Patreon accessibility


 

The below email thread is a long running one about lack of accessibility of the service. I know many who would like to use the service and who can't edit their pages or change prices or cancel pledges or even use the service. The app is actually worse than the website. I know many of you are not patreon creators, but this is how I, and many others, make money.


I am gonna call the below today. If anybody wants to send emails or make phone calls, to try to get someone, let me know. clearly, he likes ignoring emails.


Tal Raviv
Product Manager
phone: 561.789.1015

tal@...


On 4/3/2018 11:10 AM, Nicolas Steenhout wrote:
Hello again Tal,

I haven't heard from you for nearly a week on my latest email, and for nearly 3 weeks on my previous email.

I have included Robert Kingett on this email as he is a blind individual who is unable to use Patreon. He is interested in speaking to people at Patreon on improving accessibility.

Thank you

Nic

On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 1:04 PM, Nicolas Steenhout <nic@...> wrote:
Hello again,

Are you able to give me an update? It's now been 10 months since I first reached out to you about accessibility. I did not hear back from you about who I can speak within Patreon to get this moving.

I have people who want to become my patron, but are unable to use the site because of the accessibility issues. Your lack of movement is costing me money.

I also know artists and podcasters with disabilities who want to put their projects on Patreon, but who are unable to join because Patreon is not accessible.

It would be great if Patreon came to accessibility willingly rather than dragging their feet to it.

Thank you for a PROMPT response.

Nic

On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 4:35 PM, Nicolas Steenhout <nic@...> wrote:
Thank you.

I'm sorry, but "it's on our list and in our consciousness" isn't good
enough anymore. It's been well over 6 months that I initially
contacted Patreon about this issue.

To say "it's on our list", is basically paying lip service to
something that impacts a large minority. Promises without action are
empty.

Who can I speak to within Patreon that can provide more information
and act on it?

Thank you

Nic

On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 4:08 PM, Tal Raviv <tal@...> wrote:
> Nicolas, thanks for the ping. It's on our list and in our consciousness, and
> I can't externally provide dates.
>
> Tal Raviv
> Product Manager
> 561.789.1015
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 10:24 AM, Nicolas Steenhout <nic@...> wrote:
>>
>> Hello again Tal,
>>
>> I'm reviving this conversation because it's been nearly 6 months with
>> no movement on Patreon's part on this.
>>
>> What are you going to do to improve accessibility?
>> When are you going to do it?
>>
>> Nic
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 8:08 PM, Tal Raviv <tal@...> wrote:
>> > Yep, to be clear we're not creating an accessibility API.
>> >
>> > I appreciate the deep insights, and I agree we have major problems. That
>> > is
>> > an impressive list. I can think of additional bad situations that are
>> > also
>> > very embarrassing, from our own experiences internally.
>> >
>> > We need to fix this. Period. I can't share too much more about our
>> > difficult
>> > internal decisions, but I can tell you that this is something that
>> > everyone
>> > on the product team is aligned with and knows is important as Patreon
>> > grows
>> > to become a significant membership engine. We also know that
>> > accessibility
>> > is a scale we need to climb and do not want to treat as a checkbox and
>> > must
>> > be respected as an ongoing commitment.
>> >
>> > Let's stay in touch. When this comes near, we will need help.
>> >
>> > Tal
>> >
>> > Tal Raviv
>> > Product Manager, Growth and Platform
>> > 561.789.1015
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 11:49 AM, Nicolas Steenhout <nic@...> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hello again Tal,
>> >>
>> >> If you'll allow me to be candid - I think your approach of doing an
>> >> accessibility API is entirely the wrong approach. This is pretty much
>> >> akin
>> >> to relying on 3rd party vendors to offer accessibility. It's an
>> >> approach
>> >> that doesn't work. I know - I've been working in this field for over
>> >> two
>> >> decades and I've see it over and over.
>> >>
>> >> I'm not saying APIs are bad, but they should not be your first solution
>> >> for accessibility.
>> >>
>> >> There are several relatively simple fixes you can do on the site that
>> >> would increase accessibility. Some of the issues encountered throughout
>> >> the
>> >> site include:
>> >>
>> >> - Missing alt text
>> >> - Missing form labels
>> >> - Empty links
>> >> - Empty buttons
>> >> - Poor visual focus for sighted keyboard only users
>> >> - Skipped headings making the document structure hard to understand.
>> >> - Orphaned form labels
>> >> - Redundant links (2 links side by side going to the same place)
>> >> - Links coded as buttons
>> >>
>> >> And these were found in less than 5 minutes looking at the different
>> >> sections of the site. I think it would be fair to say that these issues
>> >> apply at all workflows on Patreon.
>> >>
>> >> I would *strongly* suggest that your team spend some time analysing the
>> >> pages from an accessibility perspective. Try to use the site with only
>> >> the
>> >> keyboard. Use VoiceOver (if you're on OS X) or download NVDA if you're
>> >> on
>> >> Windows. Try to navigate the site that way. Look at each page using an
>> >> automated accessibility checker (keep in mind these tend to capture
>> >> only
>> >> about 40% of the issues, but they'll give you a great overview of all
>> >> the
>> >> pages you have). Tools like tenon.io or WebAIM's WAVE toolbar can help
>> >> you
>> >> identify many issues quite quickly.
>> >>
>> >> And if you feel you don't have the expertise on your team to make it
>> >> happen, hire someone who does that. Obviously, I'd love to put myself
>> >> forward to provide assessment and training to your teams - it's what I
>> >> do.
>> >> There are many good, reputable outfits out there that could also help.
>> >>
>> >> Nic
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 1:55 PM, Tal Raviv <tal@...> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Hi Nic - that's really good information. Can you elaborate on their
>> >>> troubles? One initiative is that we are working hard on our API
>> >>> platform.
>> >>> This will allow many other apps and readers and other content
>> >>> platforms to
>> >>> deliver and gate content to approach accessibility in a high-leverage
>> >>> way.
>> >>> I'd love to have a quick description/understanding of their issues
>> >>> (content
>> >>> related, payment related, etc)
>> >>>
>> >>> Tal Raviv
>> >>> Product Manager, Growth and Platform
>> >>> 561.789.1015
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Nicolas Steenhout <nic@...>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Thank you for the update.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Are you able to share what these initatives are? Is there any way I
>> >>>> can
>> >>>> help?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I have *several* people who need accessibility that aren't able to
>> >>>> access my podcasts about accessibility on Patreon. This is beyond
>> >>>> important
>> >>>> to me.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Thank you
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Nic
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 12:40 PM, Tal Raviv <tal@...> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Hi Nicolas, very much agreed this is important. I appreciate the
>> >>>>> follow
>> >>>>> up and keeping this top of mind.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Right now we have prioritized a few initiatives that are
>> >>>>> mission-critical in order to be able to address accessibility. Not
>> >>>>> my ideal
>> >>>>> answer - will keep you posted.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Tal
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Tal Raviv
>> >>>>> Product Manager, Growth and Platform
>> >>>>> 561.789.1015
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 11:46 AM, Nicolas Steenhout <nic@...>
>> >>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Hello Tal,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> It's been nearly 3 months since we discussed accessibility at
>> >>>>>> Patreon.
>> >>>>>> Are you able to give me an indication as to when the accessibility
>> >>>>>> team will
>> >>>>>> be in place and starting work on these important issues?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Thank you.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Nic
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 2:44 PM, Tal Raviv <tal@...> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Hi Nicolas,
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Perfect and thank you for reaching out. We have done some scoping
>> >>>>>>> of
>> >>>>>>> accessibility, enough to know how bad we are at it. We are
>> >>>>>>> spinning up a
>> >>>>>>> team that would officially own this aspect of our product,
>> >>>>>>> including other
>> >>>>>>> frontend infrastructure. Now that we've grown to much greater
>> >>>>>>> reach than
>> >>>>>>> ever before, creator and patron accessibility is super important
>> >>>>>>> to us
>> >>>>>>> moving forward.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Although I have scoped this in the past, will not be leading this
>> >>>>>>> team, and I will share your information with those who will do
>> >>>>>>> that to reach
>> >>>>>>> out when they finish staffing and forming it.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Tal
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Tal Raviv
>> >>>>>>> Product Manager, Growth and Platform
>> >>>>>>> 561.789.1015
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 9:48 AM, Nicolas Steenhout <nic@...>
>> >>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Hello Tal,
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Adam gave me your name and email address and said you were the
>> >>>>>>>> best
>> >>>>>>>> person to speak to about improving web accessibility for Patreon.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> As I was telling him, I'm interested in using the platform as a
>> >>>>>>>> Creator, but my field of expertise is web accessibility and it
>> >>>>>>>> would be
>> >>>>>>>> great if Patreon were to be accessible to people with
>> >>>>>>>> disabilities.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> I'm not sure how much work or digging you guys have done in that
>> >>>>>>>> area at this point. There are several things I could do with you
>> >>>>>>>> to work on
>> >>>>>>>> improving, including providing training to your design, dev and
>> >>>>>>>> QA teams to
>> >>>>>>>> running an audit, and even helping directly with remediation if
>> >>>>>>>> you want.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> I had a very quick look and noticed several issues that would be
>> >>>>>>>> easy fixes and quick wins. Some other areas would require a
>> >>>>>>>> deeper analysis
>> >>>>>>>> and a bit more work.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Perhaps the best thing would be to get on a call at some point
>> >>>>>>>> next
>> >>>>>>>> week and see where you're at and how we can work together to
>> >>>>>>>> improve things?
>> >>>>>>>> My schedule is pretty open so please let me know what a good time
>> >>>>>>>> for you
>> >>>>>>>> would be.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Thank you
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Nic
>> >>>>>>>> http://incl.ca
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>
>




Mike Sedmak
 

Is the problem specifically for creators? I am a patron of several
projects and have been able to change my payment method and level of
pledge.

Thanks,
Mike

On 4/3/18, Robert Kingett <kingettr@gmail.com> wrote:
The below email thread is a long running one about lack of accessibility
of the service. I know many who would like to use the service and who
can't edit their pages or change prices or cancel pledges or even use
the service. The app is actually worse than the website. I know many of
you are not patreon creators, but this is how I, and many others, make
money.


I am gonna call the below today. If anybody wants to send emails or make
phone calls, to try to get someone, let me know. clearly, he likes
ignoring emails.


Tal Raviv
Product Manager
phone: 561.789.1015

tal@patreon.com


On 4/3/2018 11:10 AM, Nicolas Steenhout wrote:
Hello again Tal,

I haven't heard from you for nearly a week on my latest email, and for
nearly 3 weeks on my previous email.

I have included Robert Kingett on this email as he is a blind
individual who is unable to use Patreon. He is interested in speaking
to people at Patreon on improving accessibility.

Thank you

Nic

On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 1:04 PM, Nicolas Steenhout <nic@incl.ca
<mailto:nic@incl.ca>> wrote:

Hello again,

Are you able to give me an update? It's now been 10 months since I
first reached out to you about accessibility. I did not hear back
from you about who I can speak within Patreon to get this moving.

I have people who want to become my patron, but are unable to use
the site because of the accessibility issues. Your lack of
movement is costing me money.

I also know artists and podcasters with disabilities who want to
put their projects on Patreon, but who are unable to join because
Patreon is not accessible.

It would be great if Patreon came to accessibility willingly
rather than dragging their feet to it.

Thank you for a PROMPT response.

Nic

On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 4:35 PM, Nicolas Steenhout <nic@incl.ca
<mailto:nic@incl.ca>> wrote:

Thank you.

I'm sorry, but "it's on our list and in our consciousness"
isn't good
enough anymore. It's been well over 6 months that I initially
contacted Patreon about this issue.

To say "it's on our list", is basically paying lip service to
something that impacts a large minority. Promises without
action are
empty.

Who can I speak to within Patreon that can provide more
information
and act on it?

Thank you

Nic

On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 4:08 PM, Tal Raviv <tal@patreon.com
<mailto:tal@patreon.com>> wrote:
> Nicolas, thanks for the ping. It's on our list and in our
consciousness, and
> I can't externally provide dates.
>
> Tal Raviv
> Product Manager
> 561.789.1015
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 10:24 AM, Nicolas Steenhout
<nic@incl.ca <mailto:nic@incl.ca>> wrote:
>>
>> Hello again Tal,
>>
>> I'm reviving this conversation because it's been nearly 6
months with
>> no movement on Patreon's part on this.
>>
>> What are you going to do to improve accessibility?
>> When are you going to do it?
>>
>> Nic
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 8:08 PM, Tal Raviv <tal@patreon.com
<mailto:tal@patreon.com>> wrote:
>> > Yep, to be clear we're not creating an accessibility API.
>> >
>> > I appreciate the deep insights, and I agree we have major
problems. That
>> > is
>> > an impressive list. I can think of additional bad
situations that are
>> > also
>> > very embarrassing, from our own experiences internally.
>> >
>> > We need to fix this. Period. I can't share too much more
about our
>> > difficult
>> > internal decisions, but I can tell you that this is
something that
>> > everyone
>> > on the product team is aligned with and knows is
important as Patreon
>> > grows
>> > to become a significant membership engine. We also know that
>> > accessibility
>> > is a scale we need to climb and do not want to treat as a
checkbox and
>> > must
>> > be respected as an ongoing commitment.
>> >
>> > Let's stay in touch. When this comes near, we will need
help.
>> >
>> > Tal
>> >
>> > Tal Raviv
>> > Product Manager, Growth and Platform
>> > 561.789.1015
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 11:49 AM, Nicolas Steenhout
<nic@incl.ca <mailto:nic@incl.ca>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hello again Tal,
>> >>
>> >> If you'll allow me to be candid - I think your approach
of doing an
>> >> accessibility API is entirely the wrong approach. This
is pretty much
>> >> akin
>> >> to relying on 3rd party vendors to offer accessibility.
It's an
>> >> approach
>> >> that doesn't work. I know - I've been working in this
field for over
>> >> two
>> >> decades and I've see it over and over.
>> >>
>> >> I'm not saying APIs are bad, but they should not be your
first solution
>> >> for accessibility.
>> >>
>> >> There are several relatively simple fixes you can do on
the site that
>> >> would increase accessibility. Some of the issues
encountered throughout
>> >> the
>> >> site include:
>> >>
>> >> - Missing alt text
>> >> - Missing form labels
>> >> - Empty links
>> >> - Empty buttons
>> >> - Poor visual focus for sighted keyboard only users
>> >> - Skipped headings making the document structure hard to
understand.
>> >> - Orphaned form labels
>> >> - Redundant links (2 links side by side going to the
same place)
>> >> - Links coded as buttons
>> >>
>> >> And these were found in less than 5 minutes looking at
the different
>> >> sections of the site. I think it would be fair to say
that these issues
>> >> apply at all workflows on Patreon.
>> >>
>> >> I would *strongly* suggest that your team spend some
time analysing the
>> >> pages from an accessibility perspective. Try to use the
site with only
>> >> the
>> >> keyboard. Use VoiceOver (if you're on OS X) or download
NVDA if you're
>> >> on
>> >> Windows. Try to navigate the site that way. Look at each
page using an
>> >> automated accessibility checker (keep in mind these tend
to capture
>> >> only
>> >> about 40% of the issues, but they'll give you a great
overview of all
>> >> the
>> >> pages you have). Tools like tenon.io <http://tenon.io>
or WebAIM's WAVE toolbar can help
>> >> you
>> >> identify many issues quite quickly.
>> >>
>> >> And if you feel you don't have the expertise on your
team to make it
>> >> happen, hire someone who does that. Obviously, I'd love
to put myself
>> >> forward to provide assessment and training to your teams
- it's what I
>> >> do.
>> >> There are many good, reputable outfits out there that
could also help.
>> >>
>> >> Nic
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 1:55 PM, Tal Raviv
<tal@patreon.com <mailto:tal@patreon.com>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Hi Nic - that's really good information. Can you
elaborate on their
>> >>> troubles? One initiative is that we are working hard on
our API
>> >>> platform.
>> >>> This will allow many other apps and readers and other
content
>> >>> platforms to
>> >>> deliver and gate content to approach accessibility in a
high-leverage
>> >>> way.
>> >>> I'd love to have a quick description/understanding of
their issues
>> >>> (content
>> >>> related, payment related, etc)
>> >>>
>> >>> Tal Raviv
>> >>> Product Manager, Growth and Platform
>> >>> 561.789.1015
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Nicolas Steenhout
<nic@incl.ca <mailto:nic@incl.ca>>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Thank you for the update.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Are you able to share what these initatives are? Is
there any way I
>> >>>> can
>> >>>> help?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I have *several* people who need accessibility that
aren't able to
>> >>>> access my podcasts about accessibility on Patreon.
This is beyond
>> >>>> important
>> >>>> to me.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Thank you
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Nic
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 12:40 PM, Tal Raviv
<tal@patreon.com <mailto:tal@patreon.com>> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Hi Nicolas, very much agreed this is important. I
appreciate the
>> >>>>> follow
>> >>>>> up and keeping this top of mind.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Right now we have prioritized a few initiatives that are
>> >>>>> mission-critical in order to be able to address
accessibility. Not
>> >>>>> my ideal
>> >>>>> answer - will keep you posted.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Tal
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Tal Raviv
>> >>>>> Product Manager, Growth and Platform
>> >>>>> 561.789.1015
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 11:46 AM, Nicolas Steenhout
<nic@incl.ca <mailto:nic@incl.ca>>
>> >>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Hello Tal,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> It's been nearly 3 months since we discussed
accessibility at
>> >>>>>> Patreon.
>> >>>>>> Are you able to give me an indication as to when the
accessibility
>> >>>>>> team will
>> >>>>>> be in place and starting work on these important
issues?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Thank you.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Nic
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 2:44 PM, Tal Raviv
<tal@patreon.com <mailto:tal@patreon.com>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Hi Nicolas,
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Perfect and thank you for reaching out. We have
done some scoping
>> >>>>>>> of
>> >>>>>>> accessibility, enough to know how bad we are at it.
We are
>> >>>>>>> spinning up a
>> >>>>>>> team that would officially own this aspect of our
product,
>> >>>>>>> including other
>> >>>>>>> frontend infrastructure. Now that we've grown to
much greater
>> >>>>>>> reach than
>> >>>>>>> ever before, creator and patron accessibility is
super important
>> >>>>>>> to us
>> >>>>>>> moving forward.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Although I have scoped this in the past, will not
be leading this
>> >>>>>>> team, and I will share your information with those
who will do
>> >>>>>>> that to reach
>> >>>>>>> out when they finish staffing and forming it.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Tal
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Tal Raviv
>> >>>>>>> Product Manager, Growth and Platform
>> >>>>>>> 561.789.1015
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 9:48 AM, Nicolas Steenhout
<nic@incl.ca <mailto:nic@incl.ca>>
>> >>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Hello Tal,
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Adam gave me your name and email address and said
you were the
>> >>>>>>>> best
>> >>>>>>>> person to speak to about improving web
accessibility for Patreon.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> As I was telling him, I'm interested in using the
platform as a
>> >>>>>>>> Creator, but my field of expertise is web
accessibility and it
>> >>>>>>>> would be
>> >>>>>>>> great if Patreon were to be accessible to people with
>> >>>>>>>> disabilities.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> I'm not sure how much work or digging you guys
have done in that
>> >>>>>>>> area at this point. There are several things I
could do with you
>> >>>>>>>> to work on
>> >>>>>>>> improving, including providing training to your
design, dev and
>> >>>>>>>> QA teams to
>> >>>>>>>> running an audit, and even helping directly with
remediation if
>> >>>>>>>> you want.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> I had a very quick look and noticed several issues
that would be
>> >>>>>>>> easy fixes and quick wins. Some other areas would
require a
>> >>>>>>>> deeper analysis
>> >>>>>>>> and a bit more work.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Perhaps the best thing would be to get on a call
at some point
>> >>>>>>>> next
>> >>>>>>>> week and see where you're at and how we can work
together to
>> >>>>>>>> improve things?
>> >>>>>>>> My schedule is pretty open so please let me know
what a good time
>> >>>>>>>> for you
>> >>>>>>>> would be.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Thank you
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Nic
>> >>>>>>>> http://incl.ca
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>
>