Have I found an NVDA bug?


 

Hello All,

          I am leaving the topic intentionally broad because I hope this thread might become a repository for "possible bug" identification before doing a formal report.

          When I hit WinKey and then type "Command Prompt" the search results show the Command Prompt desktop app as the first returned result and already selected.  Were I to hit enter at that moment a Command Prompt would open, but that's not what is wanted since the window needs to be run elevated as administrator.  If I hit the SHIFT+F10/Applications/Context Menu key rather than enter I am immediately presented with a 4-item context menu, which has no default focus on any item, but the fact that it is there is not announced so unless you can see it you'd have no way of knowing.  If you down arrow once to get to the first item NVDA begins announcing as usual.

          I am presuming that the lack of some announcement regarding the actual presentation of a context menu is a bug, but I want to be sure about that before reporting it, and to ask advice from those who've done this many times how to categorize it on github if it is, indeed, a bug.
--
Brian

I worry a lot. . . I worry that no matter how cynical you become it's never enough to keep up.

         ~ Trudy, in Jane Wagner's "Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe"

    



 

Hi Brian,

This is the case for other context menus except some that do announce first item (the latter is the case for context menus shown in the midst of composing a message in Outlook 2013).

If this is specific to Windows 10 (as I was able to confirm this), I’ll look into this for WinTenApps 16.07.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2016 11:38 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Have I found an NVDA bug?

 

Hello All,

          I am leaving the topic intentionally broad because I hope this thread might become a repository for "possible bug" identification before doing a formal report.

          When I hit WinKey and then type "Command Prompt" the search results show the Command Prompt desktop app as the first returned result and already selected.  Were I to hit enter at that moment a Command Prompt would open, but that's not what is wanted since the window needs to be run elevated as administrator.  If I hit the SHIFT+F10/Applications/Context Menu key rather than enter I am immediately presented with a 4-item context menu, which has no default focus on any item, but the fact that it is there is not announced so unless you can see it you'd have no way of knowing.  If you down arrow once to get to the first item NVDA begins announcing as usual.

          I am presuming that the lack of some announcement regarding the actual presentation of a context menu is a bug, but I want to be sure about that before reporting it, and to ask advice from those who've done this many times how to categorize it on github if it is, indeed, a bug.
--
Brian

I worry a lot. . . I worry that no matter how cynical you become it's never enough to keep up.

         ~ Trudy, in Jane Wagner's "Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe"

    

 


 

Joseph,

           Yes, this is under Windows 10 and using the latest update of NVDA.  I really appreciate your having looked into this and so promptly!!

           I ask the following not to be picky or nasty, but for clarity's sake on my end:  Why would this be a behavior that is addressed by an Add-On?  [And don't get me wrong, I'm grateful if it is addressed there as well.]  I would presume that if a context menu appears, and no item is selected in that context (no pun intended), that any screen reader should announce something like, "Context menu containing X items," or just simply, "Context menu presented," so that the user would know that they could begin traversing it with the arrow keys.

            If this is not a Windows 10 bug, and it's likely that this sort of context menu presentation might be prevalent, if not 100% consistent, it would make sense for screen readers to handle it gracefully in their native code.

Brian
--
Brian

I worry a lot. . . I worry that no matter how cynical you become it's never enough to keep up.

         ~ Trudy, in Jane Wagner's "Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe"

    



 

Hi Brian,

Announcing number of items: it’ll take some time to traverse through the context menu, writing down items that are selectable (excluding items with certain states).

In case of Windows 10 Start context menu: Yet another UIA bug/assumption: UI Automation says it’s a list when it clearly isn’t. Thankfully, it has a unique UIA Automation ID, so I can do some further research into what can be done about this weird UIA server implementation. I’d rather put this fix in an add-on for now to let people try it safely, and then put this into core.

For resident programmers: when you are dealing with Windows 10, you need to note several things:

·         Universal apps and many parts of Start menu are UIA universes.

·         Microsoft is known for not following established specifications, and Mick Curran, Jamie Teh, I and other developers are quite unhappy about it. For instance, certain dialogs are clearly dialogs contrary to UIA which reports them as windows (one of them is the new style UAC dialog present in Windows 10 Anniversary Update, for which I wrote a routine to handle it and is currently lined up as a pull request).

·         When you support Edge controls, you are opening up possibilities for certain controls, as they are powered by EdgeHTML.

·         We cannot add app modules for universal apps to NVDA Core due to ever-changing nature of software thanks to introduction of software as a service (it works, it breaks the next day, a fix is provided from NVDA devs, app developers fixes it from their side a few weeks later). Hence, it is better to provide app modules for such apps as add-ons unless app developers are willing to test their apps for accessibility. As noted earlier, these apps are UIA universes, so familiarity with certain UIA concepts is a must, and traditional methods of weeding out an object (obj.windowClassName) will not work because they have the same class name (you need to probe UIA-specific attributes such as automation ID, UIA class name, framework ID and so on). A particular issue was when browse mode for Edge broke in one of the earlier Redstone Insider builds – turns out MS has changed the framework ID for Edge, and it took Mick a few days to cook up a fix for it. I’ll talk about UIA issues during one of the sessions for app module creation course when I talk about overlay classes.

·         A few days ago, I sent an announcement saying that a try build for Redstone builds is ready for public testing. I did this for an important reason: continuous refinements and responses. That is, the traditional method of waiting a few weeks to get a problem fixed will not work anymore in the new software as a service model, and I’m afraid all screen readers are not prepared for it. It’ll get more interesting once Microsoft kicks off Redstone 2 development this fall/spring (Redstone 1 is almost done), with RS2 Insider builds to come out shortly after Anniversary Update (Version 1607) hits the air. Hence try build releases for Insider build issues will be more frequent, and I’m hoping that we can get more developers and users onboard to help out with this effort.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2016 11:52 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Have I found an NVDA bug?

 

Joseph,

           Yes, this is under Windows 10 and using the latest update of NVDA.  I really appreciate your having looked into this and so promptly!!

           I ask the following not to be picky or nasty, but for clarity's sake on my end:  Why would this be a behavior that is addressed by an Add-On?  [And don't get me wrong, I'm grateful if it is addressed there as well.]  I would presume that if a context menu appears, and no item is selected in that context (no pun intended), that any screen reader should announce something like, "Context menu containing X items," or just simply, "Context menu presented," so that the user would know that they could begin traversing it with the arrow keys.

            If this is not a Windows 10 bug, and it's likely that this sort of context menu presentation might be prevalent, if not 100% consistent, it would make sense for screen readers to handle it gracefully in their native code.

Brian
--
Brian

I worry a lot. . . I worry that no matter how cynical you become it's never enough to keep up.

         ~ Trudy, in Jane Wagner's "Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe"

    

 


Quentin Christensen
 

Hi Brian,

You are correct, this is a bug.  It's a problem with the Start Menu itself and unfortunately there isn't much NVDA can do about it at this point aside from raise it with Microsoft (which we have done previously).  It seems to be one of those things that has worked in some builds and not in others.  I am running the latest insider build on one machine and it isn't even reading search results, let alone context menu items for search results on that machine, but on my other machine which is running the latest stable (not insider) build of Windows 10, it does read not only search results but also context menu items for them.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 4:38 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

Hello All,

          I am leaving the topic intentionally broad because I hope this thread might become a repository for "possible bug" identification before doing a formal report.

          When I hit WinKey and then type "Command Prompt" the search results show the Command Prompt desktop app as the first returned result and already selected.  Were I to hit enter at that moment a Command Prompt would open, but that's not what is wanted since the window needs to be run elevated as administrator.  If I hit the SHIFT+F10/Applications/Context Menu key rather than enter I am immediately presented with a 4-item context menu, which has no default focus on any item, but the fact that it is there is not announced so unless you can see it you'd have no way of knowing.  If you down arrow once to get to the first item NVDA begins announcing as usual.

          I am presuming that the lack of some announcement regarding the actual presentation of a context menu is a bug, but I want to be sure about that before reporting it, and to ask advice from those who've done this many times how to categorize it on github if it is, indeed, a bug.
--
Brian

I worry a lot. . . I worry that no matter how cynical you become it's never enough to keep up.

         ~ Trudy, in Jane Wagner's "Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe"

    





--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer

Ph +61 7 3149 3306 
Direct: +61 413 904 383
www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


 

Quentin,

          For your stable build, may I ask if it's 32 versus 64 bit and Pro versus Home?  I'm using Home 64 bit, latest stable build, and you know my story.  It would be interesting just to know which "stable" release builds are working with NVDA in this regard versus which are not.
--
Brian

I worry a lot. . . I worry that no matter how cynical you become it's never enough to keep up.

         ~ Trudy, in Jane Wagner's "Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe"

    



Quentin Christensen
 

Hi Brian,

The stable build I'm using is Windows 10 Pro, 64-bit, Version 1511 (OS build 10586.420) - having said that it just decided it wanted to update!

It's one of those things though that is a bit flakey and works well with one build of Windows and one version of NVDA and not with another, even if we haven't changed anything.  Microsoft do seem to be changing some things around in the start menu so we may still see more changes before the final anniversary build in July which I expect to be the next major consumer build.  It is quite frustrating though, as we're all finding.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 11:02 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

Quentin,

          For your stable build, may I ask if it's 32 versus 64 bit and Pro versus Home?  I'm using Home 64 bit, latest stable build, and you know my story.  It would be interesting just to know which "stable" release builds are working with NVDA in this regard versus which are not.
--
Brian

I worry a lot. . . I worry that no matter how cynical you become it's never enough to keep up.

         ~ Trudy, in Jane Wagner's "Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe"

    





--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer

Ph +61 7 3149 3306 
Direct: +61 413 904 383
www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess