issued the copy command correctly, that it has worked.  I have

>>     exeecuted commands in the past that weren't carried out for some

>>     reason and I had to execute the command twice.  Before the add-on,

>>     I had inconveniences such as I described above now and then.  They

>>     could have been avoided if the add-on had been available or if a

>>     copy and paste announcement were built into NVDA.  I consider this

>>     an important function and it should be built into the screen-reader.

>>     My experience is that the add-on is accurate, but if others have

>>     experiences that it isn't as good as it ideally should be, then

>>     that could be worked on.

>>     But aside from my experience that the add-on works well, my

>>     experience with JAWS, which I used for years before NVDA existed,

>>     is that it is accurate.  I'm saying that the premise on which the

>>     function was rejected is incorrect.

>>     Gene

>>     ----- Original Message -----

>>     *From:* Quentin Christensen <mailto:quentin@...>

>>     *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 7:32 PM

>>     *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>     *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>     I didn't say you couldn't make an educational assumption about

>>     when copying and pasting has taken place, and from what I've

>>     experienced, the add-on does do an excellent job of this.  What I

>>     meant by us not being able to tell, was more that it would involve

>>     checking other things to determine whether something has been

>>     copied etc, rather than having something exposed from the program

>>     or Windows which states definitively "text has been copied" (or

>>     how much, or whatever).  The fact that the add-on does such a good

>>     job of it, could be an argument to put forward a case for adding

>>     it to NVDA core.  My understanding is that this is basically how

>>     other screen readers make the same assumptions about copying and

>>     pasting.

>> 

>>     Re knowing when an email has been sent.  In a way, it is the same

>>     thing, because you don't get a message saying it has been sent,

>>     but you know it has been sent because the draft email disappears

>>     when you give the instruction to send it, and there's no error

>>     message. Theoretically, NVDA could be made to give the user a

>>     message that the email had been sent.  You are right about

>>     teaching people to use those cues to know that it has been sent,

>>     my point was simply that in my experience, if you haven't got them

>>     familiar with the idea beforehand, probably the majority of

>>     people, if you just instruct them how to write an email and what

>>     button to press to send it, will immediately ask "did it send?"

>>     The merits of adding a confirmation to reassure new users, vs only

>>     notifying when there is an error could be debated either way, but

>>     that's the way it works, and largely, that is the same for copying

>>     text.

>> 

>>     We could do away with a lot of confirmation messages if we expect

>>     people to understand what commands they are giving the computer

>>     and the ways they behave.  Or, we could add in a lot more

>>     confirmation messages if we want to make computers more novice

>>     friendly.  Is the current system perfect?  Probably not.  Office,

>>     for instance, has changed to automatically saving documents.  Once

>>     you've saved a document once, in Word 2003, if you write some more

>>     text, and then press ALT+F4, Word will ask if you want to save the

>>     changes.  Word 365 will have already saved your changes and will

>>     simply close.  Which way is correct?  You could argue either way -

>>     and in fact, in the Office 365 model currenly, you NEVER get a

>>     confirmation your document has been saved.  But you can infer it

>>     by reading the title bar (for the purpose of the conversation,

>>     disregard the bug that currently prevents getting that

>>     information) and by the fact that you don't get prompted to save

>>     when you try to close Word.

>> 

>> 

>>     On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 10:48 AM Gene <gsasner@...

>>     <mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

>> 

>>         If an e-mail has been sent, the window closes and you are

>>         automatically placed where you were before you wrote, replied,

>>         to, or forwarded a message.  If a message isn't able to be

>>         sent, the program opens an error window which gains focus and

>>         you can't miss it. Therefore, a sent announcement is

>>         unnecessary and presents no information that isn't obvious if

>>         you instruct the person in what to look for.  Also, learning

>>         how to derive information from context and behavior is

>>         important.  You won't always have someone explaining

>>         everything in every program and every new program.

>>         But since you clearly indicate that sighted people get

>>         information when saving an already saved document again, this

>>         is a case where the screen-reader isn't presenting information

>>         that would be useful and that can't conveniently be inferred,

>>         as in the case of e-mail.

>>         And the idea that the developers got somehow that it can't be

>>         determined when copying and pasting take place is just plain

>>         wrong.  it isn't even debateable, it’s a matter of fact.  JAWS

>>         knows when, and System Access knows when.  I have specifically

>>         seen instances when copying didn't take place and no erroneous

>>         report was made.  I don't know how this myth that the

>>         developers persist in believing got started but it has never

>>         been true.

>>         Also, the NVDA add-on tells me accurately when copying and

>>         pasting takes place.  The person who wrote the add-on believes

>>         that it doesn't for some reason but I've been using it almost

>>         daily since it came out and I've almost never seen it make a

>>         mistake.

>>         I'm making a point of this because, since this can be

>>         accurately determined, it should be incorporated into NVDA and

>>         not left to an add-on, which a lot of people will never know

>>         exist.

>>         Gene

>>         ----- Original Message -----

>>         *From:* Quentin Christensen <mailto:quentin@...>

>>         *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 4:39 PM

>>         *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>         *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>         Just chiming in to give the visual perspective:

>>         In Notepad, when pressing control+s:

>>         - If the document has not been saved before, the "Save as"

>>         dialog appears and NVDA reports that.

>>         - If the document has been saved previously, Notepad saves it,

>>         and NVDA does not say anything (unless you have speak command

>>         keys on, in which case NVDA reports "control+s").  Notepad

>>         does put an asterisk at the start of the filename in the title

>>         bar when a document has been edited.  This disappears when the

>>         document is saved.  NVDA does read this asterisk when reading

>>         the title bar.

>> 

>>         In Word 365, when pressing control+s:

>>         - If the document has not been saved before, a "Save this

>>         file" window appears and NVDA reports that.

>>         - If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is

>>         enabled, nothing happens and NVDA does not report anything

>>         (again unless speak command keys is on to report

>>         "control+s").  With AutoSave on, the document is saved every

>>         time any key is pressed so control+s is not needed.

>>         - If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is

>>         not enabled, the visual response is again subtle.  When you

>>         open a document, or save it, the title bar notes "Filename -

>>         Saved".  Once you change it, the "Saved" disappears.  This

>>         gets reinstated when you save it.  There is currently a known

>>         issue, I believe with the way Office is exposing the title

>>         bar.  See: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10150

>> 

>>         Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting when a

>>         document is saved is not something we would be inclined to add

>>         to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a document had been saved.  I

>>         can see the usefulness of the functionality for some users (it

>>         reminds me of how when teaching email, people often want

>>         confirmation that the email has been sent, but many email

>>         clients don't give that).  For this reason, I would recommend

>>         it might be useful functionality for an add-on.  Possibly

>>         Damien Garwood, developer of the ClipSpeak add-on, might be

>>         interested in adding it.

>> 

>>         Kind regards

>> 

>>         Quentin.

>> 

>>         On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 6:14 AM Gene <gsasner@...

>>         <mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

>> 

>>             I checked, and the settings you are discussing are checked

>>             by default.  So people should hear this message in general.

>>             Gene

>>             ----- Original Message -----

>>             *From:* Gene via Groups.Io

>>             <mailto:gsasner@...>

>>             *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:08 PM

>>             *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>             *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>             It should be spoken and if it isn't without changing NVDA

>>             settings, the problem should be corrected.

>>             Perhaps this is a problem using NVDA in Windows 10. The

>>             message is spoken in Windows 7.

>>             Gene

>>             ----- Original Message -----

>> 

>>             *From:* hurrikennyandopo ...

>>             <mailto:hurrikennyandopo@...>

>>             *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:02 PM

>>             *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>             *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>             Hi

>> 

>> 

>>             If it is the message he wants to hear even though it is

>>             not spoken when in note pad and do the alt key + f4 key

>>             and get the message do you want to save which is not spoken.

>> 

>> 

>>             he can do the following in nvdas settings under simple

>>             review cursor make sure it is checked and make sure simple

>>             review mode is checked.

>> 

>> 

>>             If i want to hear the message when it comes up and says

>>             cancel save etc and it is not spoken out which does not

>>             worry me I can use object navigation to hear it in this

>>             case it is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric keypad then use

>>             nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the buttons are and save

>>             that way.

>> 

>> 

>>             Some of the material that is not read out can be accessed

>>             with object navigation like this example.

>> 

>> 

>>             If a document is already saved I do not need to hear it

>>             has been saved as I know it has been.

>> 

>> 

>>             Gene nz

>> 

>> 

>>             On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:

>>>             Window-eyes says that because it is told by the

>>>             developers, to say that word when that key combination is

>>>             pressed.  it isn't analyzing an action by the word

>>>             processor or text editor to know if a document was

>>>             saved.  It is just saying the word.  That is bad design

>>>             and Window-eyes probably says other things because the

>>>             screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a

>>>             certain key combination is pressed.

>>>             Frankly, you are worrying excessively about almost

>>>             nothing.  As I said, if you issue the save command twice,

>>>             it is almost 100 percent certain that the document has

>>>             been saved. And to emphasize the point, all this time,

>>>             you were saving documents and relying on Window-eyes to

>>>             tell you that they were saved when actually, all it was

>>>             doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed

>>>             to when you pressed that combination.  But that shows how

>>>             reliably your documents were being saved.

>>>             Gene

>>>             ----- Original Message -----

>>>             *From:* Grant Metcalf <mailto:the.gems@...>

>>>             *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM

>>>             *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>>             *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>>> 

>>>             *FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s command

>>>             it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is

>>>             helpful. Another thought that occured to me is to go to

>>>             the file name in the subdirectory and check the date and

>>>             time last saved, especially if i want to continue editing

>>>             the document.*

>>>             **

>>>             *Listening for His shout!*

>>>             *Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS*

>>             --

>>             Image NVDA certified expert

>>             Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other

>>             blindness related materials at

>>             http://www.accessibilitycentral.net

>> 

>>             To find out which library networks in New Zealand have a

>>             copy of the NVDA screen reader on them and there library

>>             locations please go to

>>             http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nz%20libraries%20with%20nvda.html

>>             To find a NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the

>>             following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The

>>             certification page contains the official list of NVDA

>>             certified individuals from around the world, who have sat

>>             and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>         --

>>         Quentin Christensen

>>         Training and Support Manager

>> 

>>         Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

>>         Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

>>         Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

>>         User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

>>         Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess

>>         Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>     --

>>     Quentin Christensen

>>     Training and Support Manager

>> 

>>     Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

>>     Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

>>     Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

>>     User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

>>     Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess

>>     Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> --

>> Quentin Christensen

>> Training and Support Manager

>> 

>> Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

>> Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

>> Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

>> User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess

>> Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

>

 

 

 

 

Re: NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,

Screen review and clipboard history: no, as this is an overlay window.

You can review clipboard history items via object navigation, but that’s not really the way to go for this scenario – you can use arrow keys to review items themselves, similar to how one can browse through emojis in emoji panel portion of modern keyboard. After you arrive at a certain item, you can then use review cursor to review data.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 8:58 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

No, I don't need the details but it is important to know whether, if you go into screen review mode, if you can review the information.  If not, can you stay in object navigation and see everything by moving from object to object?

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 10:52 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,

To clarify: review cursor is bounded by review modes – that is, review scope. By default object review is in use, meaning only the content of the current navigator object (or the control one is interested in) can be navigated. Document review expands this to cover complex documents such as a browse mode document, and screen review is used to review controls on screen.

What the current thread is talking about (or rather, what it has become, I believe) is ability to review contents of clipboard history entry. Without going into too much geeky details, when clipboard history opens, navigator object will be placed in the item if any exist. One can then use review cursor commands (Numpad on desktop, NVDA+Shift+arrows or Control+arrows in laptop layout) to review the content of the current item. Thus by default, with object review, only the content is navigable; one has to use arrow keys to review other history items, and not all situations will let you do that – there are times when arrow keys will not work when it comes to reviewing clipboard history, and this depends on which control one is working with.

Let me know if you need the geeky details – but if and only if I may start a brand new thread for discussing internals of modern keyboard features, since yours truly am in the position to give you a “never seen before” tour i.e. I’m the person who programmed that feature into NVDA back in 2017.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 8:31 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

I don't understand what the review cursor is controlled by the currently active review mode means.  Are you talking about in NVDA itself or something else?  for example, are you saying that in object navigation, you can only review the current object unless you move to another one?  It sounds as though you are saying that when in screen review, you still can't review the entire screen.  I believe I've seen this in some situations but isn't that some sort of limitation or problem with the program you are working with?

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 10:00 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,

Yes – each clipboard history item is an object. And no, review will not let you review the entire screen by default – the review cursor is controlled by the currently active review mode, and in case of some screens (including clipboard history), reviewing the entire screen isn’t possible via review cursor alone.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 7:45 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Are you in the review cursor?  Did you move from object navigation to the review cursor?  If you are in objecgt navigation, you are reviewing the text in one object.  if you are in review cursor, you are reviewing the entire screen.  Judging from your description, each item in the clipboard history is one object.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Gene

 

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 4:52 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,

No. Also note that for multi-line items, Windows (specifically, modern keyboard) may not show all text.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Griffith
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 2:43 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

I don’t appear to be able to do it here, unless I am misunderstanding Review cursor. I have in Desktop layout used numpad 7,9 and numpad + but all I can access is the one line with the NVDA announcement top at the start of the line and bottom at the end of the line.  I have just tried it with several paragraphs copied to the clipboard but can only retrieve the first line of each paragraph.

Are there other key combinations I should be using?

David Griffith

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Joseph Lee
Sent: 10 November 2019 22:12
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,

Actually, you can access multi-line clipboard text via review cursor.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Griffith
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 2:05 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

I agree  it has limited functionality – it also seems to display only one line of a clipboard clip.

However I guess it might be useful in an emergency as you can turn on NVDA’s Speech Viewer to accessibly access  the content displayed. Admittedly I have not  tried this  but 

David Griffith

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io
Sent: 10 November 2019 21:02
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,   I tried the windows v command,   and I did see 2 things but you

can not do anything with it I.E. You can't hit enter on it or do and

application key on it and get choices so really what is the point of it?

 

On 08/11/2019 06:13, Jaffar Sidek wrote:

> Agreed Quentin.  And for all of the issues experienced on the new

> windows update, the windows+V key combo which allows for exploring the

> history of what has been pasted to the clipboard is indeed revolutionary

> in my opinion.  The ability to retrieve one's forgotten word or code or

> password or text at any time cannot be underestimated.  Cheers!

>

> On 11/8/2019 2:04 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:

>> Re copy and paste etc, remember it's not just about being able to tell

>> with relative confidence that something has occurred, but also how

>> much effort it takes to find that out. I know the add-on seems to work

>> pretty well when I've used it, but maybe my machine is faster than

>> average and my tolerance for waiting for something to happen is greater.

>> 

>> For now, the functionality is available in an add-on.  Yes it could be

>> argued to bring it over to core, but then again, that would also take

>> someone's time instead of adding some other feature or fixing some

>> other bug - again, not a reason not to do it, but a reason to weigh up

>> against whether it is needed in core when it already exists as an add-on.

>> 

>> Actually, also just for the sake of adding it here, and since I was

>> just playing with it for another thread - Windows 10 has a clipboard

>> history - you can press WINDOWS+V and arrow through a list of recent

>> things copied to the clipboard. Arguably (for those on recent Windows

>> 10 builds) that could be a way of "checking" what has been copied if

>> you aren't sure.

>> 

>> 

>> On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 3:15 PM Gene <gsasner@...

>> <mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

>> 

>>     I didn't say you said that.  You said and this is a quote, for

>>     those with punctuation off, "Similar to announcing cut, copied or

>>     pasted, reporting when a document is saved is not something we

>>     would be inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a

>>     document had been saved."

>>     I see no evidence that copy, cut, and paste, can't be definitely

>>     determined.  I don't know what JAWS does or System Access, nor do

>>     I know how the add-on monitors to determine when text is copied

>>     and pasted.  But the reason the developers didn't want to put a

>>     copy and paste announcement in NVDA is because they said you can't

>>     tell when those actions are done, which is incorrect.  I'm saying

>>     that some how, when this was being considered, the developers

>>     believed it couldn't be done and that is stated in the Github

>>     (spelling) discussion.

>>     A copy and paste announcement is a different case from an e-mail

>>     sent announcement.  In the e-mail case, you get an indication from

>>     the program whether the message was sent.  When you copy, there is

>>     nothing that happens to confirm that you have done so.  Without

>>     such confirmation, very inconvenient things may occur.  Suppose

>>     you are copying or moving files.  You issue the copy command, move

>>     fifteen selected files, then issue the copy command after you have

>>     selected twenty more files.  You then paste in a different folder

>>     than the first fifteen. Imagine the annoyance when you find you

>>     have copied the first fifteen files over again.  You then have the

>>     annoyance of having to delete them, go back, copy the twenty files

>>     over again after you select them again, then paste them again.

>>     The same thing could happen with text.

>>     You can't assume that even if you are careful and know you have

>>     issued the copy command correctly, that it has worked.  I have

>>     exeecuted commands in the past that weren't carried out for some

>>     reason and I had to execute the command twice.  Before the add-on,

>>     I had inconveniences such as I described above now and then.  They

>>     could have been avoided if the add-on had been available or if a

>>     copy and paste announcement were built into NVDA.  I consider this

>>     an important function and it should be built into the screen-reader.

>>     My experience is that the add-on is accurate, but if others have

>>     experiences that it isn't as good as it ideally should be, then

>>     that could be worked on.

>>     But aside from my experience that the add-on works well, my

>>     experience with JAWS, which I used for years before NVDA existed,

>>     is that it is accurate.  I'm saying that the premise on which the

>>     function was rejected is incorrect.

>>     Gene

>>     ----- Original Message -----

>>     *From:* Quentin Christensen <mailto:quentin@...>

>>     *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 7:32 PM

>>     *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>     *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>     I didn't say you couldn't make an educational assumption about

>>     when copying and pasting has taken place, and from what I've

>>     experienced, the add-on does do an excellent job of this.  What I

>>     meant by us not being able to tell, was more that it would involve

>>     checking other things to determine whether something has been

>>     copied etc, rather than having something exposed from the program

>>     or Windows which states definitively "text has been copied" (or

>>     how much, or whatever).  The fact that the add-on does such a good

>>     job of it, could be an argument to put forward a case for adding

>>     it to NVDA core.  My understanding is that this is basically how

>>     other screen readers make the same assumptions about copying and

>>     pasting.

>> 

>>     Re knowing when an email has been sent.  In a way, it is the same

>>     thing, because you don't get a message saying it has been sent,

>>     but you know it has been sent because the draft email disappears

>>     when you give the instruction to send it, and there's no error

>>     message. Theoretically, NVDA could be made to give the user a

>>     message that the email had been sent.  You are right about

>>     teaching people to use those cues to know that it has been sent,

>>     my point was simply that in my experience, if you haven't got them

>>     familiar with the idea beforehand, probably the majority of

>>     people, if you just instruct them how to write an email and what

>>     button to press to send it, will immediately ask "did it send?"

>>     The merits of adding a confirmation to reassure new users, vs only

>>     notifying when there is an error could be debated either way, but

>>     that's the way it works, and largely, that is the same for copying

>>     text.

>> 

>>     We could do away with a lot of confirmation messages if we expect

>>     people to understand what commands they are giving the computer

>>     and the ways they behave.  Or, we could add in a lot more

>>     confirmation messages if we want to make computers more novice

>>     friendly.  Is the current system perfect?  Probably not.  Office,

>>     for instance, has changed to automatically saving documents.  Once

>>     you've saved a document once, in Word 2003, if you write some more

>>     text, and then press ALT+F4, Word will ask if you want to save the

>>     changes.  Word 365 will have already saved your changes and will

>>     simply close.  Which way is correct?  You could argue either way -

>>     and in fact, in the Office 365 model currenly, you NEVER get a

>>     confirmation your document has been saved.  But you can infer it

>>     by reading the title bar (for the purpose of the conversation,

>>     disregard the bug that currently prevents getting that

>>     information) and by the fact that you don't get prompted to save

>>     when you try to close Word.

>> 

>> 

>>     On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 10:48 AM Gene <gsasner@...

>>     <mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

>> 

>>         If an e-mail has been sent, the window closes and you are

>>         automatically placed where you were before you wrote, replied,

>>         to, or forwarded a message.  If a message isn't able to be

>>         sent, the program opens an error window which gains focus and

>>         you can't miss it. Therefore, a sent announcement is

>>         unnecessary and presents no information that isn't obvious if

>>         you instruct the person in what to look for.  Also, learning

>>         how to derive information from context and behavior is

>>         important.  You won't always have someone explaining

>>         everything in every program and every new program.

>>         But since you clearly indicate that sighted people get

>>         information when saving an already saved document again, this

>>         is a case where the screen-reader isn't presenting information

>>         that would be useful and that can't conveniently be inferred,

>>         as in the case of e-mail.

>>         And the idea that the developers got somehow that it can't be

>>         determined when copying and pasting take place is just plain

>>         wrong.  it isn't even debateable, it’s a matter of fact.  JAWS

>>         knows when, and System Access knows when.  I have specifically

>>         seen instances when copying didn't take place and no erroneous

>>         report was made.  I don't know how this myth that the

>>         developers persist in believing got started but it has never

>>         been true.

>>         Also, the NVDA add-on tells me accurately when copying and

>>         pasting takes place.  The person who wrote the add-on believes

>>         that it doesn't for some reason but I've been using it almost

>>         daily since it came out and I've almost never seen it make a

>>         mistake.

>>         I'm making a point of this because, since this can be

>>         accurately determined, it should be incorporated into NVDA and

>>         not left to an add-on, which a lot of people will never know

>>         exist.

>>         Gene

>>         ----- Original Message -----

>>         *From:* Quentin Christensen <mailto:quentin@...>

>>         *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 4:39 PM

>>         *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>         *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>         Just chiming in to give the visual perspective:

>>         In Notepad, when pressing control+s:

>>         - If the document has not been saved before, the "Save as"

>>         dialog appears and NVDA reports that.

>>         - If the document has been saved previously, Notepad saves it,

>>         and NVDA does not say anything (unless you have speak command

>>         keys on, in which case NVDA reports "control+s").  Notepad

>>         does put an asterisk at the start of the filename in the title

>>         bar when a document has been edited.  This disappears when the

>>         document is saved.  NVDA does read this asterisk when reading

>>         the title bar.

>> 

>>         In Word 365, when pressing control+s:

>>         - If the document has not been saved before, a "Save this

>>         file" window appears and NVDA reports that.

>>         - If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is

>>         enabled, nothing happens and NVDA does not report anything

>>         (again unless speak command keys is on to report

>>         "control+s").  With AutoSave on, the document is saved every

>>         time any key is pressed so control+s is not needed.

>>         - If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is

>>         not enabled, the visual response is again subtle.  When you

>>         open a document, or save it, the title bar notes "Filename -

>>         Saved".  Once you change it, the "Saved" disappears.  This

>>         gets reinstated when you save it.  There is currently a known

>>         issue, I believe with the way Office is exposing the title

>>         bar.  See: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10150

>> 

>>         Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting when a

>>         document is saved is not something we would be inclined to add

>>         to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a document had been saved.  I

>>         can see the usefulness of the functionality for some users (it

>>         reminds me of how when teaching email, people often want

>>         confirmation that the email has been sent, but many email

>>         clients don't give that).  For this reason, I would recommend

>>         it might be useful functionality for an add-on.  Possibly

>>         Damien Garwood, developer of the ClipSpeak add-on, might be

>>         interested in adding it.

>> 

>>         Kind regards

>> 

>>         Quentin.

>> 

>>         On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 6:14 AM Gene <gsasner@...

>>         <mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

>> 

>>             I checked, and the settings you are discussing are checked

>>             by default.  So people should hear this message in general.

>>             Gene

>>             ----- Original Message -----

>>             *From:* Gene via Groups.Io

>>             <mailto:gsasner@...>

>>             *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:08 PM

>>             *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>             *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>             It should be spoken and if it isn't without changing NVDA

>>             settings, the problem should be corrected.

>>             Perhaps this is a problem using NVDA in Windows 10. The

>>             message is spoken in Windows 7.

>>             Gene

>>             ----- Original Message -----

>> 

>>             *From:* hurrikennyandopo ...

>>             <mailto:hurrikennyandopo@...>

>>             *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:02 PM

>>             *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>             *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>             Hi

>> 

>> 

>>             If it is the message he wants to hear even though it is

>>             not spoken when in note pad and do the alt key + f4 key

>>             and get the message do you want to save which is not spoken.

>> 

>> 

>>             he can do the following in nvdas settings under simple

>>             review cursor make sure it is checked and make sure simple

>>             review mode is checked.

>> 

>> 

>>             If i want to hear the message when it comes up and says

>>             cancel save etc and it is not spoken out which does not

>>             worry me I can use object navigation to hear it in this

>>             case it is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric keypad then use

>>             nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the buttons are and save

>>             that way.

>> 

>> 

>>             Some of the material that is not read out can be accessed

>>             with object navigation like this example.

>> 

>> 

>>             If a document is already saved I do not need to hear it

>>             has been saved as I know it has been.

>> 

>> 

>>             Gene nz

>> 

>> 

>>             On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:

>>>             Window-eyes says that because it is told by the

>>>             developers, to say that word when that key combination is

>>>             pressed.  it isn't analyzing an action by the word

>>>             processor or text editor to know if a document was

>>>             saved.  It is just saying the word.  That is bad design

>>>             and Window-eyes probably says other things because the

>>>             screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a

>>>             certain key combination is pressed.

>>>             Frankly, you are worrying excessively about almost

>>>             nothing.  As I said, if you issue the save command twice,

>>>             it is almost 100 percent certain that the document has

>>>             been saved. And to emphasize the point, all this time,

>>>             you were saving documents and relying on Window-eyes to

>>>             tell you that they were saved when actually, all it was

>>>             doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed

>>>             to when you pressed that combination.  But that shows how

>>>             reliably your documents were being saved.

>>>             Gene

>>>             ----- Original Message -----

>>>             *From:* Grant Metcalf <mailto:the.gems@...>

>>>             *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM

>>>             *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>>             *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>>> 

>>>             *FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s command

>>>             it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is

>>>             helpful. Another thought that occured to me is to go to

>>>             the file name in the subdirectory and check the date and

>>>             time last saved, especially if i want to continue editing

>>>             the document.*

>>>             **

>>>             *Listening for His shout!*

>>>             *Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS*

>>             --

>>             Image NVDA certified expert

>>             Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other

>>             blindness related materials at

>>             http://www.accessibilitycentral.net

>> 

>>             To find out which library networks in New Zealand have a

>>             copy of the NVDA screen reader on them and there library

>>             locations please go to

>>             http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nz%20libraries%20with%20nvda.html

>>             To find a NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the

>>             following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The

>>             certification page contains the official list of NVDA

>>             certified individuals from around the world, who have sat

>>             and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>         --

>>         Quentin Christensen

>>         Training and Support Manager

>> 

>>         Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

>>         Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

>>         Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

>>         User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

>>         Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess

>>         Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>     --

>>     Quentin Christensen

>>     Training and Support Manager

>> 

>>     Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

>>     Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

>>     Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

>>     User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

>>     Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess

>>     Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> --

>> Quentin Christensen

>> Training and Support Manager

>> 

>> Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

>> Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

>> Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

>> User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess

>> Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

>

 

 

 

 

Re: NVDA adding and changing settings

Gene
 

No, I don't need the details but it is important to know whether, if you go into screen review mode, if you can review the information.  If not, can you stay in object navigation and see everything by moving from object to object?
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 10:52 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

Hi,

To clarify: review cursor is bounded by review modes – that is, review scope. By default object review is in use, meaning only the content of the current navigator object (or the control one is interested in) can be navigated. Document review expands this to cover complex documents such as a browse mode document, and screen review is used to review controls on screen.

What the current thread is talking about (or rather, what it has become, I believe) is ability to review contents of clipboard history entry. Without going into too much geeky details, when clipboard history opens, navigator object will be placed in the item if any exist. One can then use review cursor commands (Numpad on desktop, NVDA+Shift+arrows or Control+arrows in laptop layout) to review the content of the current item. Thus by default, with object review, only the content is navigable; one has to use arrow keys to review other history items, and not all situations will let you do that – there are times when arrow keys will not work when it comes to reviewing clipboard history, and this depends on which control one is working with.

Let me know if you need the geeky details – but if and only if I may start a brand new thread for discussing internals of modern keyboard features, since yours truly am in the position to give you a “never seen before” tour i.e. I’m the person who programmed that feature into NVDA back in 2017.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 8:31 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

I don't understand what the review cursor is controlled by the currently active review mode means.  Are you talking about in NVDA itself or something else?  for example, are you saying that in object navigation, you can only review the current object unless you move to another one?  It sounds as though you are saying that when in screen review, you still can't review the entire screen.  I believe I've seen this in some situations but isn't that some sort of limitation or problem with the program you are working with?

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 10:00 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,

Yes – each clipboard history item is an object. And no, review will not let you review the entire screen by default – the review cursor is controlled by the currently active review mode, and in case of some screens (including clipboard history), reviewing the entire screen isn’t possible via review cursor alone.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 7:45 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Are you in the review cursor?  Did you move from object navigation to the review cursor?  If you are in objecgt navigation, you are reviewing the text in one object.  if you are in review cursor, you are reviewing the entire screen.  Judging from your description, each item in the clipboard history is one object.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Gene

 

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 4:52 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,

No. Also note that for multi-line items, Windows (specifically, modern keyboard) may not show all text.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Griffith
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 2:43 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

I don’t appear to be able to do it here, unless I am misunderstanding Review cursor. I have in Desktop layout used numpad 7,9 and numpad + but all I can access is the one line with the NVDA announcement top at the start of the line and bottom at the end of the line.  I have just tried it with several paragraphs copied to the clipboard but can only retrieve the first line of each paragraph.

Are there other key combinations I should be using?

David Griffith

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Joseph Lee
Sent: 10 November 2019 22:12
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,

Actually, you can access multi-line clipboard text via review cursor.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Griffith
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 2:05 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

I agree  it has limited functionality – it also seems to display only one line of a clipboard clip.

However I guess it might be useful in an emergency as you can turn on NVDA’s Speech Viewer to accessibly access  the content displayed. Admittedly I have not  tried this  but 

David Griffith

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io
Sent: 10 November 2019 21:02
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,   I tried the windows v command,   and I did see 2 things but you

can not do anything with it I.E. You can't hit enter on it or do and

application key on it and get choices so really what is the point of it?

 

On 08/11/2019 06:13, Jaffar Sidek wrote:

> Agreed Quentin.  And for all of the issues experienced on the new

> windows update, the windows+V key combo which allows for exploring the

> history of what has been pasted to the clipboard is indeed revolutionary

> in my opinion.  The ability to retrieve one's forgotten word or code or

> password or text at any time cannot be underestimated.  Cheers!

>

> On 11/8/2019 2:04 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:

>> Re copy and paste etc, remember it's not just about being able to tell

>> with relative confidence that something has occurred, but also how

>> much effort it takes to find that out. I know the add-on seems to work

>> pretty well when I've used it, but maybe my machine is faster than

>> average and my tolerance for waiting for something to happen is greater.

>> 

>> For now, the functionality is available in an add-on.  Yes it could be

>> argued to bring it over to core, but then again, that would also take

>> someone's time instead of adding some other feature or fixing some

>> other bug - again, not a reason not to do it, but a reason to weigh up

>> against whether it is needed in core when it already exists as an add-on.

>> 

>> Actually, also just for the sake of adding it here, and since I was

>> just playing with it for another thread - Windows 10 has a clipboard

>> history - you can press WINDOWS+V and arrow through a list of recent

>> things copied to the clipboard. Arguably (for those on recent Windows

>> 10 builds) that could be a way of "checking" what has been copied if

>> you aren't sure.

>> 

>> 

>> On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 3:15 PM Gene <gsasner@...

>> <mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

>> 

>>     I didn't say you said that.  You said and this is a quote, for

>>     those with punctuation off, "Similar to announcing cut, copied or

>>     pasted, reporting when a document is saved is not something we

>>     would be inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a

>>     document had been saved."

>>     I see no evidence that copy, cut, and paste, can't be definitely

>>     determined.  I don't know what JAWS does or System Access, nor do

>>     I know how the add-on monitors to determine when text is copied

>>     and pasted.  But the reason the developers didn't want to put a

>>     copy and paste announcement in NVDA is because they said you can't

>>     tell when those actions are done, which is incorrect.  I'm saying

>>     that some how, when this was being considered, the developers

>>     believed it couldn't be done and that is stated in the Github

>>     (spelling) discussion.

>>     A copy and paste announcement is a different case from an e-mail

>>     sent announcement.  In the e-mail case, you get an indication from

>>     the program whether the message was sent.  When you copy, there is

>>     nothing that happens to confirm that you have done so.  Without

>>     such confirmation, very inconvenient things may occur.  Suppose

>>     you are copying or moving files.  You issue the copy command, move

>>     fifteen selected files, then issue the copy command after you have

>>     selected twenty more files.  You then paste in a different folder

>>     than the first fifteen. Imagine the annoyance when you find you

>>     have copied the first fifteen files over again.  You then have the

>>     annoyance of having to delete them, go back, copy the twenty files

>>     over again after you select them again, then paste them again.

>>     The same thing could happen with text.

>>     You can't assume that even if you are careful and know you have

>>     issued the copy command correctly, that it has worked.  I have

>>     exeecuted commands in the past that weren't carried out for some

>>     reason and I had to execute the command twice.  Before the add-on,

>>     I had inconveniences such as I described above now and then.  They

>>     could have been avoided if the add-on had been available or if a

>>     copy and paste announcement were built into NVDA.  I consider this

>>     an important function and it should be built into the screen-reader.

>>     My experience is that the add-on is accurate, but if others have

>>     experiences that it isn't as good as it ideally should be, then

>>     that could be worked on.

>>     But aside from my experience that the add-on works well, my

>>     experience with JAWS, which I used for years before NVDA existed,

>>     is that it is accurate.  I'm saying that the premise on which the

>>     function was rejected is incorrect.

>>     Gene

>>     ----- Original Message -----

>>     *From:* Quentin Christensen <mailto:quentin@...>

>>     *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 7:32 PM

>>     *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>     *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>     I didn't say you couldn't make an educational assumption about

>>     when copying and pasting has taken place, and from what I've

>>     experienced, the add-on does do an excellent job of this.  What I

>>     meant by us not being able to tell, was more that it would involve

>>     checking other things to determine whether something has been

>>     copied etc, rather than having something exposed from the program

>>     or Windows which states definitively "text has been copied" (or

>>     how much, or whatever).  The fact that the add-on does such a good

>>     job of it, could be an argument to put forward a case for adding

>>     it to NVDA core.  My understanding is that this is basically how

>>     other screen readers make the same assumptions about copying and

>>     pasting.

>> 

>>     Re knowing when an email has been sent.  In a way, it is the same

>>     thing, because you don't get a message saying it has been sent,

>>     but you know it has been sent because the draft email disappears

>>     when you give the instruction to send it, and there's no error

>>     message. Theoretically, NVDA could be made to give the user a

>>     message that the email had been sent.  You are right about

>>     teaching people to use those cues to know that it has been sent,

>>     my point was simply that in my experience, if you haven't got them

>>     familiar with the idea beforehand, probably the majority of

>>     people, if you just instruct them how to write an email and what

>>     button to press to send it, will immediately ask "did it send?"

>>     The merits of adding a confirmation to reassure new users, vs only

>>     notifying when there is an error could be debated either way, but

>>     that's the way it works, and largely, that is the same for copying

>>     text.

>> 

>>     We could do away with a lot of confirmation messages if we expect

>>     people to understand what commands they are giving the computer

>>     and the ways they behave.  Or, we could add in a lot more

>>     confirmation messages if we want to make computers more novice

>>     friendly.  Is the current system perfect?  Probably not.  Office,

>>     for instance, has changed to automatically saving documents.  Once

>>     you've saved a document once, in Word 2003, if you write some more

>>     text, and then press ALT+F4, Word will ask if you want to save the

>>     changes.  Word 365 will have already saved your changes and will

>>     simply close.  Which way is correct?  You could argue either way -

>>     and in fact, in the Office 365 model currenly, you NEVER get a

>>     confirmation your document has been saved.  But you can infer it

>>     by reading the title bar (for the purpose of the conversation,

>>     disregard the bug that currently prevents getting that

>>     information) and by the fact that you don't get prompted to save

>>     when you try to close Word.

>> 

>> 

>>     On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 10:48 AM Gene <gsasner@...

>>     <mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

>> 

>>         If an e-mail has been sent, the window closes and you are

>>         automatically placed where you were before you wrote, replied,

>>         to, or forwarded a message.  If a message isn't able to be

>>         sent, the program opens an error window which gains focus and

>>         you can't miss it. Therefore, a sent announcement is

>>         unnecessary and presents no information that isn't obvious if

>>         you instruct the person in what to look for.  Also, learning

>>         how to derive information from context and behavior is

>>         important.  You won't always have someone explaining

>>         everything in every program and every new program.

>>         But since you clearly indicate that sighted people get

>>         information when saving an already saved document again, this

>>         is a case where the screen-reader isn't presenting information

>>         that would be useful and that can't conveniently be inferred,

>>         as in the case of e-mail.

>>         And the idea that the developers got somehow that it can't be

>>         determined when copying and pasting take place is just plain

>>         wrong.  it isn't even debateable, it’s a matter of fact.  JAWS

>>         knows when, and System Access knows when.  I have specifically

>>         seen instances when copying didn't take place and no erroneous

>>         report was made.  I don't know how this myth that the

>>         developers persist in believing got started but it has never

>>         been true.

>>         Also, the NVDA add-on tells me accurately when copying and

>>         pasting takes place.  The person who wrote the add-on believes

>>         that it doesn't for some reason but I've been using it almost

>>         daily since it came out and I've almost never seen it make a

>>         mistake.

>>         I'm making a point of this because, since this can be

>>         accurately determined, it should be incorporated into NVDA and

>>         not left to an add-on, which a lot of people will never know

>>         exist.

>>         Gene

>>         ----- Original Message -----

>>         *From:* Quentin Christensen <mailto:quentin@...>

>>         *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 4:39 PM

>>         *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>         *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>         Just chiming in to give the visual perspective:

>>         In Notepad, when pressing control+s:

>>         - If the document has not been saved before, the "Save as"

>>         dialog appears and NVDA reports that.

>>         - If the document has been saved previously, Notepad saves it,

>>         and NVDA does not say anything (unless you have speak command

>>         keys on, in which case NVDA reports "control+s").  Notepad

>>         does put an asterisk at the start of the filename in the title

>>         bar when a document has been edited.  This disappears when the

>>         document is saved.  NVDA does read this asterisk when reading

>>         the title bar.

>> 

>>         In Word 365, when pressing control+s:

>>         - If the document has not been saved before, a "Save this

>>         file" window appears and NVDA reports that.

>>         - If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is

>>         enabled, nothing happens and NVDA does not report anything

>>         (again unless speak command keys is on to report

>>         "control+s").  With AutoSave on, the document is saved every

>>         time any key is pressed so control+s is not needed.

>>         - If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is

>>         not enabled, the visual response is again subtle.  When you

>>         open a document, or save it, the title bar notes "Filename -

>>         Saved".  Once you change it, the "Saved" disappears.  This

>>         gets reinstated when you save it.  There is currently a known

>>         issue, I believe with the way Office is exposing the title

>>         bar.  See: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10150

>> 

>>         Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting when a

>>         document is saved is not something we would be inclined to add

>>         to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a document had been saved.  I

>>         can see the usefulness of the functionality for some users (it

>>         reminds me of how when teaching email, people often want

>>         confirmation that the email has been sent, but many email

>>         clients don't give that).  For this reason, I would recommend

>>         it might be useful functionality for an add-on.  Possibly

>>         Damien Garwood, developer of the ClipSpeak add-on, might be

>>         interested in adding it.

>> 

>>         Kind regards

>> 

>>         Quentin.

>> 

>>         On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 6:14 AM Gene <gsasner@...

>>         <mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

>> 

>>             I checked, and the settings you are discussing are checked

>>             by default.  So people should hear this message in general.

>>             Gene

>>             ----- Original Message -----

>>             *From:* Gene via Groups.Io

>>             <mailto:gsasner@...>

>>             *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:08 PM

>>             *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>             *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>             It should be spoken and if it isn't without changing NVDA

>>             settings, the problem should be corrected.

>>             Perhaps this is a problem using NVDA in Windows 10. The

>>             message is spoken in Windows 7.

>>             Gene

>>             ----- Original Message -----

>> 

>>             *From:* hurrikennyandopo ...

>>             <mailto:hurrikennyandopo@...>

>>             *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:02 PM

>>             *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>             *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>             Hi

>> 

>> 

>>             If it is the message he wants to hear even though it is

>>             not spoken when in note pad and do the alt key + f4 key

>>             and get the message do you want to save which is not spoken.

>> 

>> 

>>             he can do the following in nvdas settings under simple

>>             review cursor make sure it is checked and make sure simple

>>             review mode is checked.

>> 

>> 

>>             If i want to hear the message when it comes up and says

>>             cancel save etc and it is not spoken out which does not

>>             worry me I can use object navigation to hear it in this

>>             case it is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric keypad then use

>>             nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the buttons are and save

>>             that way.

>> 

>> 

>>             Some of the material that is not read out can be accessed

>>             with object navigation like this example.

>> 

>> 

>>             If a document is already saved I do not need to hear it

>>             has been saved as I know it has been.

>> 

>> 

>>             Gene nz

>> 

>> 

>>             On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:

>>>             Window-eyes says that because it is told by the

>>>             developers, to say that word when that key combination is

>>>             pressed.  it isn't analyzing an action by the word

>>>             processor or text editor to know if a document was

>>>             saved.  It is just saying the word.  That is bad design

>>>             and Window-eyes probably says other things because the

>>>             screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a

>>>             certain key combination is pressed.

>>>             Frankly, you are worrying excessively about almost

>>>             nothing.  As I said, if you issue the save command twice,

>>>             it is almost 100 percent certain that the document has

>>>             been saved. And to emphasize the point, all this time,

>>>             you were saving documents and relying on Window-eyes to

>>>             tell you that they were saved when actually, all it was

>>>             doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed

>>>             to when you pressed that combination.  But that shows how

>>>             reliably your documents were being saved.

>>>             Gene

>>>             ----- Original Message -----

>>>             *From:* Grant Metcalf <mailto:the.gems@...>

>>>             *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM

>>>             *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>>             *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>>> 

>>>             *FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s command

>>>             it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is

>>>             helpful. Another thought that occured to me is to go to

>>>             the file name in the subdirectory and check the date and

>>>             time last saved, especially if i want to continue editing

>>>             the document.*

>>>             **

>>>             *Listening for His shout!*

>>>             *Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS*

>>             --

>>             Image NVDA certified expert

>>             Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other

>>             blindness related materials at

>>             http://www.accessibilitycentral.net

>> 

>>             To find out which library networks in New Zealand have a

>>             copy of the NVDA screen reader on them and there library

>>             locations please go to

>>             http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nz%20libraries%20with%20nvda.html

>>             To find a NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the

>>             following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The

>>             certification page contains the official list of NVDA

>>             certified individuals from around the world, who have sat

>>             and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>         --

>>         Quentin Christensen

>>         Training and Support Manager

>> 

>>         Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

>>         Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

>>         Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

>>         User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

>>         Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess

>>         Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>     --

>>     Quentin Christensen

>>     Training and Support Manager

>> 

>>     Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

>>     Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

>>     Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

>>     User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

>>     Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess

>>     Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> --

>> Quentin Christensen

>> Training and Support Manager

>> 

>> Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

>> Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

>> Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

>> User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess

>> Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

>

 

 

 

 

Re: NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,

To clarify: review cursor is bounded by review modes – that is, review scope. By default object review is in use, meaning only the content of the current navigator object (or the control one is interested in) can be navigated. Document review expands this to cover complex documents such as a browse mode document, and screen review is used to review controls on screen.

What the current thread is talking about (or rather, what it has become, I believe) is ability to review contents of clipboard history entry. Without going into too much geeky details, when clipboard history opens, navigator object will be placed in the item if any exist. One can then use review cursor commands (Numpad on desktop, NVDA+Shift+arrows or Control+arrows in laptop layout) to review the content of the current item. Thus by default, with object review, only the content is navigable; one has to use arrow keys to review other history items, and not all situations will let you do that – there are times when arrow keys will not work when it comes to reviewing clipboard history, and this depends on which control one is working with.

Let me know if you need the geeky details – but if and only if I may start a brand new thread for discussing internals of modern keyboard features, since yours truly am in the position to give you a “never seen before” tour i.e. I’m the person who programmed that feature into NVDA back in 2017.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 8:31 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

I don't understand what the review cursor is controlled by the currently active review mode means.  Are you talking about in NVDA itself or something else?  for example, are you saying that in object navigation, you can only review the current object unless you move to another one?  It sounds as though you are saying that when in screen review, you still can't review the entire screen.  I believe I've seen this in some situations but isn't that some sort of limitation or problem with the program you are working with?

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 10:00 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,

Yes – each clipboard history item is an object. And no, review will not let you review the entire screen by default – the review cursor is controlled by the currently active review mode, and in case of some screens (including clipboard history), reviewing the entire screen isn’t possible via review cursor alone.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 7:45 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Are you in the review cursor?  Did you move from object navigation to the review cursor?  If you are in objecgt navigation, you are reviewing the text in one object.  if you are in review cursor, you are reviewing the entire screen.  Judging from your description, each item in the clipboard history is one object.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Gene

 

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 4:52 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,

No. Also note that for multi-line items, Windows (specifically, modern keyboard) may not show all text.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Griffith
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 2:43 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

I don’t appear to be able to do it here, unless I am misunderstanding Review cursor. I have in Desktop layout used numpad 7,9 and numpad + but all I can access is the one line with the NVDA announcement top at the start of the line and bottom at the end of the line.  I have just tried it with several paragraphs copied to the clipboard but can only retrieve the first line of each paragraph.

Are there other key combinations I should be using?

David Griffith

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Joseph Lee
Sent: 10 November 2019 22:12
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,

Actually, you can access multi-line clipboard text via review cursor.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Griffith
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 2:05 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

I agree  it has limited functionality – it also seems to display only one line of a clipboard clip.

However I guess it might be useful in an emergency as you can turn on NVDA’s Speech Viewer to accessibly access  the content displayed. Admittedly I have not  tried this  but 

David Griffith

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io
Sent: 10 November 2019 21:02
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,   I tried the windows v command,   and I did see 2 things but you

can not do anything with it I.E. You can't hit enter on it or do and

application key on it and get choices so really what is the point of it?

 

On 08/11/2019 06:13, Jaffar Sidek wrote:

> Agreed Quentin.  And for all of the issues experienced on the new

> windows update, the windows+V key combo which allows for exploring the

> history of what has been pasted to the clipboard is indeed revolutionary

> in my opinion.  The ability to retrieve one's forgotten word or code or

> password or text at any time cannot be underestimated.  Cheers!

>

> On 11/8/2019 2:04 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:

>> Re copy and paste etc, remember it's not just about being able to tell

>> with relative confidence that something has occurred, but also how

>> much effort it takes to find that out. I know the add-on seems to work

>> pretty well when I've used it, but maybe my machine is faster than

>> average and my tolerance for waiting for something to happen is greater.

>> 

>> For now, the functionality is available in an add-on.  Yes it could be

>> argued to bring it over to core, but then again, that would also take

>> someone's time instead of adding some other feature or fixing some

>> other bug - again, not a reason not to do it, but a reason to weigh up

>> against whether it is needed in core when it already exists as an add-on.

>> 

>> Actually, also just for the sake of adding it here, and since I was

>> just playing with it for another thread - Windows 10 has a clipboard

>> history - you can press WINDOWS+V and arrow through a list of recent

>> things copied to the clipboard. Arguably (for those on recent Windows

>> 10 builds) that could be a way of "checking" what has been copied if

>> you aren't sure.

>> 

>> 

>> On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 3:15 PM Gene <gsasner@...

>> <mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

>> 

>>     I didn't say you said that.  You said and this is a quote, for

>>     those with punctuation off, "Similar to announcing cut, copied or

>>     pasted, reporting when a document is saved is not something we

>>     would be inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a

>>     document had been saved."

>>     I see no evidence that copy, cut, and paste, can't be definitely

>>     determined.  I don't know what JAWS does or System Access, nor do

>>     I know how the add-on monitors to determine when text is copied

>>     and pasted.  But the reason the developers didn't want to put a

>>     copy and paste announcement in NVDA is because they said you can't

>>     tell when those actions are done, which is incorrect.  I'm saying

>>     that some how, when this was being considered, the developers

>>     believed it couldn't be done and that is stated in the Github

>>     (spelling) discussion.

>>     A copy and paste announcement is a different case from an e-mail

>>     sent announcement.  In the e-mail case, you get an indication from

>>     the program whether the message was sent.  When you copy, there is

>>     nothing that happens to confirm that you have done so.  Without

>>     such confirmation, very inconvenient things may occur.  Suppose

>>     you are copying or moving files.  You issue the copy command, move

>>     fifteen selected files, then issue the copy command after you have

>>     selected twenty more files.  You then paste in a different folder

>>     than the first fifteen. Imagine the annoyance when you find you

>>     have copied the first fifteen files over again.  You then have the

>>     annoyance of having to delete them, go back, copy the twenty files

>>     over again after you select them again, then paste them again.

>>     The same thing could happen with text.

>>     You can't assume that even if you are careful and know you have

>>     issued the copy command correctly, that it has worked.  I have

>>     exeecuted commands in the past that weren't carried out for some

>>     reason and I had to execute the command twice.  Before the add-on,

>>     I had inconveniences such as I described above now and then.  They

>>     could have been avoided if the add-on had been available or if a

>>     copy and paste announcement were built into NVDA.  I consider this

>>     an important function and it should be built into the screen-reader.

>>     My experience is that the add-on is accurate, but if others have

>>     experiences that it isn't as good as it ideally should be, then

>>     that could be worked on.

>>     But aside from my experience that the add-on works well, my

>>     experience with JAWS, which I used for years before NVDA existed,

>>     is that it is accurate.  I'm saying that the premise on which the

>>     function was rejected is incorrect.

>>     Gene

>>     ----- Original Message -----

>>     *From:* Quentin Christensen <mailto:quentin@...>

>>     *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 7:32 PM

>>     *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>     *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>     I didn't say you couldn't make an educational assumption about

>>     when copying and pasting has taken place, and from what I've

>>     experienced, the add-on does do an excellent job of this.  What I

>>     meant by us not being able to tell, was more that it would involve

>>     checking other things to determine whether something has been

>>     copied etc, rather than having something exposed from the program

>>     or Windows which states definitively "text has been copied" (or

>>     how much, or whatever).  The fact that the add-on does such a good

>>     job of it, could be an argument to put forward a case for adding

>>     it to NVDA core.  My understanding is that this is basically how

>>     other screen readers make the same assumptions about copying and

>>     pasting.

>> 

>>     Re knowing when an email has been sent.  In a way, it is the same

>>     thing, because you don't get a message saying it has been sent,

>>     but you know it has been sent because the draft email disappears

>>     when you give the instruction to send it, and there's no error

>>     message. Theoretically, NVDA could be made to give the user a

>>     message that the email had been sent.  You are right about

>>     teaching people to use those cues to know that it has been sent,

>>     my point was simply that in my experience, if you haven't got them

>>     familiar with the idea beforehand, probably the majority of

>>     people, if you just instruct them how to write an email and what

>>     button to press to send it, will immediately ask "did it send?"

>>     The merits of adding a confirmation to reassure new users, vs only

>>     notifying when there is an error could be debated either way, but

>>     that's the way it works, and largely, that is the same for copying

>>     text.

>> 

>>     We could do away with a lot of confirmation messages if we expect

>>     people to understand what commands they are giving the computer

>>     and the ways they behave.  Or, we could add in a lot more

>>     confirmation messages if we want to make computers more novice

>>     friendly.  Is the current system perfect?  Probably not.  Office,

>>     for instance, has changed to automatically saving documents.  Once

>>     you've saved a document once, in Word 2003, if you write some more

>>     text, and then press ALT+F4, Word will ask if you want to save the

>>     changes.  Word 365 will have already saved your changes and will

>>     simply close.  Which way is correct?  You could argue either way -

>>     and in fact, in the Office 365 model currenly, you NEVER get a

>>     confirmation your document has been saved.  But you can infer it

>>     by reading the title bar (for the purpose of the conversation,

>>     disregard the bug that currently prevents getting that

>>     information) and by the fact that you don't get prompted to save

>>     when you try to close Word.

>> 

>> 

>>     On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 10:48 AM Gene <gsasner@...

>>     <mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

>> 

>>         If an e-mail has been sent, the window closes and you are

>>         automatically placed where you were before you wrote, replied,

>>         to, or forwarded a message.  If a message isn't able to be

>>         sent, the program opens an error window which gains focus and

>>         you can't miss it. Therefore, a sent announcement is

>>         unnecessary and presents no information that isn't obvious if

>>         you instruct the person in what to look for.  Also, learning

>>         how to derive information from context and behavior is

>>         important.  You won't always have someone explaining

>>         everything in every program and every new program.

>>         But since you clearly indicate that sighted people get

>>         information when saving an already saved document again, this

>>         is a case where the screen-reader isn't presenting information

>>         that would be useful and that can't conveniently be inferred,

>>         as in the case of e-mail.

>>         And the idea that the developers got somehow that it can't be

>>         determined when copying and pasting take place is just plain

>>         wrong.  it isn't even debateable, it’s a matter of fact.  JAWS

>>         knows when, and System Access knows when.  I have specifically

>>         seen instances when copying didn't take place and no erroneous

>>         report was made.  I don't know how this myth that the

>>         developers persist in believing got started but it has never

>>         been true.

>>         Also, the NVDA add-on tells me accurately when copying and

>>         pasting takes place.  The person who wrote the add-on believes

>>         that it doesn't for some reason but I've been using it almost

>>         daily since it came out and I've almost never seen it make a

>>         mistake.

>>         I'm making a point of this because, since this can be

>>         accurately determined, it should be incorporated into NVDA and

>>         not left to an add-on, which a lot of people will never know

>>         exist.

>>         Gene

>>         ----- Original Message -----

>>         *From:* Quentin Christensen <mailto:quentin@...>

>>         *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 4:39 PM

>>         *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>         *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>         Just chiming in to give the visual perspective:

>>         In Notepad, when pressing control+s:

>>         - If the document has not been saved before, the "Save as"

>>         dialog appears and NVDA reports that.

>>         - If the document has been saved previously, Notepad saves it,

>>         and NVDA does not say anything (unless you have speak command

>>         keys on, in which case NVDA reports "control+s").  Notepad

>>         does put an asterisk at the start of the filename in the title

>>         bar when a document has been edited.  This disappears when the

>>         document is saved.  NVDA does read this asterisk when reading

>>         the title bar.

>> 

>>         In Word 365, when pressing control+s:

>>         - If the document has not been saved before, a "Save this

>>         file" window appears and NVDA reports that.

>>         - If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is

>>         enabled, nothing happens and NVDA does not report anything

>>         (again unless speak command keys is on to report

>>         "control+s").  With AutoSave on, the document is saved every

>>         time any key is pressed so control+s is not needed.

>>         - If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is

>>         not enabled, the visual response is again subtle.  When you

>>         open a document, or save it, the title bar notes "Filename -

>>         Saved".  Once you change it, the "Saved" disappears.  This

>>         gets reinstated when you save it.  There is currently a known

>>         issue, I believe with the way Office is exposing the title

>>         bar.  See: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10150

>> 

>>         Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting when a

>>         document is saved is not something we would be inclined to add

>>         to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a document had been saved.  I

>>         can see the usefulness of the functionality for some users (it

>>         reminds me of how when teaching email, people often want

>>         confirmation that the email has been sent, but many email

>>         clients don't give that).  For this reason, I would recommend

>>         it might be useful functionality for an add-on.  Possibly

>>         Damien Garwood, developer of the ClipSpeak add-on, might be

>>         interested in adding it.

>> 

>>         Kind regards

>> 

>>         Quentin.

>> 

>>         On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 6:14 AM Gene <gsasner@...

>>         <mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

>> 

>>             I checked, and the settings you are discussing are checked

>>             by default.  So people should hear this message in general.

>>             Gene

>>             ----- Original Message -----

>>             *From:* Gene via Groups.Io

>>             <mailto:gsasner@...>

>>             *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:08 PM

>>             *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>             *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>             It should be spoken and if it isn't without changing NVDA

>>             settings, the problem should be corrected.

>>             Perhaps this is a problem using NVDA in Windows 10. The

>>             message is spoken in Windows 7.

>>             Gene

>>             ----- Original Message -----

>> 

>>             *From:* hurrikennyandopo ...

>>             <mailto:hurrikennyandopo@...>

>>             *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:02 PM

>>             *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>             *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>             Hi

>> 

>> 

>>             If it is the message he wants to hear even though it is

>>             not spoken when in note pad and do the alt key + f4 key

>>             and get the message do you want to save which is not spoken.

>> 

>> 

>>             he can do the following in nvdas settings under simple

>>             review cursor make sure it is checked and make sure simple

>>             review mode is checked.

>> 

>> 

>>             If i want to hear the message when it comes up and says

>>             cancel save etc and it is not spoken out which does not

>>             worry me I can use object navigation to hear it in this

>>             case it is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric keypad then use

>>             nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the buttons are and save

>>             that way.

>> 

>> 

>>             Some of the material that is not read out can be accessed

>>             with object navigation like this example.

>> 

>> 

>>             If a document is already saved I do not need to hear it

>>             has been saved as I know it has been.

>> 

>> 

>>             Gene nz

>> 

>> 

>>             On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:

>>>             Window-eyes says that because it is told by the

>>>             developers, to say that word when that key combination is

>>>             pressed.  it isn't analyzing an action by the word

>>>             processor or text editor to know if a document was

>>>             saved.  It is just saying the word.  That is bad design

>>>             and Window-eyes probably says other things because the

>>>             screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a

>>>             certain key combination is pressed.

>>>             Frankly, you are worrying excessively about almost

>>>             nothing.  As I said, if you issue the save command twice,

>>>             it is almost 100 percent certain that the document has

>>>             been saved. And to emphasize the point, all this time,

>>>             you were saving documents and relying on Window-eyes to

>>>             tell you that they were saved when actually, all it was

>>>             doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed

>>>             to when you pressed that combination.  But that shows how

>>>             reliably your documents were being saved.

>>>             Gene

>>>             ----- Original Message -----

>>>             *From:* Grant Metcalf <mailto:the.gems@...>

>>>             *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM

>>>             *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>>             *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>>> 

>>>             *FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s command

>>>             it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is

>>>             helpful. Another thought that occured to me is to go to

>>>             the file name in the subdirectory and check the date and

>>>             time last saved, especially if i want to continue editing

>>>             the document.*

>>>             **

>>>             *Listening for His shout!*

>>>             *Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS*

>>             --

>>             Image NVDA certified expert

>>             Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other

>>             blindness related materials at

>>             http://www.accessibilitycentral.net

>> 

>>             To find out which library networks in New Zealand have a

>>             copy of the NVDA screen reader on them and there library

>>             locations please go to

>>             http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nz%20libraries%20with%20nvda.html

>>             To find a NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the

>>             following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The

>>             certification page contains the official list of NVDA

>>             certified individuals from around the world, who have sat

>>             and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>         --

>>         Quentin Christensen

>>         Training and Support Manager

>> 

>>         Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

>>         Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

>>         Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

>>         User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

>>         Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess

>>         Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>     --

>>     Quentin Christensen

>>     Training and Support Manager

>> 

>>     Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

>>     Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

>>     Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

>>     User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

>>     Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess

>>     Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> --

>> Quentin Christensen

>> Training and Support Manager

>> 

>> Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

>> Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

>> Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

>> User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess

>> Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

>

 

 

 

 

Re: NVDA adding and changing settings

Gene
 

I don't understand what the review cursor is controlled by the currently active review mode means.  Are you talking about in NVDA itself or something else?  for example, are you saying that in object navigation, you can only review the current object unless you move to another one?  It sounds as though you are saying that when in screen review, you still can't review the entire screen.  I believe I've seen this in some situations but isn't that some sort of limitation or problem with the program you are working with?
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 10:00 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

Hi,

Yes – each clipboard history item is an object. And no, review will not let you review the entire screen by default – the review cursor is controlled by the currently active review mode, and in case of some screens (including clipboard history), reviewing the entire screen isn’t possible via review cursor alone.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 7:45 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Are you in the review cursor?  Did you move from object navigation to the review cursor?  If you are in objecgt navigation, you are reviewing the text in one object.  if you are in review cursor, you are reviewing the entire screen.  Judging from your description, each item in the clipboard history is one object.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Gene

 

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 4:52 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,

No. Also note that for multi-line items, Windows (specifically, modern keyboard) may not show all text.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Griffith
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 2:43 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

I don’t appear to be able to do it here, unless I am misunderstanding Review cursor. I have in Desktop layout used numpad 7,9 and numpad + but all I can access is the one line with the NVDA announcement top at the start of the line and bottom at the end of the line.  I have just tried it with several paragraphs copied to the clipboard but can only retrieve the first line of each paragraph.

Are there other key combinations I should be using?

David Griffith

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Joseph Lee
Sent: 10 November 2019 22:12
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,

Actually, you can access multi-line clipboard text via review cursor.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Griffith
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 2:05 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

I agree  it has limited functionality – it also seems to display only one line of a clipboard clip.

However I guess it might be useful in an emergency as you can turn on NVDA’s Speech Viewer to accessibly access  the content displayed. Admittedly I have not  tried this  but 

David Griffith

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io
Sent: 10 November 2019 21:02
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,   I tried the windows v command,   and I did see 2 things but you

can not do anything with it I.E. You can't hit enter on it or do and

application key on it and get choices so really what is the point of it?

 

On 08/11/2019 06:13, Jaffar Sidek wrote:

> Agreed Quentin.  And for all of the issues experienced on the new

> windows update, the windows+V key combo which allows for exploring the

> history of what has been pasted to the clipboard is indeed revolutionary

> in my opinion.  The ability to retrieve one's forgotten word or code or

> password or text at any time cannot be underestimated.  Cheers!

>

> On 11/8/2019 2:04 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:

>> Re copy and paste etc, remember it's not just about being able to tell

>> with relative confidence that something has occurred, but also how

>> much effort it takes to find that out. I know the add-on seems to work

>> pretty well when I've used it, but maybe my machine is faster than

>> average and my tolerance for waiting for something to happen is greater.

>> 

>> For now, the functionality is available in an add-on.  Yes it could be

>> argued to bring it over to core, but then again, that would also take

>> someone's time instead of adding some other feature or fixing some

>> other bug - again, not a reason not to do it, but a reason to weigh up

>> against whether it is needed in core when it already exists as an add-on.

>> 

>> Actually, also just for the sake of adding it here, and since I was

>> just playing with it for another thread - Windows 10 has a clipboard

>> history - you can press WINDOWS+V and arrow through a list of recent

>> things copied to the clipboard. Arguably (for those on recent Windows

>> 10 builds) that could be a way of "checking" what has been copied if

>> you aren't sure.

>> 

>> 

>> On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 3:15 PM Gene <gsasner@...

>> <mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

>> 

>>     I didn't say you said that.  You said and this is a quote, for

>>     those with punctuation off, "Similar to announcing cut, copied or

>>     pasted, reporting when a document is saved is not something we

>>     would be inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a

>>     document had been saved."

>>     I see no evidence that copy, cut, and paste, can't be definitely

>>     determined.  I don't know what JAWS does or System Access, nor do

>>     I know how the add-on monitors to determine when text is copied

>>     and pasted.  But the reason the developers didn't want to put a

>>     copy and paste announcement in NVDA is because they said you can't

>>     tell when those actions are done, which is incorrect.  I'm saying

>>     that some how, when this was being considered, the developers

>>     believed it couldn't be done and that is stated in the Github

>>     (spelling) discussion.

>>     A copy and paste announcement is a different case from an e-mail

>>     sent announcement.  In the e-mail case, you get an indication from

>>     the program whether the message was sent.  When you copy, there is

>>     nothing that happens to confirm that you have done so.  Without

>>     such confirmation, very inconvenient things may occur.  Suppose

>>     you are copying or moving files.  You issue the copy command, move

>>     fifteen selected files, then issue the copy command after you have

>>     selected twenty more files.  You then paste in a different folder

>>     than the first fifteen. Imagine the annoyance when you find you

>>     have copied the first fifteen files over again.  You then have the

>>     annoyance of having to delete them, go back, copy the twenty files

>>     over again after you select them again, then paste them again.

>>     The same thing could happen with text.

>>     You can't assume that even if you are careful and know you have

>>     issued the copy command correctly, that it has worked.  I have

>>     exeecuted commands in the past that weren't carried out for some

>>     reason and I had to execute the command twice.  Before the add-on,

>>     I had inconveniences such as I described above now and then.  They

>>     could have been avoided if the add-on had been available or if a

>>     copy and paste announcement were built into NVDA.  I consider this

>>     an important function and it should be built into the screen-reader.

>>     My experience is that the add-on is accurate, but if others have

>>     experiences that it isn't as good as it ideally should be, then

>>     that could be worked on.

>>     But aside from my experience that the add-on works well, my

>>     experience with JAWS, which I used for years before NVDA existed,

>>     is that it is accurate.  I'm saying that the premise on which the

>>     function was rejected is incorrect.

>>     Gene

>>     ----- Original Message -----

>>     *From:* Quentin Christensen <mailto:quentin@...>

>>     *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 7:32 PM

>>     *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>     *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>     I didn't say you couldn't make an educational assumption about

>>     when copying and pasting has taken place, and from what I've

>>     experienced, the add-on does do an excellent job of this.  What I

>>     meant by us not being able to tell, was more that it would involve

>>     checking other things to determine whether something has been

>>     copied etc, rather than having something exposed from the program

>>     or Windows which states definitively "text has been copied" (or

>>     how much, or whatever).  The fact that the add-on does such a good

>>     job of it, could be an argument to put forward a case for adding

>>     it to NVDA core.  My understanding is that this is basically how

>>     other screen readers make the same assumptions about copying and

>>     pasting.

>> 

>>     Re knowing when an email has been sent.  In a way, it is the same

>>     thing, because you don't get a message saying it has been sent,

>>     but you know it has been sent because the draft email disappears

>>     when you give the instruction to send it, and there's no error

>>     message. Theoretically, NVDA could be made to give the user a

>>     message that the email had been sent.  You are right about

>>     teaching people to use those cues to know that it has been sent,

>>     my point was simply that in my experience, if you haven't got them

>>     familiar with the idea beforehand, probably the majority of

>>     people, if you just instruct them how to write an email and what

>>     button to press to send it, will immediately ask "did it send?"

>>     The merits of adding a confirmation to reassure new users, vs only

>>     notifying when there is an error could be debated either way, but

>>     that's the way it works, and largely, that is the same for copying

>>     text.

>> 

>>     We could do away with a lot of confirmation messages if we expect

>>     people to understand what commands they are giving the computer

>>     and the ways they behave.  Or, we could add in a lot more

>>     confirmation messages if we want to make computers more novice

>>     friendly.  Is the current system perfect?  Probably not.  Office,

>>     for instance, has changed to automatically saving documents.  Once

>>     you've saved a document once, in Word 2003, if you write some more

>>     text, and then press ALT+F4, Word will ask if you want to save the

>>     changes.  Word 365 will have already saved your changes and will

>>     simply close.  Which way is correct?  You could argue either way -

>>     and in fact, in the Office 365 model currenly, you NEVER get a

>>     confirmation your document has been saved.  But you can infer it

>>     by reading the title bar (for the purpose of the conversation,

>>     disregard the bug that currently prevents getting that

>>     information) and by the fact that you don't get prompted to save

>>     when you try to close Word.

>> 

>> 

>>     On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 10:48 AM Gene <gsasner@...

>>     <mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

>> 

>>         If an e-mail has been sent, the window closes and you are

>>         automatically placed where you were before you wrote, replied,

>>         to, or forwarded a message.  If a message isn't able to be

>>         sent, the program opens an error window which gains focus and

>>         you can't miss it. Therefore, a sent announcement is

>>         unnecessary and presents no information that isn't obvious if

>>         you instruct the person in what to look for.  Also, learning

>>         how to derive information from context and behavior is

>>         important.  You won't always have someone explaining

>>         everything in every program and every new program.

>>         But since you clearly indicate that sighted people get

>>         information when saving an already saved document again, this

>>         is a case where the screen-reader isn't presenting information

>>         that would be useful and that can't conveniently be inferred,

>>         as in the case of e-mail.

>>         And the idea that the developers got somehow that it can't be

>>         determined when copying and pasting take place is just plain

>>         wrong.  it isn't even debateable, it’s a matter of fact.  JAWS

>>         knows when, and System Access knows when.  I have specifically

>>         seen instances when copying didn't take place and no erroneous

>>         report was made.  I don't know how this myth that the

>>         developers persist in believing got started but it has never

>>         been true.

>>         Also, the NVDA add-on tells me accurately when copying and

>>         pasting takes place.  The person who wrote the add-on believes

>>         that it doesn't for some reason but I've been using it almost

>>         daily since it came out and I've almost never seen it make a

>>         mistake.

>>         I'm making a point of this because, since this can be

>>         accurately determined, it should be incorporated into NVDA and

>>         not left to an add-on, which a lot of people will never know

>>         exist.

>>         Gene

>>         ----- Original Message -----

>>         *From:* Quentin Christensen <mailto:quentin@...>

>>         *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 4:39 PM

>>         *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>         *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>         Just chiming in to give the visual perspective:

>>         In Notepad, when pressing control+s:

>>         - If the document has not been saved before, the "Save as"

>>         dialog appears and NVDA reports that.

>>         - If the document has been saved previously, Notepad saves it,

>>         and NVDA does not say anything (unless you have speak command

>>         keys on, in which case NVDA reports "control+s").  Notepad

>>         does put an asterisk at the start of the filename in the title

>>         bar when a document has been edited.  This disappears when the

>>         document is saved.  NVDA does read this asterisk when reading

>>         the title bar.

>> 

>>         In Word 365, when pressing control+s:

>>         - If the document has not been saved before, a "Save this

>>         file" window appears and NVDA reports that.

>>         - If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is

>>         enabled, nothing happens and NVDA does not report anything

>>         (again unless speak command keys is on to report

>>         "control+s").  With AutoSave on, the document is saved every

>>         time any key is pressed so control+s is not needed.

>>         - If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is

>>         not enabled, the visual response is again subtle.  When you

>>         open a document, or save it, the title bar notes "Filename -

>>         Saved".  Once you change it, the "Saved" disappears.  This

>>         gets reinstated when you save it.  There is currently a known

>>         issue, I believe with the way Office is exposing the title

>>         bar.  See: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10150

>> 

>>         Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting when a

>>         document is saved is not something we would be inclined to add

>>         to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a document had been saved.  I

>>         can see the usefulness of the functionality for some users (it

>>         reminds me of how when teaching email, people often want

>>         confirmation that the email has been sent, but many email

>>         clients don't give that).  For this reason, I would recommend

>>         it might be useful functionality for an add-on.  Possibly

>>         Damien Garwood, developer of the ClipSpeak add-on, might be

>>         interested in adding it.

>> 

>>         Kind regards

>> 

>>         Quentin.

>> 

>>         On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 6:14 AM Gene <gsasner@...

>>         <mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

>> 

>>             I checked, and the settings you are discussing are checked

>>             by default.  So people should hear this message in general.

>>             Gene

>>             ----- Original Message -----

>>             *From:* Gene via Groups.Io

>>             <mailto:gsasner@...>

>>             *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:08 PM

>>             *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>             *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>             It should be spoken and if it isn't without changing NVDA

>>             settings, the problem should be corrected.

>>             Perhaps this is a problem using NVDA in Windows 10. The

>>             message is spoken in Windows 7.

>>             Gene

>>             ----- Original Message -----

>> 

>>             *From:* hurrikennyandopo ...

>>             <mailto:hurrikennyandopo@...>

>>             *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:02 PM

>>             *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>             *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>             Hi

>> 

>> 

>>             If it is the message he wants to hear even though it is

>>             not spoken when in note pad and do the alt key + f4 key

>>             and get the message do you want to save which is not spoken.

>> 

>> 

>>             he can do the following in nvdas settings under simple

>>             review cursor make sure it is checked and make sure simple

>>             review mode is checked.

>> 

>> 

>>             If i want to hear the message when it comes up and says

>>             cancel save etc and it is not spoken out which does not

>>             worry me I can use object navigation to hear it in this

>>             case it is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric keypad then use

>>             nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the buttons are and save

>>             that way.

>> 

>> 

>>             Some of the material that is not read out can be accessed

>>             with object navigation like this example.

>> 

>> 

>>             If a document is already saved I do not need to hear it

>>             has been saved as I know it has been.

>> 

>> 

>>             Gene nz

>> 

>> 

>>             On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:

>>>             Window-eyes says that because it is told by the

>>>             developers, to say that word when that key combination is

>>>             pressed.  it isn't analyzing an action by the word

>>>             processor or text editor to know if a document was

>>>             saved.  It is just saying the word.  That is bad design

>>>             and Window-eyes probably says other things because the

>>>             screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a

>>>             certain key combination is pressed.

>>>             Frankly, you are worrying excessively about almost

>>>             nothing.  As I said, if you issue the save command twice,

>>>             it is almost 100 percent certain that the document has

>>>             been saved. And to emphasize the point, all this time,

>>>             you were saving documents and relying on Window-eyes to

>>>             tell you that they were saved when actually, all it was

>>>             doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed

>>>             to when you pressed that combination.  But that shows how

>>>             reliably your documents were being saved.

>>>             Gene

>>>             ----- Original Message -----

>>>             *From:* Grant Metcalf <mailto:the.gems@...>

>>>             *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM

>>>             *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>>             *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>>> 

>>>             *FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s command

>>>             it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is

>>>             helpful. Another thought that occured to me is to go to

>>>             the file name in the subdirectory and check the date and

>>>             time last saved, especially if i want to continue editing

>>>             the document.*

>>>             **

>>>             *Listening for His shout!*

>>>             *Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS*

>>             --

>>             Image NVDA certified expert

>>             Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other

>>             blindness related materials at

>>             http://www.accessibilitycentral.net

>> 

>>             To find out which library networks in New Zealand have a

>>             copy of the NVDA screen reader on them and there library

>>             locations please go to

>>             http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nz%20libraries%20with%20nvda.html

>>             To find a NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the

>>             following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The

>>             certification page contains the official list of NVDA

>>             certified individuals from around the world, who have sat

>>             and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>         --

>>         Quentin Christensen

>>         Training and Support Manager

>> 

>>         Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

>>         Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

>>         Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

>>         User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

>>         Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess

>>         Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>     --

>>     Quentin Christensen

>>     Training and Support Manager

>> 

>>     Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

>>     Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

>>     Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

>>     User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

>>     Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess

>>     Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> --

>> Quentin Christensen

>> Training and Support Manager

>> 

>> Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

>> Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

>> Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

>> User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess

>> Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

>

 

 

 

 

Re: NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,

Yes – each clipboard history item is an object. And no, review will not let you review the entire screen by default – the review cursor is controlled by the currently active review mode, and in case of some screens (including clipboard history), reviewing the entire screen isn’t possible via review cursor alone.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 7:45 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Are you in the review cursor?  Did you move from object navigation to the review cursor?  If you are in objecgt navigation, you are reviewing the text in one object.  if you are in review cursor, you are reviewing the entire screen.  Judging from your description, each item in the clipboard history is one object.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Gene

 

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 4:52 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,

No. Also note that for multi-line items, Windows (specifically, modern keyboard) may not show all text.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Griffith
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 2:43 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

I don’t appear to be able to do it here, unless I am misunderstanding Review cursor. I have in Desktop layout used numpad 7,9 and numpad + but all I can access is the one line with the NVDA announcement top at the start of the line and bottom at the end of the line.  I have just tried it with several paragraphs copied to the clipboard but can only retrieve the first line of each paragraph.

Are there other key combinations I should be using?

David Griffith

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Joseph Lee
Sent: 10 November 2019 22:12
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,

Actually, you can access multi-line clipboard text via review cursor.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Griffith
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 2:05 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

I agree  it has limited functionality – it also seems to display only one line of a clipboard clip.

However I guess it might be useful in an emergency as you can turn on NVDA’s Speech Viewer to accessibly access  the content displayed. Admittedly I have not  tried this  but 

David Griffith

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io
Sent: 10 November 2019 21:02
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,   I tried the windows v command,   and I did see 2 things but you

can not do anything with it I.E. You can't hit enter on it or do and

application key on it and get choices so really what is the point of it?

 

On 08/11/2019 06:13, Jaffar Sidek wrote:

> Agreed Quentin.  And for all of the issues experienced on the new

> windows update, the windows+V key combo which allows for exploring the

> history of what has been pasted to the clipboard is indeed revolutionary

> in my opinion.  The ability to retrieve one's forgotten word or code or

> password or text at any time cannot be underestimated.  Cheers!

>

> On 11/8/2019 2:04 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:

>> Re copy and paste etc, remember it's not just about being able to tell

>> with relative confidence that something has occurred, but also how

>> much effort it takes to find that out. I know the add-on seems to work

>> pretty well when I've used it, but maybe my machine is faster than

>> average and my tolerance for waiting for something to happen is greater.

>> 

>> For now, the functionality is available in an add-on.  Yes it could be

>> argued to bring it over to core, but then again, that would also take

>> someone's time instead of adding some other feature or fixing some

>> other bug - again, not a reason not to do it, but a reason to weigh up

>> against whether it is needed in core when it already exists as an add-on.

>> 

>> Actually, also just for the sake of adding it here, and since I was

>> just playing with it for another thread - Windows 10 has a clipboard

>> history - you can press WINDOWS+V and arrow through a list of recent

>> things copied to the clipboard. Arguably (for those on recent Windows

>> 10 builds) that could be a way of "checking" what has been copied if

>> you aren't sure.

>> 

>> 

>> On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 3:15 PM Gene <gsasner@...

>> <mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

>> 

>>     I didn't say you said that.  You said and this is a quote, for

>>     those with punctuation off, "Similar to announcing cut, copied or

>>     pasted, reporting when a document is saved is not something we

>>     would be inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a

>>     document had been saved."

>>     I see no evidence that copy, cut, and paste, can't be definitely

>>     determined.  I don't know what JAWS does or System Access, nor do

>>     I know how the add-on monitors to determine when text is copied

>>     and pasted.  But the reason the developers didn't want to put a

>>     copy and paste announcement in NVDA is because they said you can't

>>     tell when those actions are done, which is incorrect.  I'm saying

>>     that some how, when this was being considered, the developers

>>     believed it couldn't be done and that is stated in the Github

>>     (spelling) discussion.

>>     A copy and paste announcement is a different case from an e-mail

>>     sent announcement.  In the e-mail case, you get an indication from

>>     the program whether the message was sent.  When you copy, there is

>>     nothing that happens to confirm that you have done so.  Without

>>     such confirmation, very inconvenient things may occur.  Suppose

>>     you are copying or moving files.  You issue the copy command, move

>>     fifteen selected files, then issue the copy command after you have

>>     selected twenty more files.  You then paste in a different folder

>>     than the first fifteen. Imagine the annoyance when you find you

>>     have copied the first fifteen files over again.  You then have the

>>     annoyance of having to delete them, go back, copy the twenty files

>>     over again after you select them again, then paste them again.

>>     The same thing could happen with text.

>>     You can't assume that even if you are careful and know you have

>>     issued the copy command correctly, that it has worked.  I have

>>     exeecuted commands in the past that weren't carried out for some

>>     reason and I had to execute the command twice.  Before the add-on,

>>     I had inconveniences such as I described above now and then.  They

>>     could have been avoided if the add-on had been available or if a

>>     copy and paste announcement were built into NVDA.  I consider this

>>     an important function and it should be built into the screen-reader.

>>     My experience is that the add-on is accurate, but if others have

>>     experiences that it isn't as good as it ideally should be, then

>>     that could be worked on.

>>     But aside from my experience that the add-on works well, my

>>     experience with JAWS, which I used for years before NVDA existed,

>>     is that it is accurate.  I'm saying that the premise on which the

>>     function was rejected is incorrect.

>>     Gene

>>     ----- Original Message -----

>>     *From:* Quentin Christensen <mailto:quentin@...>

>>     *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 7:32 PM

>>     *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>     *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>     I didn't say you couldn't make an educational assumption about

>>     when copying and pasting has taken place, and from what I've

>>     experienced, the add-on does do an excellent job of this.  What I

>>     meant by us not being able to tell, was more that it would involve

>>     checking other things to determine whether something has been

>>     copied etc, rather than having something exposed from the program

>>     or Windows which states definitively "text has been copied" (or

>>     how much, or whatever).  The fact that the add-on does such a good

>>     job of it, could be an argument to put forward a case for adding

>>     it to NVDA core.  My understanding is that this is basically how

>>     other screen readers make the same assumptions about copying and

>>     pasting.

>> 

>>     Re knowing when an email has been sent.  In a way, it is the same

>>     thing, because you don't get a message saying it has been sent,

>>     but you know it has been sent because the draft email disappears

>>     when you give the instruction to send it, and there's no error

>>     message. Theoretically, NVDA could be made to give the user a

>>     message that the email had been sent.  You are right about

>>     teaching people to use those cues to know that it has been sent,

>>     my point was simply that in my experience, if you haven't got them

>>     familiar with the idea beforehand, probably the majority of

>>     people, if you just instruct them how to write an email and what

>>     button to press to send it, will immediately ask "did it send?"

>>     The merits of adding a confirmation to reassure new users, vs only

>>     notifying when there is an error could be debated either way, but

>>     that's the way it works, and largely, that is the same for copying

>>     text.

>> 

>>     We could do away with a lot of confirmation messages if we expect

>>     people to understand what commands they are giving the computer

>>     and the ways they behave.  Or, we could add in a lot more

>>     confirmation messages if we want to make computers more novice

>>     friendly.  Is the current system perfect?  Probably not.  Office,

>>     for instance, has changed to automatically saving documents.  Once

>>     you've saved a document once, in Word 2003, if you write some more

>>     text, and then press ALT+F4, Word will ask if you want to save the

>>     changes.  Word 365 will have already saved your changes and will

>>     simply close.  Which way is correct?  You could argue either way -

>>     and in fact, in the Office 365 model currenly, you NEVER get a

>>     confirmation your document has been saved.  But you can infer it

>>     by reading the title bar (for the purpose of the conversation,

>>     disregard the bug that currently prevents getting that

>>     information) and by the fact that you don't get prompted to save

>>     when you try to close Word.

>> 

>> 

>>     On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 10:48 AM Gene <gsasner@...

>>     <mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

>> 

>>         If an e-mail has been sent, the window closes and you are

>>         automatically placed where you were before you wrote, replied,

>>         to, or forwarded a message.  If a message isn't able to be

>>         sent, the program opens an error window which gains focus and

>>         you can't miss it. Therefore, a sent announcement is

>>         unnecessary and presents no information that isn't obvious if

>>         you instruct the person in what to look for.  Also, learning

>>         how to derive information from context and behavior is

>>         important.  You won't always have someone explaining

>>         everything in every program and every new program.

>>         But since you clearly indicate that sighted people get

>>         information when saving an already saved document again, this

>>         is a case where the screen-reader isn't presenting information

>>         that would be useful and that can't conveniently be inferred,

>>         as in the case of e-mail.

>>         And the idea that the developers got somehow that it can't be

>>         determined when copying and pasting take place is just plain

>>         wrong.  it isn't even debateable, it’s a matter of fact.  JAWS

>>         knows when, and System Access knows when.  I have specifically

>>         seen instances when copying didn't take place and no erroneous

>>         report was made.  I don't know how this myth that the

>>         developers persist in believing got started but it has never

>>         been true.

>>         Also, the NVDA add-on tells me accurately when copying and

>>         pasting takes place.  The person who wrote the add-on believes

>>         that it doesn't for some reason but I've been using it almost

>>         daily since it came out and I've almost never seen it make a

>>         mistake.

>>         I'm making a point of this because, since this can be

>>         accurately determined, it should be incorporated into NVDA and

>>         not left to an add-on, which a lot of people will never know

>>         exist.

>>         Gene

>>         ----- Original Message -----

>>         *From:* Quentin Christensen <mailto:quentin@...>

>>         *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 4:39 PM

>>         *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>         *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>         Just chiming in to give the visual perspective:

>>         In Notepad, when pressing control+s:

>>         - If the document has not been saved before, the "Save as"

>>         dialog appears and NVDA reports that.

>>         - If the document has been saved previously, Notepad saves it,

>>         and NVDA does not say anything (unless you have speak command

>>         keys on, in which case NVDA reports "control+s").  Notepad

>>         does put an asterisk at the start of the filename in the title

>>         bar when a document has been edited.  This disappears when the

>>         document is saved.  NVDA does read this asterisk when reading

>>         the title bar.

>> 

>>         In Word 365, when pressing control+s:

>>         - If the document has not been saved before, a "Save this

>>         file" window appears and NVDA reports that.

>>         - If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is

>>         enabled, nothing happens and NVDA does not report anything

>>         (again unless speak command keys is on to report

>>         "control+s").  With AutoSave on, the document is saved every

>>         time any key is pressed so control+s is not needed.

>>         - If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is

>>         not enabled, the visual response is again subtle.  When you

>>         open a document, or save it, the title bar notes "Filename -

>>         Saved".  Once you change it, the "Saved" disappears.  This

>>         gets reinstated when you save it.  There is currently a known

>>         issue, I believe with the way Office is exposing the title

>>         bar.  See: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10150

>> 

>>         Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting when a

>>         document is saved is not something we would be inclined to add

>>         to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a document had been saved.  I

>>         can see the usefulness of the functionality for some users (it

>>         reminds me of how when teaching email, people often want

>>         confirmation that the email has been sent, but many email

>>         clients don't give that).  For this reason, I would recommend

>>         it might be useful functionality for an add-on.  Possibly

>>         Damien Garwood, developer of the ClipSpeak add-on, might be

>>         interested in adding it.

>> 

>>         Kind regards

>> 

>>         Quentin.

>> 

>>         On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 6:14 AM Gene <gsasner@...

>>         <mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

>> 

>>             I checked, and the settings you are discussing are checked

>>             by default.  So people should hear this message in general.

>>             Gene

>>             ----- Original Message -----

>>             *From:* Gene via Groups.Io

>>             <mailto:gsasner@...>

>>             *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:08 PM

>>             *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>             *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>             It should be spoken and if it isn't without changing NVDA

>>             settings, the problem should be corrected.

>>             Perhaps this is a problem using NVDA in Windows 10. The

>>             message is spoken in Windows 7.

>>             Gene

>>             ----- Original Message -----

>> 

>>             *From:* hurrikennyandopo ...

>>             <mailto:hurrikennyandopo@...>

>>             *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:02 PM

>>             *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>             *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>             Hi

>> 

>> 

>>             If it is the message he wants to hear even though it is

>>             not spoken when in note pad and do the alt key + f4 key

>>             and get the message do you want to save which is not spoken.

>> 

>> 

>>             he can do the following in nvdas settings under simple

>>             review cursor make sure it is checked and make sure simple

>>             review mode is checked.

>> 

>> 

>>             If i want to hear the message when it comes up and says

>>             cancel save etc and it is not spoken out which does not

>>             worry me I can use object navigation to hear it in this

>>             case it is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric keypad then use

>>             nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the buttons are and save

>>             that way.

>> 

>> 

>>             Some of the material that is not read out can be accessed

>>             with object navigation like this example.

>> 

>> 

>>             If a document is already saved I do not need to hear it

>>             has been saved as I know it has been.

>> 

>> 

>>             Gene nz

>> 

>> 

>>             On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:

>>>             Window-eyes says that because it is told by the

>>>             developers, to say that word when that key combination is

>>>             pressed.  it isn't analyzing an action by the word

>>>             processor or text editor to know if a document was

>>>             saved.  It is just saying the word.  That is bad design

>>>             and Window-eyes probably says other things because the

>>>             screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a

>>>             certain key combination is pressed.

>>>             Frankly, you are worrying excessively about almost

>>>             nothing.  As I said, if you issue the save command twice,

>>>             it is almost 100 percent certain that the document has

>>>             been saved. And to emphasize the point, all this time,

>>>             you were saving documents and relying on Window-eyes to

>>>             tell you that they were saved when actually, all it was

>>>             doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed

>>>             to when you pressed that combination.  But that shows how

>>>             reliably your documents were being saved.

>>>             Gene

>>>             ----- Original Message -----

>>>             *From:* Grant Metcalf <mailto:the.gems@...>

>>>             *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM

>>>             *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>>             *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>>> 

>>>             *FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s command

>>>             it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is

>>>             helpful. Another thought that occured to me is to go to

>>>             the file name in the subdirectory and check the date and

>>>             time last saved, especially if i want to continue editing

>>>             the document.*

>>>             **

>>>             *Listening for His shout!*

>>>             *Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS*

>>             --

>>             Image NVDA certified expert

>>             Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other

>>             blindness related materials at

>>             http://www.accessibilitycentral.net

>> 

>>             To find out which library networks in New Zealand have a

>>             copy of the NVDA screen reader on them and there library

>>             locations please go to

>>             http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nz%20libraries%20with%20nvda.html

>>             To find a NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the

>>             following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The

>>             certification page contains the official list of NVDA

>>             certified individuals from around the world, who have sat

>>             and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>         --

>>         Quentin Christensen

>>         Training and Support Manager

>> 

>>         Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

>>         Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

>>         Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

>>         User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

>>         Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess

>>         Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>     --

>>     Quentin Christensen

>>     Training and Support Manager

>> 

>>     Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

>>     Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

>>     Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

>>     User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

>>     Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess

>>     Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> --

>> Quentin Christensen

>> Training and Support Manager

>> 

>> Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

>> Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

>> Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

>> User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess

>> Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

>

 

 

 

 

Re: Announcement of Tracked Changes in Word

Quentin Christensen
 

Good news,

This features has been added to the upcoming 2019.3.  It's available now in Alpha snapshot builds if you don't mind testing a pre-release version:  https://www.nvaccess.org/files/nvda/snapshots/

Kind regards

Quentin.


On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 5:06 AM Robert Kingett <kingettr@...> wrote:

I am looking for a way to turn this announcement on as well. But I don't think it exists yet.



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Re: NVDA adding and changing settings

Gene
 

Are you in the review cursor?  Did you move from object navigation to the review cursor?  If you are in objecgt navigation, you are reviewing the text in one object.  if you are in review cursor, you are reviewing the entire screen.  Judging from your description, each item in the clipboard history is one object.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Gene

From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 4:52 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

Hi,

No. Also note that for multi-line items, Windows (specifically, modern keyboard) may not show all text.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Griffith
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 2:43 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

I don’t appear to be able to do it here, unless I am misunderstanding Review cursor. I have in Desktop layout used numpad 7,9 and numpad + but all I can access is the one line with the NVDA announcement top at the start of the line and bottom at the end of the line.  I have just tried it with several paragraphs copied to the clipboard but can only retrieve the first line of each paragraph.

Are there other key combinations I should be using?

David Griffith

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Joseph Lee
Sent: 10 November 2019 22:12
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,

Actually, you can access multi-line clipboard text via review cursor.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Griffith
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 2:05 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

I agree  it has limited functionality – it also seems to display only one line of a clipboard clip.

However I guess it might be useful in an emergency as you can turn on NVDA’s Speech Viewer to accessibly access  the content displayed. Admittedly I have not  tried this  but 

David Griffith

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io
Sent: 10 November 2019 21:02
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,   I tried the windows v command,   and I did see 2 things but you

can not do anything with it I.E. You can't hit enter on it or do and

application key on it and get choices so really what is the point of it?

 

On 08/11/2019 06:13, Jaffar Sidek wrote:

> Agreed Quentin.  And for all of the issues experienced on the new

> windows update, the windows+V key combo which allows for exploring the

> history of what has been pasted to the clipboard is indeed revolutionary

> in my opinion.  The ability to retrieve one's forgotten word or code or

> password or text at any time cannot be underestimated.  Cheers!

>

> On 11/8/2019 2:04 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:

>> Re copy and paste etc, remember it's not just about being able to tell

>> with relative confidence that something has occurred, but also how

>> much effort it takes to find that out. I know the add-on seems to work

>> pretty well when I've used it, but maybe my machine is faster than

>> average and my tolerance for waiting for something to happen is greater.

>> 

>> For now, the functionality is available in an add-on.  Yes it could be

>> argued to bring it over to core, but then again, that would also take

>> someone's time instead of adding some other feature or fixing some

>> other bug - again, not a reason not to do it, but a reason to weigh up

>> against whether it is needed in core when it already exists as an add-on.

>> 

>> Actually, also just for the sake of adding it here, and since I was

>> just playing with it for another thread - Windows 10 has a clipboard

>> history - you can press WINDOWS+V and arrow through a list of recent

>> things copied to the clipboard. Arguably (for those on recent Windows

>> 10 builds) that could be a way of "checking" what has been copied if

>> you aren't sure.

>> 

>> 

>> On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 3:15 PM Gene <gsasner@...

>> <mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

>> 

>>     I didn't say you said that.  You said and this is a quote, for

>>     those with punctuation off, "Similar to announcing cut, copied or

>>     pasted, reporting when a document is saved is not something we

>>     would be inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a

>>     document had been saved."

>>     I see no evidence that copy, cut, and paste, can't be definitely

>>     determined.  I don't know what JAWS does or System Access, nor do

>>     I know how the add-on monitors to determine when text is copied

>>     and pasted.  But the reason the developers didn't want to put a

>>     copy and paste announcement in NVDA is because they said you can't

>>     tell when those actions are done, which is incorrect.  I'm saying

>>     that some how, when this was being considered, the developers

>>     believed it couldn't be done and that is stated in the Github

>>     (spelling) discussion.

>>     A copy and paste announcement is a different case from an e-mail

>>     sent announcement.  In the e-mail case, you get an indication from

>>     the program whether the message was sent.  When you copy, there is

>>     nothing that happens to confirm that you have done so.  Without

>>     such confirmation, very inconvenient things may occur.  Suppose

>>     you are copying or moving files.  You issue the copy command, move

>>     fifteen selected files, then issue the copy command after you have

>>     selected twenty more files.  You then paste in a different folder

>>     than the first fifteen. Imagine the annoyance when you find you

>>     have copied the first fifteen files over again.  You then have the

>>     annoyance of having to delete them, go back, copy the twenty files

>>     over again after you select them again, then paste them again.

>>     The same thing could happen with text.

>>     You can't assume that even if you are careful and know you have

>>     issued the copy command correctly, that it has worked.  I have

>>     exeecuted commands in the past that weren't carried out for some

>>     reason and I had to execute the command twice.  Before the add-on,

>>     I had inconveniences such as I described above now and then.  They

>>     could have been avoided if the add-on had been available or if a

>>     copy and paste announcement were built into NVDA.  I consider this

>>     an important function and it should be built into the screen-reader.

>>     My experience is that the add-on is accurate, but if others have

>>     experiences that it isn't as good as it ideally should be, then

>>     that could be worked on.

>>     But aside from my experience that the add-on works well, my

>>     experience with JAWS, which I used for years before NVDA existed,

>>     is that it is accurate.  I'm saying that the premise on which the

>>     function was rejected is incorrect.

>>     Gene

>>     ----- Original Message -----

>>     *From:* Quentin Christensen <mailto:quentin@...>

>>     *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 7:32 PM

>>     *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>     *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>     I didn't say you couldn't make an educational assumption about

>>     when copying and pasting has taken place, and from what I've

>>     experienced, the add-on does do an excellent job of this.  What I

>>     meant by us not being able to tell, was more that it would involve

>>     checking other things to determine whether something has been

>>     copied etc, rather than having something exposed from the program

>>     or Windows which states definitively "text has been copied" (or

>>     how much, or whatever).  The fact that the add-on does such a good

>>     job of it, could be an argument to put forward a case for adding

>>     it to NVDA core.  My understanding is that this is basically how

>>     other screen readers make the same assumptions about copying and

>>     pasting.

>> 

>>     Re knowing when an email has been sent.  In a way, it is the same

>>     thing, because you don't get a message saying it has been sent,

>>     but you know it has been sent because the draft email disappears

>>     when you give the instruction to send it, and there's no error

>>     message. Theoretically, NVDA could be made to give the user a

>>     message that the email had been sent.  You are right about

>>     teaching people to use those cues to know that it has been sent,

>>     my point was simply that in my experience, if you haven't got them

>>     familiar with the idea beforehand, probably the majority of

>>     people, if you just instruct them how to write an email and what

>>     button to press to send it, will immediately ask "did it send?"

>>     The merits of adding a confirmation to reassure new users, vs only

>>     notifying when there is an error could be debated either way, but

>>     that's the way it works, and largely, that is the same for copying

>>     text.

>> 

>>     We could do away with a lot of confirmation messages if we expect

>>     people to understand what commands they are giving the computer

>>     and the ways they behave.  Or, we could add in a lot more

>>     confirmation messages if we want to make computers more novice

>>     friendly.  Is the current system perfect?  Probably not.  Office,

>>     for instance, has changed to automatically saving documents.  Once

>>     you've saved a document once, in Word 2003, if you write some more

>>     text, and then press ALT+F4, Word will ask if you want to save the

>>     changes.  Word 365 will have already saved your changes and will

>>     simply close.  Which way is correct?  You could argue either way -

>>     and in fact, in the Office 365 model currenly, you NEVER get a

>>     confirmation your document has been saved.  But you can infer it

>>     by reading the title bar (for the purpose of the conversation,

>>     disregard the bug that currently prevents getting that

>>     information) and by the fact that you don't get prompted to save

>>     when you try to close Word.

>> 

>> 

>>     On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 10:48 AM Gene <gsasner@...

>>     <mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

>> 

>>         If an e-mail has been sent, the window closes and you are

>>         automatically placed where you were before you wrote, replied,

>>         to, or forwarded a message.  If a message isn't able to be

>>         sent, the program opens an error window which gains focus and

>>         you can't miss it. Therefore, a sent announcement is

>>         unnecessary and presents no information that isn't obvious if

>>         you instruct the person in what to look for.  Also, learning

>>         how to derive information from context and behavior is

>>         important.  You won't always have someone explaining

>>         everything in every program and every new program.

>>         But since you clearly indicate that sighted people get

>>         information when saving an already saved document again, this

>>         is a case where the screen-reader isn't presenting information

>>         that would be useful and that can't conveniently be inferred,

>>         as in the case of e-mail.

>>         And the idea that the developers got somehow that it can't be

>>         determined when copying and pasting take place is just plain

>>         wrong.  it isn't even debateable, it’s a matter of fact.  JAWS

>>         knows when, and System Access knows when.  I have specifically

>>         seen instances when copying didn't take place and no erroneous

>>         report was made.  I don't know how this myth that the

>>         developers persist in believing got started but it has never

>>         been true.

>>         Also, the NVDA add-on tells me accurately when copying and

>>         pasting takes place.  The person who wrote the add-on believes

>>         that it doesn't for some reason but I've been using it almost

>>         daily since it came out and I've almost never seen it make a

>>         mistake.

>>         I'm making a point of this because, since this can be

>>         accurately determined, it should be incorporated into NVDA and

>>         not left to an add-on, which a lot of people will never know

>>         exist.

>>         Gene

>>         ----- Original Message -----

>>         *From:* Quentin Christensen <mailto:quentin@...>

>>         *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 4:39 PM

>>         *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>         *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>         Just chiming in to give the visual perspective:

>>         In Notepad, when pressing control+s:

>>         - If the document has not been saved before, the "Save as"

>>         dialog appears and NVDA reports that.

>>         - If the document has been saved previously, Notepad saves it,

>>         and NVDA does not say anything (unless you have speak command

>>         keys on, in which case NVDA reports "control+s").  Notepad

>>         does put an asterisk at the start of the filename in the title

>>         bar when a document has been edited.  This disappears when the

>>         document is saved.  NVDA does read this asterisk when reading

>>         the title bar.

>> 

>>         In Word 365, when pressing control+s:

>>         - If the document has not been saved before, a "Save this

>>         file" window appears and NVDA reports that.

>>         - If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is

>>         enabled, nothing happens and NVDA does not report anything

>>         (again unless speak command keys is on to report

>>         "control+s").  With AutoSave on, the document is saved every

>>         time any key is pressed so control+s is not needed.

>>         - If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is

>>         not enabled, the visual response is again subtle.  When you

>>         open a document, or save it, the title bar notes "Filename -

>>         Saved".  Once you change it, the "Saved" disappears.  This

>>         gets reinstated when you save it.  There is currently a known

>>         issue, I believe with the way Office is exposing the title

>>         bar.  See: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10150

>> 

>>         Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting when a

>>         document is saved is not something we would be inclined to add

>>         to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a document had been saved.  I

>>         can see the usefulness of the functionality for some users (it

>>         reminds me of how when teaching email, people often want

>>         confirmation that the email has been sent, but many email

>>         clients don't give that).  For this reason, I would recommend

>>         it might be useful functionality for an add-on.  Possibly

>>         Damien Garwood, developer of the ClipSpeak add-on, might be

>>         interested in adding it.

>> 

>>         Kind regards

>> 

>>         Quentin.

>> 

>>         On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 6:14 AM Gene <gsasner@...

>>         <mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

>> 

>>             I checked, and the settings you are discussing are checked

>>             by default.  So people should hear this message in general.

>>             Gene

>>             ----- Original Message -----

>>             *From:* Gene via Groups.Io

>>             <mailto:gsasner@...>

>>             *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:08 PM

>>             *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>             *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>             It should be spoken and if it isn't without changing NVDA

>>             settings, the problem should be corrected.

>>             Perhaps this is a problem using NVDA in Windows 10. The

>>             message is spoken in Windows 7.

>>             Gene

>>             ----- Original Message -----

>> 

>>             *From:* hurrikennyandopo ...

>>             <mailto:hurrikennyandopo@...>

>>             *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:02 PM

>>             *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>             *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>             Hi

>> 

>> 

>>             If it is the message he wants to hear even though it is

>>             not spoken when in note pad and do the alt key + f4 key

>>             and get the message do you want to save which is not spoken.

>> 

>> 

>>             he can do the following in nvdas settings under simple

>>             review cursor make sure it is checked and make sure simple

>>             review mode is checked.

>> 

>> 

>>             If i want to hear the message when it comes up and says

>>             cancel save etc and it is not spoken out which does not

>>             worry me I can use object navigation to hear it in this

>>             case it is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric keypad then use

>>             nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the buttons are and save

>>             that way.

>> 

>> 

>>             Some of the material that is not read out can be accessed

>>             with object navigation like this example.

>> 

>> 

>>             If a document is already saved I do not need to hear it

>>             has been saved as I know it has been.

>> 

>> 

>>             Gene nz

>> 

>> 

>>             On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:

>>>             Window-eyes says that because it is told by the

>>>             developers, to say that word when that key combination is

>>>             pressed.  it isn't analyzing an action by the word

>>>             processor or text editor to know if a document was

>>>             saved.  It is just saying the word.  That is bad design

>>>             and Window-eyes probably says other things because the

>>>             screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a

>>>             certain key combination is pressed.

>>>             Frankly, you are worrying excessively about almost

>>>             nothing.  As I said, if you issue the save command twice,

>>>             it is almost 100 percent certain that the document has

>>>             been saved. And to emphasize the point, all this time,

>>>             you were saving documents and relying on Window-eyes to

>>>             tell you that they were saved when actually, all it was

>>>             doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed

>>>             to when you pressed that combination.  But that shows how

>>>             reliably your documents were being saved.

>>>             Gene

>>>             ----- Original Message -----

>>>             *From:* Grant Metcalf <mailto:the.gems@...>

>>>             *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM

>>>             *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>>             *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>>> 

>>>             *FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s command

>>>             it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is

>>>             helpful. Another thought that occured to me is to go to

>>>             the file name in the subdirectory and check the date and

>>>             time last saved, especially if i want to continue editing

>>>             the document.*

>>>             **

>>>             *Listening for His shout!*

>>>             *Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS*

>>             --

>>             Image NVDA certified expert

>>             Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other

>>             blindness related materials at

>>             http://www.accessibilitycentral.net

>> 

>>             To find out which library networks in New Zealand have a

>>             copy of the NVDA screen reader on them and there library

>>             locations please go to

>>             http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nz%20libraries%20with%20nvda.html

>>             To find a NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the

>>             following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The

>>             certification page contains the official list of NVDA

>>             certified individuals from around the world, who have sat

>>             and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>         --

>>         Quentin Christensen

>>         Training and Support Manager

>> 

>>         Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

>>         Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

>>         Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

>>         User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

>>         Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess

>>         Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>     --

>>     Quentin Christensen

>>     Training and Support Manager

>> 

>>     Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

>>     Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

>>     Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

>>     User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

>>     Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess

>>     Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> --

>> Quentin Christensen

>> Training and Support Manager

>> 

>> Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

>> Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

>> Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

>> User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess

>> Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

>

 

 

 

 

Re: NVDACon 2019

derek riemer
 

Please send it in whatever format you would like. You can send multiple formats if you like as well, and we'll post it with the session on the recorded bits, and put it on the schedule as a handout for your session.

On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 6:33 PM Deborah Armstrong <debee@...> wrote:
I am giving the lightning talk on learning foreign languages.
I put together a handout to accompany the talk. This way I can discuss a procedure, such as installing a new keyboard in general, but the handout has the exact steps so listeners won't need to take notes. It also means I won't have to weigh the talk down with tedious exact steps to accomplish a task.

How do I distribute the handout to the audience? Do you want it posted to the list here, or can someone put it on the NVDA wiki? Do you want it in Word, text with mark-down or HTML?
--Debee



--
Derek Riemer
Improving the world one byte at a time!        ⠠⠊⠍⠏⠗⠕⠧⠬ ⠮ ⠸⠺ ⠐⠕ ⠃⠽⠞⠑ ⠁⠞ ⠁ ⠐⠞⠖
•    Accessibility enthusiast.
•    Proud user of the NVDA screen reader.
•    Open source enthusiast.
•    Skier.

•    Personal website: https://derekriemer.com




Re: NVDACon 2019

 

I am giving the lightning talk on learning foreign languages.
I put together a handout to accompany the talk. This way I can discuss a procedure, such as installing a new keyboard in general, but the handout has the exact steps so listeners won't need to take notes. It also means I won't have to weigh the talk down with tedious exact steps to accomplish a task.

How do I distribute the handout to the audience? Do you want it posted to the list here, or can someone put it on the NVDA wiki? Do you want it in Word, text with mark-down or HTML?
--Debee

Re: Hims braille displays issue

Ibrahim Abedrabbo
 

NVDA version 2019/2 works fine here with Braille Sense Plus on windows 10.  I have my Braille display set on automatic in the NVDA settings.

 

Regards,

Ibrahim

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Patrick ZAJDA via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 1:06 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Hims braille displays issue

 

Hello,

 

Some users have reported me they cannot use their Hims braille display using USB with NVDA.

 

For someone it is with a BrailleSense, for the second person it is a Brailleedge.

When they connect the display to by USB, NVDA display a dialog because it is not recognized.

 

The Hims USB driver is installed.

 

A precision, it worked before NVDA 2019.1 for the brailleedge.

 

Does someone has encountered the same issue and does someone has succeeded in resolve it to be able to use with NVDA 2019.2.1 ?

 

Best regards,

 

--
Patrick ZAJDA

Re: NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,

No. Also note that for multi-line items, Windows (specifically, modern keyboard) may not show all text.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Griffith
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 2:43 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

I don’t appear to be able to do it here, unless I am misunderstanding Review cursor. I have in Desktop layout used numpad 7,9 and numpad + but all I can access is the one line with the NVDA announcement top at the start of the line and bottom at the end of the line.  I have just tried it with several paragraphs copied to the clipboard but can only retrieve the first line of each paragraph.

Are there other key combinations I should be using?

David Griffith

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Joseph Lee
Sent: 10 November 2019 22:12
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,

Actually, you can access multi-line clipboard text via review cursor.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Griffith
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 2:05 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

I agree  it has limited functionality – it also seems to display only one line of a clipboard clip.

However I guess it might be useful in an emergency as you can turn on NVDA’s Speech Viewer to accessibly access  the content displayed. Admittedly I have not  tried this  but 

David Griffith

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io
Sent: 10 November 2019 21:02
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,   I tried the windows v command,   and I did see 2 things but you

can not do anything with it I.E. You can't hit enter on it or do and

application key on it and get choices so really what is the point of it?

 

On 08/11/2019 06:13, Jaffar Sidek wrote:

> Agreed Quentin.  And for all of the issues experienced on the new

> windows update, the windows+V key combo which allows for exploring the

> history of what has been pasted to the clipboard is indeed revolutionary

> in my opinion.  The ability to retrieve one's forgotten word or code or

> password or text at any time cannot be underestimated.  Cheers!

>

> On 11/8/2019 2:04 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:

>> Re copy and paste etc, remember it's not just about being able to tell

>> with relative confidence that something has occurred, but also how

>> much effort it takes to find that out. I know the add-on seems to work

>> pretty well when I've used it, but maybe my machine is faster than

>> average and my tolerance for waiting for something to happen is greater.

>> 

>> For now, the functionality is available in an add-on.  Yes it could be

>> argued to bring it over to core, but then again, that would also take

>> someone's time instead of adding some other feature or fixing some

>> other bug - again, not a reason not to do it, but a reason to weigh up

>> against whether it is needed in core when it already exists as an add-on.

>> 

>> Actually, also just for the sake of adding it here, and since I was

>> just playing with it for another thread - Windows 10 has a clipboard

>> history - you can press WINDOWS+V and arrow through a list of recent

>> things copied to the clipboard. Arguably (for those on recent Windows

>> 10 builds) that could be a way of "checking" what has been copied if

>> you aren't sure.

>> 

>> 

>> On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 3:15 PM Gene <gsasner@...

>> <mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

>> 

>>     I didn't say you said that.  You said and this is a quote, for

>>     those with punctuation off, "Similar to announcing cut, copied or

>>     pasted, reporting when a document is saved is not something we

>>     would be inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a

>>     document had been saved."

>>     I see no evidence that copy, cut, and paste, can't be definitely

>>     determined.  I don't know what JAWS does or System Access, nor do

>>     I know how the add-on monitors to determine when text is copied

>>     and pasted.  But the reason the developers didn't want to put a

>>     copy and paste announcement in NVDA is because they said you can't

>>     tell when those actions are done, which is incorrect.  I'm saying

>>     that some how, when this was being considered, the developers

>>     believed it couldn't be done and that is stated in the Github

>>     (spelling) discussion.

>>     A copy and paste announcement is a different case from an e-mail

>>     sent announcement.  In the e-mail case, you get an indication from

>>     the program whether the message was sent.  When you copy, there is

>>     nothing that happens to confirm that you have done so.  Without

>>     such confirmation, very inconvenient things may occur.  Suppose

>>     you are copying or moving files.  You issue the copy command, move

>>     fifteen selected files, then issue the copy command after you have

>>     selected twenty more files.  You then paste in a different folder

>>     than the first fifteen. Imagine the annoyance when you find you

>>     have copied the first fifteen files over again.  You then have the

>>     annoyance of having to delete them, go back, copy the twenty files

>>     over again after you select them again, then paste them again.

>>     The same thing could happen with text.

>>     You can't assume that even if you are careful and know you have

>>     issued the copy command correctly, that it has worked.  I have

>>     exeecuted commands in the past that weren't carried out for some

>>     reason and I had to execute the command twice.  Before the add-on,

>>     I had inconveniences such as I described above now and then.  They

>>     could have been avoided if the add-on had been available or if a

>>     copy and paste announcement were built into NVDA.  I consider this

>>     an important function and it should be built into the screen-reader.

>>     My experience is that the add-on is accurate, but if others have

>>     experiences that it isn't as good as it ideally should be, then

>>     that could be worked on.

>>     But aside from my experience that the add-on works well, my

>>     experience with JAWS, which I used for years before NVDA existed,

>>     is that it is accurate.  I'm saying that the premise on which the

>>     function was rejected is incorrect.

>>     Gene

>>     ----- Original Message -----

>>     *From:* Quentin Christensen <mailto:quentin@...>

>>     *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 7:32 PM

>>     *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>     *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>     I didn't say you couldn't make an educational assumption about

>>     when copying and pasting has taken place, and from what I've

>>     experienced, the add-on does do an excellent job of this.  What I

>>     meant by us not being able to tell, was more that it would involve

>>     checking other things to determine whether something has been

>>     copied etc, rather than having something exposed from the program

>>     or Windows which states definitively "text has been copied" (or

>>     how much, or whatever).  The fact that the add-on does such a good

>>     job of it, could be an argument to put forward a case for adding

>>     it to NVDA core.  My understanding is that this is basically how

>>     other screen readers make the same assumptions about copying and

>>     pasting.

>> 

>>     Re knowing when an email has been sent.  In a way, it is the same

>>     thing, because you don't get a message saying it has been sent,

>>     but you know it has been sent because the draft email disappears

>>     when you give the instruction to send it, and there's no error

>>     message. Theoretically, NVDA could be made to give the user a

>>     message that the email had been sent.  You are right about

>>     teaching people to use those cues to know that it has been sent,

>>     my point was simply that in my experience, if you haven't got them

>>     familiar with the idea beforehand, probably the majority of

>>     people, if you just instruct them how to write an email and what

>>     button to press to send it, will immediately ask "did it send?"

>>     The merits of adding a confirmation to reassure new users, vs only

>>     notifying when there is an error could be debated either way, but

>>     that's the way it works, and largely, that is the same for copying

>>     text.

>> 

>>     We could do away with a lot of confirmation messages if we expect

>>     people to understand what commands they are giving the computer

>>     and the ways they behave.  Or, we could add in a lot more

>>     confirmation messages if we want to make computers more novice

>>     friendly.  Is the current system perfect?  Probably not.  Office,

>>     for instance, has changed to automatically saving documents.  Once

>>     you've saved a document once, in Word 2003, if you write some more

>>     text, and then press ALT+F4, Word will ask if you want to save the

>>     changes.  Word 365 will have already saved your changes and will

>>     simply close.  Which way is correct?  You could argue either way -

>>     and in fact, in the Office 365 model currenly, you NEVER get a

>>     confirmation your document has been saved.  But you can infer it

>>     by reading the title bar (for the purpose of the conversation,

>>     disregard the bug that currently prevents getting that

>>     information) and by the fact that you don't get prompted to save

>>     when you try to close Word.

>> 

>> 

>>     On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 10:48 AM Gene <gsasner@...

>>     <mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

>> 

>>         If an e-mail has been sent, the window closes and you are

>>         automatically placed where you were before you wrote, replied,

>>         to, or forwarded a message.  If a message isn't able to be

>>         sent, the program opens an error window which gains focus and

>>         you can't miss it. Therefore, a sent announcement is

>>         unnecessary and presents no information that isn't obvious if

>>         you instruct the person in what to look for.  Also, learning

>>         how to derive information from context and behavior is

>>         important.  You won't always have someone explaining

>>         everything in every program and every new program.

>>         But since you clearly indicate that sighted people get

>>         information when saving an already saved document again, this

>>         is a case where the screen-reader isn't presenting information

>>         that would be useful and that can't conveniently be inferred,

>>         as in the case of e-mail.

>>         And the idea that the developers got somehow that it can't be

>>         determined when copying and pasting take place is just plain

>>         wrong.  it isn't even debateable, it’s a matter of fact.  JAWS

>>         knows when, and System Access knows when.  I have specifically

>>         seen instances when copying didn't take place and no erroneous

>>         report was made.  I don't know how this myth that the

>>         developers persist in believing got started but it has never

>>         been true.

>>         Also, the NVDA add-on tells me accurately when copying and

>>         pasting takes place.  The person who wrote the add-on believes

>>         that it doesn't for some reason but I've been using it almost

>>         daily since it came out and I've almost never seen it make a

>>         mistake.

>>         I'm making a point of this because, since this can be

>>         accurately determined, it should be incorporated into NVDA and

>>         not left to an add-on, which a lot of people will never know

>>         exist.

>>         Gene

>>         ----- Original Message -----

>>         *From:* Quentin Christensen <mailto:quentin@...>

>>         *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 4:39 PM

>>         *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>         *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>         Just chiming in to give the visual perspective:

>>         In Notepad, when pressing control+s:

>>         - If the document has not been saved before, the "Save as"

>>         dialog appears and NVDA reports that.

>>         - If the document has been saved previously, Notepad saves it,

>>         and NVDA does not say anything (unless you have speak command

>>         keys on, in which case NVDA reports "control+s").  Notepad

>>         does put an asterisk at the start of the filename in the title

>>         bar when a document has been edited.  This disappears when the

>>         document is saved.  NVDA does read this asterisk when reading

>>         the title bar.

>> 

>>         In Word 365, when pressing control+s:

>>         - If the document has not been saved before, a "Save this

>>         file" window appears and NVDA reports that.

>>         - If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is

>>         enabled, nothing happens and NVDA does not report anything

>>         (again unless speak command keys is on to report

>>         "control+s").  With AutoSave on, the document is saved every

>>         time any key is pressed so control+s is not needed.

>>         - If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is

>>         not enabled, the visual response is again subtle.  When you

>>         open a document, or save it, the title bar notes "Filename -

>>         Saved".  Once you change it, the "Saved" disappears.  This

>>         gets reinstated when you save it.  There is currently a known

>>         issue, I believe with the way Office is exposing the title

>>         bar.  See: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10150

>> 

>>         Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting when a

>>         document is saved is not something we would be inclined to add

>>         to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a document had been saved.  I

>>         can see the usefulness of the functionality for some users (it

>>         reminds me of how when teaching email, people often want

>>         confirmation that the email has been sent, but many email

>>         clients don't give that).  For this reason, I would recommend

>>         it might be useful functionality for an add-on.  Possibly

>>         Damien Garwood, developer of the ClipSpeak add-on, might be

>>         interested in adding it.

>> 

>>         Kind regards

>> 

>>         Quentin.

>> 

>>         On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 6:14 AM Gene <gsasner@...

>>         <mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

>> 

>>             I checked, and the settings you are discussing are checked

>>             by default.  So people should hear this message in general.

>>             Gene

>>             ----- Original Message -----

>>             *From:* Gene via Groups.Io

>>             <mailto:gsasner@...>

>>             *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:08 PM

>>             *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>             *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>             It should be spoken and if it isn't without changing NVDA

>>             settings, the problem should be corrected.

>>             Perhaps this is a problem using NVDA in Windows 10. The

>>             message is spoken in Windows 7.

>>             Gene

>>             ----- Original Message -----

>> 

>>             *From:* hurrikennyandopo ...

>>             <mailto:hurrikennyandopo@...>

>>             *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:02 PM

>>             *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>             *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>             Hi

>> 

>> 

>>             If it is the message he wants to hear even though it is

>>             not spoken when in note pad and do the alt key + f4 key

>>             and get the message do you want to save which is not spoken.

>> 

>> 

>>             he can do the following in nvdas settings under simple

>>             review cursor make sure it is checked and make sure simple

>>             review mode is checked.

>> 

>> 

>>             If i want to hear the message when it comes up and says

>>             cancel save etc and it is not spoken out which does not

>>             worry me I can use object navigation to hear it in this

>>             case it is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric keypad then use

>>             nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the buttons are and save

>>             that way.

>> 

>> 

>>             Some of the material that is not read out can be accessed

>>             with object navigation like this example.

>> 

>> 

>>             If a document is already saved I do not need to hear it

>>             has been saved as I know it has been.

>> 

>> 

>>             Gene nz

>> 

>> 

>>             On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:

>>>             Window-eyes says that because it is told by the

>>>             developers, to say that word when that key combination is

>>>             pressed.  it isn't analyzing an action by the word

>>>             processor or text editor to know if a document was

>>>             saved.  It is just saying the word.  That is bad design

>>>             and Window-eyes probably says other things because the

>>>             screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a

>>>             certain key combination is pressed.

>>>             Frankly, you are worrying excessively about almost

>>>             nothing.  As I said, if you issue the save command twice,

>>>             it is almost 100 percent certain that the document has

>>>             been saved. And to emphasize the point, all this time,

>>>             you were saving documents and relying on Window-eyes to

>>>             tell you that they were saved when actually, all it was

>>>             doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed

>>>             to when you pressed that combination.  But that shows how

>>>             reliably your documents were being saved.

>>>             Gene

>>>             ----- Original Message -----

>>>             *From:* Grant Metcalf <mailto:the.gems@...>

>>>             *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM

>>>             *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>>             *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>>> 

>>>             *FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s command

>>>             it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is

>>>             helpful. Another thought that occured to me is to go to

>>>             the file name in the subdirectory and check the date and

>>>             time last saved, especially if i want to continue editing

>>>             the document.*

>>>             **

>>>             *Listening for His shout!*

>>>             *Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS*

>>             --

>>             Image NVDA certified expert

>>             Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other

>>             blindness related materials at

>>             http://www.accessibilitycentral.net

>> 

>>             To find out which library networks in New Zealand have a

>>             copy of the NVDA screen reader on them and there library

>>             locations please go to

>>             http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nz%20libraries%20with%20nvda.html

>>             To find a NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the

>>             following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The

>>             certification page contains the official list of NVDA

>>             certified individuals from around the world, who have sat

>>             and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>         --

>>         Quentin Christensen

>>         Training and Support Manager

>> 

>>         Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

>>         Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

>>         Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

>>         User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

>>         Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess

>>         Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>     --

>>     Quentin Christensen

>>     Training and Support Manager

>> 

>>     Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

>>     Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

>>     Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

>>     User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

>>     Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess

>>     Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> --

>> Quentin Christensen

>> Training and Support Manager

>> 

>> Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

>> Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

>> Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

>> User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess

>> Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

>

 

 

 

 

Re: NVDA adding and changing settings

David Griffith
 

I don’t appear to be able to do it here, unless I am misunderstanding Review cursor. I have in Desktop layout used numpad 7,9 and numpad + but all I can access is the one line with the NVDA announcement top at the start of the line and bottom at the end of the line.  I have just tried it with several paragraphs copied to the clipboard but can only retrieve the first line of each paragraph.

Are there other key combinations I should be using?

David Griffith

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Joseph Lee
Sent: 10 November 2019 22:12
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,

Actually, you can access multi-line clipboard text via review cursor.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Griffith
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 2:05 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

I agree  it has limited functionality – it also seems to display only one line of a clipboard clip.

However I guess it might be useful in an emergency as you can turn on NVDA’s Speech Viewer to accessibly access  the content displayed. Admittedly I have not  tried this  but 

David Griffith

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io
Sent: 10 November 2019 21:02
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,   I tried the windows v command,   and I did see 2 things but you

can not do anything with it I.E. You can't hit enter on it or do and

application key on it and get choices so really what is the point of it?

 

On 08/11/2019 06:13, Jaffar Sidek wrote:

> Agreed Quentin.  And for all of the issues experienced on the new

> windows update, the windows+V key combo which allows for exploring the

> history of what has been pasted to the clipboard is indeed revolutionary

> in my opinion.  The ability to retrieve one's forgotten word or code or

> password or text at any time cannot be underestimated.  Cheers!

>

> On 11/8/2019 2:04 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:

>> Re copy and paste etc, remember it's not just about being able to tell

>> with relative confidence that something has occurred, but also how

>> much effort it takes to find that out. I know the add-on seems to work

>> pretty well when I've used it, but maybe my machine is faster than

>> average and my tolerance for waiting for something to happen is greater.

>> 

>> For now, the functionality is available in an add-on.  Yes it could be

>> argued to bring it over to core, but then again, that would also take

>> someone's time instead of adding some other feature or fixing some

>> other bug - again, not a reason not to do it, but a reason to weigh up

>> against whether it is needed in core when it already exists as an add-on.

>> 

>> Actually, also just for the sake of adding it here, and since I was

>> just playing with it for another thread - Windows 10 has a clipboard

>> history - you can press WINDOWS+V and arrow through a list of recent

>> things copied to the clipboard. Arguably (for those on recent Windows

>> 10 builds) that could be a way of "checking" what has been copied if

>> you aren't sure.

>> 

>> 

>> On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 3:15 PM Gene <gsasner@...

>> <mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

>> 

>>     I didn't say you said that.  You said and this is a quote, for

>>     those with punctuation off, "Similar to announcing cut, copied or

>>     pasted, reporting when a document is saved is not something we

>>     would be inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a

>>     document had been saved."

>>     I see no evidence that copy, cut, and paste, can't be definitely

>>     determined.  I don't know what JAWS does or System Access, nor do

>>     I know how the add-on monitors to determine when text is copied

>>     and pasted.  But the reason the developers didn't want to put a

>>     copy and paste announcement in NVDA is because they said you can't

>>     tell when those actions are done, which is incorrect.  I'm saying

>>     that some how, when this was being considered, the developers

>>     believed it couldn't be done and that is stated in the Github

>>     (spelling) discussion.

>>     A copy and paste announcement is a different case from an e-mail

>>     sent announcement.  In the e-mail case, you get an indication from

>>     the program whether the message was sent.  When you copy, there is

>>     nothing that happens to confirm that you have done so.  Without

>>     such confirmation, very inconvenient things may occur.  Suppose

>>     you are copying or moving files.  You issue the copy command, move

>>     fifteen selected files, then issue the copy command after you have

>>     selected twenty more files.  You then paste in a different folder

>>     than the first fifteen. Imagine the annoyance when you find you

>>     have copied the first fifteen files over again.  You then have the

>>     annoyance of having to delete them, go back, copy the twenty files

>>     over again after you select them again, then paste them again.

>>     The same thing could happen with text.

>>     You can't assume that even if you are careful and know you have

>>     issued the copy command correctly, that it has worked.  I have

>>     exeecuted commands in the past that weren't carried out for some

>>     reason and I had to execute the command twice.  Before the add-on,

>>     I had inconveniences such as I described above now and then.  They

>>     could have been avoided if the add-on had been available or if a

>>     copy and paste announcement were built into NVDA.  I consider this

>>     an important function and it should be built into the screen-reader.

>>     My experience is that the add-on is accurate, but if others have

>>     experiences that it isn't as good as it ideally should be, then

>>     that could be worked on.

>>     But aside from my experience that the add-on works well, my

>>     experience with JAWS, which I used for years before NVDA existed,

>>     is that it is accurate.  I'm saying that the premise on which the

>>     function was rejected is incorrect.

>>     Gene

>>     ----- Original Message -----

>>     *From:* Quentin Christensen <mailto:quentin@...>

>>     *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 7:32 PM

>>     *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>     *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>     I didn't say you couldn't make an educational assumption about

>>     when copying and pasting has taken place, and from what I've

>>     experienced, the add-on does do an excellent job of this.  What I

>>     meant by us not being able to tell, was more that it would involve

>>     checking other things to determine whether something has been

>>     copied etc, rather than having something exposed from the program

>>     or Windows which states definitively "text has been copied" (or

>>     how much, or whatever).  The fact that the add-on does such a good

>>     job of it, could be an argument to put forward a case for adding

>>     it to NVDA core.  My understanding is that this is basically how

>>     other screen readers make the same assumptions about copying and

>>     pasting.

>> 

>>     Re knowing when an email has been sent.  In a way, it is the same

>>     thing, because you don't get a message saying it has been sent,

>>     but you know it has been sent because the draft email disappears

>>     when you give the instruction to send it, and there's no error

>>     message. Theoretically, NVDA could be made to give the user a

>>     message that the email had been sent.  You are right about

>>     teaching people to use those cues to know that it has been sent,

>>     my point was simply that in my experience, if you haven't got them

>>     familiar with the idea beforehand, probably the majority of

>>     people, if you just instruct them how to write an email and what

>>     button to press to send it, will immediately ask "did it send?"

>>     The merits of adding a confirmation to reassure new users, vs only

>>     notifying when there is an error could be debated either way, but

>>     that's the way it works, and largely, that is the same for copying

>>     text.

>> 

>>     We could do away with a lot of confirmation messages if we expect

>>     people to understand what commands they are giving the computer

>>     and the ways they behave.  Or, we could add in a lot more

>>     confirmation messages if we want to make computers more novice

>>     friendly.  Is the current system perfect?  Probably not.  Office,

>>     for instance, has changed to automatically saving documents.  Once

>>     you've saved a document once, in Word 2003, if you write some more

>>     text, and then press ALT+F4, Word will ask if you want to save the

>>     changes.  Word 365 will have already saved your changes and will

>>     simply close.  Which way is correct?  You could argue either way -

>>     and in fact, in the Office 365 model currenly, you NEVER get a

>>     confirmation your document has been saved.  But you can infer it

>>     by reading the title bar (for the purpose of the conversation,

>>     disregard the bug that currently prevents getting that

>>     information) and by the fact that you don't get prompted to save

>>     when you try to close Word.

>> 

>> 

>>     On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 10:48 AM Gene <gsasner@...

>>     <mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

>> 

>>         If an e-mail has been sent, the window closes and you are

>>         automatically placed where you were before you wrote, replied,

>>         to, or forwarded a message.  If a message isn't able to be

>>         sent, the program opens an error window which gains focus and

>>         you can't miss it. Therefore, a sent announcement is

>>         unnecessary and presents no information that isn't obvious if

>>         you instruct the person in what to look for.  Also, learning

>>         how to derive information from context and behavior is

>>         important.  You won't always have someone explaining

>>         everything in every program and every new program.

>>         But since you clearly indicate that sighted people get

>>         information when saving an already saved document again, this

>>         is a case where the screen-reader isn't presenting information

>>         that would be useful and that can't conveniently be inferred,

>>         as in the case of e-mail.

>>         And the idea that the developers got somehow that it can't be

>>         determined when copying and pasting take place is just plain

>>         wrong.  it isn't even debateable, it’s a matter of fact.  JAWS

>>         knows when, and System Access knows when.  I have specifically

>>         seen instances when copying didn't take place and no erroneous

>>         report was made.  I don't know how this myth that the

>>         developers persist in believing got started but it has never

>>         been true.

>>         Also, the NVDA add-on tells me accurately when copying and

>>         pasting takes place.  The person who wrote the add-on believes

>>         that it doesn't for some reason but I've been using it almost

>>         daily since it came out and I've almost never seen it make a

>>         mistake.

>>         I'm making a point of this because, since this can be

>>         accurately determined, it should be incorporated into NVDA and

>>         not left to an add-on, which a lot of people will never know

>>         exist.

>>         Gene

>>         ----- Original Message -----

>>         *From:* Quentin Christensen <mailto:quentin@...>

>>         *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 4:39 PM

>>         *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>         *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>         Just chiming in to give the visual perspective:

>>         In Notepad, when pressing control+s:

>>         - If the document has not been saved before, the "Save as"

>>         dialog appears and NVDA reports that.

>>         - If the document has been saved previously, Notepad saves it,

>>         and NVDA does not say anything (unless you have speak command

>>         keys on, in which case NVDA reports "control+s").  Notepad

>>         does put an asterisk at the start of the filename in the title

>>         bar when a document has been edited.  This disappears when the

>>         document is saved.  NVDA does read this asterisk when reading

>>         the title bar.

>> 

>>         In Word 365, when pressing control+s:

>>         - If the document has not been saved before, a "Save this

>>         file" window appears and NVDA reports that.

>>         - If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is

>>         enabled, nothing happens and NVDA does not report anything

>>         (again unless speak command keys is on to report

>>         "control+s").  With AutoSave on, the document is saved every

>>         time any key is pressed so control+s is not needed.

>>         - If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is

>>         not enabled, the visual response is again subtle.  When you

>>         open a document, or save it, the title bar notes "Filename -

>>         Saved".  Once you change it, the "Saved" disappears.  This

>>         gets reinstated when you save it.  There is currently a known

>>         issue, I believe with the way Office is exposing the title

>>         bar.  See: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10150

>> 

>>         Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting when a

>>         document is saved is not something we would be inclined to add

>>         to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a document had been saved.  I

>>         can see the usefulness of the functionality for some users (it

>>         reminds me of how when teaching email, people often want

>>         confirmation that the email has been sent, but many email

>>         clients don't give that).  For this reason, I would recommend

>>         it might be useful functionality for an add-on.  Possibly

>>         Damien Garwood, developer of the ClipSpeak add-on, might be

>>         interested in adding it.

>> 

>>         Kind regards

>> 

>>         Quentin.

>> 

>>         On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 6:14 AM Gene <gsasner@...

>>         <mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

>> 

>>             I checked, and the settings you are discussing are checked

>>             by default.  So people should hear this message in general.

>>             Gene

>>             ----- Original Message -----

>>             *From:* Gene via Groups.Io

>>             <mailto:gsasner@...>

>>             *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:08 PM

>>             *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>             *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>             It should be spoken and if it isn't without changing NVDA

>>             settings, the problem should be corrected.

>>             Perhaps this is a problem using NVDA in Windows 10. The

>>             message is spoken in Windows 7.

>>             Gene

>>             ----- Original Message -----

>> 

>>             *From:* hurrikennyandopo ...

>>             <mailto:hurrikennyandopo@...>

>>             *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:02 PM

>>             *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>             *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>             Hi

>> 

>> 

>>             If it is the message he wants to hear even though it is

>>             not spoken when in note pad and do the alt key + f4 key

>>             and get the message do you want to save which is not spoken.

>> 

>> 

>>             he can do the following in nvdas settings under simple

>>             review cursor make sure it is checked and make sure simple

>>             review mode is checked.

>> 

>> 

>>             If i want to hear the message when it comes up and says

>>             cancel save etc and it is not spoken out which does not

>>             worry me I can use object navigation to hear it in this

>>             case it is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric keypad then use

>>             nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the buttons are and save

>>             that way.

>> 

>> 

>>             Some of the material that is not read out can be accessed

>>             with object navigation like this example.

>> 

>> 

>>             If a document is already saved I do not need to hear it

>>             has been saved as I know it has been.

>> 

>> 

>>             Gene nz

>> 

>> 

>>             On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:

>>>             Window-eyes says that because it is told by the

>>>             developers, to say that word when that key combination is

>>>             pressed.  it isn't analyzing an action by the word

>>>             processor or text editor to know if a document was

>>>             saved.  It is just saying the word.  That is bad design

>>>             and Window-eyes probably says other things because the

>>>             screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a

>>>             certain key combination is pressed.

>>>             Frankly, you are worrying excessively about almost

>>>             nothing.  As I said, if you issue the save command twice,

>>>             it is almost 100 percent certain that the document has

>>>             been saved. And to emphasize the point, all this time,

>>>             you were saving documents and relying on Window-eyes to

>>>             tell you that they were saved when actually, all it was

>>>             doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed

>>>             to when you pressed that combination.  But that shows how

>>>             reliably your documents were being saved.

>>>             Gene

>>>             ----- Original Message -----

>>>             *From:* Grant Metcalf <mailto:the.gems@...>

>>>             *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM

>>>             *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>>             *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>>> 

>>>             *FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s command

>>>             it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is

>>>             helpful. Another thought that occured to me is to go to

>>>             the file name in the subdirectory and check the date and

>>>             time last saved, especially if i want to continue editing

>>>             the document.*

>>>             **

>>>             *Listening for His shout!*

>>>             *Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS*

>>             --

>>             Image NVDA certified expert

>>             Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other

>>             blindness related materials at

>>             http://www.accessibilitycentral.net

>> 

>>             To find out which library networks in New Zealand have a

>>             copy of the NVDA screen reader on them and there library

>>             locations please go to

>>             http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nz%20libraries%20with%20nvda.html

>>             To find a NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the

>>             following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The

>>             certification page contains the official list of NVDA

>>             certified individuals from around the world, who have sat

>>             and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>         --

>>         Quentin Christensen

>>         Training and Support Manager

>> 

>>         Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

>>         Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

>>         Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

>>         User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

>>         Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess

>>         Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>     --

>>     Quentin Christensen

>>     Training and Support Manager

>> 

>>     Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

>>     Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

>>     Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

>>     User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

>>     Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess

>>     Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> --

>> Quentin Christensen

>> Training and Support Manager

>> 

>> Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

>> Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

>> Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

>> User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess

>> Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

>

 

 

 

 

Re: NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,

Actually, you can access multi-line clipboard text via review cursor.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Griffith
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 2:05 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

I agree  it has limited functionality – it also seems to display only one line of a clipboard clip.

However I guess it might be useful in an emergency as you can turn on NVDA’s Speech Viewer to accessibly access  the content displayed. Admittedly I have not  tried this  but 

David Griffith

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io
Sent: 10 November 2019 21:02
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,   I tried the windows v command,   and I did see 2 things but you

can not do anything with it I.E. You can't hit enter on it or do and

application key on it and get choices so really what is the point of it?

 

On 08/11/2019 06:13, Jaffar Sidek wrote:

> Agreed Quentin.  And for all of the issues experienced on the new

> windows update, the windows+V key combo which allows for exploring the

> history of what has been pasted to the clipboard is indeed revolutionary

> in my opinion.  The ability to retrieve one's forgotten word or code or

> password or text at any time cannot be underestimated.  Cheers!

>

> On 11/8/2019 2:04 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:

>> Re copy and paste etc, remember it's not just about being able to tell

>> with relative confidence that something has occurred, but also how

>> much effort it takes to find that out. I know the add-on seems to work

>> pretty well when I've used it, but maybe my machine is faster than

>> average and my tolerance for waiting for something to happen is greater.

>> 

>> For now, the functionality is available in an add-on.  Yes it could be

>> argued to bring it over to core, but then again, that would also take

>> someone's time instead of adding some other feature or fixing some

>> other bug - again, not a reason not to do it, but a reason to weigh up

>> against whether it is needed in core when it already exists as an add-on.

>> 

>> Actually, also just for the sake of adding it here, and since I was

>> just playing with it for another thread - Windows 10 has a clipboard

>> history - you can press WINDOWS+V and arrow through a list of recent

>> things copied to the clipboard. Arguably (for those on recent Windows

>> 10 builds) that could be a way of "checking" what has been copied if

>> you aren't sure.

>> 

>> 

>> On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 3:15 PM Gene <gsasner@...

>> <mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

>> 

>>     I didn't say you said that.  You said and this is a quote, for

>>     those with punctuation off, "Similar to announcing cut, copied or

>>     pasted, reporting when a document is saved is not something we

>>     would be inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a

>>     document had been saved."

>>     I see no evidence that copy, cut, and paste, can't be definitely

>>     determined.  I don't know what JAWS does or System Access, nor do

>>     I know how the add-on monitors to determine when text is copied

>>     and pasted.  But the reason the developers didn't want to put a

>>     copy and paste announcement in NVDA is because they said you can't

>>     tell when those actions are done, which is incorrect.  I'm saying

>>     that some how, when this was being considered, the developers

>>     believed it couldn't be done and that is stated in the Github

>>     (spelling) discussion.

>>     A copy and paste announcement is a different case from an e-mail

>>     sent announcement.  In the e-mail case, you get an indication from

>>     the program whether the message was sent.  When you copy, there is

>>     nothing that happens to confirm that you have done so.  Without

>>     such confirmation, very inconvenient things may occur.  Suppose

>>     you are copying or moving files.  You issue the copy command, move

>>     fifteen selected files, then issue the copy command after you have

>>     selected twenty more files.  You then paste in a different folder

>>     than the first fifteen. Imagine the annoyance when you find you

>>     have copied the first fifteen files over again.  You then have the

>>     annoyance of having to delete them, go back, copy the twenty files

>>     over again after you select them again, then paste them again.

>>     The same thing could happen with text.

>>     You can't assume that even if you are careful and know you have

>>     issued the copy command correctly, that it has worked.  I have

>>     exeecuted commands in the past that weren't carried out for some

>>     reason and I had to execute the command twice.  Before the add-on,

>>     I had inconveniences such as I described above now and then.  They

>>     could have been avoided if the add-on had been available or if a

>>     copy and paste announcement were built into NVDA.  I consider this

>>     an important function and it should be built into the screen-reader.

>>     My experience is that the add-on is accurate, but if others have

>>     experiences that it isn't as good as it ideally should be, then

>>     that could be worked on.

>>     But aside from my experience that the add-on works well, my

>>     experience with JAWS, which I used for years before NVDA existed,

>>     is that it is accurate.  I'm saying that the premise on which the

>>     function was rejected is incorrect.

>>     Gene

>>     ----- Original Message -----

>>     *From:* Quentin Christensen <mailto:quentin@...>

>>     *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 7:32 PM

>>     *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>     *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>     I didn't say you couldn't make an educational assumption about

>>     when copying and pasting has taken place, and from what I've

>>     experienced, the add-on does do an excellent job of this.  What I

>>     meant by us not being able to tell, was more that it would involve

>>     checking other things to determine whether something has been

>>     copied etc, rather than having something exposed from the program

>>     or Windows which states definitively "text has been copied" (or

>>     how much, or whatever).  The fact that the add-on does such a good

>>     job of it, could be an argument to put forward a case for adding

>>     it to NVDA core.  My understanding is that this is basically how

>>     other screen readers make the same assumptions about copying and

>>     pasting.

>> 

>>     Re knowing when an email has been sent.  In a way, it is the same

>>     thing, because you don't get a message saying it has been sent,

>>     but you know it has been sent because the draft email disappears

>>     when you give the instruction to send it, and there's no error

>>     message. Theoretically, NVDA could be made to give the user a

>>     message that the email had been sent.  You are right about

>>     teaching people to use those cues to know that it has been sent,

>>     my point was simply that in my experience, if you haven't got them

>>     familiar with the idea beforehand, probably the majority of

>>     people, if you just instruct them how to write an email and what

>>     button to press to send it, will immediately ask "did it send?"

>>     The merits of adding a confirmation to reassure new users, vs only

>>     notifying when there is an error could be debated either way, but

>>     that's the way it works, and largely, that is the same for copying

>>     text.

>> 

>>     We could do away with a lot of confirmation messages if we expect

>>     people to understand what commands they are giving the computer

>>     and the ways they behave.  Or, we could add in a lot more

>>     confirmation messages if we want to make computers more novice

>>     friendly.  Is the current system perfect?  Probably not.  Office,

>>     for instance, has changed to automatically saving documents.  Once

>>     you've saved a document once, in Word 2003, if you write some more

>>     text, and then press ALT+F4, Word will ask if you want to save the

>>     changes.  Word 365 will have already saved your changes and will

>>     simply close.  Which way is correct?  You could argue either way -

>>     and in fact, in the Office 365 model currenly, you NEVER get a

>>     confirmation your document has been saved.  But you can infer it

>>     by reading the title bar (for the purpose of the conversation,

>>     disregard the bug that currently prevents getting that

>>     information) and by the fact that you don't get prompted to save

>>     when you try to close Word.

>> 

>> 

>>     On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 10:48 AM Gene <gsasner@...

>>     <mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

>> 

>>         If an e-mail has been sent, the window closes and you are

>>         automatically placed where you were before you wrote, replied,

>>         to, or forwarded a message.  If a message isn't able to be

>>         sent, the program opens an error window which gains focus and

>>         you can't miss it. Therefore, a sent announcement is

>>         unnecessary and presents no information that isn't obvious if

>>         you instruct the person in what to look for.  Also, learning

>>         how to derive information from context and behavior is

>>         important.  You won't always have someone explaining

>>         everything in every program and every new program.

>>         But since you clearly indicate that sighted people get

>>         information when saving an already saved document again, this

>>         is a case where the screen-reader isn't presenting information

>>         that would be useful and that can't conveniently be inferred,

>>         as in the case of e-mail.

>>         And the idea that the developers got somehow that it can't be

>>         determined when copying and pasting take place is just plain

>>         wrong.  it isn't even debateable, it’s a matter of fact.  JAWS

>>         knows when, and System Access knows when.  I have specifically

>>         seen instances when copying didn't take place and no erroneous

>>         report was made.  I don't know how this myth that the

>>         developers persist in believing got started but it has never

>>         been true.

>>         Also, the NVDA add-on tells me accurately when copying and

>>         pasting takes place.  The person who wrote the add-on believes

>>         that it doesn't for some reason but I've been using it almost

>>         daily since it came out and I've almost never seen it make a

>>         mistake.

>>         I'm making a point of this because, since this can be

>>         accurately determined, it should be incorporated into NVDA and

>>         not left to an add-on, which a lot of people will never know

>>         exist.

>>         Gene

>>         ----- Original Message -----

>>         *From:* Quentin Christensen <mailto:quentin@...>

>>         *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 4:39 PM

>>         *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>         *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>         Just chiming in to give the visual perspective:

>>         In Notepad, when pressing control+s:

>>         - If the document has not been saved before, the "Save as"

>>         dialog appears and NVDA reports that.

>>         - If the document has been saved previously, Notepad saves it,

>>         and NVDA does not say anything (unless you have speak command

>>         keys on, in which case NVDA reports "control+s").  Notepad

>>         does put an asterisk at the start of the filename in the title

>>         bar when a document has been edited.  This disappears when the

>>         document is saved.  NVDA does read this asterisk when reading

>>         the title bar.

>> 

>>         In Word 365, when pressing control+s:

>>         - If the document has not been saved before, a "Save this

>>         file" window appears and NVDA reports that.

>>         - If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is

>>         enabled, nothing happens and NVDA does not report anything

>>         (again unless speak command keys is on to report

>>         "control+s").  With AutoSave on, the document is saved every

>>         time any key is pressed so control+s is not needed.

>>         - If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is

>>         not enabled, the visual response is again subtle.  When you

>>         open a document, or save it, the title bar notes "Filename -

>>         Saved".  Once you change it, the "Saved" disappears.  This

>>         gets reinstated when you save it.  There is currently a known

>>         issue, I believe with the way Office is exposing the title

>>         bar.  See: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10150

>> 

>>         Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting when a

>>         document is saved is not something we would be inclined to add

>>         to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a document had been saved.  I

>>         can see the usefulness of the functionality for some users (it

>>         reminds me of how when teaching email, people often want

>>         confirmation that the email has been sent, but many email

>>         clients don't give that).  For this reason, I would recommend

>>         it might be useful functionality for an add-on.  Possibly

>>         Damien Garwood, developer of the ClipSpeak add-on, might be

>>         interested in adding it.

>> 

>>         Kind regards

>> 

>>         Quentin.

>> 

>>         On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 6:14 AM Gene <gsasner@...

>>         <mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

>> 

>>             I checked, and the settings you are discussing are checked

>>             by default.  So people should hear this message in general.

>>             Gene

>>             ----- Original Message -----

>>             *From:* Gene via Groups.Io

>>             <mailto:gsasner@...>

>>             *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:08 PM

>>             *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>             *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>             It should be spoken and if it isn't without changing NVDA

>>             settings, the problem should be corrected.

>>             Perhaps this is a problem using NVDA in Windows 10. The

>>             message is spoken in Windows 7.

>>             Gene

>>             ----- Original Message -----

>> 

>>             *From:* hurrikennyandopo ...

>>             <mailto:hurrikennyandopo@...>

>>             *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:02 PM

>>             *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>             *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>             Hi

>> 

>> 

>>             If it is the message he wants to hear even though it is

>>             not spoken when in note pad and do the alt key + f4 key

>>             and get the message do you want to save which is not spoken.

>> 

>> 

>>             he can do the following in nvdas settings under simple

>>             review cursor make sure it is checked and make sure simple

>>             review mode is checked.

>> 

>> 

>>             If i want to hear the message when it comes up and says

>>             cancel save etc and it is not spoken out which does not

>>             worry me I can use object navigation to hear it in this

>>             case it is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric keypad then use

>>             nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the buttons are and save

>>             that way.

>> 

>> 

>>             Some of the material that is not read out can be accessed

>>             with object navigation like this example.

>> 

>> 

>>             If a document is already saved I do not need to hear it

>>             has been saved as I know it has been.

>> 

>> 

>>             Gene nz

>> 

>> 

>>             On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:

>>>             Window-eyes says that because it is told by the

>>>             developers, to say that word when that key combination is

>>>             pressed.  it isn't analyzing an action by the word

>>>             processor or text editor to know if a document was

>>>             saved.  It is just saying the word.  That is bad design

>>>             and Window-eyes probably says other things because the

>>>             screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a

>>>             certain key combination is pressed.

>>>             Frankly, you are worrying excessively about almost

>>>             nothing.  As I said, if you issue the save command twice,

>>>             it is almost 100 percent certain that the document has

>>>             been saved. And to emphasize the point, all this time,

>>>             you were saving documents and relying on Window-eyes to

>>>             tell you that they were saved when actually, all it was

>>>             doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed

>>>             to when you pressed that combination.  But that shows how

>>>             reliably your documents were being saved.

>>>             Gene

>>>             ----- Original Message -----

>>>             *From:* Grant Metcalf <mailto:the.gems@...>

>>>             *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM

>>>             *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>>             *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>>> 

>>>             *FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s command

>>>             it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is

>>>             helpful. Another thought that occured to me is to go to

>>>             the file name in the subdirectory and check the date and

>>>             time last saved, especially if i want to continue editing

>>>             the document.*

>>>             **

>>>             *Listening for His shout!*

>>>             *Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS*

>>             --

>>             Image NVDA certified expert

>>             Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other

>>             blindness related materials at

>>             http://www.accessibilitycentral.net

>> 

>>             To find out which library networks in New Zealand have a

>>             copy of the NVDA screen reader on them and there library

>>             locations please go to

>>             http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nz%20libraries%20with%20nvda.html

>>             To find a NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the

>>             following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The

>>             certification page contains the official list of NVDA

>>             certified individuals from around the world, who have sat

>>             and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>         --

>>         Quentin Christensen

>>         Training and Support Manager

>> 

>>         Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

>>         Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

>>         Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

>>         User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

>>         Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess

>>         Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>     --

>>     Quentin Christensen

>>     Training and Support Manager

>> 

>>     Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

>>     Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

>>     Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

>>     User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

>>     Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess

>>     Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> --

>> Quentin Christensen

>> Training and Support Manager

>> 

>> Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

>> Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

>> Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

>> User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess

>> Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

>

 

 

 

Re: NVDA adding and changing settings

David Griffith
 

I agree  it has limited functionality – it also seems to display only one line of a clipboard clip.

However I guess it might be useful in an emergency as you can turn on NVDA’s Speech Viewer to accessibly access  the content displayed. Admittedly I have not  tried this  but 

David Griffith

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io
Sent: 10 November 2019 21:02
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,   I tried the windows v command,   and I did see 2 things but you

can not do anything with it I.E. You can't hit enter on it or do and

application key on it and get choices so really what is the point of it?

 

On 08/11/2019 06:13, Jaffar Sidek wrote:

> Agreed Quentin.  And for all of the issues experienced on the new

> windows update, the windows+V key combo which allows for exploring the

> history of what has been pasted to the clipboard is indeed revolutionary

> in my opinion.  The ability to retrieve one's forgotten word or code or

> password or text at any time cannot be underestimated.  Cheers!

>

> On 11/8/2019 2:04 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:

>> Re copy and paste etc, remember it's not just about being able to tell

>> with relative confidence that something has occurred, but also how

>> much effort it takes to find that out. I know the add-on seems to work

>> pretty well when I've used it, but maybe my machine is faster than

>> average and my tolerance for waiting for something to happen is greater.

>> 

>> For now, the functionality is available in an add-on.  Yes it could be

>> argued to bring it over to core, but then again, that would also take

>> someone's time instead of adding some other feature or fixing some

>> other bug - again, not a reason not to do it, but a reason to weigh up

>> against whether it is needed in core when it already exists as an add-on.

>> 

>> Actually, also just for the sake of adding it here, and since I was

>> just playing with it for another thread - Windows 10 has a clipboard

>> history - you can press WINDOWS+V and arrow through a list of recent

>> things copied to the clipboard. Arguably (for those on recent Windows

>> 10 builds) that could be a way of "checking" what has been copied if

>> you aren't sure.

>> 

>> 

>> On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 3:15 PM Gene <gsasner@...

>> <mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

>> 

>>     I didn't say you said that.  You said and this is a quote, for

>>     those with punctuation off, "Similar to announcing cut, copied or

>>     pasted, reporting when a document is saved is not something we

>>     would be inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a

>>     document had been saved."

>>     I see no evidence that copy, cut, and paste, can't be definitely

>>     determined.  I don't know what JAWS does or System Access, nor do

>>     I know how the add-on monitors to determine when text is copied

>>     and pasted.  But the reason the developers didn't want to put a

>>     copy and paste announcement in NVDA is because they said you can't

>>     tell when those actions are done, which is incorrect.  I'm saying

>>     that some how, when this was being considered, the developers

>>     believed it couldn't be done and that is stated in the Github

>>     (spelling) discussion.

>>     A copy and paste announcement is a different case from an e-mail

>>     sent announcement.  In the e-mail case, you get an indication from

>>     the program whether the message was sent.  When you copy, there is

>>     nothing that happens to confirm that you have done so.  Without

>>     such confirmation, very inconvenient things may occur.  Suppose

>>     you are copying or moving files.  You issue the copy command, move

>>     fifteen selected files, then issue the copy command after you have

>>     selected twenty more files.  You then paste in a different folder

>>     than the first fifteen. Imagine the annoyance when you find you

>>     have copied the first fifteen files over again.  You then have the

>>     annoyance of having to delete them, go back, copy the twenty files

>>     over again after you select them again, then paste them again.

>>     The same thing could happen with text.

>>     You can't assume that even if you are careful and know you have

>>     issued the copy command correctly, that it has worked.  I have

>>     exeecuted commands in the past that weren't carried out for some

>>     reason and I had to execute the command twice.  Before the add-on,

>>     I had inconveniences such as I described above now and then.  They

>>     could have been avoided if the add-on had been available or if a

>>     copy and paste announcement were built into NVDA.  I consider this

>>     an important function and it should be built into the screen-reader.

>>     My experience is that the add-on is accurate, but if others have

>>     experiences that it isn't as good as it ideally should be, then

>>     that could be worked on.

>>     But aside from my experience that the add-on works well, my

>>     experience with JAWS, which I used for years before NVDA existed,

>>     is that it is accurate.  I'm saying that the premise on which the

>>     function was rejected is incorrect.

>>     Gene

>>     ----- Original Message -----

>>     *From:* Quentin Christensen <mailto:quentin@...>

>>     *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 7:32 PM

>>     *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>     *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>     I didn't say you couldn't make an educational assumption about

>>     when copying and pasting has taken place, and from what I've

>>     experienced, the add-on does do an excellent job of this.  What I

>>     meant by us not being able to tell, was more that it would involve

>>     checking other things to determine whether something has been

>>     copied etc, rather than having something exposed from the program

>>     or Windows which states definitively "text has been copied" (or

>>     how much, or whatever).  The fact that the add-on does such a good

>>     job of it, could be an argument to put forward a case for adding

>>     it to NVDA core.  My understanding is that this is basically how

>>     other screen readers make the same assumptions about copying and

>>     pasting.

>> 

>>     Re knowing when an email has been sent.  In a way, it is the same

>>     thing, because you don't get a message saying it has been sent,

>>     but you know it has been sent because the draft email disappears

>>     when you give the instruction to send it, and there's no error

>>     message. Theoretically, NVDA could be made to give the user a

>>     message that the email had been sent.  You are right about

>>     teaching people to use those cues to know that it has been sent,

>>     my point was simply that in my experience, if you haven't got them

>>     familiar with the idea beforehand, probably the majority of

>>     people, if you just instruct them how to write an email and what

>>     button to press to send it, will immediately ask "did it send?"

>>     The merits of adding a confirmation to reassure new users, vs only

>>     notifying when there is an error could be debated either way, but

>>     that's the way it works, and largely, that is the same for copying

>>     text.

>> 

>>     We could do away with a lot of confirmation messages if we expect

>>     people to understand what commands they are giving the computer

>>     and the ways they behave.  Or, we could add in a lot more

>>     confirmation messages if we want to make computers more novice

>>     friendly.  Is the current system perfect?  Probably not.  Office,

>>     for instance, has changed to automatically saving documents.  Once

>>     you've saved a document once, in Word 2003, if you write some more

>>     text, and then press ALT+F4, Word will ask if you want to save the

>>     changes.  Word 365 will have already saved your changes and will

>>     simply close.  Which way is correct?  You could argue either way -

>>     and in fact, in the Office 365 model currenly, you NEVER get a

>>     confirmation your document has been saved.  But you can infer it

>>     by reading the title bar (for the purpose of the conversation,

>>     disregard the bug that currently prevents getting that

>>     information) and by the fact that you don't get prompted to save

>>     when you try to close Word.

>> 

>> 

>>     On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 10:48 AM Gene <gsasner@...

>>     <mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

>> 

>>         If an e-mail has been sent, the window closes and you are

>>         automatically placed where you were before you wrote, replied,

>>         to, or forwarded a message.  If a message isn't able to be

>>         sent, the program opens an error window which gains focus and

>>         you can't miss it. Therefore, a sent announcement is

>>         unnecessary and presents no information that isn't obvious if

>>         you instruct the person in what to look for.  Also, learning

>>         how to derive information from context and behavior is

>>         important.  You won't always have someone explaining

>>         everything in every program and every new program.

>>         But since you clearly indicate that sighted people get

>>         information when saving an already saved document again, this

>>         is a case where the screen-reader isn't presenting information

>>         that would be useful and that can't conveniently be inferred,

>>         as in the case of e-mail.

>>         And the idea that the developers got somehow that it can't be

>>         determined when copying and pasting take place is just plain

>>         wrong.  it isn't even debateable, it’s a matter of fact.  JAWS

>>         knows when, and System Access knows when.  I have specifically

>>         seen instances when copying didn't take place and no erroneous

>>         report was made.  I don't know how this myth that the

>>         developers persist in believing got started but it has never

>>         been true.

>>         Also, the NVDA add-on tells me accurately when copying and

>>         pasting takes place.  The person who wrote the add-on believes

>>         that it doesn't for some reason but I've been using it almost

>>         daily since it came out and I've almost never seen it make a

>>         mistake.

>>         I'm making a point of this because, since this can be

>>         accurately determined, it should be incorporated into NVDA and

>>         not left to an add-on, which a lot of people will never know

>>         exist.

>>         Gene

>>         ----- Original Message -----

>>         *From:* Quentin Christensen <mailto:quentin@...>

>>         *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 4:39 PM

>>         *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>         *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>         Just chiming in to give the visual perspective:

>>         In Notepad, when pressing control+s:

>>         - If the document has not been saved before, the "Save as"

>>         dialog appears and NVDA reports that.

>>         - If the document has been saved previously, Notepad saves it,

>>         and NVDA does not say anything (unless you have speak command

>>         keys on, in which case NVDA reports "control+s").  Notepad

>>         does put an asterisk at the start of the filename in the title

>>         bar when a document has been edited.  This disappears when the

>>         document is saved.  NVDA does read this asterisk when reading

>>         the title bar.

>> 

>>         In Word 365, when pressing control+s:

>>         - If the document has not been saved before, a "Save this

>>         file" window appears and NVDA reports that.

>>         - If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is

>>         enabled, nothing happens and NVDA does not report anything

>>         (again unless speak command keys is on to report

>>         "control+s").  With AutoSave on, the document is saved every

>>         time any key is pressed so control+s is not needed.

>>         - If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is

>>         not enabled, the visual response is again subtle.  When you

>>         open a document, or save it, the title bar notes "Filename -

>>         Saved".  Once you change it, the "Saved" disappears.  This

>>         gets reinstated when you save it.  There is currently a known

>>         issue, I believe with the way Office is exposing the title

>>         bar.  See: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10150

>> 

>>         Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting when a

>>         document is saved is not something we would be inclined to add

>>         to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a document had been saved.  I

>>         can see the usefulness of the functionality for some users (it

>>         reminds me of how when teaching email, people often want

>>         confirmation that the email has been sent, but many email

>>         clients don't give that).  For this reason, I would recommend

>>         it might be useful functionality for an add-on.  Possibly

>>         Damien Garwood, developer of the ClipSpeak add-on, might be

>>         interested in adding it.

>> 

>>         Kind regards

>> 

>>         Quentin.

>> 

>>         On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 6:14 AM Gene <gsasner@...

>>         <mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

>> 

>>             I checked, and the settings you are discussing are checked

>>             by default.  So people should hear this message in general.

>>             Gene

>>             ----- Original Message -----

>>             *From:* Gene via Groups.Io

>>             <mailto:gsasner@...>

>>             *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:08 PM

>>             *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>             *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>             It should be spoken and if it isn't without changing NVDA

>>             settings, the problem should be corrected.

>>             Perhaps this is a problem using NVDA in Windows 10. The

>>             message is spoken in Windows 7.

>>             Gene

>>             ----- Original Message -----

>> 

>>             *From:* hurrikennyandopo ...

>>             <mailto:hurrikennyandopo@...>

>>             *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:02 PM

>>             *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>             *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>             Hi

>> 

>> 

>>             If it is the message he wants to hear even though it is

>>             not spoken when in note pad and do the alt key + f4 key

>>             and get the message do you want to save which is not spoken.

>> 

>> 

>>             he can do the following in nvdas settings under simple

>>             review cursor make sure it is checked and make sure simple

>>             review mode is checked.

>> 

>> 

>>             If i want to hear the message when it comes up and says

>>             cancel save etc and it is not spoken out which does not

>>             worry me I can use object navigation to hear it in this

>>             case it is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric keypad then use

>>             nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the buttons are and save

>>             that way.

>> 

>> 

>>             Some of the material that is not read out can be accessed

>>             with object navigation like this example.

>> 

>> 

>>             If a document is already saved I do not need to hear it

>>             has been saved as I know it has been.

>> 

>> 

>>             Gene nz

>> 

>> 

>>             On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:

>>>             Window-eyes says that because it is told by the

>>>             developers, to say that word when that key combination is

>>>             pressed.  it isn't analyzing an action by the word

>>>             processor or text editor to know if a document was

>>>             saved.  It is just saying the word.  That is bad design

>>>             and Window-eyes probably says other things because the

>>>             screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a

>>>             certain key combination is pressed.

>>>             Frankly, you are worrying excessively about almost

>>>             nothing.  As I said, if you issue the save command twice,

>>>             it is almost 100 percent certain that the document has

>>>             been saved. And to emphasize the point, all this time,

>>>             you were saving documents and relying on Window-eyes to

>>>             tell you that they were saved when actually, all it was

>>>             doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed

>>>             to when you pressed that combination.  But that shows how

>>>             reliably your documents were being saved.

>>>             Gene

>>>             ----- Original Message -----

>>>             *From:* Grant Metcalf <mailto:the.gems@...>

>>>             *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM

>>>             *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>>             *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>>> 

>>>             *FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s command

>>>             it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is

>>>             helpful. Another thought that occured to me is to go to

>>>             the file name in the subdirectory and check the date and

>>>             time last saved, especially if i want to continue editing

>>>             the document.*

>>>             **

>>>             *Listening for His shout!*

>>>             *Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS*

>>             --

>>             Image NVDA certified expert

>>             Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other

>>             blindness related materials at

>>             http://www.accessibilitycentral.net

>> 

>>             To find out which library networks in New Zealand have a

>>             copy of the NVDA screen reader on them and there library

>>             locations please go to

>>             http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nz%20libraries%20with%20nvda.html

>>             To find a NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the

>>             following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The

>>             certification page contains the official list of NVDA

>>             certified individuals from around the world, who have sat

>>             and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>         --

>>         Quentin Christensen

>>         Training and Support Manager

>> 

>>         Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

>>         Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

>>         Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

>>         User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

>>         Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess

>>         Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>     --

>>     Quentin Christensen

>>     Training and Support Manager

>> 

>>     Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

>>     Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

>>     Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

>>     User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

>>     Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess

>>     Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> --

>> Quentin Christensen

>> Training and Support Manager

>> 

>> Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

>> Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

>> Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

>> User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess

>> Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

>

 

 

 

Re: NVDACon 2019

molly the blind tech lover
 

This is so exciting

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 9:45 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io; nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io; nvda-translations@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] NVDACon 2019

 

Dear NVDA community,

 

after more than 8 months in which we spent exciting time together to organize the NVDACon 2019, we are almost there!

 

The conference will start on november 15th 2019 at 21:00 UTC with the opening forum as everyone should already know.

 

This year’s conference is held for the first time in november. Join us on a very inlightning jurney during which we will find out that NVDA is everywhere!

This year we will be proud to have Google as well as Firefox on our conference. For more details, check the preliminary schedule at

https://www.nvdacon.org/2019-program-and-schedule

 

In any case, there are plenty of reasons why this NVDACon will be unique!

 

We will be glad to see you at NVDACon 2019.

 

Best regards

Adriani

Co chair of NVDACon board team

Re: NVDA adding and changing settings

Kevin Cussick
 

Hi, I tried the windows v command, and I did see 2 things but you can not do anything with it I.E. You can't hit enter on it or do and application key on it and get choices so really what is the point of it?

On 08/11/2019 06:13, Jaffar Sidek wrote:
Agreed Quentin.  And for all of the issues experienced on the new windows update, the windows+V key combo which allows for exploring the history of what has been pasted to the clipboard is indeed revolutionary in my opinion.  The ability to retrieve one's forgotten word or code or password or text at any time cannot be underestimated.  Cheers!
On 11/8/2019 2:04 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Re copy and paste etc, remember it's not just about being able to tell with relative confidence that something has occurred, but also how much effort it takes to find that out. I know the add-on seems to work pretty well when I've used it, but maybe my machine is faster than average and my tolerance for waiting for something to happen is greater.

For now, the functionality is available in an add-on.  Yes it could be argued to bring it over to core, but then again, that would also take someone's time instead of adding some other feature or fixing some other bug - again, not a reason not to do it, but a reason to weigh up against whether it is needed in core when it already exists as an add-on.

Actually, also just for the sake of adding it here, and since I was just playing with it for another thread - Windows 10 has a clipboard history - you can press WINDOWS+V and arrow through a list of recent things copied to the clipboard. Arguably (for those on recent Windows 10 builds) that could be a way of "checking" what has been copied if you aren't sure.


On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 3:15 PM Gene <gsasner@... <mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

I didn't say you said that.  You said and this is a quote, for
those with punctuation off, "Similar to announcing cut, copied or
pasted, reporting when a document is saved is not something we
would be inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a
document had been saved."
I see no evidence that copy, cut, and paste, can't be definitely
determined.  I don't know what JAWS does or System Access, nor do
I know how the add-on monitors to determine when text is copied
and pasted.  But the reason the developers didn't want to put a
copy and paste announcement in NVDA is because they said you can't
tell when those actions are done, which is incorrect.  I'm saying
that some how, when this was being considered, the developers
believed it couldn't be done and that is stated in the Github
(spelling) discussion.
A copy and paste announcement is a different case from an e-mail
sent announcement.  In the e-mail case, you get an indication from
the program whether the message was sent.  When you copy, there is
nothing that happens to confirm that you have done so.  Without
such confirmation, very inconvenient things may occur.  Suppose
you are copying or moving files.  You issue the copy command, move
fifteen selected files, then issue the copy command after you have
selected twenty more files.  You then paste in a different folder
than the first fifteen. Imagine the annoyance when you find you
have copied the first fifteen files over again.  You then have the
annoyance of having to delete them, go back, copy the twenty files
over again after you select them again, then paste them again. The same thing could happen with text.
You can't assume that even if you are careful and know you have
issued the copy command correctly, that it has worked.  I have
exeecuted commands in the past that weren't carried out for some
reason and I had to execute the command twice.  Before the add-on,
I had inconveniences such as I described above now and then.  They
could have been avoided if the add-on had been available or if a
copy and paste announcement were built into NVDA.  I consider this
an important function and it should be built into the screen-reader.
My experience is that the add-on is accurate, but if others have
experiences that it isn't as good as it ideally should be, then
that could be worked on.
But aside from my experience that the add-on works well, my
experience with JAWS, which I used for years before NVDA existed,
is that it is accurate.  I'm saying that the premise on which the
function was rejected is incorrect.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Quentin Christensen <mailto:quentin@...>
*Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 7:32 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

I didn't say you couldn't make an educational assumption about
when copying and pasting has taken place, and from what I've
experienced, the add-on does do an excellent job of this.  What I
meant by us not being able to tell, was more that it would involve
checking other things to determine whether something has been
copied etc, rather than having something exposed from the program
or Windows which states definitively "text has been copied" (or
how much, or whatever).  The fact that the add-on does such a good
job of it, could be an argument to put forward a case for adding
it to NVDA core.  My understanding is that this is basically how
other screen readers make the same assumptions about copying and
pasting.

Re knowing when an email has been sent.  In a way, it is the same
thing, because you don't get a message saying it has been sent,
but you know it has been sent because the draft email disappears
when you give the instruction to send it, and there's no error
message. Theoretically, NVDA could be made to give the user a
message that the email had been sent.  You are right about
teaching people to use those cues to know that it has been sent,
my point was simply that in my experience, if you haven't got them
familiar with the idea beforehand, probably the majority of
people, if you just instruct them how to write an email and what
button to press to send it, will immediately ask "did it send?" The merits of adding a confirmation to reassure new users, vs only
notifying when there is an error could be debated either way, but
that's the way it works, and largely, that is the same for copying
text.

We could do away with a lot of confirmation messages if we expect
people to understand what commands they are giving the computer
and the ways they behave.  Or, we could add in a lot more
confirmation messages if we want to make computers more novice
friendly.  Is the current system perfect?  Probably not.  Office,
for instance, has changed to automatically saving documents.  Once
you've saved a document once, in Word 2003, if you write some more
text, and then press ALT+F4, Word will ask if you want to save the
changes.  Word 365 will have already saved your changes and will
simply close.  Which way is correct?  You could argue either way -
and in fact, in the Office 365 model currenly, you NEVER get a
confirmation your document has been saved.  But you can infer it
by reading the title bar (for the purpose of the conversation,
disregard the bug that currently prevents getting that
information) and by the fact that you don't get prompted to save
when you try to close Word.


On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 10:48 AM Gene <gsasner@...
<mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

If an e-mail has been sent, the window closes and you are
automatically placed where you were before you wrote, replied,
to, or forwarded a message.  If a message isn't able to be
sent, the program opens an error window which gains focus and
you can't miss it. Therefore, a sent announcement is
unnecessary and presents no information that isn't obvious if
you instruct the person in what to look for.  Also, learning
how to derive information from context and behavior is
important.  You won't always have someone explaining
everything in every program and every new program.
But since you clearly indicate that sighted people get
information when saving an already saved document again, this
is a case where the screen-reader isn't presenting information
that would be useful and that can't conveniently be inferred,
as in the case of e-mail.
And the idea that the developers got somehow that it can't be
determined when copying and pasting take place is just plain
wrong.  it isn't even debateable, it’s a matter of fact.  JAWS
knows when, and System Access knows when.  I have specifically
seen instances when copying didn't take place and no erroneous
report was made.  I don't know how this myth that the
developers persist in believing got started but it has never
been true.
Also, the NVDA add-on tells me accurately when copying and
pasting takes place.  The person who wrote the add-on believes
that it doesn't for some reason but I've been using it almost
daily since it came out and I've almost never seen it make a
mistake.
I'm making a point of this because, since this can be
accurately determined, it should be incorporated into NVDA and
not left to an add-on, which a lot of people will never know
exist.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Quentin Christensen <mailto:quentin@...>
*Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 4:39 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

Just chiming in to give the visual perspective:
In Notepad, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, the "Save as"
dialog appears and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously, Notepad saves it,
and NVDA does not say anything (unless you have speak command
keys on, in which case NVDA reports "control+s").  Notepad
does put an asterisk at the start of the filename in the title
bar when a document has been edited.  This disappears when the
document is saved.  NVDA does read this asterisk when reading
the title bar.

In Word 365, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, a "Save this
file" window appears and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is
enabled, nothing happens and NVDA does not report anything
(again unless speak command keys is on to report
"control+s").  With AutoSave on, the document is saved every
time any key is pressed so control+s is not needed.
- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is
not enabled, the visual response is again subtle.  When you
open a document, or save it, the title bar notes "Filename -
Saved".  Once you change it, the "Saved" disappears.  This
gets reinstated when you save it.  There is currently a known
issue, I believe with the way Office is exposing the title
bar.  See: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10150

Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting when a
document is saved is not something we would be inclined to add
to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a document had been saved.  I
can see the usefulness of the functionality for some users (it
reminds me of how when teaching email, people often want
confirmation that the email has been sent, but many email
clients don't give that).  For this reason, I would recommend
it might be useful functionality for an add-on.  Possibly
Damien Garwood, developer of the ClipSpeak add-on, might be
interested in adding it.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 6:14 AM Gene <gsasner@...
<mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

I checked, and the settings you are discussing are checked
by default.  So people should hear this message in general.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Gene via Groups.Io
<mailto:gsasner=gmail.com@groups.io>
*Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:08 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

It should be spoken and if it isn't without changing NVDA
settings, the problem should be corrected.
Perhaps this is a problem using NVDA in Windows 10. The
message is spoken in Windows 7.
Gene
----- Original Message -----

*From:* hurrikennyandopo ...
<mailto:hurrikennyandopo@...>
*Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:02 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

Hi


If it is the message he wants to hear even though it is
not spoken when in note pad and do the alt key + f4 key
and get the message do you want to save which is not spoken.


he can do the following in nvdas settings under simple
review cursor make sure it is checked and make sure simple
review mode is checked.


If i want to hear the message when it comes up and says
cancel save etc and it is not spoken out which does not
worry me I can use object navigation to hear it in this
case it is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric keypad then use
nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the buttons are and save
that way.


Some of the material that is not read out can be accessed
with object navigation like this example.


If a document is already saved I do not need to hear it
has been saved as I know it has been.


Gene nz


On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:
Window-eyes says that because it is told by the
developers, to say that word when that key combination is
pressed.  it isn't analyzing an action by the word
processor or text editor to know if a document was
saved.  It is just saying the word.  That is bad design
and Window-eyes probably says other things because the
screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a
certain key combination is pressed.
Frankly, you are worrying excessively about almost
nothing.  As I said, if you issue the save command twice,
it is almost 100 percent certain that the document has
been saved. And to emphasize the point, all this time,
you were saving documents and relying on Window-eyes to
tell you that they were saved when actually, all it was
doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed
to when you pressed that combination.  But that shows how
reliably your documents were being saved.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Grant Metcalf <mailto:the.gems@...>
*Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

*FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s command
it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is
helpful. Another thought that occured to me is to go to
the file name in the subdirectory and check the date and
time last saved, especially if i want to continue editing
the document.*
**
*Listening for His shout!*
*Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS*
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--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>
Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
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GoldWave add-on 19.11 #addonrelease

 

Hi all,

 

GoldWave add-on 19.11 is now available. In addition to internal changes, this version adds a custom help message for sound window (only seen if Control Usage Assistant add-on is installed) and drops support for NVDA releases earlier than 2019.1. As always, the new update can be found on community add-ons website or via Add-on Updater.

 

IMPORTANT: from add-on 19.11 onwards, the following combination is required:

 

  • NVDA 2019.1 or later
  • Windows 7 Service Pack 1 or later
  • GoldWave 6 or later

 

A release scheduled for early 2020 will require NVDA 2019.3 or later to align with other add-ons. For people needing to use old GoldWave releases and/or using old NVDA versions, add-on 19.04.1 can be found at:

https://github.com/josephsl/goldWave/releases/download/19.04/goldwave-19.04.1.nvda-addon

 

Cheers,

Joseph