Topics

Sighted instructins, was Fly Outsn?


Rob
 

Brian Vogel <@britechguy> wrote:
I still think it's incumbent on those using assistive technology to learn what "the translations" are between how sighted instructions are written and what they actually need to do to emulate those instructions.
The problem comes when the instructions say things like: Click on the red/blue/purple striped icon to do this or that; and the icon in question has no text label associated with it.
Or the instructions will say something like: Drag the window to xx to access YY. I've seen this in office tutorials, for example; and in instructions for audio editing programs.
Another example is: Use your mouse to draw a window around this object. Often these types of actions have no shortcut key equivalents, and the assistive technology user is left scratching its head. So, often it isn't enough to understand the equivalent actions such as right/left/middle click. Sometimes, the instructions are just plain visual.


Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Rob,

I've had the same problem. Sometimes you can translate what instructions a
sighted person gives but I also have a problem when they say things like
"click on the red box". I'm not trying to be mean but I think just for one
day they need to close there eyes and work just with a screen reader so they
can see what we go through to do our tasks. It's kind of like when you call
for technical support and the person says something like "can you see the
blue screen to your right?". I too have seen this in office tutorials.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Rob
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 7:49 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Sighted instructins, was Fly Outsn?

Brian Vogel <@britechguy> wrote:
I still think it's incumbent on those using assistive technology to
learn what "the translations" are between how sighted instructions are
written and what they actually need to do to emulate those instructions.
The problem comes when the instructions say things like: Click on the
red/blue/purple striped icon to do this or that; and the icon in question
has no text label associated with it.
Or the instructions will say something like: Drag the window to xx to access
YY. I've seen this in office tutorials, for example; and in instructions for
audio editing programs.
Another example is: Use your mouse to draw a window around this object.
Often these types of actions have no shortcut key equivalents, and the
assistive technology user is left scratching its head. So, often it isn't
enough to understand the equivalent actions such as right/left/middle click.
Sometimes, the instructions are just plain visual.


 

We can all find instances of instructions that are completely unsuited to a blind or visually-impaired computer user and I understand the concerns there.  The fact is, though, for at least 90% plus of the kinds of questions I'm routinely seeing on these forums I can find the answer with a quick web search and the instructions presented are step-by-step of the open this dialog, click on this option, check the checkbox, hit OK type.   That's what I'm talking about.

I hope that people have noticed that I try my darndest to give "screen reader terminology focused" instructions when writing for this audience.  At the same time I will continue to make the point that for instructions that don't use an untranslatable visual component like, "Click on the purple icon," but instead say something like, "Click on the Adobe Reader icon," you really should be able to directly translate this to, "Find, select, and activate the Adobe Reader Icon."  Like so many things, what may be involved in "Find, select, and activate" can vary wildly depending on how a given user has his or her environment configured.

Also, just to semi-defend the sighted tech support person who asks, even after having been told you can't see, "Can you see the blue screen to your right?," it's very easy to literally forget what you've been told when you've been working with someone over the phone for a while and the entire "script" you're used to using has been working, and generally it will.   It's not any sort of malice and, very often, it comes about as a direct result of the proficiency of the individual asking for support such that the tech literally forgets during the course of the interaction that they're dealing with someone who can't see.

It makes perfect sense to remind someone, gently at first but with more force as they persist in giving instructions that you can't use after they've been told, that you can't see and that they need to adjust the instructions accordingly.   It's a real challenge at times, particularly for actions such as "drag and drop" that can be emulated via the keyboard but that most people, including screen reader users, have no idea how to do with the keyboard.  This happens to be one of those things that I constantly forget because it can most frequently be worked around but, on very rare occasions, it can't and I have to figure out how it's done with the screen reader commands again.

It should come as no surprise, though, that some materials written for the Graphical User Interface environment will presume that the audience is actually using the graphical user interface.  It's the same kind of "writing for your intended audience" that I think we all try to do as much as possible.

Brian
-- 

Never underestimate the difficulty of changing false beliefs by facts. 
   ~ Henry Rosovsky

    



Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Brian,

Yes, you do a great job in giving screen reader instructions. Yes, there were times when I had to use force when talking to a tech person on the phone. I started out gently with this person but when he kept insisting that I "click on the blue screen", that's when I got very irritated and hung up. When I took computer classes at our Orange County Braille Institute, one of the first things I learned was how to emulate mouse clicks using Jaws. I agree with you that people should be able to follow instructions like "click on adobe" or "tab to the checkbox and check it with the space bar".

Thank you for making this clear for us. I know you try to do your best and that's all that counts.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 9:23 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Sighted instructins, was Fly Outsn?

We can all find instances of instructions that are completely unsuited to a blind or visually-impaired computer user and I understand the concerns there. The fact is, though, for at least 90% plus of the kinds of questions I'm routinely seeing on these forums I can find the answer with a quick web search and the instructions presented are step-by-step of the open this dialog, click on this option, check the checkbox, hit OK type. That's what I'm talking about.

I hope that people have noticed that I try my darndest to give "screen reader terminology focused" instructions when writing for this audience. At the same time I will continue to make the point that for instructions that don't use an untranslatable visual component like, "Click on the purple icon," but instead say something like, "Click on the Adobe Reader icon," you really should be able to directly translate this to, "Find, select, and activate the Adobe Reader Icon." Like so many things, what may be involved in "Find, select, and activate" can vary wildly depending on how a given user has his or her environment configured.

Also, just to semi-defend the sighted tech support person who asks, even after having been told you can't see, "Can you see the blue screen to your right?," it's very easy to literally forget what you've been told when you've been working with someone over the phone for a while and the entire "script" you're used to using has been working, and generally it will. It's not any sort of malice and, very often, it comes about as a direct result of the proficiency of the individual asking for support such that the tech literally forgets during the course of the interaction that they're dealing with someone who can't see.

It makes perfect sense to remind someone, gently at first but with more force as they persist in giving instructions that you can't use after they've been told, that you can't see and that they need to adjust the instructions accordingly. It's a real challenge at times, particularly for actions such as "drag and drop" that can be emulated via the keyboard but that most people, including screen reader users, have no idea how to do with the keyboard. This happens to be one of those things that I constantly forget because it can most frequently be worked around but, on very rare occasions, it can't and I have to figure out how it's done with the screen reader commands again.

It should come as no surprise, though, that some materials written for the Graphical User Interface environment will presume that the audience is actually using the graphical user interface. It's the same kind of "writing for your intended audience" that I think we all try to do as much as possible.

Brian
--

Never underestimate the difficulty of changing false beliefs by facts.
~ Henry Rosovsky


Arianna Sepulveda
 

Brian, now you have me curious. When are drag-and-drop operations typically used? I'm planning on learning those commands for NVDA, but would like to know when sited people typically use them. Well, not the NVDA commands, ohbviously, but doing it with the mouse, so that I can perform their keyboard equivalents. I also have JAWS, and plan to learn the drag-and-drop keyboard equivalents for that screen reader, as well.


Thanks,
Ari

On May 16, 2016, at 9:22 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

We can all find instances of instructions that are completely unsuited to a blind or visually-impaired computer user and I understand the concerns there.  The fact is, though, for at least 90% plus of the kinds of questions I'm routinely seeing on these forums I can find the answer with a quick web search and the instructions presented are step-by-step of the open this dialog, click on this option, check the checkbox, hit OK type.   That's what I'm talking about.

I hope that people have noticed that I try my darndest to give "screen reader terminology focused" instructions when writing for this audience.  At the same time I will continue to make the point that for instructions that don't use an untranslatable visual component like, "Click on the purple icon," but instead say something like, "Click on the Adobe Reader icon," you really should be able to directly translate this to, "Find, select, and activate the Adobe Reader Icon."  Like so many things, what may be involved in "Find, select, and activate" can vary wildly depending on how a given user has his or her environment configured.

Also, just to semi-defend the sighted tech support person who asks, even after having been told you can't see, "Can you see the blue screen to your right?," it's very easy to literally forget what you've been told when you've been working with someone over the phone for a while and the entire "script" you're used to using has been working, and generally it will.   It's not any sort of malice and, very often, it comes about as a direct result of the proficiency of the individual asking for support such that the tech literally forgets during the course of the interaction that they're dealing with someone who can't see.

It makes perfect sense to remind someone, gently at first but with more force as they persist in giving instructions that you can't use after they've been told, that you can't see and that they need to adjust the instructions accordingly.   It's a real challenge at times, particularly for actions such as "drag and drop" that can be emulated via the keyboard but that most people, including screen reader users, have no idea how to do with the keyboard.  This happens to be one of those things that I constantly forget because it can most frequently be worked around but, on very rare occasions, it can't and I have to figure out how it's done with the screen reader commands again.

It should come as no surprise, though, that some materials written for the Graphical User Interface environment will presume that the audience is actually using the graphical user interface.  It's the same kind of "writing for your intended audience" that I think we all try to do as much as possible.

Brian
-- 

Never underestimate the difficulty of changing false beliefs by facts. 
   ~ Henry Rosovsky

    



Gene
 

Technically, I'm not sure why, but drag and drop are difficult for blind people to work with.  I have had to use drag and drop very rarely but fortunately, there are usually other ways to accomplish     tasks and, I have seldom seen programs that require its use.  I have seen some web sites where something you want to do can't be done without drag and drop.  It appears to me that you can't do drag and drop while in browse mode or the equivalent for JAWS, the Virtual PC cursor.  You might be able to do it when browse mode is off but that would depend on various factors and I wouldn't count on it on a lot of pages. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 4:16 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Sighted instructins, was Fly Outsn?

Brian, now you have me curious. When are drag-and-drop operations typically used? I'm planning on learning those commands for NVDA, but would like to know when sited people typically use them. Well, not the NVDA commands, ohbviously, but doing it with the mouse, so that I can perform their keyboard equivalents. I also have JAWS, and plan to learn the drag-and-drop keyboard equivalents for that screen reader, as well.


Thanks,
Ari

On May 16, 2016, at 9:22 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

We can all find instances of instructions that are completely unsuited to a blind or visually-impaired computer user and I understand the concerns there.  The fact is, though, for at least 90% plus of the kinds of questions I'm routinely seeing on these forums I can find the answer with a quick web search and the instructions presented are step-by-step of the open this dialog, click on this option, check the checkbox, hit OK type.   That's what I'm talking about.

I hope that people have noticed that I try my darndest to give "screen reader terminology focused" instructions when writing for this audience.  At the same time I will continue to make the point that for instructions that don't use an untranslatable visual component like, "Click on the purple icon," but instead say something like, "Click on the Adobe Reader icon," you really should be able to directly translate this to, "Find, select, and activate the Adobe Reader Icon."  Like so many things, what may be involved in "Find, select, and activate" can vary wildly depending on how a given user has his or her environment configured.

Also, just to semi-defend the sighted tech support person who asks, even after having been told you can't see, "Can you see the blue screen to your right?," it's very easy to literally forget what you've been told when you've been working with someone over the phone for a while and the entire "script" you're used to using has been working, and generally it will.   It's not any sort of malice and, very often, it comes about as a direct result of the proficiency of the individual asking for support such that the tech literally forgets during the course of the interaction that they're dealing with someone who can't see.

It makes perfect sense to remind someone, gently at first but with more force as they persist in giving instructions that you can't use after they've been told, that you can't see and that they need to adjust the instructions accordingly.   It's a real challenge at times, particularly for actions such as "drag and drop" that can be emulated via the keyboard but that most people, including screen reader users, have no idea how to do with the keyboard.  This happens to be one of those things that I constantly forget because it can most frequently be worked around but, on very rare occasions, it can't and I have to figure out how it's done with the screen reader commands again.

It should come as no surprise, though, that some materials written for the Graphical User Interface environment will presume that the audience is actually using the graphical user interface.  It's the same kind of "writing for your intended audience" that I think we all try to do as much as possible.

Brian
-- 

Never underestimate the difficulty of changing false beliefs by facts. 
   ~ Henry Rosovsky

    



 

Arianna,

           Drag-and-drop is a very frequently used operation, in many contexts.  In file explorer or windows explorer (depending on which version of Windows you're using) moving files and folders from place to place is most commonly done by drag-and-drop, which makes a lot of sense intuitively because the visuals are as though you've picked up the selected items and are carrying them from location A to location B.  Of course, this is easily done by select, cut, and paste via the keyboard.

           In Microsoft Word, one can position things like tables, images, and the like by dragging them and dropping them where you'd like them.  Mind you, Word will often not put them precisely where you thought because it needs to flow text around it or the like, but text wrapping can be changed such that you get precisely what you want.

           There are websites where there are quizzes or tests that operate by drag-and-drop.  For instance, you have a list of terms on one side and definitions on the other.  Often you'll drag-and-drop an electronic line between the term and what you believe to be its definition, very much like the paper version of a test that works this way.

            The problem with drag-and-drop is that, in the vast majority of cases, is it's directly dependent on sight.  You need to be able to see source and destination, regardless of context, and to know when you've reached your destination visually to do the drop.  There are some situations where that may not be the case, but they're relatively few and far between, and I'm hard pressed at the moment to come up with a good example.  It will probably occur to me right after I hit "send" or I'll encounter one by happenstance later this evening.

            By the way, I seldom use drag and drop to move files anymore.  I far more commonly cut and paste.

Brian
-- 

Never underestimate the difficulty of changing false beliefs by facts. 
   ~ Henry Rosovsky

    



Michael
 

Arianna,

I am attaching a .doc file describing drag and drop in JAWS.  I wrote this aboutten years ago. I don’t claim this is the best way to drag and drop. Ten years ago, I think I was using Windows 2000 and Jaws 5.

A lot has changed since then. I hope this helps.

 

 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Arianna Sepulveda
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 4:16 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Sighted instructins, was Fly Outsn?

 

Brian, now you have me curious. When are drag-and-drop operations typically used? I'm planning on learning those commands for NVDA, but would like to know when sited people typically use them. Well, not the NVDA commands, ohbviously, but doing it with the mouse, so that I can perform their keyboard equivalents. I also have JAWS, and plan to learn the drag-and-drop keyboard equivalents for that screen reader, as well.

 

 

Thanks,

Ari


On May 16, 2016, at 9:22 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

We can all find instances of instructions that are completely unsuited to a blind or visually-impaired computer user and I understand the concerns there.  The fact is, though, for at least 90% plus of the kinds of questions I'm routinely seeing on these forums I can find the answer with a quick web search and the instructions presented are step-by-step of the open this dialog, click on this option, check the checkbox, hit OK type.   That's what I'm talking about.

I hope that people have noticed that I try my darndest to give "screen reader terminology focused" instructions when writing for this audience.  At the same time I will continue to make the point that for instructions that don't use an untranslatable visual component like, "Click on the purple icon," but instead say something like, "Click on the Adobe Reader icon," you really should be able to directly translate this to, "Find, select, and activate the Adobe Reader Icon."  Like so many things, what may be involved in "Find, select, and activate" can vary wildly depending on how a given user has his or her environment configured.

Also, just to semi-defend the sighted tech support person who asks, even after having been told you can't see, "Can you see the blue screen to your right?," it's very easy to literally forget what you've been told when you've been working with someone over the phone for a while and the entire "script" you're used to using has been working, and generally it will.   It's not any sort of malice and, very often, it comes about as a direct result of the proficiency of the individual asking for support such that the tech literally forgets during the course of the interaction that they're dealing with someone who can't see.

It makes perfect sense to remind someone, gently at first but with more force as they persist in giving instructions that you can't use after they've been told, that you can't see and that they need to adjust the instructions accordingly.   It's a real challenge at times, particularly for actions such as "drag and drop" that can be emulated via the keyboard but that most people, including screen reader users, have no idea how to do with the keyboard.  This happens to be one of those things that I constantly forget because it can most frequently be worked around but, on very rare occasions, it can't and I have to figure out how it's done with the screen reader commands again.

It should come as no surprise, though, that some materials written for the Graphical User Interface environment will presume that the audience is actually using the graphical user interface.  It's the same kind of "writing for your intended audience" that I think we all try to do as much as possible.

Brian
-- 

Never underestimate the difficulty of changing false beliefs by facts. 

   ~ Henry Rosovsky

    

 


Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Brian,

I use cut and paste a lot too--especially when I've put music files into my downloads folder. I think in order to use drag and drop, you have to lock the left mouse key on the numpad but I could be wrong. I only did it one time but that was years ago.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 3:16 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Sighted instructins, was Fly Outsn?

Arianna,

Drag-and-drop is a very frequently used operation, in many contexts. In file explorer or windows explorer (depending on which version of Windows you're using) moving files and folders from place to place is most commonly done by drag-and-drop, which makes a lot of sense intuitively because the visuals are as though you've picked up the selected items and are carrying them from location A to location B. Of course, this is easily done by select, cut, and paste via the keyboard.

In Microsoft Word, one can position things like tables, images, and the like by dragging them and dropping them where you'd like them. Mind you, Word will often not put them precisely where you thought because it needs to flow text around it or the like, but text wrapping can be changed such that you get precisely what you want.

There are websites where there are quizzes or tests that operate by drag-and-drop. For instance, you have a list of terms on one side and definitions on the other. Often you'll drag-and-drop an electronic line between the term and what you believe to be its definition, very much like the paper version of a test that works this way.

The problem with drag-and-drop is that, in the vast majority of cases, is it's directly dependent on sight. You need to be able to see source and destination, regardless of context, and to know when you've reached your destination visually to do the drop. There are some situations where that may not be the case, but they're relatively few and far between, and I'm hard pressed at the moment to come up with a good example. It will probably occur to me right after I hit "send" or I'll encounter one by happenstance later this evening.

By the way, I seldom use drag and drop to move files anymore. I far more commonly cut and paste.

Brian
--

Never underestimate the difficulty of changing false beliefs by facts.
~ Henry Rosovsky


Brian's Mail list account BY <bglists@...>
 

No actually, increasingly the search throws up a video of how to do it often with nothing but video and no commentary.
It seems to me that soon you will need to start providing audio translations of these videos. I went to a site the other day which was all pictures with words like In order to explain this, see the step by step screenshots below... As you can see this or that, and blahblah. I know pictures speak louder than words, but not to the blind as in this case the pictures were helpfully tagged as stage 1 through 6.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <@britechguy>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 5:22 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Sighted instructins, was Fly Outsn?


We can all find instances of instructions that are completely unsuited to a blind or visually-impaired computer user and I understand the concerns there. The fact is, though, for at least 90% plus of the kinds of questions I'm routinely seeing on these forums I can find the answer with a quick web search and the instructions presented are step-by-step of the open this dialog, click on this option, check the checkbox, hit OK type. That's what I'm talking about.

I hope that people have noticed that I try my darndest to give "screen reader terminology focused" instructions when writing for this audience. At the same time I will continue to make the point that for instructions that don't use an untranslatable visual component like, "Click on the purple icon," but instead say something like, "Click on the Adobe Reader icon," you really should be able to directly translate this to, "Find, select, and activate the Adobe Reader Icon." Like so many things, what may be involved in "Find, select, and activate" can vary wildly depending on how a given user has his or her environment configured.

Also, just to semi-defend the sighted tech support person who asks, even after having been told you can't see, "Can you see the blue screen to your right?," it's very easy to literally forget what you've been told when you've been working with someone over the phone for a while and the entire "script" you're used to using has been working, and generally it will. It's not any sort of malice and, very often, it comes about as a direct result of the proficiency of the individual asking for support such that the tech literally forgets during the course of the interaction that they're dealing with someone who can't see.

It makes perfect sense to remind someone, gently at first but with more force as they persist in giving instructions that you can't use after they've been told, that you can't see and that they need to adjust the instructions accordingly. It's a real challenge at times, particularly for actions such as "drag and drop" that can be emulated via the keyboard but that most people, including screen reader users, have no idea how to do with the keyboard. This happens to be one of those things that I constantly forget because it can most frequently be worked around but, on very rare occasions, it can't and I have to figure out how it's done with the screen reader commands again.

It should come as no surprise, though, that some materials written for the Graphical User Interface environment will presume that the audience is actually using the graphical user interface. It's the same kind of "writing for your intended audience" that I think we all try to do as much as possible.
Brian
--
Never underestimate the difficulty of changing false beliefs by facts.
~ Henry Rosovsky


Brian's Mail list account BY <bglists@...>
 

I have a true call device and its files are stored on an sd card. A lot of the ways to operate this software do not seem to have keyboard shortcuts, and drag and drop is used here to do what in explorer we would simply use copy for. Quite why software companies feel the need toreinvent the wheel has always eluded me.


Another program from the past that had touse drag and drop was a version of Nero, but I stopped using it when I found some much more intuitive burners.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 10:35 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Sighted instructins, was Fly Outsn?


Technically, I'm not sure why, but drag and drop are difficult for blind people to work with. I have had to use drag and drop very rarely but fortunately, there are usually other ways to accomplish tasks and, I have seldom seen programs that require its use. I have seen some web sites where something you want to do can't be done without drag and drop. It appears to me that you can't do drag and drop while in browse mode or the equivalent for JAWS, the Virtual PC cursor. You might be able to do it when browse mode is off but that would depend on various factors and I wouldn't count on it on a lot of pages.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Arianna Sepulveda
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 4:16 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Sighted instructins, was Fly Outsn?


Brian, now you have me curious. When are drag-and-drop operations typically used? I'm planning on learning those commands for NVDA, but would like to know when sited people typically use them. Well, not the NVDA commands, ohbviously, but doing it with the mouse, so that I can perform their keyboard equivalents. I also have JAWS, and plan to learn the drag-and-drop keyboard equivalents for that screen reader, as well.




Thanks,
Ari

On May 16, 2016, at 9:22 AM, Brian Vogel <@britechguy> wrote:


We can all find instances of instructions that are completely unsuited to a blind or visually-impaired computer user and I understand the concerns there. The fact is, though, for at least 90% plus of the kinds of questions I'm routinely seeing on these forums I can find the answer with a quick web search and the instructions presented are step-by-step of the open this dialog, click on this option, check the checkbox, hit OK type. That's what I'm talking about.

I hope that people have noticed that I try my darndest to give "screen reader terminology focused" instructions when writing for this audience. At the same time I will continue to make the point that for instructions that don't use an untranslatable visual component like, "Click on the purple icon," but instead say something like, "Click on the Adobe Reader icon," you really should be able to directly translate this to, "Find, select, and activate the Adobe Reader Icon." Like so many things, what may be involved in "Find, select, and activate" can vary wildly depending on how a given user has his or her environment configured.

Also, just to semi-defend the sighted tech support person who asks, even after having been told you can't see, "Can you see the blue screen to your right?," it's very easy to literally forget what you've been told when you've been working with someone over the phone for a while and the entire "script" you're used to using has been working, and generally it will. It's not any sort of malice and, very often, it comes about as a direct result of the proficiency of the individual asking for support such that the tech literally forgets during the course of the interaction that they're dealing with someone who can't see.

It makes perfect sense to remind someone, gently at first but with more force as they persist in giving instructions that you can't use after they've been told, that you can't see and that they need to adjust the instructions accordingly. It's a real challenge at times, particularly for actions such as "drag and drop" that can be emulated via the keyboard but that most people, including screen reader users, have no idea how to do with the keyboard. This happens to be one of those things that I constantly forget because it can most frequently be worked around but, on very rare occasions, it can't and I have to figure out how it's done with the screen reader commands again.

It should come as no surprise, though, that some materials written for the Graphical User Interface environment will presume that the audience is actually using the graphical user interface. It's the same kind of "writing for your intended audience" that I think we all try to do as much as possible.

Brian
--


Never underestimate the difficulty of changing false beliefs by facts.
~ Henry Rosovsky


 

Well for a while I used nero 5 that came with an old cd drive.
Then I used nero 6 but didn't like the locked express version so cracked that.
For a while I didn't upgrade, however after I got goldwave for cd extraction and cd burner xp for dvd/blueray/audio cd and data cd creation it solved my issues fully.

On 17/05/2016 7:54 p.m., Brian's Mail list account wrote:
I have a true call device and its files are stored on an sd card. A lot
of the ways to operate this software do not seem to have keyboard
shortcuts, and drag and drop is used here to do what in explorer we
would simply use copy for. Quite why software companies feel the need
toreinvent the wheel has always eluded me.


Another program from the past that had touse drag and drop was a version
of Nero, but I stopped using it when I found some much more intuitive
burners.
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 10:35 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Sighted instructins, was Fly Outsn?


Technically, I'm not sure why, but drag and drop are difficult for blind
people to work with. I have had to use drag and drop very rarely but
fortunately, there are usually other ways to accomplish tasks and, I
have seldom seen programs that require its use. I have seen some web
sites where something you want to do can't be done without drag and
drop. It appears to me that you can't do drag and drop while in browse
mode or the equivalent for JAWS, the Virtual PC cursor. You might be
able to do it when browse mode is off but that would depend on various
factors and I wouldn't count on it on a lot of pages.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Arianna Sepulveda
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 4:16 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Sighted instructins, was Fly Outsn?


Brian, now you have me curious. When are drag-and-drop operations
typically used? I'm planning on learning those commands for NVDA, but
would like to know when sited people typically use them. Well, not the
NVDA commands, ohbviously, but doing it with the mouse, so that I can
perform their keyboard equivalents. I also have JAWS, and plan to learn
the drag-and-drop keyboard equivalents for that screen reader, as well.




Thanks,
Ari

On May 16, 2016, at 9:22 AM, Brian Vogel <@britechguy> wrote:


We can all find instances of instructions that are completely unsuited
to a blind or visually-impaired computer user and I understand the
concerns there. The fact is, though, for at least 90% plus of the kinds
of questions I'm routinely seeing on these forums I can find the answer
with a quick web search and the instructions presented are step-by-step
of the open this dialog, click on this option, check the checkbox, hit
OK type. That's what I'm talking about.

I hope that people have noticed that I try my darndest to give "screen
reader terminology focused" instructions when writing for this
audience. At the same time I will continue to make the point that for
instructions that don't use an untranslatable visual component like,
"Click on the purple icon," but instead say something like, "Click on
the Adobe Reader icon," you really should be able to directly translate
this to, "Find, select, and activate the Adobe Reader Icon." Like so
many things, what may be involved in "Find, select, and activate" can
vary wildly depending on how a given user has his or her environment
configured.

Also, just to semi-defend the sighted tech support person who asks,
even after having been told you can't see, "Can you see the blue screen
to your right?," it's very easy to literally forget what you've been
told when you've been working with someone over the phone for a while
and the entire "script" you're used to using has been working, and
generally it will. It's not any sort of malice and, very often, it comes
about as a direct result of the proficiency of the individual asking for
support such that the tech literally forgets during the course of the
interaction that they're dealing with someone who can't see.

It makes perfect sense to remind someone, gently at first but with more
force as they persist in giving instructions that you can't use after
they've been told, that you can't see and that they need to adjust the
instructions accordingly. It's a real challenge at times, particularly
for actions such as "drag and drop" that can be emulated via the
keyboard but that most people, including screen reader users, have no
idea how to do with the keyboard. This happens to be one of those
things that I constantly forget because it can most frequently be worked
around but, on very rare occasions, it can't and I have to figure out
how it's done with the screen reader commands again.

It should come as no surprise, though, that some materials written for
the Graphical User Interface environment will presume that the audience
is actually using the graphical user interface. It's the same kind of
"writing for your intended audience" that I think we all try to do as
much as possible.

Brian
--

Never underestimate the difficulty of changing false beliefs by facts.
~ Henry Rosovsky











Patrick Le Baudour
 

It can be used for gui designing, to open files in some applications (I don't remeber why, but I have had to use that in the past) - that would just require to put it in the correct window -, sometimes to add in a zip file, or to execute a program with a file parameter that is in the same opened folder, or to do individual item sorting in explorer or another application...
Most things can be done other ways, drag and drop was quite convenient in some cases, though.


-- Patrick

Le 17/05/2016 à 00:15, Brian Vogel a écrit :
Arianna,

Drag-and-drop is a very frequently used operation, in many
contexts. In file explorer or windows explorer (depending on which
version of Windows you're using) moving files and folders from place to
place is most commonly done by drag-and-drop, which makes a lot of sense
intuitively because the visuals are as though you've picked up the
selected items and are carrying them from location A to location B. Of
course, this is easily done by select, cut, and paste via the keyboard.

In Microsoft Word, one can position things like tables,
images, and the like by dragging them and dropping them where you'd like
them. Mind you, Word will often not put them precisely where you
thought because it needs to flow text around it or the like, but text
wrapping can be changed such that you get precisely what you want.

There are websites where there are quizzes or tests that
operate by drag-and-drop. For instance, you have a list of terms on one
side and definitions on the other. Often you'll drag-and-drop an
electronic line between the term and what you believe to be its
definition, very much like the paper version of a test that works this way.

The problem with drag-and-drop is that, in the vast majority
of cases, is it's directly dependent on sight. You need to be able to
see source and destination, regardless of context, and to know when
you've reached your destination visually to do the drop. There are some
situations where that may not be the case, but they're relatively few
and far between, and I'm hard pressed at the moment to come up with a
good example. It will probably occur to me right after I hit "send" or
I'll encounter one by happenstance later this evening.

By the way, I seldom use drag and drop to move files
anymore. I far more commonly cut and paste.

*/Brian/*
--

*Never underestimate the difficulty of changing false beliefs by facts. *
* */ ~ Henry Rosovsky/