Date   
Re: Are web applications that accessible?

 

On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 12:26 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
You can do that or go into the elements list and quickly type the element name
The problem with this theory is it relies upon the web page developer to have bothered to have structured the page well, and often they don't.

I have nothing against the elements list, and teach people how to use it, but one needs to approach it with caution and use it in combination with other tools.  You can't count on something "not being there" because it's not in any one of the elements lists (whether in NVDA, JAWS, or any other screen reader).   You can be assured that if you do both a screen reader find and, if necessary, a straight application program find as well and can't find something that it's really not there.  I often use straight find commands when a visual scan doesn't immediately turn up what I think should be there, but I can't spot.  It's the same concept - knowing how to double and sometimes triple check yourself.

I don't think that anyone, including myself, is saying one should never use tool X or tool Y.   Being aware of the limitations of tool X and tool Y, which may mean you need to resort to tool Z upon occasion, is, however, vital.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 

Re: Are web applications that accessible?

molly the blind tech lover
 

I’ll have to try that

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Monday, October 7, 2019 12:20 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

 

You can do that or go into the elements list and quickly type the element name. I type titl and get to title very quickly then just press enter once. Ten I type s and get to social and hit enter once. Then just use 3 to go and find the fields I want to edit. Both methods work equally well. Ther is also a filter edit box i the elements view where you can filter by for example titl or s, and it will just show those.

Take care

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on youtube, twitch and mixer. Thanks Restream staff.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 7 Oct 2019, at 8:55, molly the blind tech lover wrote:

I use the find function to find the MyCommnet,  where you log in  on my school’s website. Otherwise you’d have to activate the elements list and press the letter m until you hear MyCommnet.

The find dialog really saves me time. I just love NVDA

 😂

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Monday, October 7, 2019 11:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

 

I actually rarely use the find function on for example http://restream.io I jut use elements list to get to title, then social to update my stuff and e to get to the firs the edit field. Man I hope one day I can edit this stuff using the app as it is just more convenient.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on youtube, twitch and mixer. Thanks Restream staff.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 7 Oct 2019, at 8:22, Devin Prater wrote:

Yes, I do like the Find function. I teach my students to use that, over the commonly taught “elements list” dinosaur. Seriously, when a website is mainly reading, the elements list skips so much, and it only makes a blind person’s life harder because if that element isn’t there anymore, or it changes from a link to a button, well there ya go. But if it’s a web app we’re working with, I try to use it as “natively” as possible, turning on focus mode, using Tab, shift+Tab, and keyboard shortcuts as much as possible.




On Oct 7, 2019, at 10:08 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

 

On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 10:51 AM, Gene wrote:

But there are ways of skipping unwanted material and the fact that they are not well known indicates poor training or poor training materials being widely used.

 

The find command is one of the most useful but under or unused feature.

Indeed.   What's worse is how often I see people making the assertion, "You can't do {insert thing X}," which I know for fact you can do, and have been able to do for years.   Or stating that something is inaccessible not because it's actually inaccessible, but because they do not know how to access it.   That's one of the very reasons that questions of the form, "Is {insert program or app here} accessible with NVDA?," are allowed and encouraged on this group.  Though one can install and play with things, and actually should, when a given program either costs money and/or is quite complex it makes perfect sense to try to determine whether it's accessible or not before investing a lot of time in playing with it.   One good thing about groups, though, is that you can easily figure out when an incorrect assertion has been made based upon the typical flow of, "That's just not the case," often accompanied by instructions on how to access something that follows it.

And the screen reader find is one of the most handy and grossly underused features for "quick and dirty" movement around a given cyber landscape that I know of.  One of the tutorials I wrote ages ago,Mass Selection and Deletion of Gmail Messages via the Gmail Web Interface, was in response to several assertions of the "you can't do that, at all" nature that were offered.  And if you don't use the screen reader find function (see step 3) it is impossible to do, but with it, well . . .
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 

 

Re: Are web applications that accessible?

Sarah k Alawami
 

You can do that or go into the elements list and quickly type the element name. I type titl and get to title very quickly then just press enter once. Ten I type s and get to social and hit enter once. Then just use 3 to go and find the fields I want to edit. Both methods work equally well. Ther is also a filter edit box i the elements view where you can filter by for example titl or s, and it will just show those.

Take care

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on youtube, twitch and mixer. Thanks Restream staff.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 7 Oct 2019, at 8:55, molly the blind tech lover wrote:

I use the find function to find the MyCommnet,  where you log in  on my school’s website. Otherwise you’d have to activate the elements list and press the letter m until you hear MyCommnet.

The find dialog really saves me time. I just love NVDA

 😂

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Monday, October 7, 2019 11:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

 

I actually rarely use the find function on for example http://restream.io I jut use elements list to get to title, then social to update my stuff and e to get to the firs the edit field. Man I hope one day I can edit this stuff using the app as it is just more convenient.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on youtube, twitch and mixer. Thanks Restream staff.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 7 Oct 2019, at 8:22, Devin Prater wrote:

Yes, I do like the Find function. I teach my students to use that, over the commonly taught “elements list” dinosaur. Seriously, when a website is mainly reading, the elements list skips so much, and it only makes a blind person’s life harder because if that element isn’t there anymore, or it changes from a link to a button, well there ya go. But if it’s a web app we’re working with, I try to use it as “natively” as possible, turning on focus mode, using Tab, shift+Tab, and keyboard shortcuts as much as possible.



On Oct 7, 2019, at 10:08 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

 

On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 10:51 AM, Gene wrote:

But there are ways of skipping unwanted material and the fact that they are not well known indicates poor training or poor training materials being widely used.

 

The find command is one of the most useful but under or unused feature.

Indeed.   What's worse is how often I see people making the assertion, "You can't do {insert thing X}," which I know for fact you can do, and have been able to do for years.   Or stating that something is inaccessible not because it's actually inaccessible, but because they do not know how to access it.   That's one of the very reasons that questions of the form, "Is {insert program or app here} accessible with NVDA?," are allowed and encouraged on this group.  Though one can install and play with things, and actually should, when a given program either costs money and/or is quite complex it makes perfect sense to try to determine whether it's accessible or not before investing a lot of time in playing with it.   One good thing about groups, though, is that you can easily figure out when an incorrect assertion has been made based upon the typical flow of, "That's just not the case," often accompanied by instructions on how to access something that follows it.

And the screen reader find is one of the most handy and grossly underused features for "quick and dirty" movement around a given cyber landscape that I know of.  One of the tutorials I wrote ages ago,Mass Selection and Deletion of Gmail Messages via the Gmail Web Interface, was in response to several assertions of the "you can't do that, at all" nature that were offered.  And if you don't use the screen reader find function (see step 3) it is impossible to do, but with it, well . . .
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 

 

Re: Are web applications that accessible?

molly the blind tech lover
 

When I received training it was with Jaws, and one of the first things I was taught  was how to use the elements list. I taught myself how to use NVDA when I got home, because there was no one else. I like to think I am pretty competent with NVDA, though I am certainly no expert.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Monday, October 7, 2019 12:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

 

I don't think blind people should be taught the elements list until they have thoroughly mastered the find command and other ways to navigate.  Yet a lot of instructional material teaches the elements list very early.  It is not anything like any structure on the web page and it separates the user from the web page and makes teaching looking at context more difficult. 

 

Once the student has mastered other ways of working with web pages, there is plenty of time to teach this completely artificial structure.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

 

Sent: Monday, October 07, 2019 10:58 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

 

I enjoy using the find function as well. Particularly on lengthy pages
with lots of links and/or information. Navigating with the elements list
would just take too long. This is useful on my RSS reader web page for
instance. I subscribe to a whole bunch of feeds, over 300.

Re: Are web applications that accessible?

Sarah k Alawami
 

Yep. If I'm on my flight briefing and I want to search for situation, I hit control nfda f, and type "sit" and keep hitting nvda f3 until I find "aircraft situation" or i can go to the elements dialogue and start typing "sit" and just hit enter, what ever fir me is faster at the time.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on youtube, twitch and mixer. Thanks Restream staff.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 7 Oct 2019, at 9:02, Gene wrote:

How much do you type of Mycommnet?  Another thing I doubt most people know, is that, when using the find command, typing the first four or five letters of what you are looking for is usually adequate.  If I want to find the editorial link on a newspaper site, I search for editorr and if I want to find a contact link, I search for cont.  Sometimes, such as on the Newsline site, I search for rk ti for New York Times.  Note that this isn't starting at the beginning of the first word, it is typing a small amount of what I'm searching for in the middle of the string that won't be used elsewhere on the publications list page. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, October 07, 2019 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

I use the find function to find the MyCommnet,  where you log in  on my school’s website. Otherwise you’d have to activate the elements list and press the letter m until you hear MyCommnet.

The find dialog really saves me time. I just love NVDA

 😂

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Monday, October 7, 2019 11:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

 

I actually rarely use the find function on for example http://restream.io I jut use elements list to get to title, then social to update my stuff and e to get to the firs the edit field. Man I hope one day I can edit this stuff using the app as it is just more convenient.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on youtube, twitch and mixer. Thanks Restream staff.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 7 Oct 2019, at 8:22, Devin Prater wrote:

Yes, I do like the Find function. I teach my students to use that, over the commonly taught “elements list” dinosaur. Seriously, when a website is mainly reading, the elements list skips so much, and it only makes a blind person’s life harder because if that element isn’t there anymore, or it changes from a link to a button, well there ya go. But if it’s a web app we’re working with, I try to use it as “natively” as possible, turning on focus mode, using Tab, shift+Tab, and keyboard shortcuts as much as possible.



On Oct 7, 2019, at 10:08 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

 

On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 10:51 AM, Gene wrote:

But there are ways of skipping unwanted material and the fact that they are not well known indicates poor training or poor training materials being widely used.

 

The find command is one of the most useful but under or unused feature.

Indeed.   What's worse is how often I see people making the assertion, "You can't do {insert thing X}," which I know for fact you can do, and have been able to do for years.   Or stating that something is inaccessible not because it's actually inaccessible, but because they do not know how to access it.   That's one of the very reasons that questions of the form, "Is {insert program or app here} accessible with NVDA?," are allowed and encouraged on this group.  Though one can install and play with things, and actually should, when a given program either costs money and/or is quite complex it makes perfect sense to try to determine whether it's accessible or not before investing a lot of time in playing with it.   One good thing about groups, though, is that you can easily figure out when an incorrect assertion has been made based upon the typical flow of, "That's just not the case," often accompanied by instructions on how to access something that follows it.

And the screen reader find is one of the most handy and grossly underused features for "quick and dirty" movement around a given cyber landscape that I know of.  One of the tutorials I wrote ages ago,Mass Selection and Deletion of Gmail Messages via the Gmail Web Interface, was in response to several assertions of the "you can't do that, at all" nature that were offered.  And if you don't use the screen reader find function (see step 3) it is impossible to do, but with it, well . . .
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 

 

Re: Are web applications that accessible?

molly the blind tech lover
 

I just type the whole thing…

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Monday, October 7, 2019 12:02 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

 

How much do you type of Mycommnet?  Another thing I doubt most people know, is that, when using the find command, typing the first four or five letters of what you are looking for is usually adequate.  If I want to find the editorial link on a newspaper site, I search for editorr and if I want to find a contact link, I search for cont.  Sometimes, such as on the Newsline site, I search for rk ti for New York Times.  Note that this isn't starting at the beginning of the first word, it is typing a small amount of what I'm searching for in the middle of the string that won't be used elsewhere on the publications list page. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, October 07, 2019 10:55 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

 

I use the find function to find the MyCommnet,  where you log in  on my school’s website. Otherwise you’d have to activate the elements list and press the letter m until you hear MyCommnet.

The find dialog really saves me time. I just love NVDA

 😂

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Monday, October 7, 2019 11:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

 

I actually rarely use the find function on for example http://restream.io I jut use elements list to get to title, then social to update my stuff and e to get to the firs the edit field. Man I hope one day I can edit this stuff using the app as it is just more convenient.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on youtube, twitch and mixer. Thanks Restream staff.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 7 Oct 2019, at 8:22, Devin Prater wrote:

Yes, I do like the Find function. I teach my students to use that, over the commonly taught “elements list” dinosaur. Seriously, when a website is mainly reading, the elements list skips so much, and it only makes a blind person’s life harder because if that element isn’t there anymore, or it changes from a link to a button, well there ya go. But if it’s a web app we’re working with, I try to use it as “natively” as possible, turning on focus mode, using Tab, shift+Tab, and keyboard shortcuts as much as possible.

 

On Oct 7, 2019, at 10:08 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

 

On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 10:51 AM, Gene wrote:

But there are ways of skipping unwanted material and the fact that they are not well known indicates poor training or poor training materials being widely used.

 

The find command is one of the most useful but under or unused feature.

Indeed.   What's worse is how often I see people making the assertion, "You can't do {insert thing X}," which I know for fact you can do, and have been able to do for years.   Or stating that something is inaccessible not because it's actually inaccessible, but because they do not know how to access it.   That's one of the very reasons that questions of the form, "Is {insert program or app here} accessible with NVDA?," are allowed and encouraged on this group.  Though one can install and play with things, and actually should, when a given program either costs money and/or is quite complex it makes perfect sense to try to determine whether it's accessible or not before investing a lot of time in playing with it.   One good thing about groups, though, is that you can easily figure out when an incorrect assertion has been made based upon the typical flow of, "That's just not the case," often accompanied by instructions on how to access something that follows it.

And the screen reader find is one of the most handy and grossly underused features for "quick and dirty" movement around a given cyber landscape that I know of.  One of the tutorials I wrote ages ago,Mass Selection and Deletion of Gmail Messages via the Gmail Web Interface, was in response to several assertions of the "you can't do that, at all" nature that were offered.  And if you don't use the screen reader find function (see step 3) it is impossible to do, but with it, well . . .
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 

 

Re: Are web applications that accessible?

 

On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 12:02 PM, Gene wrote:
Another thing I doubt most people know, is that, when using the find command, typing the first four or five letters of what you are looking for is usually adequate.
And this isn't just true on screen reader finds, either.   As a general first pass one should provide only enough to be distinctive enough to narrow results to what one thinks one wants.   You can't use, say, "the," as a search term and expect to get anything that anyone would want to trudge through.  But, by contrast, using "geot" when you know a document has (or may have) the word "geothermal" in it is generally more than enough.  There just aren't many words in the English language that start with those 4 letters, and specifically if one is dealing with a single document or webpage.

Web searches are a thing of their own, and different.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 

Re: Are web applications that accessible?

Gene
 

I don't think blind people should be taught the elements list until they have thoroughly mastered the find command and other ways to navigate.  Yet a lot of instructional material teaches the elements list very early.  It is not anything like any structure on the web page and it separates the user from the web page and makes teaching looking at context more difficult. 
 
Once the student has mastered other ways of working with web pages, there is plenty of time to teach this completely artificial structure.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, October 07, 2019 10:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

I enjoy using the find function as well. Particularly on lengthy pages
with lots of links and/or information. Navigating with the elements list
would just take too long. This is useful on my RSS reader web page for
instance. I subscribe to a whole bunch of feeds, over 300.


Re: Are web applications that accessible?

Gene
 

How much do you type of Mycommnet?  Another thing I doubt most people know, is that, when using the find command, typing the first four or five letters of what you are looking for is usually adequate.  If I want to find the editorial link on a newspaper site, I search for editorr and if I want to find a contact link, I search for cont.  Sometimes, such as on the Newsline site, I search for rk ti for New York Times.  Note that this isn't starting at the beginning of the first word, it is typing a small amount of what I'm searching for in the middle of the string that won't be used elsewhere on the publications list page. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, October 07, 2019 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

I use the find function to find the MyCommnet,  where you log in  on my school’s website. Otherwise you’d have to activate the elements list and press the letter m until you hear MyCommnet.

The find dialog really saves me time. I just love NVDA

 😂

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Monday, October 7, 2019 11:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

 

I actually rarely use the find function on for example http://restream.io I jut use elements list to get to title, then social to update my stuff and e to get to the firs the edit field. Man I hope one day I can edit this stuff using the app as it is just more convenient.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on youtube, twitch and mixer. Thanks Restream staff.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 7 Oct 2019, at 8:22, Devin Prater wrote:

Yes, I do like the Find function. I teach my students to use that, over the commonly taught “elements list” dinosaur. Seriously, when a website is mainly reading, the elements list skips so much, and it only makes a blind person’s life harder because if that element isn’t there anymore, or it changes from a link to a button, well there ya go. But if it’s a web app we’re working with, I try to use it as “natively” as possible, turning on focus mode, using Tab, shift+Tab, and keyboard shortcuts as much as possible.



On Oct 7, 2019, at 10:08 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

 

On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 10:51 AM, Gene wrote:

But there are ways of skipping unwanted material and the fact that they are not well known indicates poor training or poor training materials being widely used.

 

The find command is one of the most useful but under or unused feature.

Indeed.   What's worse is how often I see people making the assertion, "You can't do {insert thing X}," which I know for fact you can do, and have been able to do for years.   Or stating that something is inaccessible not because it's actually inaccessible, but because they do not know how to access it.   That's one of the very reasons that questions of the form, "Is {insert program or app here} accessible with NVDA?," are allowed and encouraged on this group.  Though one can install and play with things, and actually should, when a given program either costs money and/or is quite complex it makes perfect sense to try to determine whether it's accessible or not before investing a lot of time in playing with it.   One good thing about groups, though, is that you can easily figure out when an incorrect assertion has been made based upon the typical flow of, "That's just not the case," often accompanied by instructions on how to access something that follows it.

And the screen reader find is one of the most handy and grossly underused features for "quick and dirty" movement around a given cyber landscape that I know of.  One of the tutorials I wrote ages ago,Mass Selection and Deletion of Gmail Messages via the Gmail Web Interface, was in response to several assertions of the "you can't do that, at all" nature that were offered.  And if you don't use the screen reader find function (see step 3) it is impossible to do, but with it, well . . .
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 

 

Re: Are web applications that accessible?

Hope Williamson <hopeisjoyful@...>
 

I use the pass through on Youtube a lot. I don't have autoplay enabled so it's easy to just be able to pass it right through.

Re: Are web applications that accessible?

Sarah k Alawami
 

Yep. I learned all of that on my own through almost 20 years of self training. I was only aloud 8 hours so got very basic training. I've ben on my own ever since. When my dad told me on his non screen reader windows to tab and enter in a password, I was shocked he could use a keyboard for some reason. I thought at that time all sighted people used were mouses? Mice? Well, you get the point. I realized then that what my dad was using was a windows key and not a screen reader key. It was cool and I wanted to learn more, so I did.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on youtube, twitch and mixer. Thanks Restream staff.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 7 Oct 2019, at 8:47, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 11:08 AM, Gene wrote:
Most screen-reader commands, such as h for move by heading, don't require such a key. 
I do not consider the "quick navigation" keys, which I do use and teach folks to use, "most screen-reader commands."    They are a tiny minority of the commands and apply on web pages.

I also stated, explicitly, "there are occasions where there may be some overlap, there can't help but be."

Coming back to your original, and I feel, central point:   It's all about training.    And once you train someone regarding how to go about "structured noodling about" to figure out new commands and methods as they come on the scene, they're golden.

Also, as a part of training, teaching the command processing hierarchy:

1.  Windows.   If Windows doesn't recognize the command then
2.  Screen Reader.  If the screen reader doesn't recognize the command then
3.  Application

goes a long way in teaching folks how they must think about each and every command sequence they enter, and why.   It also helps to make the concept of pass-through a bit clearer, as that's necessary when the screen reader would normally process a given command, but that command is also used for a different purpose by the underlying application and you want the application to do its thing.

Trying to develop a sense of which level processes what commands makes one's own life easier, as there are occasional times where what one might expect doesn't happen, and you can then generally figure out why and how to get the result you're actually after.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 

Re: Are web applications that accessible?

Hope Williamson <hopeisjoyful@...>
 

I enjoy using the find function as well. Particularly on lengthy pages with lots of links and/or information. Navigating with the elements list would just take too long. This is useful on my RSS reader web page for instance. I subscribe to a whole bunch of feeds, over 300.

Re: Are web applications that accessible?

Hope Williamson <hopeisjoyful@...>
 

The basic HTML is actually more efficient for batch processing, which is what I'm usually doing.

Re: Are web applications that accessible?

molly the blind tech lover
 

I use the find function to find the MyCommnet,  where you log in  on my school’s website. Otherwise you’d have to activate the elements list and press the letter m until you hear MyCommnet.

The find dialog really saves me time. I just love NVDA

 😂

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Monday, October 7, 2019 11:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

 

I actually rarely use the find function on for example http://restream.io I jut use elements list to get to title, then social to update my stuff and e to get to the firs the edit field. Man I hope one day I can edit this stuff using the app as it is just more convenient.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on youtube, twitch and mixer. Thanks Restream staff.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 7 Oct 2019, at 8:22, Devin Prater wrote:

Yes, I do like the Find function. I teach my students to use that, over the commonly taught “elements list” dinosaur. Seriously, when a website is mainly reading, the elements list skips so much, and it only makes a blind person’s life harder because if that element isn’t there anymore, or it changes from a link to a button, well there ya go. But if it’s a web app we’re working with, I try to use it as “natively” as possible, turning on focus mode, using Tab, shift+Tab, and keyboard shortcuts as much as possible.



On Oct 7, 2019, at 10:08 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

 

On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 10:51 AM, Gene wrote:

But there are ways of skipping unwanted material and the fact that they are not well known indicates poor training or poor training materials being widely used.

 

The find command is one of the most useful but under or unused feature.

Indeed.   What's worse is how often I see people making the assertion, "You can't do {insert thing X}," which I know for fact you can do, and have been able to do for years.   Or stating that something is inaccessible not because it's actually inaccessible, but because they do not know how to access it.   That's one of the very reasons that questions of the form, "Is {insert program or app here} accessible with NVDA?," are allowed and encouraged on this group.  Though one can install and play with things, and actually should, when a given program either costs money and/or is quite complex it makes perfect sense to try to determine whether it's accessible or not before investing a lot of time in playing with it.   One good thing about groups, though, is that you can easily figure out when an incorrect assertion has been made based upon the typical flow of, "That's just not the case," often accompanied by instructions on how to access something that follows it.

And the screen reader find is one of the most handy and grossly underused features for "quick and dirty" movement around a given cyber landscape that I know of.  One of the tutorials I wrote ages ago,Mass Selection and Deletion of Gmail Messages via the Gmail Web Interface, was in response to several assertions of the "you can't do that, at all" nature that were offered.  And if you don't use the screen reader find function (see step 3) it is impossible to do, but with it, well . . .
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 

 

Re: Are web applications that accessible?

Gene
 

I hope someone discusses the feature I discussed where NVDA allows application commands to pass to the web application even if you are in browse mode.  I don't know enough about it to discuss it.
 
As for your browse mode off comments, that is another way of using web application commands.  I don't know when or how you learned to use the Internet so I don't know if your misunderstanding is due to when you learned, before browse mode was available in screen-readers, or the result of poor instruction or poor instructional materials.
 
Browse mode is not directly working with the web page.  When You turn browse mode off, you are directly working with the web page.
 
To make this clear to students, I strongly believe that automatic switching between browse mode and forms mode by the screen-reader should be disabled and the student should have to manually switch.  Not teaching in this way breeds confusion and is, in my strong opinion, just one more example of why so many people don't know how to use the Internet well.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, October 07, 2019 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

Hi Gene,
If it were just h, I don't think it'd be an issue. But of course we have
everything else (I think J, P, Y and Z are the only letters in the
alphabet not to have functions associated with them). Of course many of
these are very useful - I use them all the time. But the question then
becomes, what takes precedence, NVDA's keys, or the web app's keys?
Usually, I tend to find the former. It's only very recently (I'm talking
a matter of days) when I learned that you could use shortcuts with focus
mode, and that essentially my whole understanding of interfaces and
navigation was just wrong on so many levels.
Cheers,
Damien.

On 07/10/2019 04:08 pm, Gene wrote:
> Most screen-reader commands, such as h for move by heading, don't
> require such a key.  If you are going to use a web site shortcut, if you
> are in browse mode, you may have to use the pass through command first,
> or switch to forms mode, or, in other words, turn browse mode off.  But
> NVDA, in newer versions, has a feature that allows you to send web page
> short cut keys wile still in browse mode.  I haven't used it but it
> allows you to send commands and allows them to reach the web page where,
> if not for this feature, browse mode wouldn't allow this.
> I believe JAWS has a similar feature.
> Those who use this feature will, I hope, comment further.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* Brian Vogel <mailto:britechguy@...>
> *Sent:* Monday, October 07, 2019 9:58 AM
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?
>
> On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 09:23 AM, Damien Garwood wrote:
>
>     So of course, when I see websites refer to keyboard shortcuts, my
>     first thought is, well done for trying, but that's useless to most
>     screen reader users because the screen reader uses its own
>     keystrokes for navigational tasks and other things, meaning they
>     would be blocked.
>
> This is absolutely, positively not typically the case.   In particular
> because most screen reader commands require the "screen reader prefix
> key" as part of the command, and virtually no other commands, be they
> Windows, application program, or web application ever use what is the
> screen reader prefix key.
>
> There was a time, before Windows itself, when keyboard shortcuts were
> used pretty much exclusively to work with programs quickly and easily. 
> They date from the days of DOS, and there are very few that changed
> since that time.
>
> There are occasions where there may be some overlap, there can't help
> but be, and even then that's what screen readers have the
> pass-through-key feature for.
>
> --
>
> Brian *-*Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362
>
> *The color of truth is grey.*
>
> ~ André Gide
>
>


Re: Are web applications that accessible?

Hope Williamson <hopeisjoyful@...>
 

I might be old-fashion but if I'm using Gmail I do still use the basic HTML feature. Regarding the reply, forward etc links, those are just further actions, and aren't part of the message header. I have a different address that you actually have to click on a "further actions" link to get to the forward and reply all links.

Re: Are web applications that accessible?

 

On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 11:08 AM, Gene wrote:
Most screen-reader commands, such as h for move by heading, don't require such a key. 
I do not consider the "quick navigation" keys, which I do use and teach folks to use, "most screen-reader commands."    They are a tiny minority of the commands and apply on web pages.

I also stated, explicitly, "there are occasions where there may be some overlap, there can't help but be."

Coming back to your original, and I feel, central point:   It's all about training.    And once you train someone regarding how to go about "structured noodling about" to figure out new commands and methods as they come on the scene, they're golden.

Also, as a part of training, teaching the command processing hierarchy:

1.  Windows.   If Windows doesn't recognize the command then
2.  Screen Reader.  If the screen reader doesn't recognize the command then
3.  Application

goes a long way in teaching folks how they must think about each and every command sequence they enter, and why.   It also helps to make the concept of pass-through a bit clearer, as that's necessary when the screen reader would normally process a given command, but that command is also used for a different purpose by the underlying application and you want the application to do its thing.

Trying to develop a sense of which level processes what commands makes one's own life easier, as there are occasional times where what one might expect doesn't happen, and you can then generally figure out why and how to get the result you're actually after.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 

Re: Are web applications that accessible?

Gene
 

It doesn't matter what a web page element is for in terms of a sighted user.  The purpose of telling a blind student to use the check box is to help the student learn to recognize patterns on web pages and this is one pattern.  On a new page, where usual means don't work well, the student either learns to look at the page and find patterns such as this or the student flounders on any page that doesn't implement such things as move by headings as the blind person expects. 
 
A mailbox isn't placed at a certain part of a sidewalk to tell a blind person that the building he is looking for is to the right of the mailbox but what good blind traveler wouldn't use such a means of locating the building efficiently?  Intent, as to how a sighted person works is irrelevant.  How a blind person can use such elements and patterns is what is relevant.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, October 07, 2019 10:18 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

No.
I use the keyboard commands given by Gmail for use within their web app. J to go to the next conversation, K to go to the previous one. Enter opens a conversation, then N and P move to the previous or next message in that conversation. Its great so far. But then you get excess chatter, which simply slows the screen reader user down.
Sure, one can use the site in browse mode, finding good little tips to go from message to message, but it isn’t intuitive to teach a student to move by check box to get through messages, as that’s just not what check boxes are for, mainly. On the other hand, workarounds have to be used. Indeed, a screen reader is one big workaround. That doesn’t mean that screen reader manufacturers and web app devs should just accept that unneeded speaking of web page elements when navigating by keyboard commands is okay, or even desirable.

On Oct 7, 2019, at 9:51 AM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

So, how do you skip all that?  I don't use GMail on the Internet except to look at the spam filter now and then.  I am not familiar with the supplied short cuts.  But any time you want to jump from message to message, typing x in browse mode takes you to the check box for the next message.  You hear, as I recall, the subject line and the name of the sender.  
 
But there are ways of skipping unwanted material and the fact that they are not well known indicates poor training or poor training materials being widely used.
 
The find command is one of the most useful but under or unused feature.  What is the last consistent line before the message text, or the synopsis, begins?  Find it by looking from the check box down on more than one message.  You will see a pattern.
Do a search for that line and you can then do the following:
x to move to the next message.
Repeat search, you have already searched once by entering the search string, then down arrow once and read to end.
After you do this enough to have it become second nature, it will be reasonably fast and efficient.
 
You can't be a good Internet user in more complex areas of a web page if you rely on what I refer to as "the kindness of strangers.", as is famously said by a character in A Street Car Named Desire.
 
The number of blind people, even those who are generally good computer users, who don't know how to do what I'm describing is clear evidence of the inadequate and poor training received.
 
I don't use web applications enough to discuss the general questions presented here, but GMail isn't a web application in the sense that Google Docx (spelling) is.  It is a layout but you aren't working with an application embedded in the page.
 
And you will see lots of times when doing things such as I describe is important for efficient navigation.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, October 07, 2019 8:44 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

On no, it says “Reply, reply all, forward…” all that, even if you use the keyboard commands to move to the next or previous message.

> On Oct 7, 2019, at 8:14 AM, Hope Williamson <hopeisjoyful@...> wrote:
> 
> There's no reason to leave out normal header information. In other words, the sender, date, time, and the fact that it's from you. If it's like the IP you're referring to, then that's different.
> 
> 
> 




Re: Are web applications that accessible?

Damien Garwood
 

Hi Gene,
If it were just h, I don't think it'd be an issue. But of course we have everything else (I think J, P, Y and Z are the only letters in the alphabet not to have functions associated with them). Of course many of these are very useful - I use them all the time. But the question then becomes, what takes precedence, NVDA's keys, or the web app's keys? Usually, I tend to find the former. It's only very recently (I'm talking a matter of days) when I learned that you could use shortcuts with focus mode, and that essentially my whole understanding of interfaces and navigation was just wrong on so many levels.
Cheers,
Damien.

On 07/10/2019 04:08 pm, Gene wrote:
Most screen-reader commands, such as h for move by heading, don't require such a key.  If you are going to use a web site shortcut, if you are in browse mode, you may have to use the pass through command first, or switch to forms mode, or, in other words, turn browse mode off.  But NVDA, in newer versions, has a feature that allows you to send web page short cut keys wile still in browse mode.  I haven't used it but it allows you to send commands and allows them to reach the web page where, if not for this feature, browse mode wouldn't allow this.
I believe JAWS has a similar feature.
Those who use this feature will, I hope, comment further.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Brian Vogel <mailto:@britechguy>
*Sent:* Monday, October 07, 2019 9:58 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?
On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 09:23 AM, Damien Garwood wrote:
So of course, when I see websites refer to keyboard shortcuts, my
first thought is, well done for trying, but that's useless to most
screen reader users because the screen reader uses its own
keystrokes for navigational tasks and other things, meaning they
would be blocked.
This is absolutely, positively not typically the case.   In particular because most screen reader commands require the "screen reader prefix key" as part of the command, and virtually no other commands, be they Windows, application program, or web application ever use what is the screen reader prefix key.
There was a time, before Windows itself, when keyboard shortcuts were used pretty much exclusively to work with programs quickly and easily. They date from the days of DOS, and there are very few that changed since that time.
There are occasions where there may be some overlap, there can't help but be, and even then that's what screen readers have the pass-through-key feature for.
--
Brian *-*Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362
*The color of truth is grey.*
~ André Gide

Re: Are web applications that accessible?

Sarah k Alawami
 

I actually rarely use the find function on for example http://restream.io I jut use elements list to get to title, then social to update my stuff and e to get to the firs the edit field. Man I hope one day I can edit this stuff using the app as it is just more convenient.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on youtube, twitch and mixer. Thanks Restream staff.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 7 Oct 2019, at 8:22, Devin Prater wrote:

Yes, I do like the Find function. I teach my students to use that, over the commonly taught “elements list” dinosaur. Seriously, when a website is mainly reading, the elements list skips so much, and it only makes a blind person’s life harder because if that element isn’t there anymore, or it changes from a link to a button, well there ya go. But if it’s a web app we’re working with, I try to use it as “natively” as possible, turning on focus mode, using Tab, shift+Tab, and keyboard shortcuts as much as possible.

On Oct 7, 2019, at 10:08 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 10:51 AM, Gene wrote:
But there are ways of skipping unwanted material and the fact that they are not well known indicates poor training or poor training materials being widely used.
 
The find command is one of the most useful but under or unused feature.
Indeed.   What's worse is how often I see people making the assertion, "You can't do {insert thing X}," which I know for fact you can do, and have been able to do for years.   Or stating that something is inaccessible not because it's actually inaccessible, but because they do not know how to access it.   That's one of the very reasons that questions of the form, "Is {insert program or app here} accessible with NVDA?," are allowed and encouraged on this group.  Though one can install and play with things, and actually should, when a given program either costs money and/or is quite complex it makes perfect sense to try to determine whether it's accessible or not before investing a lot of time in playing with it.   One good thing about groups, though, is that you can easily figure out when an incorrect assertion has been made based upon the typical flow of, "That's just not the case," often accompanied by instructions on how to access something that follows it.

And the screen reader find is one of the most handy and grossly underused features for "quick and dirty" movement around a given cyber landscape that I know of.  One of the tutorials I wrote ages ago,Mass Selection and Deletion of Gmail Messages via the Gmail Web Interface, was in response to several assertions of the "you can't do that, at all" nature that were offered.  And if you don't use the screen reader find function (see step 3) it is impossible to do, but with it, well . . .
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide