PDF t9 Word keeping footnotes


Akshaya Choudhary
 

Sorry for spamming guys! I'm new to assisting technology.
Is there a way to convert a PDF to word and keep all the footnotes intact? In such a way that they can be accessed with alt plus S, H, command. 
Need to work on a book for school project but can't access the PDF properly. And when I convert it to word in Abby fine reader, footnotes become the part of the flow text. This makes them hard to identify with NVDA. 
Hoping someone can help

Regards


Quentin Christensen
 

When you say you can't access the PDF properly, is Adobe Reader reading any of the text?  If you need to use Abbyy to convert it to readable text, then there likely isn't a way of converting to a Word document and keeping the footnotes.

If you need it for school and are finding you have to use Abbyy to make it readable, I would advise trying to convince the school to give you a more accessible format to begin with.   Otherwise, they will assume it works fine and keep sending you the same format.  Note that PDF can be perfectly accessible, so I first ensure you have the latest version of Adobe Reader just in case.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 7:36 AM, Sociohack AC <acsociopath@...> wrote:
Sorry for spamming guys! I'm new to assisting technology.
Is there a way to convert a PDF to word and keep all the footnotes intact? In such a way that they can be accessed with alt plus S, H, command. 
Need to work on a book for school project but can't access the PDF properly. And when I convert it to word in Abby fine reader, footnotes become the part of the flow text. This makes them hard to identify with NVDA. 
Hoping someone can help

Regards




--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Akshaya Choudhary
 

Hello Quentin! 
Pardon my ignorance, but I don't to how to navigate PDFs with NVDA. I have always converted them in word. But, now I get material in which footnotes are very important. Can I navigate them in the PDF itself? Can you give me a link on navigating PDF with NVDA?  I need the ability to -
1. Add, read and edit comments.
2. Highlight text and navigate highlighted text as you suggested for word in my previous question. 
3. Navigating footnotes by jumping to the footnotes from the respective reference number. 
4. Other basic commands like - reading para by para and skim read feature

Basicàly, I need an efficient way of reading footnotes, as you can do in word. But, I only receive PDFs and as you said converting them to word won't help. 
Sometimes I also receive scanned books in PDF.  Can footnotes in them would be read as well? 
Could daisy be a solution? 
Sorry, for the lengthy post, but this is important. 


Thanks for your time!
Regards 


Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Yes there are a considerable number of clueless people in education industry and in fact many walks of life who feel that just creating a picture off text is OK as they can see the letters. You also get files formatted as if it were in a newspaper but where they have not tagged the changes in reading order as the columns etc change in the file. if I had a ten pound not for every pdf I've had where page one is perfect but the rest is gibberish I would be a rich man!

Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Quentin Christensen" <quentin@nvaccess.org>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 3:06 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] PDF t9 Word keeping footnotes


When you say you can't access the PDF properly, is Adobe Reader reading any
of the text? If you need to use Abbyy to convert it to readable text, then
there likely isn't a way of converting to a Word document and keeping the
footnotes.

If you need it for school and are finding you have to use Abbyy to make it
readable, I would advise trying to convince the school to give you a more
accessible format to begin with. Otherwise, they will assume it works
fine and keep sending you the same format. Note that PDF can be perfectly
accessible, so I first ensure you have the latest version of Adobe Reader
just in case.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 7:36 AM, Sociohack AC <acsociopath@gmail.com> wrote:

Sorry for spamming guys! I'm new to assisting technology.
Is there a way to convert a PDF to word and keep all the footnotes intact?
In such a way that they can be accessed with alt plus S, H, command.
Need to work on a book for school project but can't access the PDF
properly. And when I convert it to word in Abby fine reader, footnotes
become the part of the flow text. This makes them hard to identify with
NVDA.
Hoping someone can help

Regards



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess



Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

See my reply. Scanned are generally just pictures, so obviously an ocr is the only way to go. However if you have contact with the document supplier and they do not understand how to make pdfs accessible and how to make comments editable etc, it might be easier for them to simply send you the original docx files that they made them with instead, or they will need to be using the paid for pdf Adobe suite of software to make them accessible. They could be using any old third party tool or word itself to make them and hence it would be fare easier to send them as word in the first place. From experience the only reason they site for using pdf is that they do not want people changing content, but in the case of a blind user, if they cannot create an accessible pdf, the use of word would seem to be a logical adjustment to make.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sociohack AC" <acsociopath@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 7:16 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] PDF t9 Word keeping footnotes


Hello Quentin!

Pardon my ignorance, but I don't to how to navigate PDFs with NVDA. I have
always converted them in word. But, now I get material in which footnotes
are very important. Can I navigate them in the PDF itself? Can you give me
a link on navigating PDF with NVDA? I need the ability to -
1. Add, read and edit comments.
2. Highlight text and navigate highlighted text as you suggested for word in my previous question.
3. Navigating footnotes by jumping to the footnotes from the respective reference number.
4. Other basic commands like - reading para by para and skim read feature

Basicàly, I need an efficient way of reading footnotes, as you can do in word. But, I only receive PDFs and as you said converting them to word won't help.
Sometimes I also receive scanned books in PDF. Can footnotes in them would be read as well?
Could daisy be a solution?
Sorry, for the lengthy post, but this is important.

Thanks for your time!
Regards


Jonathan COHN
 

Hello,

Yes either Daisy, NIMAS or ePub is more likely to have appropriate markup for footnotes. I believe most textbooks in the US are supposed to be available in the NIMAS accessible format.  The Braille Blaster program can convert NIMAS files directly into Braille documents. You can read a bit more about NIMAS at:
http://aem.cast.org/creating/national-instructional-materials-accessibility-standard-nimas.html
The Daisy and ePub standards are now pretty much merged, and since the Edge browser will act as a ePub reader, that might work for reviewing your documents if you can get them in that format. I believe that PDF documents that conform to PDF-UA should also have navigable footnotes. The problem with pdf is that it was initially designed to provide different printers with the ability to produce the same page output no matter the printer and accessibility needs were only added later when the US Government started supplying documents and forms in PDF.

Best Wishes,

Jonathan Cohn
 

 


Quentin Christensen
 

I think scanning hardware is as much to blame as education professionals here too.  I've seen numerous photocopiers which could scan something and email it to you and they will do it in PDF - a scanned image PDF.  I understand the scanner doesn't usually have OCR software built-in, but if people scan and get a PDF in their email, most people aren't going to think they need to do anything with it, if they know the end-user can (theoretically) work with a PDF file.  And in fact, if they wanted, those office photocopiers COULD include OCR software if they wanted, particularly when you are talking about a professional grade office machine that costs a few thousand dollars and already has a reasonable amount of computing power to drive it.

Even for home users, it's not as easy as it once was.  My wife and I recently bought a Canon CanoScan 9000F and it has no less than FOUR buttons on the front which all scan to PDF images (colour, black and white, I don't even recall what else, but they're four buttons we won't wear out anytime soon).  In order to scan to text (using the very rudimentary built-in OCR software), I had to open a program that was hidden away in the start menu - not any of the icons that got put in the notification area or on the desktop - and from that choose "scan to text", and then I get it scanned into Notepad.

On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 12:12 AM, Cohn, Jonathan <jcohn@...> wrote:
Hello,

Yes either Daisy, NIMAS or ePub is more likely to have appropriate markup for footnotes. I believe most textbooks in the US are supposed to be available in the NIMAS accessible format.  The Braille Blaster program can convert NIMAS files directly into Braille documents. You can read a bit more about NIMAS at:
http://aem.cast.org/creating/national-instructional-materials-accessibility-standard-nimas.html
The Daisy and ePub standards are now pretty much merged, and since the Edge browser will act as a ePub reader, that might work for reviewing your documents if you can get them in that format. I believe that PDF documents that conform to PDF-UA should also have navigable footnotes. The problem with pdf is that it was initially designed to provide different printers with the ability to produce the same page output no matter the printer and accessibility needs were only added later when the US Government started supplying documents and forms in PDF.

Best Wishes,

Jonathan Cohn
 

 




--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


 

Its interesting to note, the latest office scanners the small cheap as chips multifunction ones I am talking about, and since most of these are 200 bucks down to 50, I got a 90$ one for my aunt with the cloud system.

It doesn't come with any software, drivers, yes, a mobile app, yes, e printing, yes, some photo software yes, and free professional photo software yes.

Scanning is controled from the device, but its got no ocr.

I had to buy ocr for my previous printer.

On 7/13/2018 11:41 AM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
I think scanning hardware is as much to blame as education professionals
here too. I've seen numerous photocopiers which could scan something and
email it to you and they will do it in PDF - a scanned image PDF. I
understand the scanner doesn't usually have OCR software built-in, but if
people scan and get a PDF in their email, most people aren't going to think
they need to do anything with it, if they know the end-user can
(theoretically) work with a PDF file. And in fact, if they wanted, those
office photocopiers COULD include OCR software if they wanted, particularly
when you are talking about a professional grade office machine that costs a
few thousand dollars and already has a reasonable amount of computing power
to drive it.

Even for home users, it's not as easy as it once was. My wife and I
recently bought a Canon CanoScan 9000F and it has no less than FOUR buttons
on the front which all scan to PDF images (colour, black and white, I don't
even recall what else, but they're four buttons we won't wear out anytime
soon). In order to scan to text (using the very rudimentary built-in OCR
software), I had to open a program that was hidden away in the start menu -
not any of the icons that got put in the notification area or on the
desktop - and from that choose "scan to text", and then I get it scanned
into Notepad.

On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 12:12 AM, Cohn, Jonathan <jcohn@air.org> wrote:

Hello,

Yes either Daisy, NIMAS or ePub is more likely to have appropriate markup
for footnotes. I believe most textbooks in the US are supposed to be
available in the NIMAS accessible format. The Braille Blaster program can
convert NIMAS files directly into Braille documents. You can read a bit
more about NIMAS at:
http://aem.cast.org/creating/national-instructional-
materials-accessibility-standard-nimas.html
<http://aem.cast.org/creating/national-instructional-materials-accessibility-standard-nimas.html#.W0deXS2ZNAY>
The Daisy and ePub standards are now pretty much merged, and since the
Edge browser will act as a ePub reader, that might work for reviewing your
documents if you can get them in that format. I believe that PDF documents
that conform to PDF-UA should also have navigable footnotes. The problem
with pdf is that it was initially designed to provide different printers
with the ability to produce the same page output no matter the printer and
accessibility needs were only added later when the US Government started
supplying documents and forms in PDF.

Best Wishes,

Jonathan Cohn






Quentin Christensen
 

Yes it was hard to get good information about the included software - some people said they just used OCR which came with their unit, others bought software.  So we decided to buy the unit and see what it came with.  We're looking at getting Abbyy Finereader now.

On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 9:47 AM, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@...> wrote:
Its interesting to note, the latest office scanners the small cheap as chips multifunction ones I am talking about, and since most of these are 200 bucks down to 50, I got a 90$ one for my aunt with the cloud system.

It doesn't come with any software, drivers, yes, a mobile app, yes, e printing, yes, some photo software yes, and free professional photo software yes.

Scanning is controled from the device, but its got no ocr.

I had to buy ocr for my previous printer.





On 7/13/2018 11:41 AM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
I think scanning hardware is as much to blame as education professionals
here too.  I've seen numerous photocopiers which could scan something and
email it to you and they will do it in PDF - a scanned image PDF.  I
understand the scanner doesn't usually have OCR software built-in, but if
people scan and get a PDF in their email, most people aren't going to think
they need to do anything with it, if they know the end-user can
(theoretically) work with a PDF file.  And in fact, if they wanted, those
office photocopiers COULD include OCR software if they wanted, particularly
when you are talking about a professional grade office machine that costs a
few thousand dollars and already has a reasonable amount of computing power
to drive it.

Even for home users, it's not as easy as it once was.  My wife and I
recently bought a Canon CanoScan 9000F and it has no less than FOUR buttons
on the front which all scan to PDF images (colour, black and white, I don't
even recall what else, but they're four buttons we won't wear out anytime
soon).  In order to scan to text (using the very rudimentary built-in OCR
software), I had to open a program that was hidden away in the start menu -
not any of the icons that got put in the notification area or on the
desktop - and from that choose "scan to text", and then I get it scanned
into Notepad.

On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 12:12 AM, Cohn, Jonathan <jcohn@...> wrote:

Hello,

Yes either Daisy, NIMAS or ePub is more likely to have appropriate markup
for footnotes. I believe most textbooks in the US are supposed to be
available in the NIMAS accessible format.  The Braille Blaster program can
convert NIMAS files directly into Braille documents. You can read a bit
more about NIMAS at:
http://aem.cast.org/creating/national-instructional-
materials-accessibility-standard-nimas.html
<http://aem.cast.org/creating/national-instructional-materials-accessibility-standard-nimas.html#.W0deXS2ZNAY>
The Daisy and ePub standards are now pretty much merged, and since the
Edge browser will act as a ePub reader, that might work for reviewing your
documents if you can get them in that format. I believe that PDF documents
that conform to PDF-UA should also have navigable footnotes. The problem
with pdf is that it was initially designed to provide different printers
with the ability to produce the same page output no matter the printer and
accessibility needs were only added later when the US Government started
supplying documents and forms in PDF.

Best Wishes,

Jonathan Cohn














--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess