Some issues with NVDA's reading


 

Hi group!
I just found some strange NVDA's reading issues that I think need to be fixed:
I will write 3 same sentences but with diffrent punctuation.:
Any questions?
Any questions??
Any questions ?
So, what's the difference? NVDA doesn't show these are the questions
when the question mark is after space or when it is more than 1
question mark into the same sentence.

I hope this will be fixed.
Sincerely,
Paulius Leveris


John Sanfilippo <john.sanfilippo@...>
 

Hi,


I only wonder how much depends on what speech synth is in use.


Regards,

John s

On 6/30/16 14:47, Paulius wrote:
Hi group!
I just found some strange NVDA's reading issues that I think need to be fixed:
I will write 3 same sentences but with diffrent punctuation.:
Any questions?
Any questions??
Any questions ?
So, what's the difference? NVDA doesn't show these are the questions
when the question mark is after space or when it is more than 1
question mark into the same sentence.

I hope this will be fixed.
Sincerely,
Paulius Leveris



 

I tried this with Eloquence, eSpeak and SAPI5 Default, all are making
that result...

2016-06-30 16:52 GMT+03:00, John Sanfilippo <john.sanfilippo@verizon.net>:

Hi,


I only wonder how much depends on what speech synth is in use.


Regards,

John s





On 6/30/16 14:47, Paulius wrote:
Hi group!
I just found some strange NVDA's reading issues that I think need to be
fixed:
I will write 3 same sentences but with diffrent punctuation.:
Any questions?
Any questions??
Any questions ?
So, what's the difference? NVDA doesn't show these are the questions
when the question mark is after space or when it is more than 1
question mark into the same sentence.

I hope this will be fixed.
Sincerely,
Paulius Leveris







Gene
 

We don't know if this has anything to do with NVDA.  It could be the way the synthesizer reads.  And what does "fix" mean?  Are you saying question mark should be spoken or that improper syntax be indicated so you will know there is an error?  That might make sense but that is probably asking for a new feature, not for something to be fixed.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Paulius
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2016 8:47 AM
Subject: [nvda] Some issues with NVDA's reading

Hi group!
I just found some strange NVDA's reading issues that I think need to be fixed:
I will write 3 same sentences but with diffrent punctuation.:
Any questions?
Any questions??
Any questions ?
So, what's the difference? NVDA doesn't show these are the questions
when the question mark is after space or when it is more than 1
question mark into the same sentence.

I hope this will be fixed.
Sincerely,
Paulius Leveris



 

I don't think that is the synthesizer error, because in JAWS all is OK.

2016-06-30 17:12 GMT+03:00, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com>:

We don't know if this has anything to do with NVDA. It could be the way the
synthesizer reads. And what does "fix" mean? Are you saying question mark
should be spoken or that improper syntax be indicated so you will know there
is an error? That might make sense but that is probably asking for a new
feature, not for something to be fixed.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Paulius
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2016 8:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Some issues with NVDA's reading


Hi group!
I just found some strange NVDA's reading issues that I think need to be
fixed:
I will write 3 same sentences but with diffrent punctuation.:
Any questions?
Any questions??
Any questions ?
So, what's the difference? NVDA doesn't show these are the questions
when the question mark is after space or when it is more than 1
question mark into the same sentence.

I hope this will be fixed.
Sincerely,
Paulius Leveris



 

I decided to give this a whirl myself and I do suspect that something's up.

I am used to most screen readers marking a question in the way that most people do, with a rising intonation at the end of the phrase at the end of the question.

If I enter the sentence, "If there are any questions, please ask them now," followed immediately by, "Any questions?," I don't get any rising intonation at the end of the word "questions" in the question and seem to get additional punch on the "Any".

I am not, however, getting any difference that I can hear on the double question mark version nor the space followed by question mark version in comparison to the conventional punctuation.  I am using NVDA 2016.2.1 on a Windows 10 Home 64-bit machine using the Microsoft SAPI-5 synthesizer and the Microsoft David Desktop English voice with no audio ducking on.
--
Brian

I worry a lot. . . I worry that no matter how cynical you become it's never enough to keep up.

         ~ Trudy, in Jane Wagner's "Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe"

    



Andre Fisher
 

This is indeed an NVDA issue, but can easily be fixed.
1. Go to the symbol pronunciation dialog.
2. Press the question mark twice. If you hear something like All and
Never, move on.
3. Tab to send...to synthesizer and change to either only before... or always.
Thanks

On 6/30/16, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
I decided to give this a whirl myself and I do suspect that something's up.

I am used to most screen readers marking a question in the way that most
people do, with a rising intonation at the end of the phrase at the end of
the question.

If I enter the sentence, "If there are any questions, please ask them now,"
followed immediately by, "Any questions?," I don't get any rising intonation
at the end of the word "questions" in the question and seem to get
additional punch on the "Any".

I am not, however, getting any difference that I can hear on the double
question mark version nor the space followed by question mark version in
comparison to the conventional punctuation.  I am using NVDA 2016.2.1 on a
Windows 10 Home 64-bit machine using the Microsoft SAPI-5 synthesizer and
the Microsoft David Desktop English voice with no audio ducking on.
--
Brian

I worry a lot. . . I worry that no matter how cynical you become it's never
enough to keep up.
         ~ Trudy, in Jane Wagner's "Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in
the Universe"


Gene
 

I do not get the results you describe using E-Speak.  The first sentence is read properly and the second sentence, Any questions?, is read with a proper rising intonation.   
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2016 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some issues with NVDA's reading

I decided to give this a whirl myself and I do suspect that something's up.

I am used to most screen readers marking a question in the way that most people do, with a rising intonation at the end of the phrase at the end of the question.

If I enter the sentence, "If there are any questions, please ask them now," followed immediately by, "Any questions?," I don't get any rising intonation at the end of the word "questions" in the question and seem to get additional punch on the "Any".

I am not, however, getting any difference that I can hear on the double question mark version nor the space followed by question mark version in comparison to the conventional punctuation.  I am using NVDA 2016.2.1 on a Windows 10 Home 64-bit machine using the Microsoft SAPI-5 synthesizer and the Microsoft David Desktop English voice with no audio ducking on.
--
Brian

I worry a lot. . . I worry that no matter how cynical you become it's never enough to keep up.

         ~ Trudy, in Jane Wagner's "Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe"

    



Gene
 

If there is an error such as a question mark being written twice, NVDA should not read it correctly or somehow alert the listener that there is a problem with the syntax.  How can you properly proofread a document if incorrect punctuation is read identically to correct punctuation or if you are not alerted in some other way or in both ways that there is a problem? 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2016 10:36 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some issues with NVDA's reading

This is indeed an NVDA issue, but can easily be fixed.
1. Go to the symbol pronunciation dialog.
2. Press the question mark twice. If you hear something like All and
Never, move on.
3. Tab to send...to synthesizer and change to either only before... or always.
Thanks

On 6/30/16, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
> I decided to give this a whirl myself and I do suspect that something's up.
>
> I am used to most screen readers marking a question in the way that most
> people do, with a rising intonation at the end of the phrase at the end of
> the question.
>
> If I enter the sentence, "If there are any questions, please ask them now,"
> followed immediately by, "Any questions?," I don't get any rising intonation
> at the end of the word "questions" in the question and seem to get
> additional punch on the "Any".
>
> I am not, however, getting any difference that I can hear on the double
> question mark version nor the space followed by question mark version in
> comparison to the conventional punctuation.  I am using NVDA 2016.2.1 on a
> Windows 10 Home 64-bit machine using the Microsoft SAPI-5 synthesizer and
> the Microsoft David Desktop English voice with no audio ducking on.
> --
> Brian
>
> I worry a lot. . . I worry that no matter how cynical you become it's never
> enough to keep up.
>          ~ Trudy, in Jane Wagner's "Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in
> the Universe"
>




 

Andre,

          I don't know how that fixes anything.  I still don't get the correct rising intonation on a sentence ending in a question mark.  That being said, I get precisely the same verbalization out of Window-Eyes, which I still consider peculiar.  It doesn't sound anything like the way most people say "Any questions?," in that the rise in intonation, and it's subtle, is on the 'a' in "any" with nothing on the "ions" in "questions".

--
Brian

I worry a lot. . . I worry that no matter how cynical you become it's never enough to keep up.

         ~ Trudy, in Jane Wagner's "Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe"

    



Chris Mullins
 

Have you altered the Punctuation/Symbols/pronunciation settings in the NVDA preferences menu to try and obtain your desired results?

Personally, I think the first sentence is syntactically correct and should speak with rising intonation at the end without announcing the question mark symbol and the other two sentences should announce the question mark symbols. I achieved this by by setting the sentence ending question to all and always and the question mark symbol to most and below symbol level.

Cheers
Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Paulius
Sent: 30 June 2016 14:47
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Some issues with NVDA's reading

Hi group!
I just found some strange NVDA's reading issues that I think need to be fixed:
I will write 3 same sentences but with diffrent punctuation.:
Any questions?
Any questions??
Any questions ?
So, what's the difference? NVDA doesn't show these are the questions when the question mark is after space or when it is more than 1 question mark into the same sentence.

I hope this will be fixed.
Sincerely,
Paulius Leveris


 

Chris,

            And what I'm telling you is that the first version of the question does not read correctly, to my ears, in either NVDA or Window-Eyes and the second two read precisely the same way.

            Since double exclamation points and double question marks (and/or combinations thereof) are not uncommon I have no issue with a screen reader reading these without any extra string of punctuation.

            I agree that a terminal space before the question mark itself is syntactically incorrect and the words should be read followed by "question mark" announcing the punctuation.  There is no case in written English that I know of where a question mark can "free float" and be syntactically correct.  It is always firmly attached to the final word in a question construction.
--
Brian

I worry a lot. . . I worry that no matter how cynical you become it's never enough to keep up.

         ~ Trudy, in Jane Wagner's "Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe"

    



Gene
 

I don't usually see double question marks or double exclamation points.  And such are far more likely to be the result of errors.  Again, a screen-reader should not treat nonstandard syntax as though it was standard syntax. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2016 5:38 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some issues with NVDA's reading

Chris,

            And what I'm telling you is that the first version of the question does not read correctly, to my ears, in either NVDA or Window-Eyes and the second two read precisely the same way.

            Since double exclamation points and double question marks (and/or combinations thereof) are not uncommon I have no issue with a screen reader reading these without any extra string of punctuation.

            I agree that a terminal space before the question mark itself is syntactically incorrect and the words should be read followed by "question mark" announcing the punctuation.  There is no case in written English that I know of where a question mark can "free float" and be syntactically correct.  It is always firmly attached to the final word in a question construction.
--
Brian

I worry a lot. . . I worry that no matter how cynical you become it's never enough to keep up.

         ~ Trudy, in Jane Wagner's "Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe"

    



 

What?!!   I'm shocked, shocked, I tell you!!!

[Look about.  Neither of the above is an uncommon construction, particularly in written dialog.]
--
Brian

I worry a lot. . . I worry that no matter how cynical you become it's never enough to keep up.

         ~ Trudy, in Jane Wagner's "Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe"

    



Gene
 

I've almost never seen double anything in written dialog.  I don't read much Braille any longer but I used to read a good deal of Braille and I don't recall ever seeing a double question mark.  I do recall, rarely, seeing double exclamation marks.  But a screen-reader should not ignore such things.  It should let the reader know, in some way, that these nonstandard constructions are present.  If it doesn't, it's worthless as a way to proofread a document where proper formal writing matters. 
 
If you want to argue that the user should be able to turn off such notifications, that's a different question.  But a screen-reader should alert the reader if a document has extra spaces between words, or nonstandard constructions such as double question marks or double exclamation marks or periods. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2016 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some issues with NVDA's reading

What?!!   I'm shocked, shocked, I tell you!!!

[Look about.  Neither of the above is an uncommon construction, particularly in written dialog.]
--
Brian

I worry a lot. . . I worry that no matter how cynical you become it's never enough to keep up.

         ~ Trudy, in Jane Wagner's "Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe"

    



Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Gene,

I've seen double exclamation marks in written documents byt not double question marks. I also feel that a screen reader should tell you if there are double marks. I'd want to know that.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2016 4:13 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some issues with NVDA's reading

I've almost never seen double anything in written dialog. I don't read much Braille any longer but I used to read a good deal of Braille and I don't recall ever seeing a double question mark. I do recall, rarely, seeing double exclamation marks. But a screen-reader should not ignore such things. It should let the reader know, in some way, that these nonstandard constructions are present. If it doesn't, it's worthless as a way to proofread a document where proper formal writing matters.

If you want to argue that the user should be able to turn off such notifications, that's a different question. But a screen-reader should alert the reader if a document has extra spaces between words, or nonstandard constructions such as double question marks or double exclamation marks or periods.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian Vogel <mailto:britechguy@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2016 5:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some issues with NVDA's reading


What?!! I'm shocked, shocked, I tell you!!!

[Look about. Neither of the above is an uncommon construction, particularly in written dialog.]
--
Brian

I worry a lot. . . I worry that no matter how cynical you become it's never enough to keep up.

~ Trudy, in Jane Wagner's "Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe"


Brian's Mail list account BY <bglists@...>
 

Exclamation marks are often multiple these days, something pioneered on social media etc, but creeping into other texts more recently.
Questions marks though seem to always be tied to the end of a word unless the ? is in a sentence such as this one is.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@ripco.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2016 11:45 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some issues with NVDA's reading


I don't usually see double question marks or double exclamation points. And such are far more likely to be the result of errors. Again, a screen-reader should not treat nonstandard syntax as though it was standard syntax.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2016 5:38 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some issues with NVDA's reading


Chris,

And what I'm telling you is that the first version of the question does not read correctly, to my ears, in either NVDA or Window-Eyes and the second two read precisely the same way.

Since double exclamation points and double question marks (and/or combinations thereof) are not uncommon I have no issue with a screen reader reading these without any extra string of punctuation.

I agree that a terminal space before the question mark itself is syntactically incorrect and the words should be read followed by "question mark" announcing the punctuation. There is no case in written English that I know of where a question mark can "free float" and be syntactically correct. It is always firmly attached to the final word in a question construction.
--
Brian


I worry a lot. . . I worry that no matter how cynical you become it's never enough to keep up.

~ Trudy, in Jane Wagner's "Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe"


Chris Mullins
 

With the punctuation/symbols pronunciation settings set as I indicated, the first sentence sounds different to the others two my ears.  I’ve tested it with ESpeak and Eloquence I get the same result.  When I originally received the message, the question marks were not spoken in any of the sentences but the 1st 1st line still sounds different to me.

 

I agree with Gene, the 2nd and 3rd sentences do not constitute syntactically correct sentences, so I changed my settings so the questin marks are spoken in those circumstances and thus may enable errors to be detected.

Cheers

Chris

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 30 June 2016 23:38
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some issues with NVDA's reading

 

Chris,

            And what I'm telling you is that the first version of the question does not read correctly, to my ears, in either NVDA or Window-Eyes and the second two read precisely the same way.

            Since double exclamation points and double question marks (and/or combinations thereof) are not uncommon I have no issue with a screen reader reading these without any extra string of punctuation.

            I agree that a terminal space before the question mark itself is syntactically incorrect and the words should be read followed by "question mark" announcing the punctuation.  There is no case in written English that I know of where a question mark can "free float" and be syntactically correct.  It is always firmly attached to the final word in a question construction.
--
Brian

I worry a lot. . . I worry that no matter how cynical you become it's never enough to keep up.

         ~ Trudy, in Jane Wagner's "Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe"

    

 


Clare Page <clare.page@...>
 

Hi !

It’s true that a space before a question mark is syntactically incorrect in English, but it is correct in French, where any punctuation symbols made up of two parts, such as the question mark and the colon, the latter being two dots above each other, are always separated from the last word of the sentence. I personally can’t think of any languages where doubole question marks are the norm, but even in English some people right multiple exclamation marks.

Given what I wrote above about the French standard for question marks, I don’t think NVDA should automatically read a question mark if it is separate from the last word of a question, as that may well annoy French users of NVDA, or even multilingual users like me. So it’s probably better that anyone who wants a separated question mark to be spoken for proof-reading should either review the ends of their questions character by character, or tweak their punctuation settings somehow. That’s just my opinion: I have no problems with questions in English, French or German, the three languages I use myself.

Bye for now!

From Clare

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: vendredi 1 juillet 2016 00:38
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some issues with NVDA's reading

 

Chris,

            And what I'm telling you is that the first version of the question does not read correctly, to my ears, in either NVDA or Window-Eyes and the second two read precisely the same way.

            Since double exclamation points and double question marks (and/or combinations thereof) are not uncommon I have no issue with a screen reader reading these without any extra string of punctuation.

            I agree that a terminal space before the question mark itself is syntactically incorrect and the words should be read followed by "question mark" announcing the punctuation.  There is no case in written English that I know of where a question mark can "free float" and be syntactically correct.  It is always firmly attached to the final word in a question construction.
--
Brian

I worry a lot. . . I worry that no matter how cynical you become it's never enough to keep up.

         ~ Trudy, in Jane Wagner's "Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe"

    

 


Chris Mullins
 

Hi Clair

Thanks for your contribution re French.  If the language is set to French in the NVDA settings, does the space between 2 part symbols and the last word of a sentence get considered when the text is processed and spoken, as it is syntactically correct for that language?  Not having any other language than English I can’t say but I agree with you that it shouldn’t be read automatically by NVDA and should remain configurable via the Punctuation/Symbols Pronunciation dialog.

 

Cheers

Chris         

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Clare Page
Sent: 01 July 2016 11:48
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some issues with NVDA's reading

 

Hi !

It’s true that a space before a question mark is syntactically incorrect in English, but it is correct in French, where any punctuation symbols made up of two parts, such as the question mark and the colon, the latter being two dots above each other, are always separated from the last word of the sentence. I personally can’t think of any languages where doubole question marks are the norm, but even in English some people right multiple exclamation marks.

Given what I wrote above about the French standard for question marks, I don’t think NVDA should automatically read a question mark if it is separate from the last word of a question, as that may well annoy French users of NVDA, or even multilingual users like me. So it’s probably better that anyone who wants a separated question mark to be spoken for proof-reading should either review the ends of their questions character by character, or tweak their punctuation settings somehow. That’s just my opinion: I have no problems with questions in English, French or German, the three languages I use myself.

Bye for now!

From Clare

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: vendredi 1 juillet 2016 00:38
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some issues with NVDA's reading

 

Chris,

            And what I'm telling you is that the first version of the question does not read correctly, to my ears, in either NVDA or Window-Eyes and the second two read precisely the same way.

            Since double exclamation points and double question marks (and/or combinations thereof) are not uncommon I have no issue with a screen reader reading these without any extra string of punctuation.

            I agree that a terminal space before the question mark itself is syntactically incorrect and the words should be read followed by "question mark" announcing the punctuation.  There is no case in written English that I know of where a question mark can "free float" and be syntactically correct.  It is always firmly attached to the final word in a question construction.
--
Brian

I worry a lot. . . I worry that no matter how cynical you become it's never enough to keep up.

         ~ Trudy, in Jane Wagner's "Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe"