Email clients


Damien Garwood <damien@...>
 

Hi there,
 
Ten minutes in the life of seemingly old fashioned Damien, using Windows 7 and Windows Live Mail:
* Check emails.
* Install Dropbox.
* Realise that it’s turned into a pile of sludgy sluggish inaccessible mess.
* Uninstall Dropbox.
* Attempt to check emails.
* Receive a message that WLDCore.dll is missing.
So in that ten minutes, the only significant thing was to install and uninstall Dropbox, leading me to think that Dropbox somehow corrupted it. I'll save that rant for my rants folder.
I then nonchalantly uninstall, and launch the Windows Live Essentials installer expecting to be able to repair it. Of course, it doesn’t budge. Only then, do I find out that WLM has been discontinued, seemingly with nothing to replace it for Windows 7 users. Another rant for my rants folder.
 
I wouldn’t be particularly bothered. I wouldn't say that WLM is the best client I've ever used. In fact, every client I've used up to now could do with some accessibility tips. Even so, despite its shortcomings, WLM was the next best thing to OE and so I’ve been using that for the past four or five years.
This puts me in a real dilemma. I’m only able to write this email now, thanks to System Restore (A feature I swore I would never use thanks to its abilities to mess things up). As a result, I highly feel that I need to get a replacement client, hopefully something a little less sporadic in its development and life/support cycles. However, I can’t find a basic, accessible client that:
1. Is free of unnecessary outright bloated clutter,
2. Is fully accessible, responsive and comprehensible, and
3. Is able to import WLM folders and messages.
 
Here are the three that I have heard apparently work well, and my experiences:
 
1. OEClassic
Since I liked Outlook Express, and since I have heard a lot about OEClassic on this list, I thought it would make sense to first try that one. However I was disappointed. When tabbing through the main window, I had no idea what was what (the controls seemed to be unlabelled or labelled incorrectly), and some even said “Unknown”. And that’s even before I touched any settings.
 
2. Pegasus
While Pegasus was the first email client I was ever introduced to, that was nearly 20 years ago, and using a different screen reader. Similar to OEClassic, I found several “Unknown” controls, not to mention the old rich-text-based help system used in the Windows 98 days.
 
3. Thunderbird
Thunderbird was the only option of the three to allow me to set up a mailbox before use, and even that was a nightmare, simply because it was determined to persuade me to use encrypted channels. Also, while it does seem to be the most accessible of the three in terms of navigation, it also seems full of unnecessary clutter (different tabs, toolbars, calendars and news feeds, half of which I’ll never use). Also can’t get my head around the fact that its window makes heavy use of HTML – I’m used to seeing a good old listbox, pressing enter on a message, and reading it.
 
Finally, WLM seems to be absent from import options of all three. I see frequent mention of Outlook Express, Outlook, Windows Mail, Thunderbird...But not Windows Live.
At this point, I've no idea what my next step is.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers.
Damien.


Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Damien,


If you use Thunderbird, a lot of the extraneous stuff can be turned off under tools/options.  In addition, NVDA works much better with Thunderbird than does JAWS.  Also, there is an add on for Thunderbird and Firefox for NVDA that allows among other things, the re positioning of columns in Thunderbird.  This is very convenient for those of us who wish to have the Sender's name first rather than the default subject line first in the columns as they are read when you move up/down a list of received messages.




On 4/15/2018 10:12 AM, Damien Garwood wrote:
Hi there,
 
Ten minutes in the life of seemingly old fashioned Damien, using Windows 7 and Windows Live Mail:
* Check emails.
* Install Dropbox.
* Realise that it’s turned into a pile of sludgy sluggish inaccessible mess.
* Uninstall Dropbox.
* Attempt to check emails.
* Receive a message that WLDCore.dll is missing.
So in that ten minutes, the only significant thing was to install and uninstall Dropbox, leading me to think that Dropbox somehow corrupted it. I'll save that rant for my rants folder.
I then nonchalantly uninstall, and launch the Windows Live Essentials installer expecting to be able to repair it. Of course, it doesn’t budge. Only then, do I find out that WLM has been discontinued, seemingly with nothing to replace it for Windows 7 users. Another rant for my rants folder.
 
I wouldn’t be particularly bothered. I wouldn't say that WLM is the best client I've ever used. In fact, every client I've used up to now could do with some accessibility tips. Even so, despite its shortcomings, WLM was the next best thing to OE and so I’ve been using that for the past four or five years.
This puts me in a real dilemma. I’m only able to write this email now, thanks to System Restore (A feature I swore I would never use thanks to its abilities to mess things up). As a result, I highly feel that I need to get a replacement client, hopefully something a little less sporadic in its development and life/support cycles. However, I can’t find a basic, accessible client that:
1. Is free of unnecessary outright bloated clutter,
2. Is fully accessible, responsive and comprehensible, and
3. Is able to import WLM folders and messages.
 
Here are the three that I have heard apparently work well, and my experiences:
 
1. OEClassic
Since I liked Outlook Express, and since I have heard a lot about OEClassic on this list, I thought it would make sense to first try that one. However I was disappointed. When tabbing through the main window, I had no idea what was what (the controls seemed to be unlabelled or labelled incorrectly), and some even said “Unknown”. And that’s even before I touched any settings.
 
2. Pegasus
While Pegasus was the first email client I was ever introduced to, that was nearly 20 years ago, and using a different screen reader. Similar to OEClassic, I found several “Unknown” controls, not to mention the old rich-text-based help system used in the Windows 98 days.
 
3. Thunderbird
Thunderbird was the only option of the three to allow me to set up a mailbox before use, and even that was a nightmare, simply because it was determined to persuade me to use encrypted channels. Also, while it does seem to be the most accessible of the three in terms of navigation, it also seems full of unnecessary clutter (different tabs, toolbars, calendars and news feeds, half of which I’ll never use). Also can’t get my head around the fact that its window makes heavy use of HTML – I’m used to seeing a good old listbox, pressing enter on a message, and reading it.
 
Finally, WLM seems to be absent from import options of all three. I see frequent mention of Outlook Express, Outlook, Windows Mail, Thunderbird...But not Windows Live.
At this point, I've no idea what my next step is.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers.
Damien.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Damien Garwood <damien@...>
 

Hi,
You need an addon for repositioning columns? Wow. Usually something like that would come as an option within the application itself (Explorer, OE etc). Considering how flexible and versatile Mozilla applications generally are, that surprises me to no end.
Would you say Thunderbird was the best client? If so then I’ll give it more than just the perfunctory glance. Like I say, it does seem the most accessible when it comes to finding and navigating controls. Also, how would I go about importing my WLM stuff over?
Cheers.
Damien.
 

Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients
 

Hi Damien,

 

If you use Thunderbird, a lot of the extraneous stuff can be turned off under tools/options.  In addition, NVDA works much better with Thunderbird than does JAWS.  Also, there is an add on for Thunderbird and Firefox for NVDA that allows among other things, the re positioning of columns in Thunderbird.  This is very convenient for those of us who wish to have the Sender's name first rather than the default subject line first in the columns as they are read when you move up/down a list of received messages.

 

 


On 4/15/2018 10:12 AM, Damien Garwood wrote:
Hi there,
 
Ten minutes in the life of seemingly old fashioned Damien, using Windows 7 and Windows Live Mail:
* Check emails.
* Install Dropbox.
* Realise that it’s turned into a pile of sludgy sluggish inaccessible mess.
* Uninstall Dropbox.
* Attempt to check emails.
* Receive a message that WLDCore.dll is missing.
So in that ten minutes, the only significant thing was to install and uninstall Dropbox, leading me to think that Dropbox somehow corrupted it. I'll save that rant for my rants folder.
I then nonchalantly uninstall, and launch the Windows Live Essentials installer expecting to be able to repair it. Of course, it doesn’t budge. Only then, do I find out that WLM has been discontinued, seemingly with nothing to replace it for Windows 7 users. Another rant for my rants folder.
 
I wouldn’t be particularly bothered. I wouldn't say that WLM is the best client I've ever used. In fact, every client I've used up to now could do with some accessibility tips. Even so, despite its shortcomings, WLM was the next best thing to OE and so I’ve been using that for the past four or five years.
This puts me in a real dilemma. I’m only able to write this email now, thanks to System Restore (A feature I swore I would never use thanks to its abilities to mess things up). As a result, I highly feel that I need to get a replacement client, hopefully something a little less sporadic in its development and life/support cycles. However, I can’t find a basic, accessible client that:
1. Is free of unnecessary outright bloated clutter,
2. Is fully accessible, responsive and comprehensible, and
3. Is able to import WLM folders and messages.
 
Here are the three that I have heard apparently work well, and my experiences:
 
1. OEClassic
Since I liked Outlook Express, and since I have heard a lot about OEClassic on this list, I thought it would make sense to first try that one. However I was disappointed. When tabbing through the main window, I had no idea what was what (the controls seemed to be unlabelled or labelled incorrectly), and some even said “Unknown”. And that’s even before I touched any settings.
 
2. Pegasus
While Pegasus was the first email client I was ever introduced to, that was nearly 20 years ago, and using a different screen reader. Similar to OEClassic, I found several “Unknown” controls, not to mention the old rich-text-based help system used in the Windows 98 days.
 
3. Thunderbird
Thunderbird was the only option of the three to allow me to set up a mailbox before use, and even that was a nightmare, simply because it was determined to persuade me to use encrypted channels. Also, while it does seem to be the most accessible of the three in terms of navigation, it also seems full of unnecessary clutter (different tabs, toolbars, calendars and news feeds, half of which I’ll never use). Also can’t get my head around the fact that its window makes heavy use of HTML – I’m used to seeing a good old listbox, pressing enter on a message, and reading it.
 
Finally, WLM seems to be absent from import options of all three. I see frequent mention of Outlook Express, Outlook, Windows Mail, Thunderbird...But not Windows Live.
At this point, I've no idea what my next step is.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers.
Damien.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Brandon Cross <bcross3286@...>
 

Yeah, I don't like any of the mail clients either. Thunderbird is the best, but it is laggy, extremely laggy, bloated, etc.

On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 10:40 AM, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...> wrote:

Hi Damien,


If you use Thunderbird, a lot of the extraneous stuff can be turned off under tools/options.  In addition, NVDA works much better with Thunderbird than does JAWS.  Also, there is an add on for Thunderbird and Firefox for NVDA that allows among other things, the re positioning of columns in Thunderbird.  This is very convenient for those of us who wish to have the Sender's name first rather than the default subject line first in the columns as they are read when you move up/down a list of received messages.




On 4/15/2018 10:12 AM, Damien Garwood wrote:
Hi there,
 
Ten minutes in the life of seemingly old fashioned Damien, using Windows 7 and Windows Live Mail:
* Check emails.
* Install Dropbox.
* Realise that it’s turned into a pile of sludgy sluggish inaccessible mess.
* Uninstall Dropbox.
* Attempt to check emails.
* Receive a message that WLDCore.dll is missing.
So in that ten minutes, the only significant thing was to install and uninstall Dropbox, leading me to think that Dropbox somehow corrupted it. I'll save that rant for my rants folder.
I then nonchalantly uninstall, and launch the Windows Live Essentials installer expecting to be able to repair it. Of course, it doesn’t budge. Only then, do I find out that WLM has been discontinued, seemingly with nothing to replace it for Windows 7 users. Another rant for my rants folder.
 
I wouldn’t be particularly bothered. I wouldn't say that WLM is the best client I've ever used. In fact, every client I've used up to now could do with some accessibility tips. Even so, despite its shortcomings, WLM was the next best thing to OE and so I’ve been using that for the past four or five years.
This puts me in a real dilemma. I’m only able to write this email now, thanks to System Restore (A feature I swore I would never use thanks to its abilities to mess things up). As a result, I highly feel that I need to get a replacement client, hopefully something a little less sporadic in its development and life/support cycles. However, I can’t find a basic, accessible client that:
1. Is free of unnecessary outright bloated clutter,
2. Is fully accessible, responsive and comprehensible, and
3. Is able to import WLM folders and messages.
 
Here are the three that I have heard apparently work well, and my experiences:
 
1. OEClassic
Since I liked Outlook Express, and since I have heard a lot about OEClassic on this list, I thought it would make sense to first try that one. However I was disappointed. When tabbing through the main window, I had no idea what was what (the controls seemed to be unlabelled or labelled incorrectly), and some even said “Unknown”. And that’s even before I touched any settings.
 
2. Pegasus
While Pegasus was the first email client I was ever introduced to, that was nearly 20 years ago, and using a different screen reader. Similar to OEClassic, I found several “Unknown” controls, not to mention the old rich-text-based help system used in the Windows 98 days.
 
3. Thunderbird
Thunderbird was the only option of the three to allow me to set up a mailbox before use, and even that was a nightmare, simply because it was determined to persuade me to use encrypted channels. Also, while it does seem to be the most accessible of the three in terms of navigation, it also seems full of unnecessary clutter (different tabs, toolbars, calendars and news feeds, half of which I’ll never use). Also can’t get my head around the fact that its window makes heavy use of HTML – I’m used to seeing a good old listbox, pressing enter on a message, and reading it.
 
Finally, WLM seems to be absent from import options of all three. I see frequent mention of Outlook Express, Outlook, Windows Mail, Thunderbird...But not Windows Live.
At this point, I've no idea what my next step is.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers.
Damien.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"



Gene
 

It may be possible that installing Drop Box caused this problem but it's unlikely.  You can try the following:
You can reinstall Windows Live Mail but you will need a full installer since Microsoft no longer provides one.  I don't know if you can just run the installer or if you have to remove Windows Live Mail first.  You can try either way you want.  I'll assume you are using the ribbon version and I'll send you a download link for that.  If you are using the older menu version, let us know. 
 
Instead of reinstalling the program, you may wish to run a system restore point from before the problem started first, and see if that corrects it. 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 9:12 AM
Subject: [nvda] Email clients

Hi there,
 
Ten minutes in the life of seemingly old fashioned Damien, using Windows 7 and Windows Live Mail:
* Check emails.
* Install Dropbox.
* Realise that it’s turned into a pile of sludgy sluggish inaccessible mess.
* Uninstall Dropbox.
* Attempt to check emails.
* Receive a message that WLDCore.dll is missing.
So in that ten minutes, the only significant thing was to install and uninstall Dropbox, leading me to think that Dropbox somehow corrupted it. I'll save that rant for my rants folder.
I then nonchalantly uninstall, and launch the Windows Live Essentials installer expecting to be able to repair it. Of course, it doesn’t budge. Only then, do I find out that WLM has been discontinued, seemingly with nothing to replace it for Windows 7 users. Another rant for my rants folder.
 
I wouldn’t be particularly bothered. I wouldn't say that WLM is the best client I've ever used. In fact, every client I've used up to now could do with some accessibility tips. Even so, despite its shortcomings, WLM was the next best thing to OE and so I’ve been using that for the past four or five years.
This puts me in a real dilemma. I’m only able to write this email now, thanks to System Restore (A feature I swore I would never use thanks to its abilities to mess things up). As a result, I highly feel that I need to get a replacement client, hopefully something a little less sporadic in its development and life/support cycles. However, I can’t find a basic, accessible client that:
1. Is free of unnecessary outright bloated clutter,
2. Is fully accessible, responsive and comprehensible, and
3. Is able to import WLM folders and messages.
 
Here are the three that I have heard apparently work well, and my experiences:
 
1. OEClassic
Since I liked Outlook Express, and since I have heard a lot about OEClassic on this list, I thought it would make sense to first try that one. However I was disappointed. When tabbing through the main window, I had no idea what was what (the controls seemed to be unlabelled or labelled incorrectly), and some even said “Unknown”. And that’s even before I touched any settings.
 
2. Pegasus
While Pegasus was the first email client I was ever introduced to, that was nearly 20 years ago, and using a different screen reader. Similar to OEClassic, I found several “Unknown” controls, not to mention the old rich-text-based help system used in the Windows 98 days.
 
3. Thunderbird
Thunderbird was the only option of the three to allow me to set up a mailbox before use, and even that was a nightmare, simply because it was determined to persuade me to use encrypted channels. Also, while it does seem to be the most accessible of the three in terms of navigation, it also seems full of unnecessary clutter (different tabs, toolbars, calendars and news feeds, half of which I’ll never use). Also can’t get my head around the fact that its window makes heavy use of HTML – I’m used to seeing a good old listbox, pressing enter on a message, and reading it.
 
Finally, WLM seems to be absent from import options of all three. I see frequent mention of Outlook Express, Outlook, Windows Mail, Thunderbird...But not Windows Live.
At this point, I've no idea what my next step is.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers.
Damien.


Rui Fontes
 

You have a Thunderbird addon to handle *.EML messages...

Rui

Às 15:12 de 15/04/2018, Damien Garwood escreveu:

Hi there,
Ten minutes in the life of seemingly old fashioned Damien, using Windows 7 and Windows Live Mail:
* Check emails.
* Install Dropbox.
* Realise that it’s turned into a pile of sludgy sluggish inaccessible mess.
* Uninstall Dropbox.
* Attempt to check emails.
* Receive a message that WLDCore.dll is missing.
So in that ten minutes, the only significant thing was to install and uninstall Dropbox, leading me to think that Dropbox somehow corrupted it. I'll save that rant for my rants folder.
I then nonchalantly uninstall, and launch the Windows Live Essentials installer expecting to be able to repair it. Of course, it doesn’t budge. Only then, do I find out that WLM has been discontinued, seemingly with nothing to replace it for Windows 7 users. Another rant for my rants folder.
I wouldn’t be particularly bothered. I wouldn't say that WLM is the best client I've ever used. In fact, every client I've used up to now could do with some accessibility tips. Even so, despite its shortcomings, WLM was the next best thing to OE and so I’ve been using that for the past four or five years.
This puts me in a real dilemma. I’m only able to write this email now, thanks to System Restore (A feature I swore I would never use thanks to its abilities to mess things up). As a result, I highly feel that I need to get a replacement client, hopefully something a little less sporadic in its development and life/support cycles. However, I can’t find a basic, accessible client that:
1. Is free of unnecessary outright bloated clutter,
2. Is fully accessible, responsive and comprehensible, and
3. Is able to import WLM folders and messages.
Here are the three that I have heard apparently work well, and my experiences:
1. OEClassic
Since I liked Outlook Express, and since I have heard a lot about OEClassic on this list, I thought it would make sense to first try that one. However I was disappointed. When tabbing through the main window, I had no idea what was what (the controls seemed to be unlabelled or labelled incorrectly), and some even said “Unknown”. And that’s even before I touched any settings.
2. Pegasus
While Pegasus was the first email client I was ever introduced to, that was nearly 20 years ago, and using a different screen reader. Similar to OEClassic, I found several “Unknown” controls, not to mention the old rich-text-based help system used in the Windows 98 days.
3. Thunderbird
Thunderbird was the only option of the three to allow me to set up a mailbox before use, and even that was a nightmare, simply because it was determined to persuade me to use encrypted channels. Also, while it does seem to be the most accessible of the three in terms of navigation, it also seems full of unnecessary clutter (different tabs, toolbars, calendars and news feeds, half of which I’ll never use). Also can’t get my head around the fact that its window makes heavy use of HTML – I’m used to seeing a good old listbox, pressing enter on a message, and reading it.
Finally, WLM seems to be absent from import options of all three. I see frequent mention of Outlook Express, Outlook, Windows Mail, Thunderbird...But not Windows Live.
At this point, I've no idea what my next step is.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers.
Damien.


Damien Garwood <damien@...>
 

Hi,
I would be interested to have the menu version as well, if you have it. I’ve never quite got my head around ribbons and so have never been able to really look into what it can do.
Just goes to show that what you learned in IT classes at school 20 years ago soon turns out to be completely pointless and thus a total waste of time and energy. But hey ho. Such is life. Everything must experience change, I guess.
Cheers.
Damien.
 

From: Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients
 
It may be possible that installing Drop Box caused this problem but it's unlikely.  You can try the following:
You can reinstall Windows Live Mail but you will need a full installer since Microsoft no longer provides one.  I don't know if you can just run the installer or if you have to remove Windows Live Mail first.  You can try either way you want.  I'll assume you are using the ribbon version and I'll send you a download link for that.  If you are using the older menu version, let us know. 
 
Instead of reinstalling the program, you may wish to run a system restore point from before the problem started first, and see if that corrects it. 
 
The download link is:
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 9:12 AM
Subject: [nvda] Email clients
 
Hi there,
 
Ten minutes in the life of seemingly old fashioned Damien, using Windows 7 and Windows Live Mail:
* Check emails.
* Install Dropbox.
* Realise that it’s turned into a pile of sludgy sluggish inaccessible mess.
* Uninstall Dropbox.
* Attempt to check emails.
* Receive a message that WLDCore.dll is missing.
So in that ten minutes, the only significant thing was to install and uninstall Dropbox, leading me to think that Dropbox somehow corrupted it. I'll save that rant for my rants folder.
I then nonchalantly uninstall, and launch the Windows Live Essentials installer expecting to be able to repair it. Of course, it doesn’t budge. Only then, do I find out that WLM has been discontinued, seemingly with nothing to replace it for Windows 7 users. Another rant for my rants folder.
 
I wouldn’t be particularly bothered. I wouldn't say that WLM is the best client I've ever used. In fact, every client I've used up to now could do with some accessibility tips. Even so, despite its shortcomings, WLM was the next best thing to OE and so I’ve been using that for the past four or five years.
This puts me in a real dilemma. I’m only able to write this email now, thanks to System Restore (A feature I swore I would never use thanks to its abilities to mess things up). As a result, I highly feel that I need to get a replacement client, hopefully something a little less sporadic in its development and life/support cycles. However, I can’t find a basic, accessible client that:
1. Is free of unnecessary outright bloated clutter,
2. Is fully accessible, responsive and comprehensible, and
3. Is able to import WLM folders and messages.
 
Here are the three that I have heard apparently work well, and my experiences:
 
1. OEClassic
Since I liked Outlook Express, and since I have heard a lot about OEClassic on this list, I thought it would make sense to first try that one. However I was disappointed. When tabbing through the main window, I had no idea what was what (the controls seemed to be unlabelled or labelled incorrectly), and some even said “Unknown”. And that’s even before I touched any settings.
 
2. Pegasus
While Pegasus was the first email client I was ever introduced to, that was nearly 20 years ago, and using a different screen reader. Similar to OEClassic, I found several “Unknown” controls, not to mention the old rich-text-based help system used in the Windows 98 days.
 
3. Thunderbird
Thunderbird was the only option of the three to allow me to set up a mailbox before use, and even that was a nightmare, simply because it was determined to persuade me to use encrypted channels. Also, while it does seem to be the most accessible of the three in terms of navigation, it also seems full of unnecessary clutter (different tabs, toolbars, calendars and news feeds, half of which I’ll never use). Also can’t get my head around the fact that its window makes heavy use of HTML – I’m used to seeing a good old listbox, pressing enter on a message, and reading it.
 
Finally, WLM seems to be absent from import options of all three. I see frequent mention of Outlook Express, Outlook, Windows Mail, Thunderbird...But not Windows Live.
At this point, I've no idea what my next step is.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers.
Damien.


Damien Garwood <damien@...>
 

Hi Rui,
I'm guessing *.eml is the WLM format? Never heard of that extension before.
Cheers.
Damien.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rui Fontes
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 4:10 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

You have a Thunderbird addon to handle *.EML messages...

Rui

Às 15:12 de 15/04/2018, Damien Garwood escreveu:
Hi there,
Ten minutes in the life of seemingly old fashioned Damien, using Windows 7 and Windows Live Mail:
* Check emails.
* Install Dropbox.
* Realise that it’s turned into a pile of sludgy sluggish inaccessible mess.
* Uninstall Dropbox.
* Attempt to check emails.
* Receive a message that WLDCore.dll is missing.
So in that ten minutes, the only significant thing was to install and uninstall Dropbox, leading me to think that Dropbox somehow corrupted it. I'll save that rant for my rants folder.
I then nonchalantly uninstall, and launch the Windows Live Essentials installer expecting to be able to repair it. Of course, it doesn’t budge. Only then, do I find out that WLM has been discontinued, seemingly with nothing to replace it for Windows 7 users. Another rant for my rants folder.
I wouldn’t be particularly bothered. I wouldn't say that WLM is the best client I've ever used. In fact, every client I've used up to now could do with some accessibility tips. Even so, despite its shortcomings, WLM was the next best thing to OE and so I’ve been using that for the past four or five years.
This puts me in a real dilemma. I’m only able to write this email now, thanks to System Restore (A feature I swore I would never use thanks to its abilities to mess things up). As a result, I highly feel that I need to get a replacement client, hopefully something a little less sporadic in its development and life/support cycles. However, I can’t find a basic, accessible client that:
1. Is free of unnecessary outright bloated clutter,
2. Is fully accessible, responsive and comprehensible, and
3. Is able to import WLM folders and messages.
Here are the three that I have heard apparently work well, and my experiences:
1. OEClassic
Since I liked Outlook Express, and since I have heard a lot about OEClassic on this list, I thought it would make sense to first try that one. However I was disappointed. When tabbing through the main window, I had no idea what was what (the controls seemed to be unlabelled or labelled incorrectly), and some even said “Unknown”. And that’s even before I touched any settings.
2. Pegasus
While Pegasus was the first email client I was ever introduced to, that was nearly 20 years ago, and using a different screen reader. Similar to OEClassic, I found several “Unknown” controls, not to mention the old rich-text-based help system used in the Windows 98 days.
3. Thunderbird
Thunderbird was the only option of the three to allow me to set up a mailbox before use, and even that was a nightmare, simply because it was determined to persuade me to use encrypted channels. Also, while it does seem to be the most accessible of the three in terms of navigation, it also seems full of unnecessary clutter (different tabs, toolbars, calendars and news feeds, half of which I’ll never use). Also can’t get my head around the fact that its window makes heavy use of HTML – I’m used to seeing a good old listbox, pressing enter on a message, and reading it.
Finally, WLM seems to be absent from import options of all three. I see frequent mention of Outlook Express, Outlook, Windows Mail, Thunderbird...But not Windows Live.
At this point, I've no idea what my next step is.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers.
Damien.


Gene
 

Mozilla should have made this accessible from the keyboard a long time ago.  I expect that is something they have heard about repeatedly over many years.  This isn't a trivial matter, especially since they just have to be different than e-mail programs usually are and show the subject line first.  So they use a different order, disliked by a lot of blind users, I don't know about sighted users, and they don't make it accessible.  You can change the order with JAWS but it's been a long time since I tried it and read about it.  I don't remember the details.  I do remember that you have to use the JAWS drag and drop function.
 
I don't know if there is a best Windows e-mail program.  If you are evaluating programs, you may want to try Windows Live Mail.  But if you have a lot of e-mail folders, Windows Live Mail doesn't have first letter navigation and Thunderbird has an attachment that allows you to use first letter navigation to move among folders.  If you do a lot of moving among folders, that may be a consideration.  Windows Live Mail does have a command, control I, that allows you to move to the default inbox from any folder.  There is no such command in Thunderbird.  If you don't do a lot of moving among folders and want to be able to return to the default inbox immediately, you may want that feature.
 
There is a program, Outlook Express Classic, which is similar to Outlook Express.  I'm not sure how accessible it is now but accessibility has been improving.  If you are interested and ask about it, some people have probably tried it and you have a reasonable chance to get more information here.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

Hi,
You need an addon for repositioning columns? Wow. Usually something like that would come as an option within the application itself (Explorer, OE etc). Considering how flexible and versatile Mozilla applications generally are, that surprises me to no end.
Would you say Thunderbird was the best client? If so then I’ll give it more than just the perfunctory glance. Like I say, it does seem the most accessible when it comes to finding and navigating controls. Also, how would I go about importing my WLM stuff over?
Cheers.
Damien.
 
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients
 

Hi Damien,

 

If you use Thunderbird, a lot of the extraneous stuff can be turned off under tools/options.  In addition, NVDA works much better with Thunderbird than does JAWS.  Also, there is an add on for Thunderbird and Firefox for NVDA that allows among other things, the re positioning of columns in Thunderbird.  This is very convenient for those of us who wish to have the Sender's name first rather than the default subject line first in the columns as they are read when you move up/down a list of received messages.

 

 


On 4/15/2018 10:12 AM, Damien Garwood wrote:
Hi there,
 
Ten minutes in the life of seemingly old fashioned Damien, using Windows 7 and Windows Live Mail:
* Check emails.
* Install Dropbox.
* Realise that it’s turned into a pile of sludgy sluggish inaccessible mess.
* Uninstall Dropbox.
* Attempt to check emails.
* Receive a message that WLDCore.dll is missing.
So in that ten minutes, the only significant thing was to install and uninstall Dropbox, leading me to think that Dropbox somehow corrupted it. I'll save that rant for my rants folder.
I then nonchalantly uninstall, and launch the Windows Live Essentials installer expecting to be able to repair it. Of course, it doesn’t budge. Only then, do I find out that WLM has been discontinued, seemingly with nothing to replace it for Windows 7 users. Another rant for my rants folder.
 
I wouldn’t be particularly bothered. I wouldn't say that WLM is the best client I've ever used. In fact, every client I've used up to now could do with some accessibility tips. Even so, despite its shortcomings, WLM was the next best thing to OE and so I’ve been using that for the past four or five years.
This puts me in a real dilemma. I’m only able to write this email now, thanks to System Restore (A feature I swore I would never use thanks to its abilities to mess things up). As a result, I highly feel that I need to get a replacement client, hopefully something a little less sporadic in its development and life/support cycles. However, I can’t find a basic, accessible client that:
1. Is free of unnecessary outright bloated clutter,
2. Is fully accessible, responsive and comprehensible, and
3. Is able to import WLM folders and messages.
 
Here are the three that I have heard apparently work well, and my experiences:
 
1. OEClassic
Since I liked Outlook Express, and since I have heard a lot about OEClassic on this list, I thought it would make sense to first try that one. However I was disappointed. When tabbing through the main window, I had no idea what was what (the controls seemed to be unlabelled or labelled incorrectly), and some even said “Unknown”. And that’s even before I touched any settings.
 
2. Pegasus
While Pegasus was the first email client I was ever introduced to, that was nearly 20 years ago, and using a different screen reader. Similar to OEClassic, I found several “Unknown” controls, not to mention the old rich-text-based help system used in the Windows 98 days.
 
3. Thunderbird
Thunderbird was the only option of the three to allow me to set up a mailbox before use, and even that was a nightmare, simply because it was determined to persuade me to use encrypted channels. Also, while it does seem to be the most accessible of the three in terms of navigation, it also seems full of unnecessary clutter (different tabs, toolbars, calendars and news feeds, half of which I’ll never use). Also can’t get my head around the fact that its window makes heavy use of HTML – I’m used to seeing a good old listbox, pressing enter on a message, and reading it.
 
Finally, WLM seems to be absent from import options of all three. I see frequent mention of Outlook Express, Outlook, Windows Mail, Thunderbird...But not Windows Live.
At this point, I've no idea what my next step is.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers.
Damien.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Rui Fontes
 

The Thunderbird addon can be found on:
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/addon/importexporttools/

Rui


Às 16:10 de 15/04/2018, Rui Fontes escreveu:

You have a Thunderbird addon to handle *.EML messages...
Rui
Às 15:12 de 15/04/2018, Damien Garwood escreveu:
Hi there,
Ten minutes in the life of seemingly old fashioned Damien, using Windows 7 and Windows Live Mail:
* Check emails.
* Install Dropbox.
* Realise that it’s turned into a pile of sludgy sluggish inaccessible mess.
* Uninstall Dropbox.
* Attempt to check emails.
* Receive a message that WLDCore.dll is missing.
So in that ten minutes, the only significant thing was to install and uninstall Dropbox, leading me to think that Dropbox somehow corrupted it. I'll save that rant for my rants folder.
I then nonchalantly uninstall, and launch the Windows Live Essentials installer expecting to be able to repair it. Of course, it doesn’t budge. Only then, do I find out that WLM has been discontinued, seemingly with nothing to replace it for Windows 7 users. Another rant for my rants folder.
I wouldn’t be particularly bothered. I wouldn't say that WLM is the best client I've ever used. In fact, every client I've used up to now could do with some accessibility tips. Even so, despite its shortcomings, WLM was the next best thing to OE and so I’ve been using that for the past four or five years.
This puts me in a real dilemma. I’m only able to write this email now, thanks to System Restore (A feature I swore I would never use thanks to its abilities to mess things up). As a result, I highly feel that I need to get a replacement client, hopefully something a little less sporadic in its development and life/support cycles. However, I can’t find a basic, accessible client that:
1. Is free of unnecessary outright bloated clutter,
2. Is fully accessible, responsive and comprehensible, and
3. Is able to import WLM folders and messages.
Here are the three that I have heard apparently work well, and my experiences:
1. OEClassic
Since I liked Outlook Express, and since I have heard a lot about OEClassic on this list, I thought it would make sense to first try that one. However I was disappointed. When tabbing through the main window, I had no idea what was what (the controls seemed to be unlabelled or labelled incorrectly), and some even said “Unknown”. And that’s even before I touched any settings.
2. Pegasus
While Pegasus was the first email client I was ever introduced to, that was nearly 20 years ago, and using a different screen reader. Similar to OEClassic, I found several “Unknown” controls, not to mention the old rich-text-based help system used in the Windows 98 days.
3. Thunderbird
Thunderbird was the only option of the three to allow me to set up a mailbox before use, and even that was a nightmare, simply because it was determined to persuade me to use encrypted channels. Also, while it does seem to be the most accessible of the three in terms of navigation, it also seems full of unnecessary clutter (different tabs, toolbars, calendars and news feeds, half of which I’ll never use). Also can’t get my head around the fact that its window makes heavy use of HTML – I’m used to seeing a good old listbox, pressing enter on a message, and reading it.
Finally, WLM seems to be absent from import options of all three. I see frequent mention of Outlook Express, Outlook, Windows Mail, Thunderbird...But not Windows Live.
At this point, I've no idea what my next step is.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers.
Damien.


Rui Fontes
 

Yes, *.EML is the message format of Outlook Express and WLM...

Rui


Às 16:13 de 15/04/2018, Damien Garwood escreveu:

Hi Rui,
I'm guessing *.eml is the WLM format? Never heard of that extension before.
Cheers.
Damien.
-----Original Message----- From: Rui Fontes
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 4:10 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients
You have a Thunderbird addon to handle *.EML messages...
Rui
Às 15:12 de 15/04/2018, Damien Garwood escreveu:
Hi there,
Ten minutes in the life of seemingly old fashioned Damien, using Windows 7 and Windows Live Mail:
* Check emails.
* Install Dropbox.
* Realise that it’s turned into a pile of sludgy sluggish inaccessible mess.
* Uninstall Dropbox.
* Attempt to check emails.
* Receive a message that WLDCore.dll is missing.
So in that ten minutes, the only significant thing was to install and uninstall Dropbox, leading me to think that Dropbox somehow corrupted it. I'll save that rant for my rants folder.
I then nonchalantly uninstall, and launch the Windows Live Essentials installer expecting to be able to repair it. Of course, it doesn’t budge. Only then, do I find out that WLM has been discontinued, seemingly with nothing to replace it for Windows 7 users. Another rant for my rants folder.
I wouldn’t be particularly bothered. I wouldn't say that WLM is the best client I've ever used. In fact, every client I've used up to now could do with some accessibility tips. Even so, despite its shortcomings, WLM was the next best thing to OE and so I’ve been using that for the past four or five years.
This puts me in a real dilemma. I’m only able to write this email now, thanks to System Restore (A feature I swore I would never use thanks to its abilities to mess things up). As a result, I highly feel that I need to get a replacement client, hopefully something a little less sporadic in its development and life/support cycles. However, I can’t find a basic, accessible client that:
1. Is free of unnecessary outright bloated clutter,
2. Is fully accessible, responsive and comprehensible, and
3. Is able to import WLM folders and messages.
Here are the three that I have heard apparently work well, and my experiences:
1. OEClassic
Since I liked Outlook Express, and since I have heard a lot about OEClassic on this list, I thought it would make sense to first try that one. However I was disappointed. When tabbing through the main window, I had no idea what was what (the controls seemed to be unlabelled or labelled incorrectly), and some even said “Unknown”. And that’s even before I touched any settings.
2. Pegasus
While Pegasus was the first email client I was ever introduced to, that was nearly 20 years ago, and using a different screen reader. Similar to OEClassic, I found several “Unknown” controls, not to mention the old rich-text-based help system used in the Windows 98 days.
3. Thunderbird
Thunderbird was the only option of the three to allow me to set up a mailbox before use, and even that was a nightmare, simply because it was determined to persuade me to use encrypted channels. Also, while it does seem to be the most accessible of the three in terms of navigation, it also seems full of unnecessary clutter (different tabs, toolbars, calendars and news feeds, half of which I’ll never use). Also can’t get my head around the fact that its window makes heavy use of HTML – I’m used to seeing a good old listbox, pressing enter on a message, and reading it.
Finally, WLM seems to be absent from import options of all three. I see frequent mention of Outlook Express, Outlook, Windows Mail, Thunderbird...But not Windows Live.
At this point, I've no idea what my next step is.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers.
Damien.
.


Damien Garwood <damien@...>
 

Hi,
OEClassic was one of the three clients that I tried. I am glad to hear that accessibility is improving, hopefully that will become a viable permanent option one day.
Cheers.
Damien.
 

From: Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients
 
Mozilla should have made this accessible from the keyboard a long time ago.  I expect that is something they have heard about repeatedly over many years.  This isn't a trivial matter, especially since they just have to be different than e-mail programs usually are and show the subject line first.  So they use a different order, disliked by a lot of blind users, I don't know about sighted users, and they don't make it accessible.  You can change the order with JAWS but it's been a long time since I tried it and read about it.  I don't remember the details.  I do remember that you have to use the JAWS drag and drop function.
 
I don't know if there is a best Windows e-mail program.  If you are evaluating programs, you may want to try Windows Live Mail.  But if you have a lot of e-mail folders, Windows Live Mail doesn't have first letter navigation and Thunderbird has an attachment that allows you to use first letter navigation to move among folders.  If you do a lot of moving among folders, that may be a consideration.  Windows Live Mail does have a command, control I, that allows you to move to the default inbox from any folder.  There is no such command in Thunderbird.  If you don't do a lot of moving among folders and want to be able to return to the default inbox immediately, you may want that feature.
 
There is a program, Outlook Express Classic, which is similar to Outlook Express.  I'm not sure how accessible it is now but accessibility has been improving.  If you are interested and ask about it, some people have probably tried it and you have a reasonable chance to get more information here.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients
 
Hi,
You need an addon for repositioning columns? Wow. Usually something like that would come as an option within the application itself (Explorer, OE etc). Considering how flexible and versatile Mozilla applications generally are, that surprises me to no end.
Would you say Thunderbird was the best client? If so then I’ll give it more than just the perfunctory glance. Like I say, it does seem the most accessible when it comes to finding and navigating controls. Also, how would I go about importing my WLM stuff over?
Cheers.
Damien.
 
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients
 

Hi Damien,

 

If you use Thunderbird, a lot of the extraneous stuff can be turned off under tools/options.  In addition, NVDA works much better with Thunderbird than does JAWS.  Also, there is an add on for Thunderbird and Firefox for NVDA that allows among other things, the re positioning of columns in Thunderbird.  This is very convenient for those of us who wish to have the Sender's name first rather than the default subject line first in the columns as they are read when you move up/down a list of received messages.

 

 


On 4/15/2018 10:12 AM, Damien Garwood wrote:
Hi there,
 
Ten minutes in the life of seemingly old fashioned Damien, using Windows 7 and Windows Live Mail:
* Check emails.
* Install Dropbox.
* Realise that it’s turned into a pile of sludgy sluggish inaccessible mess.
* Uninstall Dropbox.
* Attempt to check emails.
* Receive a message that WLDCore.dll is missing.
So in that ten minutes, the only significant thing was to install and uninstall Dropbox, leading me to think that Dropbox somehow corrupted it. I'll save that rant for my rants folder.
I then nonchalantly uninstall, and launch the Windows Live Essentials installer expecting to be able to repair it. Of course, it doesn’t budge. Only then, do I find out that WLM has been discontinued, seemingly with nothing to replace it for Windows 7 users. Another rant for my rants folder.
 
I wouldn’t be particularly bothered. I wouldn't say that WLM is the best client I've ever used. In fact, every client I've used up to now could do with some accessibility tips. Even so, despite its shortcomings, WLM was the next best thing to OE and so I’ve been using that for the past four or five years.
This puts me in a real dilemma. I’m only able to write this email now, thanks to System Restore (A feature I swore I would never use thanks to its abilities to mess things up). As a result, I highly feel that I need to get a replacement client, hopefully something a little less sporadic in its development and life/support cycles. However, I can’t find a basic, accessible client that:
1. Is free of unnecessary outright bloated clutter,
2. Is fully accessible, responsive and comprehensible, and
3. Is able to import WLM folders and messages.
 
Here are the three that I have heard apparently work well, and my experiences:
 
1. OEClassic
Since I liked Outlook Express, and since I have heard a lot about OEClassic on this list, I thought it would make sense to first try that one. However I was disappointed. When tabbing through the main window, I had no idea what was what (the controls seemed to be unlabelled or labelled incorrectly), and some even said “Unknown”. And that’s even before I touched any settings.
 
2. Pegasus
While Pegasus was the first email client I was ever introduced to, that was nearly 20 years ago, and using a different screen reader. Similar to OEClassic, I found several “Unknown” controls, not to mention the old rich-text-based help system used in the Windows 98 days.
 
3. Thunderbird
Thunderbird was the only option of the three to allow me to set up a mailbox before use, and even that was a nightmare, simply because it was determined to persuade me to use encrypted channels. Also, while it does seem to be the most accessible of the three in terms of navigation, it also seems full of unnecessary clutter (different tabs, toolbars, calendars and news feeds, half of which I’ll never use). Also can’t get my head around the fact that its window makes heavy use of HTML – I’m used to seeing a good old listbox, pressing enter on a message, and reading it.
 
Finally, WLM seems to be absent from import options of all three. I see frequent mention of Outlook Express, Outlook, Windows Mail, Thunderbird...But not Windows Live.
At this point, I've no idea what my next step is.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers.
Damien.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Gene
 

Have you tried Windows Live Mail?  It is not bloated to a bothersome extent and it is not slow.  It has features like a calendar but they aren't intrusive and you can use the program and never come across them unless you intentionally look for them. 
 
I haven't used thunderbird enough to know if it is slow in general.  I tried it on a machine that is already an old slow machine and it was annoyingly slow at opening messages but I don't know how it is on a fast machine.  However, you are the second person I've seen complain of slowness in the last number of months so that's a little more evidence for it being slow.  But I don't draw conclusions about performance on just two reports.  Five or ten would be much more conclusive since programs can perform differently on different machines even if the machines provide good results with programs in general.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

Yeah, I don't like any of the mail clients either. Thunderbird is the best, but it is laggy, extremely laggy, bloated, etc.

On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 10:40 AM, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...> wrote:

Hi Damien,


If you use Thunderbird, a lot of the extraneous stuff can be turned off under tools/options.  In addition, NVDA works much better with Thunderbird than does JAWS.  Also, there is an add on for Thunderbird and Firefox for NVDA that allows among other things, the re positioning of columns in Thunderbird.  This is very convenient for those of us who wish to have the Sender's name first rather than the default subject line first in the columns as they are read when you move up/down a list of received messages.




On 4/15/2018 10:12 AM, Damien Garwood wrote:
Hi there,
 
Ten minutes in the life of seemingly old fashioned Damien, using Windows 7 and Windows Live Mail:
* Check emails.
* Install Dropbox.
* Realise that it’s turned into a pile of sludgy sluggish inaccessible mess.
* Uninstall Dropbox.
* Attempt to check emails.
* Receive a message that WLDCore.dll is missing.
So in that ten minutes, the only significant thing was to install and uninstall Dropbox, leading me to think that Dropbox somehow corrupted it. I'll save that rant for my rants folder.
I then nonchalantly uninstall, and launch the Windows Live Essentials installer expecting to be able to repair it. Of course, it doesn’t budge. Only then, do I find out that WLM has been discontinued, seemingly with nothing to replace it for Windows 7 users. Another rant for my rants folder.
 
I wouldn’t be particularly bothered. I wouldn't say that WLM is the best client I've ever used. In fact, every client I've used up to now could do with some accessibility tips. Even so, despite its shortcomings, WLM was the next best thing to OE and so I’ve been using that for the past four or five years.
This puts me in a real dilemma. I’m only able to write this email now, thanks to System Restore (A feature I swore I would never use thanks to its abilities to mess things up). As a result, I highly feel that I need to get a replacement client, hopefully something a little less sporadic in its development and life/support cycles. However, I can’t find a basic, accessible client that:
1. Is free of unnecessary outright bloated clutter,
2. Is fully accessible, responsive and comprehensible, and
3. Is able to import WLM folders and messages.
 
Here are the three that I have heard apparently work well, and my experiences:
 
1. OEClassic
Since I liked Outlook Express, and since I have heard a lot about OEClassic on this list, I thought it would make sense to first try that one. However I was disappointed. When tabbing through the main window, I had no idea what was what (the controls seemed to be unlabelled or labelled incorrectly), and some even said “Unknown”. And that’s even before I touched any settings.
 
2. Pegasus
While Pegasus was the first email client I was ever introduced to, that was nearly 20 years ago, and using a different screen reader. Similar to OEClassic, I found several “Unknown” controls, not to mention the old rich-text-based help system used in the Windows 98 days.
 
3. Thunderbird
Thunderbird was the only option of the three to allow me to set up a mailbox before use, and even that was a nightmare, simply because it was determined to persuade me to use encrypted channels. Also, while it does seem to be the most accessible of the three in terms of navigation, it also seems full of unnecessary clutter (different tabs, toolbars, calendars and news feeds, half of which I’ll never use). Also can’t get my head around the fact that its window makes heavy use of HTML – I’m used to seeing a good old listbox, pressing enter on a message, and reading it.
 
Finally, WLM seems to be absent from import options of all three. I see frequent mention of Outlook Express, Outlook, Windows Mail, Thunderbird...But not Windows Live.
At this point, I've no idea what my next step is.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers.
Damien.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"



 

If anyone wants the full standalone installer for Windows Essentials 2012 (which includes WLM 2012) I snagged it from the Microsoft about 1 week before it was pulled.  You can download it from my Google Drive:  Windows Essentials 2012 Installer.  (The file is in ZIP format, so you'll have to unzip it after downloading).

--
Brian  Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1709, Build 16299  (dot level on request - it changes too often to keep in signature)

     The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.  But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.

            Niels Bohr

 

 


Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
 

I’m only gonna make one comment here. This isn’t in the least meant to be rude, but I don’t want to give any false impressions.

 

What makes you think aside from most likely incredibly bad timing, that Dropbox had anything to do with the corruption of that DLL? Last I knew, that was not a dll used in any! form nor shape whatsoever by Dropbox.

 

I really stand by my theory that this was incredibly terrible timing/coencidental!

 

Though I understand your take entirely on Thunderbird, and oh, by the way, totally 100% respect your opinion, I did want to make it also clear that most all the things you described as quote unquote, clutter, can be completely hidden/disabled through the view menu up in your standard, mind you, nonribbon menu bar.

 

Again, please don’t take my tone out of context here, as I can easily see how this message would come across maybe a bit rudely. I swear that isn’t my intentions. I’m simply just trying to make a point here. I do understand your predicament though. – I’m not sure I totally agree with it, but, I do understand it.

 

Have a great rest of your Sunday.

 

Chris.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Damien Garwood
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 11:12 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

 

Hi,

I would be interested to have the menu version as well, if you have it. I’ve never quite got my head around ribbons and so have never been able to really look into what it can do.

Just goes to show that what you learned in IT classes at school 20 years ago soon turns out to be completely pointless and thus a total waste of time and energy. But hey ho. Such is life. Everything must experience change, I guess.

Cheers.
Damien.

 

From: Gene

Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 4:05 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

 

It may be possible that installing Drop Box caused this problem but it's unlikely.  You can try the following:

You can reinstall Windows Live Mail but you will need a full installer since Microsoft no longer provides one.  I don't know if you can just run the installer or if you have to remove Windows Live Mail first.  You can try either way you want.  I'll assume you are using the ribbon version and I'll send you a download link for that.  If you are using the older menu version, let us know. 

 

Instead of reinstalling the program, you may wish to run a system restore point from before the problem started first, and see if that corrects it. 

 

The download link is:

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 9:12 AM

Subject: [nvda] Email clients

 

Hi there,

 

Ten minutes in the life of seemingly old fashioned Damien, using Windows 7 and Windows Live Mail:

* Check emails.

* Install Dropbox.

* Realise that it’s turned into a pile of sludgy sluggish inaccessible mess.

* Uninstall Dropbox.

* Attempt to check emails.

* Receive a message that WLDCore.dll is missing.

So in that ten minutes, the only significant thing was to install and uninstall Dropbox, leading me to think that Dropbox somehow corrupted it. I'll save that rant for my rants folder.

I then nonchalantly uninstall, and launch the Windows Live Essentials installer expecting to be able to repair it. Of course, it doesn’t budge. Only then, do I find out that WLM has been discontinued, seemingly with nothing to replace it for Windows 7 users. Another rant for my rants folder.

 

I wouldn’t be particularly bothered. I wouldn't say that WLM is the best client I've ever used. In fact, every client I've used up to now could do with some accessibility tips. Even so, despite its shortcomings, WLM was the next best thing to OE and so I’ve been using that for the past four or five years.

This puts me in a real dilemma. I’m only able to write this email now, thanks to System Restore (A feature I swore I would never use thanks to its abilities to mess things up). As a result, I highly feel that I need to get a replacement client, hopefully something a little less sporadic in its development and life/support cycles. However, I can’t find a basic, accessible client that:

1. Is free of unnecessary outright bloated clutter,

2. Is fully accessible, responsive and comprehensible, and

3. Is able to import WLM folders and messages.

 

Here are the three that I have heard apparently work well, and my experiences:

 

1. OEClassic

Since I liked Outlook Express, and since I have heard a lot about OEClassic on this list, I thought it would make sense to first try that one. However I was disappointed. When tabbing through the main window, I had no idea what was what (the controls seemed to be unlabelled or labelled incorrectly), and some even said “Unknown”. And that’s even before I touched any settings.

 

2. Pegasus

While Pegasus was the first email client I was ever introduced to, that was nearly 20 years ago, and using a different screen reader. Similar to OEClassic, I found several “Unknown” controls, not to mention the old rich-text-based help system used in the Windows 98 days.

 

3. Thunderbird

Thunderbird was the only option of the three to allow me to set up a mailbox before use, and even that was a nightmare, simply because it was determined to persuade me to use encrypted channels. Also, while it does seem to be the most accessible of the three in terms of navigation, it also seems full of unnecessary clutter (different tabs, toolbars, calendars and news feeds, half of which I’ll never use). Also can’t get my head around the fact that its window makes heavy use of HTML – I’m used to seeing a good old listbox, pressing enter on a message, and reading it.

 

Finally, WLM seems to be absent from import options of all three. I see frequent mention of Outlook Express, Outlook, Windows Mail, Thunderbird...But not Windows Live.

At this point, I've no idea what my next step is.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers.
Damien.


Gene
 

If the ribbon version was previously on the machine, you can't install the menu version unless you remove all traces of the ribbon version.  I'll send you the link to the menu version if you wish but I believe you may have to remove something from the registry to get it to install.  You have to use one or the other, you can't have both on the same machine.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 10:12 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

Hi,
I would be interested to have the menu version as well, if you have it. I’ve never quite got my head around ribbons and so have never been able to really look into what it can do.
Just goes to show that what you learned in IT classes at school 20 years ago soon turns out to be completely pointless and thus a total waste of time and energy. But hey ho. Such is life. Everything must experience change, I guess.
Cheers.
Damien.
 
From: Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients
 
It may be possible that installing Drop Box caused this problem but it's unlikely.  You can try the following:
You can reinstall Windows Live Mail but you will need a full installer since Microsoft no longer provides one.  I don't know if you can just run the installer or if you have to remove Windows Live Mail first.  You can try either way you want.  I'll assume you are using the ribbon version and I'll send you a download link for that.  If you are using the older menu version, let us know. 
 
Instead of reinstalling the program, you may wish to run a system restore point from before the problem started first, and see if that corrects it. 
 
The download link is:
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 9:12 AM
Subject: [nvda] Email clients
 
Hi there,
 
Ten minutes in the life of seemingly old fashioned Damien, using Windows 7 and Windows Live Mail:
* Check emails.
* Install Dropbox.
* Realise that it’s turned into a pile of sludgy sluggish inaccessible mess.
* Uninstall Dropbox.
* Attempt to check emails.
* Receive a message that WLDCore.dll is missing.
So in that ten minutes, the only significant thing was to install and uninstall Dropbox, leading me to think that Dropbox somehow corrupted it. I'll save that rant for my rants folder.
I then nonchalantly uninstall, and launch the Windows Live Essentials installer expecting to be able to repair it. Of course, it doesn’t budge. Only then, do I find out that WLM has been discontinued, seemingly with nothing to replace it for Windows 7 users. Another rant for my rants folder.
 
I wouldn’t be particularly bothered. I wouldn't say that WLM is the best client I've ever used. In fact, every client I've used up to now could do with some accessibility tips. Even so, despite its shortcomings, WLM was the next best thing to OE and so I’ve been using that for the past four or five years.
This puts me in a real dilemma. I’m only able to write this email now, thanks to System Restore (A feature I swore I would never use thanks to its abilities to mess things up). As a result, I highly feel that I need to get a replacement client, hopefully something a little less sporadic in its development and life/support cycles. However, I can’t find a basic, accessible client that:
1. Is free of unnecessary outright bloated clutter,
2. Is fully accessible, responsive and comprehensible, and
3. Is able to import WLM folders and messages.
 
Here are the three that I have heard apparently work well, and my experiences:
 
1. OEClassic
Since I liked Outlook Express, and since I have heard a lot about OEClassic on this list, I thought it would make sense to first try that one. However I was disappointed. When tabbing through the main window, I had no idea what was what (the controls seemed to be unlabelled or labelled incorrectly), and some even said “Unknown”. And that’s even before I touched any settings.
 
2. Pegasus
While Pegasus was the first email client I was ever introduced to, that was nearly 20 years ago, and using a different screen reader. Similar to OEClassic, I found several “Unknown” controls, not to mention the old rich-text-based help system used in the Windows 98 days.
 
3. Thunderbird
Thunderbird was the only option of the three to allow me to set up a mailbox before use, and even that was a nightmare, simply because it was determined to persuade me to use encrypted channels. Also, while it does seem to be the most accessible of the three in terms of navigation, it also seems full of unnecessary clutter (different tabs, toolbars, calendars and news feeds, half of which I’ll never use). Also can’t get my head around the fact that its window makes heavy use of HTML – I’m used to seeing a good old listbox, pressing enter on a message, and reading it.
 
Finally, WLM seems to be absent from import options of all three. I see frequent mention of Outlook Express, Outlook, Windows Mail, Thunderbird...But not Windows Live.
At this point, I've no idea what my next step is.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers.
Damien.


 

Thunderbird has not been, in my experience, slow.  It is also configurable "out the wazoo" so you can eliminate seeing the vast majority of the defaults you don't want to see if you look up how to turn them off.  When I've been installing Thunderbird for my blind and VI clients I do not set up the calendar feature, Lightning, unless they say they actually use an electronic calendar.

Also, if at all possible, when setting up e-mail accounts these days, one should always use IMAP access.  This eliminates the need to import messages entirely when a new e-mail client is set up, since that happens all on its own after the client syncs with the server.  

It's also worth considering using your e-mail provider's webmail interface, too.
--
Brian  Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1709, Build 16299  (dot level on request - it changes too often to keep in signature)

     The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.  But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.

            Niels Bohr

 

 


Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
 

Hey Bryan,

 

Regarding the TB calender, have you found it to be accessible with NVDA or any other screen reader like JAWS? Just curious.

 

Chris.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 11:30 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

 

Thunderbird has not been, in my experience, slow.  It is also configurable "out the wazoo" so you can eliminate seeing the vast majority of the defaults you don't want to see if you look up how to turn them off.  When I've been installing Thunderbird for my blind and VI clients I do not set up the calendar feature, Lightning, unless they say they actually use an electronic calendar.

Also, if at all possible, when setting up e-mail accounts these days, one should always use IMAP access.  This eliminates the need to import messages entirely when a new e-mail client is set up, since that happens all on its own after the client syncs with the server.  

It's also worth considering using your e-mail provider's webmail interface, too.
--
Brian  Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1709, Build 16299  (dot level on request - it changes too often to keep in signature)

     The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.  But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.

            Niels Bohr

 

 


Damien Garwood <damien@...>
 

Hi Chris,
Honestly, I was pretty surprised by it too, but I can confirm that installing Dropbox does cause an issue. You’re quite right though, the issue isn’t actually a corrupted DLL.
Had I not thought that something had gone terribly wrong, and had I actually thought about performing a simple reboot, we probably wouldn’t be discussing this. I noticed, during the Dropbox installation, that Windows made the logoff/logon sounds, and it is after that, that the issue occurs.
Whatever is searching for DLL’s obviously couldn’t find it, even though, having previously found the path where the file should be located, it was still quite obviously there.
Strange, but true.
It’s a good thing though. I had no idea that WLM had been discontinued, and so had any necessary files somehow become corrupted in the future, I would likely be in a worse fix than I am now, and so it has caused me to try and eliminate that threat now, while I can.
Like I say. I’m not the biggest WLM fan, but that is because of ribbons. I hate them. So ribbonless menus would be heaven for me.
I did look in the view menu of Thunderbird, and couldn’t see any options to disable the clutter. As for the calendar, that installed automatically, it only gave me the option to disable/uninstall it the second time I started Thunderbird.
Cheers.
Damien.
 

Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 4:26 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients
 

I’m only gonna make one comment here. This isn’t in the least meant to be rude, but I don’t want to give any false impressions.

 

What makes you think aside from most likely incredibly bad timing, that Dropbox had anything to do with the corruption of that DLL? Last I knew, that was not a dll used in any! form nor shape whatsoever by Dropbox.

 

I really stand by my theory that this was incredibly terrible timing/coencidental!

 

Though I understand your take entirely on Thunderbird, and oh, by the way, totally 100% respect your opinion, I did want to make it also clear that most all the things you described as quote unquote, clutter, can be completely hidden/disabled through the view menu up in your standard, mind you, nonribbon menu bar.

 

Again, please don’t take my tone out of context here, as I can easily see how this message would come across maybe a bit rudely. I swear that isn’t my intentions. I’m simply just trying to make a point here. I do understand your predicament though. – I’m not sure I totally agree with it, but, I do understand it.

 

Have a great rest of your Sunday.

 

Chris.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Damien Garwood
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 11:12 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

 

Hi,

I would be interested to have the menu version as well, if you have it. I’ve never quite got my head around ribbons and so have never been able to really look into what it can do.

Just goes to show that what you learned in IT classes at school 20 years ago soon turns out to be completely pointless and thus a total waste of time and energy. But hey ho. Such is life. Everything must experience change, I guess.

Cheers.
Damien.

 

From: Gene

Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 4:05 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

 

It may be possible that installing Drop Box caused this problem but it's unlikely.  You can try the following:

You can reinstall Windows Live Mail but you will need a full installer since Microsoft no longer provides one.  I don't know if you can just run the installer or if you have to remove Windows Live Mail first.  You can try either way you want.  I'll assume you are using the ribbon version and I'll send you a download link for that.  If you are using the older menu version, let us know. 

 

Instead of reinstalling the program, you may wish to run a system restore point from before the problem started first, and see if that corrects it. 

 

The download link is:

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 9:12 AM

Subject: [nvda] Email clients

 

Hi there,

 

Ten minutes in the life of seemingly old fashioned Damien, using Windows 7 and Windows Live Mail:

* Check emails.

* Install Dropbox.

* Realise that it’s turned into a pile of sludgy sluggish inaccessible mess.

* Uninstall Dropbox.

* Attempt to check emails.

* Receive a message that WLDCore.dll is missing.

So in that ten minutes, the only significant thing was to install and uninstall Dropbox, leading me to think that Dropbox somehow corrupted it. I'll save that rant for my rants folder.

I then nonchalantly uninstall, and launch the Windows Live Essentials installer expecting to be able to repair it. Of course, it doesn’t budge. Only then, do I find out that WLM has been discontinued, seemingly with nothing to replace it for Windows 7 users. Another rant for my rants folder.

 

I wouldn’t be particularly bothered. I wouldn't say that WLM is the best client I've ever used. In fact, every client I've used up to now could do with some accessibility tips. Even so, despite its shortcomings, WLM was the next best thing to OE and so I’ve been using that for the past four or five years.

This puts me in a real dilemma. I’m only able to write this email now, thanks to System Restore (A feature I swore I would never use thanks to its abilities to mess things up). As a result, I highly feel that I need to get a replacement client, hopefully something a little less sporadic in its development and life/support cycles. However, I can’t find a basic, accessible client that:

1. Is free of unnecessary outright bloated clutter,

2. Is fully accessible, responsive and comprehensible, and

3. Is able to import WLM folders and messages.

 

Here are the three that I have heard apparently work well, and my experiences:

 

1. OEClassic

Since I liked Outlook Express, and since I have heard a lot about OEClassic on this list, I thought it would make sense to first try that one. However I was disappointed. When tabbing through the main window, I had no idea what was what (the controls seemed to be unlabelled or labelled incorrectly), and some even said “Unknown”. And that’s even before I touched any settings.

 

2. Pegasus

While Pegasus was the first email client I was ever introduced to, that was nearly 20 years ago, and using a different screen reader. Similar to OEClassic, I found several “Unknown” controls, not to mention the old rich-text-based help system used in the Windows 98 days.

 

3. Thunderbird

Thunderbird was the only option of the three to allow me to set up a mailbox before use, and even that was a nightmare, simply because it was determined to persuade me to use encrypted channels. Also, while it does seem to be the most accessible of the three in terms of navigation, it also seems full of unnecessary clutter (different tabs, toolbars, calendars and news feeds, half of which I’ll never use). Also can’t get my head around the fact that its window makes heavy use of HTML – I’m used to seeing a good old listbox, pressing enter on a message, and reading it.

 

Finally, WLM seems to be absent from import options of all three. I see frequent mention of Outlook Express, Outlook, Windows Mail, Thunderbird...But not Windows Live.

At this point, I've no idea what my next step is.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers.
Damien.


Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
 

Honestly, the only issue with TB that I’ve seen is the annoying as heck message telling me unresponsive script call. And, I only see that when deleting multiple messages at one given time in a batch. Now, if that issue’s been fixed, I’ll gladly stop usingt Outlook 2016, and go back, as TB by far and away has been my favorite.

 

Chris.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 11:25 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

 

Have you tried Windows Live Mail?  It is not bloated to a bothersome extent and it is not slow.  It has features like a calendar but they aren't intrusive and you can use the program and never come across them unless you intentionally look for them. 

 

I haven't used thunderbird enough to know if it is slow in general.  I tried it on a machine that is already an old slow machine and it was annoyingly slow at opening messages but I don't know how it is on a fast machine.  However, you are the second person I've seen complain of slowness in the last number of months so that's a little more evidence for it being slow.  But I don't draw conclusions about performance on just two reports.  Five or ten would be much more conclusive since programs can perform differently on different machines even if the machines provide good results with programs in general.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

 

Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 9:58 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

 

Yeah, I don't like any of the mail clients either. Thunderbird is the best, but it is laggy, extremely laggy, bloated, etc.

 

On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 10:40 AM, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...> wrote:

Hi Damien,

 

If you use Thunderbird, a lot of the extraneous stuff can be turned off under tools/options.  In addition, NVDA works much better with Thunderbird than does JAWS.  Also, there is an add on for Thunderbird and Firefox for NVDA that allows among other things, the re positioning of columns in Thunderbird.  This is very convenient for those of us who wish to have the Sender's name first rather than the default subject line first in the columns as they are read when you move up/down a list of received messages.

 

 

 

On 4/15/2018 10:12 AM, Damien Garwood wrote:

Hi there,

 

Ten minutes in the life of seemingly old fashioned Damien, using Windows 7 and Windows Live Mail:

* Check emails.

* Install Dropbox.

* Realise that it’s turned into a pile of sludgy sluggish inaccessible mess.

* Uninstall Dropbox.

* Attempt to check emails.

* Receive a message that WLDCore.dll is missing.

So in that ten minutes, the only significant thing was to install and uninstall Dropbox, leading me to think that Dropbox somehow corrupted it. I'll save that rant for my rants folder.

I then nonchalantly uninstall, and launch the Windows Live Essentials installer expecting to be able to repair it. Of course, it doesn’t budge. Only then, do I find out that WLM has been discontinued, seemingly with nothing to replace it for Windows 7 users. Another rant for my rants folder.

 

I wouldn’t be particularly bothered. I wouldn't say that WLM is the best client I've ever used. In fact, every client I've used up to now could do with some accessibility tips. Even so, despite its shortcomings, WLM was the next best thing to OE and so I’ve been using that for the past four or five years.

This puts me in a real dilemma. I’m only able to write this email now, thanks to System Restore (A feature I swore I would never use thanks to its abilities to mess things up). As a result, I highly feel that I need to get a replacement client, hopefully something a little less sporadic in its development and life/support cycles. However, I can’t find a basic, accessible client that:

1. Is free of unnecessary outright bloated clutter,

2. Is fully accessible, responsive and comprehensible, and

3. Is able to import WLM folders and messages.

 

Here are the three that I have heard apparently work well, and my experiences:

 

1. OEClassic

Since I liked Outlook Express, and since I have heard a lot about OEClassic on this list, I thought it would make sense to first try that one. However I was disappointed. When tabbing through the main window, I had no idea what was what (the controls seemed to be unlabelled or labelled incorrectly), and some even said “Unknown”. And that’s even before I touched any settings.

 

2. Pegasus

While Pegasus was the first email client I was ever introduced to, that was nearly 20 years ago, and using a different screen reader. Similar to OEClassic, I found several “Unknown” controls, not to mention the old rich-text-based help system used in the Windows 98 days.

 

3. Thunderbird

Thunderbird was the only option of the three to allow me to set up a mailbox before use, and even that was a nightmare, simply because it was determined to persuade me to use encrypted channels. Also, while it does seem to be the most accessible of the three in terms of navigation, it also seems full of unnecessary clutter (different tabs, toolbars, calendars and news feeds, half of which I’ll never use). Also can’t get my head around the fact that its window makes heavy use of HTML – I’m used to seeing a good old listbox, pressing enter on a message, and reading it.

 

Finally, WLM seems to be absent from import options of all three. I see frequent mention of Outlook Express, Outlook, Windows Mail, Thunderbird...But not Windows Live.

At this point, I've no idea what my next step is.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers.
Damien.

 

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"