Excerpt from Espeak NG list


Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Now I'm not getting at anyone here, but although the message below is related to a very new incarnation of the synth, it kind of makes the point made in a previous thread on here about the changes being made to Espeak which do not sit well with users.
Here is the post...
I have no axe to grind here, except that it has been my experience too that some pronunciations are dismissed as OK when they are not.

[espeak-ng:master] New Issue Created by Trix-Maiden:
#443 Velarisation in Espeak NG is too pronounced
I've brought this up before as well, but I want to do so again here, in less abrasive language.
The current way Espeak ng processes velarisation puts too much emphasis on it. Any word ending with an "N" that precedes one starting with a hard "g" or "c" sounds as if there is an extra "g" at the end of it before the next word begins. "Ing case", "wung game" "cang get", etc.
The last time I brought up this issue, I was told this is how these words sound when spoken by humans, but I would disagree. Not to say this doesn't happen, but it isn't lingered over the way it is in the current release of Espeak ng. In previous versions, the transitions between these words sounded natural enough to my ears, and this version over-emphasises the velarisation to the point of it being unnatural.
(Note: I do not type "one" like that, but I had to alter spellings to simulate the pronunciation issue as clearly as possible to another blind person.)
_._,_._,_
====

Things I've moaned about like offen instead of often keep coming back as well, now this person knows the right term to use for the issue they are raising but mnay of us would not know how to actually describe it, and I feel that is part of the issue when reporting oddities and getting ehem fixed.
Just saying, and I do hope somebody who understands such things can pass on some of the comments I've seen on here to the right people to get them put back as they were originally. Thanks and have a nice day to all.
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.


Reece H. Dunn
 

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 12:57 am, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
Now I'm not getting at anyone here, but although the message below is
related to a very new incarnation of the synth, it kind of makes the point
made in a previous thread on here about the changes being made to Espeak
which do not sit well with users.
It would help to read the follow up where I have modified it so it no longer does that between words. Both pronunciation styles are equally valid and I prefer the change I made, but I respect that the change was not well supported (or at least not by the vocal majority).

Everything you and others have raised I have fixed or tried to fix, yet you still complain in an unconstructive way (like your post to the NVDA developers list). Pointing out issues is fine. Being constructively critical is fine (like Tyler Spivey's comments in another thread).

Also bear in mind that I and others are doing this in our spare time for free.

Here is the post...
I have no axe to grind here, except that it has been my experience too that
some pronunciations are dismissed as OK when they are not.

[espeak-ng:master] New Issue Created by Trix-Maiden:
#443 Velarisation in Espeak NG is too pronounced
I've brought this up before as well, but I want to do so again here, in less
abrasive language.
The current way Espeak ng processes velarisation puts too much emphasis on
it. Any word ending with an "N" that precedes one starting with a hard "g"
or "c" sounds as if there is an extra "g" at the end of it before the next
word begins. "Ing case", "wung game" "cang get", etc.
The last time I brought up this issue, I was told this is how these words
sound when spoken by humans, but I would disagree. Not to say this doesn't
happen, but it isn't lingered over the way it is in the current release of
Espeak ng. In previous versions, the transitions between these words sounded
natural enough to my ears, and this version over-emphasises the velarisation
to the point of it being unnatural.
(Note: I do not type "one" like that, but I had to alter spellings to
simulate the pronunciation issue as clearly as possible to another blind
person.)
_._,_._,_
====

Things I've moaned about like offen instead of often keep coming back as
well, now this person knows the right term to use for the issue they are
raising but mnay of us would not know how to actually describe it, and I
feel that is part of the issue when reporting oddities and getting ehem
fixed.
Just saying, and I do hope somebody who understands such things can pass on
some of the comments I've seen on here to the right people to get them put
back as they were originally. Thanks and have a nice day to all.
Brian
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.


Gene
 

This is not done in English.  I've never heard anything even remotely like what is being stated as being in spoken, rather than written English. 
 
If the claim is being made as reported in the below message, it is not partly or marginally incorrect, it is completely incorrect.  In two words like can get, the n is held and the g is smoothly spoken at the instant the n sound is ended.  There is no additional g nor even a hint of one.  And that's the way things are generally. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 2:57 AM
Subject: [nvda] Excerpt from Espeak NG list

Now I'm not getting at anyone here, but although the message below is
related to a very new incarnation of the synth, it kind of makes the point
made in a previous thread on here about the changes being made to Espeak
which do not sit well with users.
 Here is the post...
 I have no axe to grind here, except that it has been my experience too that
some pronunciations are dismissed as OK when they are not.

[espeak-ng:master] New Issue Created by Trix-Maiden:
#443 Velarisation in Espeak NG is too pronounced
I've brought this up before as well, but I want to do so again here, in less
abrasive language.
The current way Espeak ng processes velarisation puts too much emphasis on
it. Any word ending with an "N" that precedes one starting with a hard "g"
or "c" sounds as if there is an extra "g" at the end of it before the next
word begins. "Ing case", "wung game" "cang get", etc.
The last time I brought up this issue, I was told this is how these words
sound when spoken by humans, but I would disagree. Not to say this doesn't
happen, but it isn't lingered over the way it is in the current release of
Espeak ng. In previous versions, the transitions between these words sounded
natural enough to my ears, and this version over-emphasises the velarisation
to the point of it being unnatural.
(Note: I do not type "one" like that, but I had to alter spellings to
simulate the pronunciation issue as clearly as possible to another blind
person.)
_._,_._,_
 ====

Things I've moaned about like offen instead of often keep coming back as
well, now this  person knows the right term to use for the issue they are
raising but mnay of us would not know how to actually describe it, and I
feel that is part of the issue when reporting oddities and getting ehem
fixed.
 Just saying, and I do hope somebody who understands such things can pass on
some of the comments I've seen on here to the right people to get them put
back as they were originally. Thanks and have a nice day to all.
 Brian
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.




Gene
 

Equally valid in what dialect?  I've never heard it in any american or Brittish dialect I've heard.  On what basis do the people making such decisions base their beliefs?  Are they just from listening or does anyone working on pronunciation have a real background in the subject?  I realize this is a voluntary oepn source project but if this hasn't been done, shouldn't there be an attempt to recruit someone with a reasonable background in whatever the science is called that we are dealing with, perhaps a linguist or dialectician?  I'm not sure what the speciality should be called.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 3:26 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Excerpt from Espeak NG list

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 12:57 am, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
Now I'm not getting at anyone here, but although the message below is
related to a very new incarnation of the synth, it kind of makes the point
made in a previous thread on here about the changes being made to Espeak
which do not sit well with users.
It would help to read the follow up where I have modified it so it no longer does that between words. Both pronunciation styles are equally valid and I prefer the change I made, but I respect that the change was not well supported (or at least not by the vocal majority).

Everything you and others have raised I have fixed or tried to fix, yet you still complain in an unconstructive way (like your post to the NVDA developers list). Pointing out issues is fine. Being constructively critical is fine (like Tyler Spivey's comments in another thread).

Also bear in mind that I and others are doing this in our spare time for free.

Here is the post...
I have no axe to grind here, except that it has been my experience too that
some pronunciations are dismissed as OK when they are not.

[espeak-ng:master] New Issue Created by Trix-Maiden:
#443 Velarisation in Espeak NG is too pronounced
I've brought this up before as well, but I want to do so again here, in less
abrasive language.
The current way Espeak ng processes velarisation puts too much emphasis on
it. Any word ending with an "N" that precedes one starting with a hard "g"
or "c" sounds as if there is an extra "g" at the end of it before the next
word begins. "Ing case", "wung game" "cang get", etc.
The last time I brought up this issue, I was told this is how these words
sound when spoken by humans, but I would disagree. Not to say this doesn't
happen, but it isn't lingered over the way it is in the current release of
Espeak ng. In previous versions, the transitions between these words sounded
natural enough to my ears, and this version over-emphasises the velarisation
to the point of it being unnatural.
(Note: I do not type "one" like that, but I had to alter spellings to
simulate the pronunciation issue as clearly as possible to another blind
person.)


Reece H. Dunn
 

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 01:29 am, Gene wrote:
This is not done in English.  I've never heard anything even remotely like what is being stated as being in spoken, rather than written English. 
 
If the claim is being made as reported in the below message, it is not partly or marginally incorrect, it is completely incorrect.  In two words like can get, the n is held and the g is smoothly spoken at the instant the n sound is ended.  There is no additional g nor even a hint of one.  And that's the way things are generally. 
It is not an additional "g", it is the "n" sound before a "k" or "g" in words like "sing", "king", and "sink". Within words, this process happens naturally. Across words, that process may happen (especially when the words are spoken quickly, or with little pause between them).

Specifically, the "k" and "g" sounds are made by moving the back of your tongue to the back of your mouth (the velum). An "n" sound is made by touching the front of your tongue to the front of your mouth, but before a "k" or "g" sound (especially when done quickly), your tongue moves to the back of your mouth in preparation of making the "k" or "g" sound, so that "n" has a different sound to things like "no", or "none".

This is a process called velarization.

 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 2:57 AM
Subject: [nvda] Excerpt from Espeak NG list
 
Now I'm not getting at anyone here, but although the message below is
related to a very new incarnation of the synth, it kind of makes the point
made in a previous thread on here about the changes being made to Espeak
which do not sit well with users.
 Here is the post...
 I have no axe to grind here, except that it has been my experience too that
some pronunciations are dismissed as OK when they are not.

[espeak-ng:master] New Issue Created by Trix-Maiden:
#443 Velarisation in Espeak NG is too pronounced
I've brought this up before as well, but I want to do so again here, in less
abrasive language.
The current way Espeak ng processes velarisation puts too much emphasis on
it. Any word ending with an "N" that precedes one starting with a hard "g"
or "c" sounds as if there is an extra "g" at the end of it before the next
word begins. "Ing case", "wung game" "cang get", etc.
The last time I brought up this issue, I was told this is how these words
sound when spoken by humans, but I would disagree. Not to say this doesn't
happen, but it isn't lingered over the way it is in the current release of
Espeak ng. In previous versions, the transitions between these words sounded
natural enough to my ears, and this version over-emphasises the velarisation
to the point of it being unnatural.
(Note: I do not type "one" like that, but I had to alter spellings to
simulate the pronunciation issue as clearly as possible to another blind
person.)
_._,_._,_
 ====

Things I've moaned about like offen instead of often keep coming back as
well, now this  person knows the right term to use for the issue they are
raising but mnay of us would not know how to actually describe it, and I
feel that is part of the issue when reporting oddities and getting ehem
fixed.
 Just saying, and I do hope somebody who understands such things can pass on
some of the comments I've seen on here to the right people to get them put
back as they were originally. Thanks and have a nice day to all.
 Brian
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.



Gene
 

Thanks for your explanation.  But it doesn't address the complaint.
 
The complaint said that there is an additional g sound where two words such as ing case are spoken.  As to the n sounding different in a word like sing, I agree.
 
I don't have a way to try the latest NVDA to hear the speech so I don't know if this problem has been completely eliminated.  I understand there is a SAPI 5 version.  Does that version contain the latest code?
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 3:51 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Excerpt from Espeak NG list

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 01:29 am, Gene wrote:
This is not done in English.  I've never heard anything even remotely like what is being stated as being in spoken, rather than written English. 
 
If the claim is being made as reported in the below message, it is not partly or marginally incorrect, it is completely incorrect.  In two words like can get, the n is held and the g is smoothly spoken at the instant the n sound is ended.  There is no additional g nor even a hint of one.  And that's the way things are generally. 
It is not an additional "g", it is the "n" sound before a "k" or "g" in words like "sing", "king", and "sink". Within words, this process happens naturally. Across words, that process may happen (especially when the words are spoken quickly, or with little pause between them).

Specifically, the "k" and "g" sounds are made by moving the back of your tongue to the back of your mouth (the velum). An "n" sound is made by touching the front of your tongue to the front of your mouth, but before a "k" or "g" sound (especially when done quickly), your tongue moves to the back of your mouth in preparation of making the "k" or "g" sound, so that "n" has a different sound to things like "no", or "none".

This is a process called velarization.

 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 2:57 AM
Subject: [nvda] Excerpt from Espeak NG list
 
Now I'm not getting at anyone here, but although the message below is
related to a very new incarnation of the synth, it kind of makes the point
made in a previous thread on here about the changes being made to Espeak
which do not sit well with users.
 Here is the post...
 I have no axe to grind here, except that it has been my experience too that
some pronunciations are dismissed as OK when they are not.

[espeak-ng:master] New Issue Created by Trix-Maiden:
#443 Velarisation in Espeak NG is too pronounced
I've brought this up before as well, but I want to do so again here, in less
abrasive language.
The current way Espeak ng processes velarisation puts too much emphasis on
it. Any word ending with an "N" that precedes one starting with a hard "g"
or "c" sounds as if there is an extra "g" at the end of it before the next
word begins. "Ing case", "wung game" "cang get", etc.
The last time I brought up this issue, I was told this is how these words
sound when spoken by humans, but I would disagree. Not to say this doesn't
happen, but it isn't lingered over the way it is in the current release of
Espeak ng. In previous versions, the transitions between these words sounded
natural enough to my ears, and this version over-emphasises the velarisation
to the point of it being unnatural.
(Note: I do not type "one" like that, but I had to alter spellings to
simulate the pronunciation issue as clearly as possible to another blind
person.)


Reece H. Dunn
 

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 05:40 am, Gene wrote:
Thanks for your explanation.  But it doesn't address the complaint.
 
The complaint said that there is an additional g sound where two words such as ing case are spoken.  As to the n sounding different in a word like sing, I agree.
The issue referenced in this discussion talked about there being too much emphasis on the "n", "as if there is an extra "g" at the end of it before the next word begins. The only change made in that regard is the one I talked about -- espeak-ng is not/was not inserting an extra g sound in that case. Compare "singer" (no "g") and "linger" (with a "g") for an example of eSpeak and eSpeak NG pronouncing the "g" sound.

With the -ing ending, some accents (e.g. London/cockney) say it as "in" (e.g. somethin'), other accents. In https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_FtnOTLkSs&t=137, the female speaker uses the velarised n without a g, and the male (cokney) speaker uses a regular n sound. When the -ing not the final part of the word such as with an -er ending like in stronger and linger, some accents pronounce the g while others do not. In https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvLfIMepxJ8 the g is pronounced in the word linger. For the word "singer", in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJaEpvEcrsA, the first American speaker, and both British and Scottish speakers pronounces the "g", while the second American speaker and the Irish speakers do not.

I don't have a way to try the latest NVDA to hear the speech so I don't know if this problem has been completely eliminated.  I understand there is a SAPI 5 version.  Does that version contain the latest code?
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 3:51 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Excerpt from Espeak NG list
 
On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 01:29 am, Gene wrote:
This is not done in English.  I've never heard anything even remotely like what is being stated as being in spoken, rather than written English. 
 
If the claim is being made as reported in the below message, it is not partly or marginally incorrect, it is completely incorrect.  In two words like can get, the n is held and the g is smoothly spoken at the instant the n sound is ended.  There is no additional g nor even a hint of one.  And that's the way things are generally. 
It is not an additional "g", it is the "n" sound before a "k" or "g" in words like "sing", "king", and "sink". Within words, this process happens naturally. Across words, that process may happen (especially when the words are spoken quickly, or with little pause between them).

Specifically, the "k" and "g" sounds are made by moving the back of your tongue to the back of your mouth (the velum). An "n" sound is made by touching the front of your tongue to the front of your mouth, but before a "k" or "g" sound (especially when done quickly), your tongue moves to the back of your mouth in preparation of making the "k" or "g" sound, so that "n" has a different sound to things like "no", or "none".

This is a process called velarization.

 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 2:57 AM
Subject: [nvda] Excerpt from Espeak NG list
 
Now I'm not getting at anyone here, but although the message below is
related to a very new incarnation of the synth, it kind of makes the point
made in a previous thread on here about the changes being made to Espeak
which do not sit well with users.
 Here is the post...
 I have no axe to grind here, except that it has been my experience too that
some pronunciations are dismissed as OK when they are not.

[espeak-ng:master] New Issue Created by Trix-Maiden:
#443 Velarisation in Espeak NG is too pronounced
I've brought this up before as well, but I want to do so again here, in less
abrasive language.
The current way Espeak ng processes velarisation puts too much emphasis on
it. Any word ending with an "N" that precedes one starting with a hard "g"
or "c" sounds as if there is an extra "g" at the end of it before the next
word begins. "Ing case", "wung game" "cang get", etc.
The last time I brought up this issue, I was told this is how these words
sound when spoken by humans, but I would disagree. Not to say this doesn't
happen, but it isn't lingered over the way it is in the current release of
Espeak ng. In previous versions, the transitions between these words sounded
natural enough to my ears, and this version over-emphasises the velarisation
to the point of it being unnatural.
(Note: I do not type "one" like that, but I had to alter spellings to
simulate the pronunciation issue as clearly as possible to another blind
person.)


Sharni-Lee Ward
 

I would like to preface with the fact that I am also Trix Maiden. These submissions were made to the Git Hub for Espeak NG and that's my username over there.


I am glad that change has been reversed, as I have never heard this kind of thing in spoken English except in words where it's appropriate, such as the ones you gave as examples. You must admit, however, that when you hear the phrase "done quickly", and the "done" sounds like "dung", a blind person using a screen-reader to provide them with accurate rendering of what they are reading is going to raise an eyebrow. :)


On 31/03/2018 12:42 AM, Reece H. Dunn wrote:
On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 05:40 am, Gene wrote:
Thanks for your explanation.  But it doesn't address the complaint.
 
The complaint said that there is an additional g sound where two words such as ing case are spoken.  As to the n sounding different in a word like sing, I agree.
The issue referenced in this discussion talked about there being too much emphasis on the "n", "as if there is an extra "g" at the end of it before the next word begins. The only change made in that regard is the one I talked about -- espeak-ng is not/was not inserting an extra g sound in that case. Compare "singer" (no "g") and "linger" (with a "g") for an example of eSpeak and eSpeak NG pronouncing the "g" sound.

With the -ing ending, some accents (e.g. London/cockney) say it as "in" (e.g. somethin'), other accents. In https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_FtnOTLkSs&t=137, the female speaker uses the velarised n without a g, and the male (cokney) speaker uses a regular n sound. When the -ing not the final part of the word such as with an -er ending like in stronger and linger, some accents pronounce the g while others do not. In https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvLfIMepxJ8 the g is pronounced in the word linger. For the word "singer", in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJaEpvEcrsA, the first American speaker, and both British and Scottish speakers pronounces the "g", while the second American speaker and the Irish speakers do not.

I don't have a way to try the latest NVDA to hear the speech so I don't know if this problem has been completely eliminated.  I understand there is a SAPI 5 version.  Does that version contain the latest code?
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 3:51 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Excerpt from Espeak NG list
 
On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 01:29 am, Gene wrote:
This is not done in English.  I've never heard anything even remotely like what is being stated as being in spoken, rather than written English. 
 
If the claim is being made as reported in the below message, it is not partly or marginally incorrect, it is completely incorrect.  In two words like can get, the n is held and the g is smoothly spoken at the instant the n sound is ended.  There is no additional g nor even a hint of one.  And that's the way things are generally. 
It is not an additional "g", it is the "n" sound before a "k" or "g" in words like "sing", "king", and "sink". Within words, this process happens naturally. Across words, that process may happen (especially when the words are spoken quickly, or with little pause between them).

Specifically, the "k" and "g" sounds are made by moving the back of your tongue to the back of your mouth (the velum). An "n" sound is made by touching the front of your tongue to the front of your mouth, but before a "k" or "g" sound (especially when done quickly), your tongue moves to the back of your mouth in preparation of making the "k" or "g" sound, so that "n" has a different sound to things like "no", or "none".

This is a process called velarization.

 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 2:57 AM
Subject: [nvda] Excerpt from Espeak NG list
 
Now I'm not getting at anyone here, but although the message below is
related to a very new incarnation of the synth, it kind of makes the point
made in a previous thread on here about the changes being made to Espeak
which do not sit well with users.
 Here is the post...
 I have no axe to grind here, except that it has been my experience too that
some pronunciations are dismissed as OK when they are not.

[espeak-ng:master] New Issue Created by Trix-Maiden:
#443 Velarisation in Espeak NG is too pronounced
I've brought this up before as well, but I want to do so again here, in less
abrasive language.
The current way Espeak ng processes velarisation puts too much emphasis on
it. Any word ending with an "N" that precedes one starting with a hard "g"
or "c" sounds as if there is an extra "g" at the end of it before the next
word begins. "Ing case", "wung game" "cang get", etc.
The last time I brought up this issue, I was told this is how these words
sound when spoken by humans, but I would disagree. Not to say this doesn't
happen, but it isn't lingered over the way it is in the current release of
Espeak ng. In previous versions, the transitions between these words sounded
natural enough to my ears, and this version over-emphasises the velarisation
to the point of it being unnatural.
(Note: I do not type "one" like that, but I had to alter spellings to
simulate the pronunciation issue as clearly as possible to another blind
person.)