My thoughts on offensive company names and so on.


John Isige
 

Well for me, I don't care about the offensiveness so much. What I care about is stuff like:

Last night I was using elocrash with Skum from Microslop and I tried with the shark and Microslop Notreader and NVDA and nothing was working"! I'm sorry, l33t (look it up if you don't know/remember) wasn't cool back in the 80s when it got started, and this stuff that's essentially an equivalent of it isn't cool either. I know, just like the l33t k1dz whu t0t3z roxxorz! you think you're terribly terribly clever, but just as they weren't, really, you're not.

That's my problem, having to parse whatever dumb gibberish people think is clever this week because all they can do is puns, the lowest form of humor, on company names that really don't work anyway, instead of coming up with something that's actually witty and meaningful. You see what I did there? I actually wrote real words that everybody can understand and stuff instead of going "shut up, John Isicky"! It also seems really odd to insult a company you just got done saying did something right, but maybe that's just that irony all you young people are supposed to be into nowadays, and I'm just too old to get it. Besides, you will never beat the pun on HP-UX, which is both obvious and funny, so really, there's no point to it all anyway. I'll leave the working out of that pun as an exercise for the reader.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with the offensive part too. While I realize companies, e.g. Microsoft, have a history to live down, a lot of that was quite a while ago. Plus, how are they ever going to live it down or get better if we're not giving them a chance, semi-praising them on the one hand and insulting them on the other? You think that will make them want to keep putting in the work for accessibility? Also, what in the world is up with this "they're playing catch-up" stuff? Ooooo, Apple did accessibility right, they showed everybody how it's done! OK, and then you're upset that somebody's copying that? I mean, if Apple's so super special awesome and all, shouldn't we want everybody and their fifth cousin to copy them, such that we have proper accessibility on every conceivable platform? Why are you complaining that other companies are doing something like that? That should be, as I believe I've said when it was mentioned that keyboard commands were being changed to be more like other screen readers, exactly what we want. For example, my wife bought a used mac for us. I read this article:

https://www.applevis.com/blog/apple-mac-os-x/debunking-common-myths-about-voiceover-mac

Looking at the web section, I see we've got commands to jump by headings and all, and it seems pretty similar to other screen readers. Great! That's less time wasted in trying to figure out how to do simple things, and more time using the mac. Obviously I want to get more familiar with the mac way of doing things and not just do what I'm doing on Windows, because maybe mac does something better. But that will happen over time. If I want to sit down and start checking something out to see what it's like, the more barriers in my way like "learn an entirely different set of commands and things just to navigate a web page", the less likely I am to want to use that thing.

I'm not suggesting that every screen reader should work exactly like every other screen reader. I'm saying that there should be a base set of things that are pretty similar, e.g. I can do a lot of the same basic stuff to get around in Android that I can do to get around in iOS. Sure, if I really want to use either one, I'm going to have to learn their specifics, but in general, I can pick up either kind of device with a screen reader active and start using it to do stuff, no problem. You can see this with NVDA too. What's the thing most people get hung up on?

That's right, object navigation. I use it a lot more now, particularly if something isn't reading what I think it should, but it was confusing for a bit until I got Joseph's tutorial. But you know what? Part of that was because it was different from other screen readers I'd used, but part of it was that I didn't have to worry about using it for a long time, because NVDA does what I'm talking about. If you've used NVDA and JFW, as I assume most people here have, you know there's a lot of stuff that's similar between them in how you access Windows, e.g. using the arrow keys and such.

But maybe you actually find object navigation better than the jaws cursor. I'll give you an example, on the mac if you're reading a table, you interact with it. Then you read it like you read any other thing. So there's only, potentially, one extra command to remember, you have to interact first. I don't have to try and learn a whole new set of table navigation keystrokes. I used that example because it's fresh in my mind and I honestly don't remember enough about how JFW did things to say what's better or worse between it and NVDA.

Anyway the point to this rambling is that we shouldn't be implying that other companies are substandard or whatever, because they've got feature Y that looks a lot like feature X from Company Z's screen reader Lava Talk, the screen reader that spits fire! We should be going "awesome, they realized what works already, that's gonna save me a lot of time if I ever have to learn or use that screen reader, especially if it's on short notice". We shouldn't be complaining that they're "catching up". I say, are they doing the work? Great, that means more stuff I can use in more situations. Any "catching up" being done is nothing but a benefit to us, pure and simple. Here's one last example. Microsoft now has it so you can use Narrator in safe mode. How awesome would it be if they had a key you could hold down while Windows is booting, like the recovery keys on a mac, that boots you into safe mode automatically? Right now I'm pretty sure you still have to hit a key and pick from a menu, which means sighted assistance, if you want to be sure you've got it right. How cool would it be to hold down, I don't know, Windows-n on boot and get safe mode with networking, and just waiting a bit and then launching Narrator and geting speech? I don't know about anybody else, but it sounds really nice to me, if I ever encounter a problem.

There, I think I'm done. Except to say, again, that we should be praising companies who are trying to do right, even if we think it took them long enough, instead of slamming them for that and inventing dumb insulting names for them. If they're doing right, or trying to do right, then that's what they're doing, and we should only encourage it. Sure, if they mess up, tell them so, hopefully constructively. I'm not saying we should only be nice and say only good things about the stuff companies make. But by all the gods, have some perspective. Your names are neither cute nor clever, and we're not twelve any more. I'm pretty sure I'm like, 14 or something.


David Moore
 

Here is my wisdom!

If you have nothing good to say, say nothing, that would be so much better! If you have a problem with someone, say it to their face, quit being evasive with members on the list, who can do nothing about your gripe. Talk to MS yourself!

David Moore

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: John Isige
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2018 3:35 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] My thoughts on offensive company names and so on.

 

Well for me, I don't care about the offensiveness so much. What I care

about is stuff like:

 

Last night I was using elocrash with Skum from Microslop and I tried

with the shark and Microslop Notreader and NVDA and nothing was

working"! I'm sorry, l33t (look it up if you don't know/remember) wasn't

cool back in the 80s when it got started, and this stuff that's

essentially an equivalent of it isn't cool either. I know, just like the

l33t k1dz whu t0t3z roxxorz! you think you're terribly terribly clever,

but just as they weren't, really, you're not.

 

That's my problem, having to parse whatever dumb gibberish people think

is clever this week because all they can do is puns, the lowest form of

humor, on company names that really don't work anyway, instead of coming

up with something that's actually witty and meaningful. You see what I

did there? I actually wrote real words that everybody can understand and

stuff instead of going "shut up, John Isicky"! It also seems really odd

to insult a company you just got done saying did something right, but

maybe that's just that irony all you young people are supposed to be

into nowadays, and I'm just too old to get it. Besides, you will never

beat the pun on HP-UX, which is both obvious and funny, so really,

there's no point to it all anyway. I'll leave the working out of that

pun as an exercise for the reader.

 

Don't get me wrong, I agree with the offensive part too. While I realize

companies, e.g. Microsoft, have a history to live down, a lot of that

was quite a while ago. Plus, how are they ever going to live it down or

get better if we're not giving them a chance, semi-praising them on the

one hand and insulting them on the other? You think that will make them

want to keep putting in the work for accessibility? Also, what in the

world is up with this "they're playing catch-up" stuff? Ooooo, Apple did

accessibility right, they showed everybody how it's done! OK, and then

you're upset that somebody's copying that? I mean, if Apple's so super

special awesome and all, shouldn't we want everybody and their fifth

cousin to copy them, such that we have proper accessibility on every

conceivable platform? Why are you complaining that other companies are

doing something like that? That should be, as I believe I've said when

it was mentioned that keyboard commands were being changed to be more

like other screen readers, exactly what we want. For example, my wife

bought a used mac for us. I read this article:

 

https://www.applevis.com/blog/apple-mac-os-x/debunking-common-myths-about-voiceover-mac

 

Looking at the web section, I see we've got commands to jump by headings

and all, and it seems pretty similar to other screen readers. Great!

That's less time wasted in trying to figure out how to do simple things,

and more time using the mac. Obviously I want to get more familiar with

the mac way of doing things and not just do what I'm doing on Windows,

because maybe mac does something better. But that will happen over time.

If I want to sit down and start checking something out to see what it's

like, the more barriers in my way like "learn an entirely different set

of commands and things just to navigate a web page", the less likely I

am to want to use that thing.

 

I'm not suggesting that every screen reader should work exactly like

every other screen reader. I'm saying that there should be a base set of

things that are pretty similar, e.g. I can do a lot of the same basic

stuff to get around in Android that I can do to get around in iOS. Sure,

if I really want to use either one, I'm going to have to learn their

specifics, but in general, I can pick up either kind of device with a

screen reader active and start using it to do stuff, no problem. You can

see this with NVDA too. What's the thing most people get hung up on?

 

That's right, object navigation. I use it a lot more now, particularly

if something isn't reading what I think it should, but it was confusing

for a bit until I got Joseph's tutorial. But you know what? Part of that

was because it was different from other screen readers I'd used, but

part of it was that I didn't have to worry about using it for a long

time, because NVDA does what I'm talking about. If you've used NVDA and

JFW, as I assume most people here have, you know there's a lot of stuff

that's similar between them in how you access Windows, e.g. using the

arrow keys and such.

 

But maybe you actually find object navigation better than the jaws

cursor. I'll give you an example, on the mac if you're reading a table,

you interact with it. Then you read it like you read any other thing. So

there's only, potentially, one extra command to remember, you have to

interact first. I don't have to try and learn a whole new set of table

navigation keystrokes. I used that example because it's fresh in my mind

and I honestly don't remember enough about how JFW did things to say

what's better or worse between it and NVDA.

 

Anyway the point to this rambling is that we shouldn't be implying that

other companies are substandard or whatever, because they've got feature

Y that looks a lot like feature X from Company Z's screen reader Lava

Talk, the screen reader that spits fire! We should be going "awesome,

they realized what works already, that's gonna save me a lot of time if

I ever have to learn or use that screen reader, especially if it's on

short notice". We shouldn't be complaining that they're "catching up". I

say, are they doing the work? Great, that means more stuff I can use in

more situations. Any "catching up" being done is nothing but a benefit

to us, pure and simple. Here's one last example. Microsoft now has it so

you can use Narrator in safe mode. How awesome would it be if they had a

key you could hold down while Windows is booting, like the recovery keys

on a mac, that boots you into safe mode automatically? Right now I'm

pretty sure you still have to hit a key and pick from a menu, which

means sighted assistance, if you want to be sure you've got it right.

How cool would it be to hold down, I don't know, Windows-n on boot and

get safe mode with networking, and just waiting a bit and then launching

Narrator and geting speech? I don't know about anybody else, but it

sounds really nice to me, if I ever encounter a problem.

 

There, I think I'm done. Except to say, again, that we should be

praising companies who are trying to do right, even if we think it took

them long enough, instead of slamming them for that and inventing dumb

insulting names for them. If they're doing right, or trying to do right,

then that's what they're doing, and we should only encourage it. Sure,

if they mess up, tell them so, hopefully constructively. I'm not saying

we should only be nice and say only good things about the stuff

companies make. But by all the gods, have some perspective. Your names

are neither cute nor clever, and we're not twelve any more. I'm pretty

sure I'm like, 14 or something.

 

 

 


Eleni Vamvakari
 

From a grammatical perspective, I agree with you, John. I'm not one
to create silly names and such. I just explain my problems or ask my
questions in a clear manner, as I am not usually one for sarcasm or
satire. But I do think that, in general, people become offended far
too easily today.

I agree that certain universal keystrokes make sense. This is why I
like the standard menu interface in Windows, and why Firefox and Skype
annoyed me with their menu, tab, and list category combinations. It
didn't seem like a traditional menu structure to me, if that makes
sense.

Even though I have been using NVDA for many years, I never really
understood object navigation. It is quite different, in my mind at
least, from the cursors in JFW and the various modes in Vocal-Eyes. I
used a Mac in the days of Leopard and Snow Leopard, and the
interacting, along with a few other issues, most noteably the lack of
good support for Greek, are what made me return to Windows. Even now,
espeak is the only synthesizer that I know of which fully supports
polytonic Greek. At any rate, I hated having to interact with things
all of the time.

I have talking system recovery disks, so I doubt I would ever need
safe mode. But I would love to be able to boot into the bios!

On 24/07/2018, David Moore <jesusloves1966@gmail.com> wrote:
Here is my wisdom!
If you have nothing good to say, say nothing, that would be so much better!
If you have a problem with someone, say it to their face, quit being evasive
with members on the list, who can do nothing about your gripe. Talk to MS
yourself!
David Moore


Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: John Isige
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2018 3:35 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] My thoughts on offensive company names and so on.

Well for me, I don't care about the offensiveness so much. What I care
about is stuff like:

Last night I was using elocrash with Skum from Microslop and I tried
with the shark and Microslop Notreader and NVDA and nothing was
working"! I'm sorry, l33t (look it up if you don't know/remember) wasn't
cool back in the 80s when it got started, and this stuff that's
essentially an equivalent of it isn't cool either. I know, just like the
l33t k1dz whu t0t3z roxxorz! you think you're terribly terribly clever,
but just as they weren't, really, you're not.

That's my problem, having to parse whatever dumb gibberish people think
is clever this week because all they can do is puns, the lowest form of
humor, on company names that really don't work anyway, instead of coming
up with something that's actually witty and meaningful. You see what I
did there? I actually wrote real words that everybody can understand and
stuff instead of going "shut up, John Isicky"! It also seems really odd
to insult a company you just got done saying did something right, but
maybe that's just that irony all you young people are supposed to be
into nowadays, and I'm just too old to get it. Besides, you will never
beat the pun on HP-UX, which is both obvious and funny, so really,
there's no point to it all anyway. I'll leave the working out of that
pun as an exercise for the reader.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with the offensive part too. While I realize
companies, e.g. Microsoft, have a history to live down, a lot of that
was quite a while ago. Plus, how are they ever going to live it down or
get better if we're not giving them a chance, semi-praising them on the
one hand and insulting them on the other? You think that will make them
want to keep putting in the work for accessibility? Also, what in the
world is up with this "they're playing catch-up" stuff? Ooooo, Apple did
accessibility right, they showed everybody how it's done! OK, and then
you're upset that somebody's copying that? I mean, if Apple's so super
special awesome and all, shouldn't we want everybody and their fifth
cousin to copy them, such that we have proper accessibility on every
conceivable platform? Why are you complaining that other companies are
doing something like that? That should be, as I believe I've said when
it was mentioned that keyboard commands were being changed to be more
like other screen readers, exactly what we want. For example, my wife
bought a used mac for us. I read this article:

https://www.applevis.com/blog/apple-mac-os-x/debunking-common-myths-about-voiceover-mac

Looking at the web section, I see we've got commands to jump by headings
and all, and it seems pretty similar to other screen readers. Great!
That's less time wasted in trying to figure out how to do simple things,
and more time using the mac. Obviously I want to get more familiar with
the mac way of doing things and not just do what I'm doing on Windows,
because maybe mac does something better. But that will happen over time.
If I want to sit down and start checking something out to see what it's
like, the more barriers in my way like "learn an entirely different set
of commands and things just to navigate a web page", the less likely I
am to want to use that thing.

I'm not suggesting that every screen reader should work exactly like
every other screen reader. I'm saying that there should be a base set of
things that are pretty similar, e.g. I can do a lot of the same basic
stuff to get around in Android that I can do to get around in iOS. Sure,
if I really want to use either one, I'm going to have to learn their
specifics, but in general, I can pick up either kind of device with a
screen reader active and start using it to do stuff, no problem. You can
see this with NVDA too. What's the thing most people get hung up on?

That's right, object navigation. I use it a lot more now, particularly
if something isn't reading what I think it should, but it was confusing
for a bit until I got Joseph's tutorial. But you know what? Part of that
was because it was different from other screen readers I'd used, but
part of it was that I didn't have to worry about using it for a long
time, because NVDA does what I'm talking about. If you've used NVDA and
JFW, as I assume most people here have, you know there's a lot of stuff
that's similar between them in how you access Windows, e.g. using the
arrow keys and such.

But maybe you actually find object navigation better than the jaws
cursor. I'll give you an example, on the mac if you're reading a table,
you interact with it. Then you read it like you read any other thing. So
there's only, potentially, one extra command to remember, you have to
interact first. I don't have to try and learn a whole new set of table
navigation keystrokes. I used that example because it's fresh in my mind
and I honestly don't remember enough about how JFW did things to say
what's better or worse between it and NVDA.

Anyway the point to this rambling is that we shouldn't be implying that
other companies are substandard or whatever, because they've got feature
Y that looks a lot like feature X from Company Z's screen reader Lava
Talk, the screen reader that spits fire! We should be going "awesome,
they realized what works already, that's gonna save me a lot of time if
I ever have to learn or use that screen reader, especially if it's on
short notice". We shouldn't be complaining that they're "catching up". I
say, are they doing the work? Great, that means more stuff I can use in
more situations. Any "catching up" being done is nothing but a benefit
to us, pure and simple. Here's one last example. Microsoft now has it so
you can use Narrator in safe mode. How awesome would it be if they had a
key you could hold down while Windows is booting, like the recovery keys
on a mac, that boots you into safe mode automatically? Right now I'm
pretty sure you still have to hit a key and pick from a menu, which
means sighted assistance, if you want to be sure you've got it right.
How cool would it be to hold down, I don't know, Windows-n on boot and
get safe mode with networking, and just waiting a bit and then launching
Narrator and geting speech? I don't know about anybody else, but it
sounds really nice to me, if I ever encounter a problem.

There, I think I'm done. Except to say, again, that we should be
praising companies who are trying to do right, even if we think it took
them long enough, instead of slamming them for that and inventing dumb
insulting names for them. If they're doing right, or trying to do right,
then that's what they're doing, and we should only encourage it. Sure,
if they mess up, tell them so, hopefully constructively. I'm not saying
we should only be nice and say only good things about the stuff
companies make. But by all the gods, have some perspective. Your names
are neither cute nor clever, and we're not twelve any more. I'm pretty
sure I'm like, 14 or something.







--
Facebook: elvam2167@gmail.com

anyaudio.net: elvam2167

Skype: elvam2167


Gene
 

This has nothing to do with what I agree is a general hypersensativity to being offended.  This is a specific case where it is understandable and reasonable for people to be offended.  People often like programs they use.  They may respect the design or particularly like certain features and so forth.  They may think a company does a good or reasonable job regarding accessibility.  They may simply dislike or resent disparaging remarks that are inaccurate or highly questionable regarding programs or companies for such reasons. 
 
For example, I like Eloquence.  I consider it the best all around synthesizer available at this time for the way a lot of blind people use synthesizers. It is responsive, doesn't use a lot of computer resources, and pronounces an impressive number of words correctly.  If someone doesn't like Eloquence and tghey express their dislike in a reasonable way, presenting reasons, facts and opinions, that's one thing.  Giving a product a disparaging and not only that, a factually inaccurate name is something else again.  It is a fact, not an opinion, that Eloquence doesn't crash more than a well designed program.  It may cause those who don't know much or anything about the synthesizer to wonder if there is something wrong with it.  If I were just talking with someone and they used the name Elocrash in conversation, I would be annoyed and discuss or debate the point, but I consider it highly inappropriate to spread factually incorrect information on a public list in this way.  There are users at a wide variety of knowledge on the list.  And these names, are a way of spreading negative and inaccurate information. 
 
It is simply not reasonable nor correct to minimize this issue by the everyone is too easily offended these days argument. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2018 4:03 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] My thoughts on offensive company names and so on.

From a grammatical perspective, I agree with you, John.  I'm not one
to create silly names and such.  I just explain my problems or ask my
questions in a clear manner, as I am not usually one for sarcasm or
satire.  But I do think that, in general, people become offended far
too easily today.

I agree that certain universal keystrokes make sense.  This is why I
like the standard menu interface in Windows, and why Firefox and Skype
annoyed me with their menu, tab, and list category combinations.  It
didn't seem like a traditional menu structure to me, if that makes
sense.

Even though I have been using NVDA for many years, I never really
understood object navigation.  It is quite different, in my mind at
least, from the cursors in JFW and the various modes in Vocal-Eyes.  I
used a Mac in the days of Leopard and Snow Leopard, and the
interacting, along with a few other issues, most noteably the lack of
good support for Greek, are what made me return to Windows.  Even now,
espeak is the only synthesizer that I know of which fully supports
polytonic Greek.  At any rate, I hated having to interact with things
all of the time.

I have talking system recovery disks, so I doubt I would ever need
safe mode.  But I would love to be able to boot into the bios!

On 24/07/2018, David Moore <jesusloves1966@...> wrote:
> Here is my wisdom!
> If you have nothing good to say, say nothing, that would be so much better!
> If you have a problem with someone, say it to their face, quit being evasive
> with members on the list, who can do nothing about your gripe. Talk to MS
> yourself!
> David Moore
>
>
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>
> From: John Isige
> Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2018 3:35 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: [nvda] My thoughts on offensive company names and so on.
>
> Well for me, I don't care about the offensiveness so much. What I care
> about is stuff like:
>
> Last night I was using elocrash with Skum from Microslop and I tried
> with the shark and Microslop Notreader and NVDA and nothing was
> working"! I'm sorry, l33t (look it up if you don't know/remember) wasn't
> cool back in the 80s when it got started, and this stuff that's
> essentially an equivalent of it isn't cool either. I know, just like the
> l33t k1dz whu t0t3z roxxorz! you think you're terribly terribly clever,
> but just as they weren't, really, you're not.
>
> That's my problem, having to parse whatever dumb gibberish people think
> is clever this week because all they can do is puns, the lowest form of
> humor, on company names that really don't work anyway, instead of coming
> up with something that's actually witty and meaningful. You see what I
> did there? I actually wrote real words that everybody can understand and
> stuff instead of going "shut up, John Isicky"! It also seems really odd
> to insult a company you just got done saying did something right, but
> maybe that's just that irony all you young people are supposed to be
> into nowadays, and I'm just too old to get it. Besides, you will never
> beat the pun on HP-UX, which is both obvious and funny, so really,
> there's no point to it all anyway. I'll leave the working out of that
> pun as an exercise for the reader.
>
> Don't get me wrong, I agree with the offensive part too. While I realize
> companies, e.g. Microsoft, have a history to live down, a lot of that
> was quite a while ago. Plus, how are they ever going to live it down or
> get better if we're not giving them a chance, semi-praising them on the
> one hand and insulting them on the other? You think that will make them
> want to keep putting in the work for accessibility? Also, what in the
> world is up with this "they're playing catch-up" stuff? Ooooo, Apple did
> accessibility right, they showed everybody how it's done! OK, and then
> you're upset that somebody's copying that? I mean, if Apple's so super
> special awesome and all, shouldn't we want everybody and their fifth
> cousin to copy them, such that we have proper accessibility on every
> conceivable platform? Why are you complaining that other companies are
> doing something like that? That should be, as I believe I've said when
> it was mentioned that keyboard commands were being changed to be more
> like other screen readers, exactly what we want. For example, my wife
> bought a used mac for us. I read this article:
>
> https://www.applevis.com/blog/apple-mac-os-x/debunking-common-myths-about-voiceover-mac
>
> Looking at the web section, I see we've got commands to jump by headings
> and all, and it seems pretty similar to other screen readers. Great!
> That's less time wasted in trying to figure out how to do simple things,
> and more time using the mac. Obviously I want to get more familiar with
> the mac way of doing things and not just do what I'm doing on Windows,
> because maybe mac does something better. But that will happen over time.
> If I want to sit down and start checking something out to see what it's
> like, the more barriers in my way like "learn an entirely different set
> of commands and things just to navigate a web page", the less likely I
> am to want to use that thing.
>
> I'm not suggesting that every screen reader should work exactly like
> every other screen reader. I'm saying that there should be a base set of
> things that are pretty similar, e.g. I can do a lot of the same basic
> stuff to get around in Android that I can do to get around in iOS. Sure,
> if I really want to use either one, I'm going to have to learn their
> specifics, but in general, I can pick up either kind of device with a
> screen reader active and start using it to do stuff, no problem. You can
> see this with NVDA too. What's the thing most people get hung up on?
>
> That's right, object navigation. I use it a lot more now, particularly
> if something isn't reading what I think it should, but it was confusing
> for a bit until I got Joseph's tutorial. But you know what? Part of that
> was because it was different from other screen readers I'd used, but
> part of it was that I didn't have to worry about using it for a long
> time, because NVDA does what I'm talking about. If you've used NVDA and
> JFW, as I assume most people here have, you know there's a lot of stuff
> that's similar between them in how you access Windows, e.g. using the
> arrow keys and such.
>
> But maybe you actually find object navigation better than the jaws
> cursor. I'll give you an example, on the mac if you're reading a table,
> you interact with it. Then you read it like you read any other thing. So
> there's only, potentially, one extra command to remember, you have to
> interact first. I don't have to try and learn a whole new set of table
> navigation keystrokes. I used that example because it's fresh in my mind
> and I honestly don't remember enough about how JFW did things to say
> what's better or worse between it and NVDA.
>
> Anyway the point to this rambling is that we shouldn't be implying that
> other companies are substandard or whatever, because they've got feature
> Y that looks a lot like feature X from Company Z's screen reader Lava
> Talk, the screen reader that spits fire! We should be going "awesome,
> they realized what works already, that's gonna save me a lot of time if
> I ever have to learn or use that screen reader, especially if it's on
> short notice". We shouldn't be complaining that they're "catching up". I
> say, are they doing the work? Great, that means more stuff I can use in
> more situations. Any "catching up" being done is nothing but a benefit
> to us, pure and simple. Here's one last example. Microsoft now has it so
> you can use Narrator in safe mode. How awesome would it be if they had a
> key you could hold down while Windows is booting, like the recovery keys
> on a mac, that boots you into safe mode automatically? Right now I'm
> pretty sure you still have to hit a key and pick from a menu, which
> means sighted assistance, if you want to be sure you've got it right.
> How cool would it be to hold down, I don't know, Windows-n on boot and
> get safe mode with networking, and just waiting a bit and then launching
> Narrator and geting speech? I don't know about anybody else, but it
> sounds really nice to me, if I ever encounter a problem.
>
> There, I think I'm done. Except to say, again, that we should be
> praising companies who are trying to do right, even if we think it took
> them long enough, instead of slamming them for that and inventing dumb
> insulting names for them. If they're doing right, or trying to do right,
> then that's what they're doing, and we should only encourage it. Sure,
> if they mess up, tell them so, hopefully constructively. I'm not saying
> we should only be nice and say only good things about the stuff
> companies make. But by all the gods, have some perspective. Your names
> are neither cute nor clever, and we're not twelve any more. I'm pretty
> sure I'm like, 14 or something.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


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Facebook: elvam2167@...

anyaudio.net: elvam2167

Skype: elvam2167



Tyler Wood
 

Hi,

I actually did the exact same thing regarding mac.

Interacting with things is far from intuitive in my mind and sometimes especially in windows 10, object navigation is a little frustrating because I feel like I'm doing the exact same thing when screen review should get me the exact same information even quicker. - for instance, where windows 7 used to allow it certain areas, 10 has very few places that it comes in handy recently at least for me. This is the fault of noone, it is simply the times we live in. There isn't a magic program that is going to come and fix everyone's problems and gripes. Leaving feedback, because microsoft really does listen, is the best course of action. I applaud this company for everything they've done recently.



But, I certainly think basic accessibility and most notably choice has come leaps and bounds even from a few years ago. We have quite a few different web browsers that get the job done on windows now - from edge to internet explorer, firefox and chrome. I don't like firefox these days either though some sites do work better with it, so I keep it around.


Getting into the bios would be an absolutely wonderful thing. I wonder if microsoft will ever incorporate talking bios into their surface line of computers?

On 24-Jul-2018 4:03 AM, Eleni Vamvakari wrote:
From a grammatical perspective, I agree with you, John. I'm not one
to create silly names and such. I just explain my problems or ask my
questions in a clear manner, as I am not usually one for sarcasm or
satire. But I do think that, in general, people become offended far
too easily today.

I agree that certain universal keystrokes make sense. This is why I
like the standard menu interface in Windows, and why Firefox and Skype
annoyed me with their menu, tab, and list category combinations. It
didn't seem like a traditional menu structure to me, if that makes
sense.

Even though I have been using NVDA for many years, I never really
understood object navigation. It is quite different, in my mind at
least, from the cursors in JFW and the various modes in Vocal-Eyes. I
used a Mac in the days of Leopard and Snow Leopard, and the
interacting, along with a few other issues, most noteably the lack of
good support for Greek, are what made me return to Windows. Even now,
espeak is the only synthesizer that I know of which fully supports
polytonic Greek. At any rate, I hated having to interact with things
all of the time.

I have talking system recovery disks, so I doubt I would ever need
safe mode. But I would love to be able to boot into the bios!

On 24/07/2018, David Moore <jesusloves1966@gmail.com> wrote:
Here is my wisdom!
If you have nothing good to say, say nothing, that would be so much better!
If you have a problem with someone, say it to their face, quit being evasive
with members on the list, who can do nothing about your gripe. Talk to MS
yourself!
David Moore


Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: John Isige
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2018 3:35 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] My thoughts on offensive company names and so on.

Well for me, I don't care about the offensiveness so much. What I care
about is stuff like:

Last night I was using elocrash with Skum from Microslop and I tried
with the shark and Microslop Notreader and NVDA and nothing was
working"! I'm sorry, l33t (look it up if you don't know/remember) wasn't
cool back in the 80s when it got started, and this stuff that's
essentially an equivalent of it isn't cool either. I know, just like the
l33t k1dz whu t0t3z roxxorz! you think you're terribly terribly clever,
but just as they weren't, really, you're not.

That's my problem, having to parse whatever dumb gibberish people think
is clever this week because all they can do is puns, the lowest form of
humor, on company names that really don't work anyway, instead of coming
up with something that's actually witty and meaningful. You see what I
did there? I actually wrote real words that everybody can understand and
stuff instead of going "shut up, John Isicky"! It also seems really odd
to insult a company you just got done saying did something right, but
maybe that's just that irony all you young people are supposed to be
into nowadays, and I'm just too old to get it. Besides, you will never
beat the pun on HP-UX, which is both obvious and funny, so really,
there's no point to it all anyway. I'll leave the working out of that
pun as an exercise for the reader.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with the offensive part too. While I realize
companies, e.g. Microsoft, have a history to live down, a lot of that
was quite a while ago. Plus, how are they ever going to live it down or
get better if we're not giving them a chance, semi-praising them on the
one hand and insulting them on the other? You think that will make them
want to keep putting in the work for accessibility? Also, what in the
world is up with this "they're playing catch-up" stuff? Ooooo, Apple did
accessibility right, they showed everybody how it's done! OK, and then
you're upset that somebody's copying that? I mean, if Apple's so super
special awesome and all, shouldn't we want everybody and their fifth
cousin to copy them, such that we have proper accessibility on every
conceivable platform? Why are you complaining that other companies are
doing something like that? That should be, as I believe I've said when
it was mentioned that keyboard commands were being changed to be more
like other screen readers, exactly what we want. For example, my wife
bought a used mac for us. I read this article:

https://www.applevis.com/blog/apple-mac-os-x/debunking-common-myths-about-voiceover-mac

Looking at the web section, I see we've got commands to jump by headings
and all, and it seems pretty similar to other screen readers. Great!
That's less time wasted in trying to figure out how to do simple things,
and more time using the mac. Obviously I want to get more familiar with
the mac way of doing things and not just do what I'm doing on Windows,
because maybe mac does something better. But that will happen over time.
If I want to sit down and start checking something out to see what it's
like, the more barriers in my way like "learn an entirely different set
of commands and things just to navigate a web page", the less likely I
am to want to use that thing.

I'm not suggesting that every screen reader should work exactly like
every other screen reader. I'm saying that there should be a base set of
things that are pretty similar, e.g. I can do a lot of the same basic
stuff to get around in Android that I can do to get around in iOS. Sure,
if I really want to use either one, I'm going to have to learn their
specifics, but in general, I can pick up either kind of device with a
screen reader active and start using it to do stuff, no problem. You can
see this with NVDA too. What's the thing most people get hung up on?

That's right, object navigation. I use it a lot more now, particularly
if something isn't reading what I think it should, but it was confusing
for a bit until I got Joseph's tutorial. But you know what? Part of that
was because it was different from other screen readers I'd used, but
part of it was that I didn't have to worry about using it for a long
time, because NVDA does what I'm talking about. If you've used NVDA and
JFW, as I assume most people here have, you know there's a lot of stuff
that's similar between them in how you access Windows, e.g. using the
arrow keys and such.

But maybe you actually find object navigation better than the jaws
cursor. I'll give you an example, on the mac if you're reading a table,
you interact with it. Then you read it like you read any other thing. So
there's only, potentially, one extra command to remember, you have to
interact first. I don't have to try and learn a whole new set of table
navigation keystrokes. I used that example because it's fresh in my mind
and I honestly don't remember enough about how JFW did things to say
what's better or worse between it and NVDA.

Anyway the point to this rambling is that we shouldn't be implying that
other companies are substandard or whatever, because they've got feature
Y that looks a lot like feature X from Company Z's screen reader Lava
Talk, the screen reader that spits fire! We should be going "awesome,
they realized what works already, that's gonna save me a lot of time if
I ever have to learn or use that screen reader, especially if it's on
short notice". We shouldn't be complaining that they're "catching up". I
say, are they doing the work? Great, that means more stuff I can use in
more situations. Any "catching up" being done is nothing but a benefit
to us, pure and simple. Here's one last example. Microsoft now has it so
you can use Narrator in safe mode. How awesome would it be if they had a
key you could hold down while Windows is booting, like the recovery keys
on a mac, that boots you into safe mode automatically? Right now I'm
pretty sure you still have to hit a key and pick from a menu, which
means sighted assistance, if you want to be sure you've got it right.
How cool would it be to hold down, I don't know, Windows-n on boot and
get safe mode with networking, and just waiting a bit and then launching
Narrator and geting speech? I don't know about anybody else, but it
sounds really nice to me, if I ever encounter a problem.

There, I think I'm done. Except to say, again, that we should be
praising companies who are trying to do right, even if we think it took
them long enough, instead of slamming them for that and inventing dumb
insulting names for them. If they're doing right, or trying to do right,
then that's what they're doing, and we should only encourage it. Sure,
if they mess up, tell them so, hopefully constructively. I'm not saying
we should only be nice and say only good things about the stuff
companies make. But by all the gods, have some perspective. Your names
are neither cute nor clever, and we're not twelve any more. I'm pretty
sure I'm like, 14 or something.








 

On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 09:39 AM, Gene wrote:
I consider it highly inappropriate to spread factually incorrect information on a public list in this way.  There are users at a wide variety of knowledge on the list.
Gene, not that I don't agree with you in principle, but by now you should know very well that this sort of childish behavior is not going away.

One of the things we can do on lists like this is to present reasoned and factual counterpoint to these rants, and to teach "newbies" how to think critically about what's being said.   The internet as a whole is awash with baseless garbage and two of the most valuable skills we can teach are to "consider the source" and "do your homework/due diligence."

The logical complement to the old saying, "If it seems to good to be true it probably isn't," is, "If it seems too bad to be true, it probably isn't, either."   Companies, products, software, etc., don't develop huge user bases (relative to markets they're serving) if they really are substandard.  The competition is just too intense and widespread.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


Eleni Vamvakari
 

I use XP and 7 exclusively, so screen review is still quite valuable
to me. I was frustrated with the constant "program not responding"
errors, the freezing, and the slowness of Firefox to the point that I
have switched to K-Melion Goana. I find the experience to be much
quicker and smoother.

It should be fairly obvious when someone is being sarcastic and when
he is being serious. If someone is that concerned or curious, he can
ask. I love good research and facts, but not everything in life is
like that. People have opinions. Sometimes, they're grounded in
fact, and sometimes, they are based on emotions. The fact that
someone is new to something shouldn't impair his ability to actually
learn about it.

On 24/07/2018, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 09:39 AM, Gene wrote:


I consider it highly inappropriate to spread factually incorrect
information on a public list in this way.  There are users at a wide
variety of knowledge on the list.
Gene, not that I don't agree with you in principle, but by now you should
know very well that this sort of childish behavior is not going away.

One of the things we can do on lists like this is to present reasoned and
factual counterpoint to these rants, and to teach "newbies" how to think
critically about what's being said.   The internet as a whole is awash with
baseless garbage and two of the most valuable skills we can teach are to
"consider the source" and "do your homework/due diligence."

The logical complement to the old saying, "If it seems to good to be true it
probably isn't," is, "If it seems too bad to be true, it probably isn't,
either."   Companies, products, software, etc., don't develop huge user
bases (relative to markets they're serving) if they really are substandard.
The competition is just too intense and widespread.

--

Brian *-* Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134

   A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for
all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel



--
Facebook: elvam2167@gmail.com

anyaudio.net: elvam2167

Skype: elvam2167


 

On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 12:26 PM, Eleni Vamvakari wrote:
The fact that someone is new to something shouldn't impair his ability to actually learn about it.
But being fed a stream of inaccurate information makes that a much higher hurdle to jump.

I don't disagree with you about sarcasm or arch humor, either.   That's generally different from many of the full-blown fact-free rants one often encounters that make assertions that don't hold up to any examination.  Hence the reason I encourage people not to "buy" anything, whether utterly glowing or utterly negative, without getting out there and seeing what the consensus is and being circumspect about what sources they trust when doing that research.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


 

If you aren't happy with a service's management decisions, the
technology isn't at fault for supporting your preferences and then
taking it away. That's why retired platforms still work better then
cloud because you host it yourself and you know you aren't making any
changes to it unless your hand is on the controls. That's more secure
then any cloud service I've ever trusted seeming as how someone else
stores your login no matter if they can or can't verify it is you who
is the account holder or not.

On 7/24/18, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 12:26 PM, Eleni Vamvakari wrote:


The fact that someone is new to something shouldn't impair his ability to
actually learn about it.
But being fed a stream of inaccurate information makes that a much higher
hurdle to jump.

I don't disagree with you about sarcasm or arch humor, either.   That's
generally different from many of the full-blown fact-free rants one often
encounters that make assertions that don't hold up to any examination.
Hence the reason I encourage people not to "buy" anything, whether utterly
glowing or utterly negative, without getting out there and seeing what the
consensus is and being circumspect about what sources they trust when doing
that research.

--

Brian *-* Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134

   A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for
all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel