Topics

FW: [win10] Version 1709 and beyond: screen readers must support uIA notification event in order to announce various things from apps #winten1803 #advisory #winten1709

 

Hi all,

 

First, apologies for mentioning competition, but I felt it is best to do so given the overall context. Second, the advisory is deemed major (to severe for some cases) and is applicable for people running Windows 10 Fall Creators Update and beyond. The source of this advisory is a Win10 forum hosted on Groups.IO at https://win10.groups.io/g/win10.

 

Thanks.

 

From: win10@win10.groups.io [mailto:win10@win10.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2018 9:42 AM
To: win10@win10.groups.io
Subject: [win10] Version 1709 and beyond: screen readers must support uIA notification event in order to announce various things from apps #ADVISORY #WinTen1709 #WinTen1803

 

Hi everyone,

 

The following advisory is considered major in that it impacts all known screen readers )except for one or two; feel free to pass this on, although please do cite where you’ve got the advisory from):

 

Problem: notifications from apps such as Calculator, Microsoft Store and others are not announced by screen readers.

 

Background: in Windows 10 Version 1709 and later, if apps are written correctly, they can send notification texts to be announced by screen readers. A UIA client such as a screen reader must be able to catch this in order to announce certain notifications, including Calculator’s display window, app update status in Microsoft Store, various notifications from Edge, Alarms and Clock and other apps.

 

Steps to reproduce:

 

  1. While using Windows 10 Version 1709 or later (including current Insider Preview builds), launch an app such as Alarms and Clock (be sure it is the latest version).
  2. In case of Alarms and Clock, go to Stopwatch tab and start and stop the stopwatch.
  3. For Calculator, do some calculations.

 

Expected: screen reader announces messages such as “Stopwatch stopped” in Alarms and Clock and “display is something” in Calculator.

Actual: only Narrator announces such texts.

Cause: other screen readers do not track UIA notification event. This is due to the fact that Version 1709 introduces this event, which requires tracking a newer UIA interface.

 

Known solutions/mitigations/workarounds and impact:

 

  • Narrator: green light/okay; works out of the box (requires Version 1709 and later).
  • JAWS for Windows: red light/major; no support (version 2018.1802.78 did not solve the Calculator display text problem, for instance).
  • NonVisual Desktop Access: yellow light/solution being tested (through an add-on update).

 

This advisory will be closed once major screen readers (in addition to the three listed above) provides at least a basic solution.

 

Cheers,

Joseph

 

Hi,

In case of NVDA, the solution will be in the form of Windows 10 App Essentials add-on version 18.03 (next week).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2018 9:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] FW: [win10] Version 1709 and beyond: screen readers must support uIA notification event in order to announce various things from apps #ADVISORY #WinTen1709 #WinTen1803

 

Hi all,

 

First, apologies for mentioning competition, but I felt it is best to do so given the overall context. Second, the advisory is deemed major (to severe for some cases) and is applicable for people running Windows 10 Fall Creators Update and beyond. The source of this advisory is a Win10 forum hosted on Groups.IO at https://win10.groups.io/g/win10.

 

Thanks.

 

From: win10@win10.groups.io [mailto:win10@win10.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2018 9:42 AM
To: win10@win10.groups.io
Subject: [win10] Version 1709 and beyond: screen readers must support uIA notification event in order to announce various things from apps #ADVISORY #WinTen1709 #WinTen1803

 

Hi everyone,

 

The following advisory is considered major in that it impacts all known screen readers )except for one or two; feel free to pass this on, although please do cite where you’ve got the advisory from):

 

Problem: notifications from apps such as Calculator, Microsoft Store and others are not announced by screen readers.

 

Background: in Windows 10 Version 1709 and later, if apps are written correctly, they can send notification texts to be announced by screen readers. A UIA client such as a screen reader must be able to catch this in order to announce certain notifications, including Calculator’s display window, app update status in Microsoft Store, various notifications from Edge, Alarms and Clock and other apps.

 

Steps to reproduce:

 

  1. While using Windows 10 Version 1709 or later (including current Insider Preview builds), launch an app such as Alarms and Clock (be sure it is the latest version).
  2. In case of Alarms and Clock, go to Stopwatch tab and start and stop the stopwatch.
  3. For Calculator, do some calculations.

 

Expected: screen reader announces messages such as “Stopwatch stopped” in Alarms and Clock and “display is something” in Calculator.

Actual: only Narrator announces such texts.

Cause: other screen readers do not track UIA notification event. This is due to the fact that Version 1709 introduces this event, which requires tracking a newer UIA interface.

 

Known solutions/mitigations/workarounds and impact:

 

  • Narrator: green light/okay; works out of the box (requires Version 1709 and later).
  • JAWS for Windows: red light/major; no support (version 2018.1802.78 did not solve the Calculator display text problem, for instance).
  • NonVisual Desktop Access: yellow light/solution being tested (through an add-on update).

 

This advisory will be closed once major screen readers (in addition to the three listed above) provides at least a basic solution.

 

Cheers,

Joseph

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

It seems to me like Microsoft are slipping back into the ways that got them into the brown sticky stuff with edge. Ie changing things and putting out releases with no advisory to the screenreader community of a big change in the system. we have seen it in Skype recently too. Somebody over there at Microsoft needs to get a better grip on changes that affect access software and not merely assume narrator is all that matters.

Narrator is still too slow and clunky to use every day.
I was going to get a windows 10 machine but until they stop messing about I'm sorely tempted to stay old fashioned!

Have they lost that Jenny whats her name from the accessibility management who seemed to do a good job before?
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <@joslee>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2018 5:46 PM
Subject: [nvda] FW: [win10] Version 1709 and beyond: screen readers must support uIA notification event in order to announce various things from apps #ADVISORY #WinTen1709 #WinTen1803


Hi all,



First, apologies for mentioning competition, but I felt it is best to do so
given the overall context. Second, the advisory is deemed major (to severe
for some cases) and is applicable for people running Windows 10 Fall
Creators Update and beyond. The source of this advisory is a Win10 forum
hosted on Groups.IO at https://win10.groups.io/g/win10.



Thanks.



From: win10@win10.groups.io [mailto:win10@win10.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Joseph Lee
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2018 9:42 AM
To: win10@win10.groups.io
Subject: [win10] Version 1709 and beyond: screen readers must support uIA
notification event in order to announce various things from apps #ADVISORY
#WinTen1709 #WinTen1803



Hi everyone,



The following advisory is considered major in that it impacts all known
screen readers )except for one or two; feel free to pass this on, although
please do cite where you've got the advisory from):



Problem: notifications from apps such as Calculator, Microsoft Store and
others are not announced by screen readers.



Background: in Windows 10 Version 1709 and later, if apps are written
correctly, they can send notification texts to be announced by screen
readers. A UIA client such as a screen reader must be able to catch this in
order to announce certain notifications, including Calculator's display
window, app update status in Microsoft Store, various notifications from
Edge, Alarms and Clock and other apps.



Steps to reproduce:



1. While using Windows 10 Version 1709 or later (including current
Insider Preview builds), launch an app such as Alarms and Clock (be sure it
is the latest version).
2. In case of Alarms and Clock, go to Stopwatch tab and start and stop
the stopwatch.
3. For Calculator, do some calculations.



Expected: screen reader announces messages such as "Stopwatch stopped" in
Alarms and Clock and "display is something" in Calculator.

Actual: only Narrator announces such texts.

Cause: other screen readers do not track UIA notification event. This is due
to the fact that Version 1709 introduces this event, which requires tracking
a newer UIA interface.



Known solutions/mitigations/workarounds and impact:



* Narrator: green light/okay; works out of the box (requires Version
1709 and later).
* JAWS for Windows: red light/major; no support (version 2018.1802.78
did not solve the Calculator display text problem, for instance).
* NonVisual Desktop Access: yellow light/solution being tested
(through an add-on update).



This advisory will be closed once major screen readers (in addition to the
three listed above) provides at least a basic solution.



Cheers,

Joseph



 

From what I have read, they lost her. I don't see her name on anything recent when I do a Google search. I'm not completely certain though and, yeah. I hear you. XP still is the best thing Microsoft created.

 

Hi,

No, Jenny is still around and leading accessibility efforts at Microsoft.

In response to a post regarding MS slipping back to dark ages: in this context (the overall thread), both sides (MS and screen reader vendors) are at fault: Microsoft for not communicating things well, and screen reader vendors taking a while to respond. At least NVDA is taking the lead in responding back.

As for what’s going on behind the scenes: NVDA did not respond to UIA notification events. We did have means of tracking it for a while (via an add-on), but it wasn’t until yesterday that we began responding properly (again via an add-on update). For those who know where this is going: yes, NVDA will read UIA notification text starting next week once Windows 10 App Essentials 18.03 is released. But this is just a start: I’m using that ad-on to field test what will eventually be edits to NVDA screen reader source code to let NVDA announce notifications without help from an add-on or two (and I’m working on both of these at the moment). This is the reason why I put “yellow light” for NVDA because work is in progress to let NVDA announce notifications.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Robert Kingett
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2018 5:45 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] FW: [win10] Version 1709 and beyond: screen readers must support uIA notification event in order to announce various things from apps #ADVISORY #WinTen1709 #WinTen1803

 

From what I have read, they lost her. I don't see her name on anything recent when I do a Google search. I'm not completely certain though and, yeah. I hear you. XP still is the best thing Microsoft created.

Lino Morales
 

I agree with Joseph here also. He and I had a nice 20 MIN or so talk on Skype last night and yes Jenny is still at MS. And Robert XP is dead. Embrace the future of WIN 10 and as I always say viva la NVDA!

 

Lino Morales

 

From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2018 12:59 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] FW: [win10] Version 1709 and beyond: screen readers must support uIA notification event in order to announce various things from apps #ADVISORY #WinTen1709 #WinTen1803

 

Hi,

No, Jenny is still around and leading accessibility efforts at Microsoft.

In response to a post regarding MS slipping back to dark ages: in this context (the overall thread), both sides (MS and screen reader vendors) are at fault: Microsoft for not communicating things well, and screen reader vendors taking a while to respond. At least NVDA is taking the lead in responding back.

As for what’s going on behind the scenes: NVDA did not respond to UIA notification events. We did have means of tracking it for a while (via an add-on), but it wasn’t until yesterday that we began responding properly (again via an add-on update). For those who know where this is going: yes, NVDA will read UIA notification text starting next week once Windows 10 App Essentials 18.03 is released. But this is just a start: I’m using that ad-on to field test what will eventually be edits to NVDA screen reader source code to let NVDA announce notifications without help from an add-on or two (and I’m working on both of these at the moment). This is the reason why I put “yellow light” for NVDA because work is in progress to let NVDA announce notifications.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Robert Kingett
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2018 5:45 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] FW: [win10] Version 1709 and beyond: screen readers must support uIA notification event in order to announce various things from apps #ADVISORY #WinTen1709 #WinTen1803

 

From what I have read, they lost her. I don't see her name on anything recent when I do a Google search. I'm not completely certain though and, yeah. I hear you. XP still is the best thing Microsoft created.

 

Adriani Botez
 

Dear all, dear Joseph,

 

I was an user of Jaws, Window Eyes, Dolphin and Cobra. I had conversations with developers of any of these screen readers and I always got the impression that everyone wants to push his own concept of screen reading. Developers are trying to compete through different concepts. The biggest disadvantage of this approach is that users of these screen readers have a totally different perception of accessibility. Currently I am providing support for Cobra screen reader users who are changing to NVDA. And I am so glad to be in this community! I mean, NVDA tries to put all accessibility concepts into one standard which is very important. This is why NVDA users would cope with almost every screen reader but it is not so easy for users of other screen readers to change to NVDA. The reason is that user of other screen readers would have to learn more concepts of getting information digitally.

 

In my view, it was a very big step backwards to make a commercial product out of screen readers which should actually provide a high standard for accessibility. Instead of a common standard approach, we have thousants of users who understand accessibility in very different ways. This makes it difficult for Microsoft and other API providers to consider all these requirements.

 

I can understand that Microsoft cannot answer questions properly because they get lots of different perspectives. And this is the second reason why our community must grow and show that we have a common understanding regarding accessibility. NV Access has to play its important consultant role in conversations with software developers, and ideally other screen reader developers should cooperate with each other to achieve a good standard.

 

But unfortunately we still have a big debate between screen reader users and developers. Many users think that screen reader development can only take place if we have many screen readers. But in fact this would be the wrong way because this would be a break to improvements.

On the other hand developers of commercial screen readers are focusing on their product and do not have open eyes for other concepts of other screen readers. So, they try to keep their conceptual background away from going public, which could happen if they disclose important technical information to Microsoft etc.

 

I thank you Joseph for your crucial work and for your engagement in this community. We rely on developers like you when it comes to accessibility.

 

 

Best

Adriani

 

 

Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Samstag, 24. Februar 2018 18:59
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] FW: [win10] Version 1709 and beyond: screen readers must support uIA notification event in order to announce various things from apps #ADVISORY #WinTen1709 #WinTen1803

 

Hi,

No, Jenny is still around and leading accessibility efforts at Microsoft.

In response to a post regarding MS slipping back to dark ages: in this context (the overall thread), both sides (MS and screen reader vendors) are at fault: Microsoft for not communicating things well, and screen reader vendors taking a while to respond. At least NVDA is taking the lead in responding back.

As for what’s going on behind the scenes: NVDA did not respond to UIA notification events. We did have means of tracking it for a while (via an add-on), but it wasn’t until yesterday that we began responding properly (again via an add-on update). For those who know where this is going: yes, NVDA will read UIA notification text starting next week once Windows 10 App Essentials 18.03 is released. But this is just a start: I’m using that ad-on to field test what will eventually be edits to NVDA screen reader source code to let NVDA announce notifications without help from an add-on or two (and I’m working on both of these at the moment). This is the reason why I put “yellow light” for NVDA because work is in progress to let NVDA announce notifications.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Robert Kingett
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2018 5:45 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] FW: [win10] Version 1709 and beyond: screen readers must support uIA notification event in order to announce various things from apps #ADVISORY #WinTen1709 #WinTen1803

 

From what I have read, they lost her. I don't see her name on anything recent when I do a Google search. I'm not completely certain though and, yeah. I hear you. XP still is the best thing Microsoft created.

Adriani Botez
 

I wish we could discuss with Microsoft about future of accessibility APIs on NVDACon. That would be a great opportunity to bring cooperations a step forward.

 

Best

Adriani

 

Von: Adriani Botez [mailto:adriani.botez@...]
Gesendet: Sonntag, 25. Februar 2018 00:01
An: 'nvda@nvda.groups.io' <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Betreff: AW: [nvda] FW: [win10] Version 1709 and beyond: screen readers must support uIA notification event in order to announce various things from apps #ADVISORY #WinTen1709 #WinTen1803

 

Dear all, dear Joseph,

 

I was an user of Jaws, Window Eyes, Dolphin and Cobra. I had conversations with developers of any of these screen readers and I always got the impression that everyone wants to push his own concept of screen reading. Developers are trying to compete through different concepts. The biggest disadvantage of this approach is that users of these screen readers have a totally different perception of accessibility. Currently I am providing support for Cobra screen reader users who are changing to NVDA. And I am so glad to be in this community! I mean, NVDA tries to put all accessibility concepts into one standard which is very important. This is why NVDA users would cope with almost every screen reader but it is not so easy for users of other screen readers to change to NVDA. The reason is that user of other screen readers would have to learn more concepts of getting information digitally.

 

In my view, it was a very big step backwards to make a commercial product out of screen readers which should actually provide a high standard for accessibility. Instead of a common standard approach, we have thousants of users who understand accessibility in very different ways. This makes it difficult for Microsoft and other API providers to consider all these requirements.

 

I can understand that Microsoft cannot answer questions properly because they get lots of different perspectives. And this is the second reason why our community must grow and show that we have a common understanding regarding accessibility. NV Access has to play its important consultant role in conversations with software developers, and ideally other screen reader developers should cooperate with each other to achieve a good standard.

 

But unfortunately we still have a big debate between screen reader users and developers. Many users think that screen reader development can only take place if we have many screen readers. But in fact this would be the wrong way because this would be a break to improvements.

On the other hand developers of commercial screen readers are focusing on their product and do not have open eyes for other concepts of other screen readers. So, they try to keep their conceptual background away from going public, which could happen if they disclose important technical information to Microsoft etc.

 

I thank you Joseph for your crucial work and for your engagement in this community. We rely on developers like you when it comes to accessibility.

 

 

Best

Adriani

 

 

Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Samstag, 24. Februar 2018 18:59
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] FW: [win10] Version 1709 and beyond: screen readers must support uIA notification event in order to announce various things from apps #ADVISORY #WinTen1709 #WinTen1803

 

Hi,

No, Jenny is still around and leading accessibility efforts at Microsoft.

In response to a post regarding MS slipping back to dark ages: in this context (the overall thread), both sides (MS and screen reader vendors) are at fault: Microsoft for not communicating things well, and screen reader vendors taking a while to respond. At least NVDA is taking the lead in responding back.

As for what’s going on behind the scenes: NVDA did not respond to UIA notification events. We did have means of tracking it for a while (via an add-on), but it wasn’t until yesterday that we began responding properly (again via an add-on update). For those who know where this is going: yes, NVDA will read UIA notification text starting next week once Windows 10 App Essentials 18.03 is released. But this is just a start: I’m using that ad-on to field test what will eventually be edits to NVDA screen reader source code to let NVDA announce notifications without help from an add-on or two (and I’m working on both of these at the moment). This is the reason why I put “yellow light” for NVDA because work is in progress to let NVDA announce notifications.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Robert Kingett
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2018 5:45 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] FW: [win10] Version 1709 and beyond: screen readers must support uIA notification event in order to announce various things from apps #ADVISORY #WinTen1709 #WinTen1803

 

From what I have read, they lost her. I don't see her name on anything recent when I do a Google search. I'm not completely certain though and, yeah. I hear you. XP still is the best thing Microsoft created.

 

didn't cobra screen reader die when the bomb usa closed down? at least I think that is the correct company

please email me off list so we don't stray off topic


On 2/24/2018 4:00 PM, Adriani Botez wrote:

Dear all, dear Joseph,

 

I was an user of Jaws, Window Eyes, Dolphin and Cobra. I had conversations with developers of any of these screen readers and I always got the impression that everyone wants to push his own concept of screen reading. Developers are trying to compete through different concepts. The biggest disadvantage of this approach is that users of these screen readers have a totally different perception of accessibility. Currently I am providing support for Cobra screen reader users who are changing to NVDA. And I am so glad to be in this community! I mean, NVDA tries to put all accessibility concepts into one standard which is very important. This is why NVDA users would cope with almost every screen reader but it is not so easy for users of other screen readers to change to NVDA. The reason is that user of other screen readers would have to learn more concepts of getting information digitally.

 

In my view, it was a very big step backwards to make a commercial product out of screen readers which should actually provide a high standard for accessibility. Instead of a common standard approach, we have thousants of users who understand accessibility in very different ways. This makes it difficult for Microsoft and other API providers to consider all these requirements.

 

I can understand that Microsoft cannot answer questions properly because they get lots of different perspectives. And this is the second reason why our community must grow and show that we have a common understanding regarding accessibility. NV Access has to play its important consultant role in conversations with software developers, and ideally other screen reader developers should cooperate with each other to achieve a good standard.

 

But unfortunately we still have a big debate between screen reader users and developers. Many users think that screen reader development can only take place if we have many screen readers. But in fact this would be the wrong way because this would be a break to improvements.

On the other hand developers of commercial screen readers are focusing on their product and do not have open eyes for other concepts of other screen readers. So, they try to keep their conceptual background away from going public, which could happen if they disclose important technical information to Microsoft etc.

 

I thank you Joseph for your crucial work and for your engagement in this community. We rely on developers like you when it comes to accessibility.

 

 

Best

Adriani

 

 

Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Samstag, 24. Februar 2018 18:59
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] FW: [win10] Version 1709 and beyond: screen readers must support uIA notification event in order to announce various things from apps #ADVISORY #WinTen1709 #WinTen1803

 

Hi,

No, Jenny is still around and leading accessibility efforts at Microsoft.

In response to a post regarding MS slipping back to dark ages: in this context (the overall thread), both sides (MS and screen reader vendors) are at fault: Microsoft for not communicating things well, and screen reader vendors taking a while to respond. At least NVDA is taking the lead in responding back.

As for what’s going on behind the scenes: NVDA did not respond to UIA notification events. We did have means of tracking it for a while (via an add-on), but it wasn’t until yesterday that we began responding properly (again via an add-on update). For those who know where this is going: yes, NVDA will read UIA notification text starting next week once Windows 10 App Essentials 18.03 is released. But this is just a start: I’m using that ad-on to field test what will eventually be edits to NVDA screen reader source code to let NVDA announce notifications without help from an add-on or two (and I’m working on both of these at the moment). This is the reason why I put “yellow light” for NVDA because work is in progress to let NVDA announce notifications.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Robert Kingett
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2018 5:45 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] FW: [win10] Version 1709 and beyond: screen readers must support uIA notification event in order to announce various things from apps #ADVISORY #WinTen1709 #WinTen1803

 

From what I have read, they lost her. I don't see her name on anything recent when I do a Google search. I'm not completely certain though and, yeah. I hear you. XP still is the best thing Microsoft created.


Gene
 

I haven't used Dolphin and Cobra.  But JAWS and Window-eyes, though they had different interfaces, used the same general approach to accessibility.  You moved the virtual mouse with different commands, but you moved it to accomplish the same things.  Many commands were different.  Read title bar in Window-eyes is control shift t.  In JAWS and NVDA, it is JAWS key or NVEDA key t.  the concept is the same and what is being read is the same and the reason for the command is the same.  A lot of what you do with a screen-reader actually is working with Windows and program commands.  People make far too much of the ddifferences between the major Windows screen-readers I'm familiar with because they don't understand the important and basic concept that a lot of what you do is with Windows and program commands. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2018 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] FW: [win10] Version 1709 and beyond: screen readers must support uIA notification event in order to announce various things from apps #ADVISORY #WinTen1709 #WinTen1803

Dear all, dear Joseph,

 

I was an user of Jaws, Window Eyes, Dolphin and Cobra. I had conversations with developers of any of these screen readers and I always got the impression that everyone wants to push his own concept of screen reading. Developers are trying to compete through different concepts. The biggest disadvantage of this approach is that users of these screen readers have a totally different perception of accessibility. Currently I am providing support for Cobra screen reader users who are changing to NVDA. And I am so glad to be in this community! I mean, NVDA tries to put all accessibility concepts into one standard which is very important. This is why NVDA users would cope with almost every screen reader but it is not so easy for users of other screen readers to change to NVDA. The reason is that user of other screen readers would have to learn more concepts of getting information digitally.

 

In my view, it was a very big step backwards to make a commercial product out of screen readers which should actually provide a high standard for accessibility. Instead of a common standard approach, we have thousants of users who understand accessibility in very different ways. This makes it difficult for Microsoft and other API providers to consider all these requirements.

 

I can understand that Microsoft cannot answer questions properly because they get lots of different perspectives. And this is the second reason why our community must grow and show that we have a common understanding regarding accessibility. NV Access has to play its important consultant role in conversations with software developers, and ideally other screen reader developers should cooperate with each other to achieve a good standard.

 

But unfortunately we still have a big debate between screen reader users and developers. Many users think that screen reader development can only take place if we have many screen readers. But in fact this would be the wrong way because this would be a break to improvements.

On the other hand developers of commercial screen readers are focusing on their product and do not have open eyes for other concepts of other screen readers. So, they try to keep their conceptual background away from going public, which could happen if they disclose important technical information to Microsoft etc.

 

I thank you Joseph for your crucial work and for your engagement in this community. We rely on developers like you when it comes to accessibility.

 

 

Best

Adriani

 

 

Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Samstag, 24. Februar 2018 18:59
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] FW: [win10] Version 1709 and beyond: screen readers must support uIA notification event in order to announce various things from apps #ADVISORY #WinTen1709 #WinTen1803

 

Hi,

No, Jenny is still around and leading accessibility efforts at Microsoft.

In response to a post regarding MS slipping back to dark ages: in this context (the overall thread), both sides (MS and screen reader vendors) are at fault: Microsoft for not communicating things well, and screen reader vendors taking a while to respond. At least NVDA is taking the lead in responding back.

As for what’s going on behind the scenes: NVDA did not respond to UIA notification events. We did have means of tracking it for a while (via an add-on), but it wasn’t until yesterday that we began responding properly (again via an add-on update). For those who know where this is going: yes, NVDA will read UIA notification text starting next week once Windows 10 App Essentials 18.03 is released. But this is just a start: I’m using that ad-on to field test what will eventually be edits to NVDA screen reader source code to let NVDA announce notifications without help from an add-on or two (and I’m working on both of these at the moment). This is the reason why I put “yellow light” for NVDA because work is in progress to let NVDA announce notifications.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Robert Kingett
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2018 5:45 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] FW: [win10] Version 1709 and beyond: screen readers must support uIA notification event in order to announce various things from apps #ADVISORY #WinTen1709 #WinTen1803

 

From what I have read, they lost her. I don't see her name on anything recent when I do a Google search. I'm not completely certain though and, yeah. I hear you. XP still is the best thing Microsoft created.

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

She only just became a US citizen, being British of course. She seemed to get accessibility.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Kingett" <@blindjourno>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2018 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] FW: [win10] Version 1709 and beyond: screen readers must support uIA notification event in order to announce various things from apps #ADVISORY #WinTen1709 #WinTen1803


From what I have read, they lost her. I don't see her name on anything recent when I do a Google search. I'm not completely certain though and, yeah. I hear you. XP still is the best thing Microsoft created.

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Oh good, as listening to her interview last year she sounded very committed to me.
I do feel that a company like Microsoft should not put stuff out like this without properly testing it with real world access tools though, and if they are changing stuff like Skype and using via for more things they really need to delay till everyone else catches up, what is a couple of months in the great scheme of things. We have seen this with Firefox recently and there are probably other bits of software out there with issues too.
The decision for many is this.
Go with what you have and hope windows 10 settles down to just updates, or go for it now and get periodic loss of access. The former is my choice as I use the pc a lot for my communications and charity work, but if you have more than one device its often a good idea to keep both just in case of course!
I'd be scratching my head if I only had one puter and it was on this crazy windows 10 new version every few months treadmill at the moment. I have always steered clear of online systems like google mail and docs since one unfortunate change in a web site can spell disaster. That is why I still use outlook express and an older version of word and windows 7.
Eggs in one basket is an old but very true proverb.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <@joslee>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2018 5:58 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] FW: [win10] Version 1709 and beyond: screen readers must support uIA notification event in order to announce various things from apps #ADVISORY #WinTen1709 #WinTen1803


Hi,

No, Jenny is still around and leading accessibility efforts at Microsoft.

In response to a post regarding MS slipping back to dark ages: in this context (the overall thread), both sides (MS and screen reader vendors) are at fault: Microsoft for not communicating things well, and screen reader vendors taking a while to respond. At least NVDA is taking the lead in responding back.

As for what’s going on behind the scenes: NVDA did not respond to UIA notification events. We did have means of tracking it for a while (via an add-on), but it wasn’t until yesterday that we began responding properly (again via an add-on update). For those who know where this is going: yes, NVDA will read UIA notification text starting next week once Windows 10 App Essentials 18.03 is released. But this is just a start: I’m using that ad-on to field test what will eventually be edits to NVDA screen reader source code to let NVDA announce notifications without help from an add-on or two (and I’m working on both of these at the moment). This is the reason why I put “yellow light” for NVDA because work is in progress to let NVDA announce notifications.

Cheers,

Joseph



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Robert Kingett
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2018 5:45 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] FW: [win10] Version 1709 and beyond: screen readers must support uIA notification event in order to announce various things from apps #ADVISORY #WinTen1709 #WinTen1803



From what I have read, they lost her. I don't see her name on anything recent when I do a Google search. I'm not completely certain though and, yeah. I hear you. XP still is the best thing Microsoft created.

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

XP should be dead, but there are as I said once before there are still reasons due to politics, wealth or lack of it and other things where a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush if that bush is not available to you right now!


Eventually of course you will be restricted to old software.
I came across a lady a couple of weeks ago still running windows 98, and the machine was on line and did not have any viruses at all.
Of course she was the only user and was using an old version of supernova on it. Until the hardware dies, it will probably suit her. its debatable which will go first her or the hardware!

Brian
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Lino Morales" <linomorales001@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2018 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] FW: [win10] Version 1709 and beyond: screen readers must support uIA notification event in order to announce various things from apps #ADVISORY #WinTen1709 #WinTen1803


I agree with Joseph here also. He and I had a nice 20 MIN or so talk on Skype last night and yes Jenny is still at MS. And Robert XP is dead. Embrace the future of WIN 10 and as I always say viva la NVDA!

Lino Morales

From: Joseph Lee<mailto:@joslee>
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2018 12:59 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] FW: [win10] Version 1709 and beyond: screen readers must support uIA notification event in order to announce various things from apps #ADVISORY #WinTen1709 #WinTen1803

Hi,
No, Jenny is still around and leading accessibility efforts at Microsoft.
In response to a post regarding MS slipping back to dark ages: in this context (the overall thread), both sides (MS and screen reader vendors) are at fault: Microsoft for not communicating things well, and screen reader vendors taking a while to respond. At least NVDA is taking the lead in responding back.
As for what’s going on behind the scenes: NVDA did not respond to UIA notification events. We did have means of tracking it for a while (via an add-on), but it wasn’t until yesterday that we began responding properly (again via an add-on update). For those who know where this is going: yes, NVDA will read UIA notification text starting next week once Windows 10 App Essentials 18.03 is released. But this is just a start: I’m using that ad-on to field test what will eventually be edits to NVDA screen reader source code to let NVDA announce notifications without help from an add-on or two (and I’m working on both of these at the moment). This is the reason why I put “yellow light” for NVDA because work is in progress to let NVDA announce notifications.
Cheers,
Joseph

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Robert Kingett
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2018 5:45 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] FW: [win10] Version 1709 and beyond: screen readers must support uIA notification event in order to announce various things from apps #ADVISORY #WinTen1709 #WinTen1803

From what I have read, they lost her. I don't see her name on anything recent when I do a Google search. I'm not completely certain though and, yeah. I hear you. XP still is the best thing Microsoft created.

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

This is the downside of the so called free market of course. You will note that Apple build in their screenreader, and hence there are no third party ones. However is the apple offering the best thing? No as there are still apple ready bits of software ported over that do not work with their screenreader, in the same way we see ported over code compiled for windows which was written for something else and hence has no access at all.
Quite what the answer is here I'm not sure and its probably a debate for a more open forum than this one.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Adriani Botez" <adriani.botez@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2018 11:00 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] FW: [win10] Version 1709 and beyond: screen readers must support uIA notification event in order to announce various things from apps #ADVISORY #WinTen1709 #WinTen1803


Dear all, dear Joseph,



I was an user of Jaws, Window Eyes, Dolphin and Cobra. I had conversations with developers of any of these screen readers and I always got the impression that everyone wants to push his own concept of screen reading. Developers are trying to compete through different concepts. The biggest disadvantage of this approach is that users of these screen readers have a totally different perception of accessibility. Currently I am providing support for Cobra screen reader users who are changing to NVDA. And I am so glad to be in this community! I mean, NVDA tries to put all accessibility concepts into one standard which is very important. This is why NVDA users would cope with almost every screen reader but it is not so easy for users of other screen readers to change to NVDA. The reason is that user of other screen readers would have to learn more concepts of getting information digitally.



In my view, it was a very big step backwards to make a commercial product out of screen readers which should actually provide a high standard for accessibility. Instead of a common standard approach, we have thousants of users who understand accessibility in very different ways. This makes it difficult for Microsoft and other API providers to consider all these requirements.



I can understand that Microsoft cannot answer questions properly because they get lots of different perspectives. And this is the second reason why our community must grow and show that we have a common understanding regarding accessibility. NV Access has to play its important consultant role in conversations with software developers, and ideally other screen reader developers should cooperate with each other to achieve a good standard.



But unfortunately we still have a big debate between screen reader users and developers. Many users think that screen reader development can only take place if we have many screen readers. But in fact this would be the wrong way because this would be a break to improvements.

On the other hand developers of commercial screen readers are focusing on their product and do not have open eyes for other concepts of other screen readers. So, they try to keep their conceptual background away from going public, which could happen if they disclose important technical information to Microsoft etc.



I thank you Joseph for your crucial work and for your engagement in this community. We rely on developers like you when it comes to accessibility.





Best

Adriani





Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Samstag, 24. Februar 2018 18:59
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] FW: [win10] Version 1709 and beyond: screen readers must support uIA notification event in order to announce various things from apps #ADVISORY #WinTen1709 #WinTen1803



Hi,

No, Jenny is still around and leading accessibility efforts at Microsoft.

In response to a post regarding MS slipping back to dark ages: in this context (the overall thread), both sides (MS and screen reader vendors) are at fault: Microsoft for not communicating things well, and screen reader vendors taking a while to respond. At least NVDA is taking the lead in responding back.

As for what’s going on behind the scenes: NVDA did not respond to UIA notification events. We did have means of tracking it for a while (via an add-on), but it wasn’t until yesterday that we began responding properly (again via an add-on update). For those who know where this is going: yes, NVDA will read UIA notification text starting next week once Windows 10 App Essentials 18.03 is released. But this is just a start: I’m using that ad-on to field test what will eventually be edits to NVDA screen reader source code to let NVDA announce notifications without help from an add-on or two (and I’m working on both of these at the moment). This is the reason why I put “yellow light” for NVDA because work is in progress to let NVDA announce notifications.

Cheers,

Joseph



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Robert Kingett
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2018 5:45 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] FW: [win10] Version 1709 and beyond: screen readers must support uIA notification event in order to announce various things from apps #ADVISORY #WinTen1709 #WinTen1803



From what I have read, they lost her. I don't see her name on anything recent when I do a Google search. I'm not completely certain though and, yeah. I hear you. XP still is the best thing Microsoft created.

 

I noticed that supernova/dolphin products were not included on the screen readers list.

On 24/02/2018 6:47 a.m., Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,

In case of NVDA, the solution will be in the form of Windows 10 App
Essentials add-on version 18.03 (next week).

Cheers,

Joseph


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph
Lee
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2018 9:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] FW: [win10] Version 1709 and beyond: screen readers must
support uIA notification event in order to announce various things from apps
#ADVISORY #WinTen1709 #WinTen1803


Hi all,


First, apologies for mentioning competition, but I felt it is best to do so
given the overall context. Second, the advisory is deemed major (to severe
for some cases) and is applicable for people running Windows 10 Fall
Creators Update and beyond. The source of this advisory is a Win10 forum
hosted on Groups.IO at https://win10.groups.io/g/win10.


Thanks.


From: win10@win10.groups.io <mailto:win10@win10.groups.io>
[mailto:win10@win10.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2018 9:42 AM
To: win10@win10.groups.io <mailto:win10@win10.groups.io>
Subject: [win10] Version 1709 and beyond: screen readers must support uIA
notification event in order to announce various things from apps #ADVISORY
#WinTen1709 #WinTen1803


Hi everyone,


The following advisory is considered major in that it impacts all known
screen readers )except for one or two; feel free to pass this on, although
please do cite where you've got the advisory from):


Problem: notifications from apps such as Calculator, Microsoft Store and
others are not announced by screen readers.


Background: in Windows 10 Version 1709 and later, if apps are written
correctly, they can send notification texts to be announced by screen
readers. A UIA client such as a screen reader must be able to catch this in
order to announce certain notifications, including Calculator's display
window, app update status in Microsoft Store, various notifications from
Edge, Alarms and Clock and other apps.


Steps to reproduce:


1. While using Windows 10 Version 1709 or later (including current
Insider Preview builds), launch an app such as Alarms and Clock (be sure it
is the latest version).
2. In case of Alarms and Clock, go to Stopwatch tab and start and stop
the stopwatch.
3. For Calculator, do some calculations.


Expected: screen reader announces messages such as "Stopwatch stopped" in
Alarms and Clock and "display is something" in Calculator.

Actual: only Narrator announces such texts.

Cause: other screen readers do not track UIA notification event. This is due
to the fact that Version 1709 introduces this event, which requires tracking
a newer UIA interface.


Known solutions/mitigations/workarounds and impact:


* Narrator: green light/okay; works out of the box (requires Version
1709 and later).
* JAWS for Windows: red light/major; no support (version 2018.1802.78
did not solve the Calculator display text problem, for instance).
* NonVisual Desktop Access: yellow light/solution being tested
(through an add-on update).


This advisory will be closed once major screen readers (in addition to the
three listed above) provides at least a basic solution.


Cheers,

Joseph



Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Yes strange that as they aggressively advertise over here all the time and apart from the cost aspect, I've always found their staff to be honest and very helpful.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Shaun Everiss" <@smeveriss>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2018 12:46 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] FW: [win10] Version 1709 and beyond: screen readers must support uIA notification event in order to announce various things from apps #ADVISORY #WinTen1709 #WinTen1803


I noticed that supernova/dolphin products were not included on the screen readers list.




On 24/02/2018 6:47 a.m., Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,

In case of NVDA, the solution will be in the form of Windows 10 App
Essentials add-on version 18.03 (next week).

Cheers,

Joseph


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph
Lee
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2018 9:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] FW: [win10] Version 1709 and beyond: screen readers must
support uIA notification event in order to announce various things from apps
#ADVISORY #WinTen1709 #WinTen1803


Hi all,


First, apologies for mentioning competition, but I felt it is best to do so
given the overall context. Second, the advisory is deemed major (to severe
for some cases) and is applicable for people running Windows 10 Fall
Creators Update and beyond. The source of this advisory is a Win10 forum
hosted on Groups.IO at https://win10.groups.io/g/win10.


Thanks.


From: win10@win10.groups.io <mailto:win10@win10.groups.io>
[mailto:win10@win10.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2018 9:42 AM
To: win10@win10.groups.io <mailto:win10@win10.groups.io>
Subject: [win10] Version 1709 and beyond: screen readers must support uIA
notification event in order to announce various things from apps #ADVISORY
#WinTen1709 #WinTen1803


Hi everyone,


The following advisory is considered major in that it impacts all known
screen readers )except for one or two; feel free to pass this on, although
please do cite where you've got the advisory from):


Problem: notifications from apps such as Calculator, Microsoft Store and
others are not announced by screen readers.


Background: in Windows 10 Version 1709 and later, if apps are written
correctly, they can send notification texts to be announced by screen
readers. A UIA client such as a screen reader must be able to catch this in
order to announce certain notifications, including Calculator's display
window, app update status in Microsoft Store, various notifications from
Edge, Alarms and Clock and other apps.


Steps to reproduce:


1. While using Windows 10 Version 1709 or later (including current
Insider Preview builds), launch an app such as Alarms and Clock (be sure it
is the latest version).
2. In case of Alarms and Clock, go to Stopwatch tab and start and stop
the stopwatch.
3. For Calculator, do some calculations.


Expected: screen reader announces messages such as "Stopwatch stopped" in
Alarms and Clock and "display is something" in Calculator.

Actual: only Narrator announces such texts.

Cause: other screen readers do not track UIA notification event. This is due
to the fact that Version 1709 introduces this event, which requires tracking
a newer UIA interface.


Known solutions/mitigations/workarounds and impact:


* Narrator: green light/okay; works out of the box (requires Version
1709 and later).
* JAWS for Windows: red light/major; no support (version 2018.1802.78
did not solve the Calculator display text problem, for instance).
* NonVisual Desktop Access: yellow light/solution being tested
(through an add-on update).


This advisory will be closed once major screen readers (in addition to the
three listed above) provides at least a basic solution.


Cheers,

Joseph