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more on symbol pronounciation


David Mehler
 

Hello,

Running NVDA 2018.2.1 on win7, working fine. In symbols pronounciation
I changed the first two items sentence endings the dot and bang
changed them to period and exclaimation, seleced ok, saved
configuration, and restarted NVDA, this did not work.

Thanks.
Dave.


Tyler Spivey
 

Then change the other two.

On 7/2/2018 11:44 AM, David Mehler wrote:
Hello,

Running NVDA 2018.2.1 on win7, working fine. In symbols pronounciation
I changed the first two items sentence endings the dot and bang
changed them to period and exclaimation, seleced ok, saved
configuration, and restarted NVDA, this did not work.

Thanks.
Dave.



 

It's also not entirely clear to me what the "level" and "preserve" settings mean and how they interact with each other and how order in the list might influence things as well.

Since the sentence ending period (dot) and exclamation point (bang) are noted as level all and preserve always, while further down we have the period character with dot (the pronunciation) with level some and preserve never and the exclamation point character with bang with level all and preserve never it's really unclear to me what one would have to do to get context specific pronunciation.

When you throw in decimal point, which shows no actual character, just the name decimal point, things become more unclear.

I generally use "bang" for the exclamation point only in the context of programming or when writing out a keystroke sequence that requires its use, but "exclamation point" when talking about it as a punctuation mark.

When it comes to the period character it's period as punctuation in written English or other natural language, dot in things like URLs or other classification systems, and point in numbers.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

     Explanations exist; they have existed for all time; there is always a well-known solution to every human problem — neat, plausible, and wrong.

          ~ H.L. Mencken, AKA The Sage of Baltimore

 

 


Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Strange I've done huge changes with semicolons apostrophes and loads of others and the seem to have stuck.
I think NVDA urgently needs an ability to load national variations of these symbols easily. When I wanted to give mine to somebody else it meant trying to see where the file was stored, and then putting my file in after renaming theirs, otherwise its either install it from a portable copy over theirs and lose their other settings or do it all one at a time and as we all know the symbols turn up multiple times so need to all be changed.

Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
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----- Original Message -----
From: "David Mehler" <dave.mehler@gmail.com>
To: "nvda" <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2018 7:44 PM
Subject: [nvda] more on symbol pronounciation


Hello,

Running NVDA 2018.2.1 on win7, working fine. In symbols pronounciation
I changed the first two items sentence endings the dot and bang
changed them to period and exclaimation, seleced ok, saved
configuration, and restarted NVDA, this did not work.

Thanks.
Dave.


Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Yes and its not just Espeak that seems to alter this either. I noticed the other day that Sapi 5 in web addresses says point, but it says dot in email addresses which seems to override what the symbols are telling it to do.
Maybe we need a simple to understand explanation, as much of this has grown over time and additional parameters have been added as needed to control stuff, but precious little detail seems to be around. Something I touched on in another thread recently.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2018 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] more on symbol pronounciation


It's also not entirely clear to me what the "level" and "preserve" settings mean and how they interact with each other and how order in the list might influence things as well.

Since the sentence ending period (dot) and exclamation point (bang) are noted as level all and preserve always, while further down we have the period character with dot (the pronunciation) with level some and preserve never and the exclamation point character with bang with level all and preserve never it's really unclear to me what one would have to do to get context specific pronunciation.

When you throw in decimal point, which shows no actual character, just the name decimal point, things become more unclear.

I generally use "bang" for the exclamation point only in the context of programming or when writing out a keystroke sequence that requires its use, but "exclamation point" when talking about it as a punctuation mark.

When it comes to the period character it's period as punctuation in written English or other natural language, dot in things like URLs or other classification systems, and point in numbers.

--

*Brian* *-* Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134

Explanations exist; they have existed for all time; there is always a well-known solution to every human problem — neat, plausible, and wrong.

~ H.L. Mencken , AKA The Sage of Baltimore


Mohamed
 

Level indicates at what symbol level the character is spoken, and preserve controls whether the symbol is actually sent to the synthesizer or not, so for the bang/exclamation point, its replacement is spoken at symbol level all and is always sent to the synthesizer so it can decide to handle the punctuation mark in the way it chooses. The sentence ending version of the period is used at the end of sentences, and the other period entry is used for everything else.


On 7/2/2018 4:35 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
It's also not entirely clear to me what the "level" and "preserve" settings mean and how they interact with each other and how order in the list might influence things as well.

Since the sentence ending period (dot) and exclamation point (bang) are noted as level all and preserve always, while further down we have the period character with dot (the pronunciation) with level some and preserve never and the exclamation point character with bang with level all and preserve never it's really unclear to me what one would have to do to get context specific pronunciation.

When you throw in decimal point, which shows no actual character, just the name decimal point, things become more unclear.

I generally use "bang" for the exclamation point only in the context of programming or when writing out a keystroke sequence that requires its use, but "exclamation point" when talking about it as a punctuation mark.

When it comes to the period character it's period as punctuation in written English or other natural language, dot in things like URLs or other classification systems, and point in numbers.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

     Explanations exist; they have existed for all time; there is always a well-known solution to every human problem — neat, plausible, and wrong.

          ~ H.L. Mencken, AKA The Sage of Baltimore

 

 



Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

But that does not explain point in web addresses but dot in email addresses.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mohamed" <malhajamy@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2018 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] more on symbol pronounciation


Level indicates at what symbol level the character is spoken, and
preserve controls whether the symbol is actually sent to the synthesizer
or not, so for the bang/exclamation point, its replacement is spoken at
symbol level all and is always sent to the synthesizer so it can decide
to handle the punctuation mark in the way it chooses. The sentence
ending version of the period is used at the end of sentences, and the
other period entry is used for everything else.


On 7/2/2018 4:35 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
It's also not entirely clear to me what the "level" and "preserve"
settings mean and how they interact with each other and how order in
the list might influence things as well.

Since the sentence ending period (dot) and exclamation point (bang)
are noted as level all and preserve always, while further down we have
the period character with dot (the pronunciation) with level some and
preserve never and the exclamation point character with bang with
level all and preserve never it's really unclear to me what one would
have to do to get context specific pronunciation.

When you throw in decimal point, which shows no actual character, just
the name decimal point, things become more unclear.

I generally use "bang" for the exclamation point only in the context
of programming or when writing out a keystroke sequence that requires
its use, but "exclamation point" when talking about it as a
punctuation mark.

When it comes to the period character it's period as punctuation in
written English or other natural language, dot in things like URLs or
other classification systems, and point in numbers.

--

*Brian**-*Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134

/Explanations exist; they have existed for all time; there is always a
well-known solution to every human problem — neat, plausible, and wrong./

~ H.L. Mencken, AKA /The Sage of Baltimore/




Mohamed
 

That's probably a synthesizer issue, as far as I know NVDA doesn't attempt to distinguish between the various types of dots other than the sentence ending and the symbol.

On 7/3/2018 6:45 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
But that does not explain point in web addresses but dot in email addresses.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Mohamed" <malhajamy@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2018 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] more on symbol pronounciation


Level indicates at what symbol level the character is spoken, and
preserve controls whether the symbol is actually sent to the synthesizer
or not, so for the bang/exclamation point, its replacement is spoken at
symbol level all and is always sent to the synthesizer so it can decide
to handle the punctuation mark in the way it chooses. The sentence
ending version of the period is used at the end of sentences, and the
other period entry is used for everything else.


On 7/2/2018 4:35 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
It's also not entirely clear to me what the "level" and "preserve"
settings mean and how they interact with each other and how order in
the list might influence things as well.

Since the sentence ending period (dot) and exclamation point (bang)
are noted as level all and preserve always, while further down we have
the period character with dot (the pronunciation) with level some and
preserve never and the exclamation point character with bang with
level all and preserve never it's really unclear to me what one would
have to do to get context specific pronunciation.

When you throw in decimal point, which shows no actual character, just
the name decimal point, things become more unclear.

I generally use "bang" for the exclamation point only in the context
of programming or when writing out a keystroke sequence that requires
its use, but "exclamation point" when talking about it as a
punctuation mark.

When it comes to the period character it's period as punctuation in
written English or other natural language, dot in things like URLs or
other classification systems, and point in numbers.

--

*Brian**-*Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134

/Explanations exist; they have existed for all time; there is always a
well-known solution to every human problem — neat, plausible, and wrong./

~ H.L. Mencken, AKA /The Sage of Baltimore/






 

On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 01:18 am, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
Maybe we need a simple to understand explanation, as much of this has grown over time and additional parameters have been added as needed to control stuff, but precious little detail seems to be around.
You really have no idea just how frequent and common this is as very few software projects put nearly the emphasis on documentation, both for their programming team and end users, that they should.

This issue is complicated by the fact that there exists a very strongly embedded culture among a very large swath of programmers that, "the code is self documenting," so comments are not used and that it's "a waste of my time" to work with technical writers to create the manuals for either future programmers or end users.  It's had a pernicious effect since day one.

Features, and their attendant data changes, get added of necessity or desire, but documentation surrounding same often never gets updated or created.  I've encountered this recently with regard to the Read-Only attribute on folders under Windows, which employs a 3-state checkbox [which should have been implemented as a radio button group, if you ask me], that is virtually undocumented.  I didn't think there was anything under the sun about Windows that I hadn't encountered at some point during my long career, but that was a new one on me.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

     Explanations exist; they have existed for all time; there is always a well-known solution to every human problem — neat, plausible, and wrong.

          ~ H.L. Mencken, AKA The Sage of Baltimore