Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA


 

Hello All,

          What follows is a duplicate of a post I just made on the JAWS for Windows group.  I am posting here not because I expect any answers with regard to JAWS but because I also described what I'm seeing with NVDA that has me confused as well.  I do not understand how what presents as a link doesn't show up in the links elements list but does in both form fields and buttons, when it is neither and I wouldn't think it could be both a form field and a button.  I am also not seeing the Disability Support link (or something similar to that, I don't have JAWS handy to pull up the exact name of the link) that I am positive I did see under JAWS.  I thought about activating that link and reporting that a full duplication of the same information given as the click-through text for an item's link in the alternate text for its image is overkill and makes matters worse, not better, in the context of the cart.

-------------------------------
Hello All,

        During a session today I encountered something I've never encountered before with JAWS:  An inaccessible link that's clearly visible to me.   In addition I could not find a workaround that allowed for what I consider a reasonable way to hear the list of what's in your cart.

         I would have expected that the item links that show up in the cart would have been implemented as headings, much like the item links are all headings at level 2 on the search results page.  They don't show up in the headings list, though.  The closest I can get to the items list is to go to the Shopping Cart heading and start reading from there.  For each item in the cart there exists a "Delete" link which allows you to do exactly what it says.  Almost anyone has occasional need or desire to nuke an item or items from their cart, but I can find absolutely no way to access these Delete links for each item.  They do not show up even in the list of links for the page.  In playing with this same page with NVDA the results are the same when I look at either a list of the headings or links.  What's interesting though is if I change the element being looked at to "Form Fields" these delete links show up in that list.  If these things are form fields then they're the best disguised form fields I've ever seen.  They are visually presented as links and I'd expect they'd be in a list of links, not form fields.  They also show up in NVDA's list of Buttons, and they certainly are not presented as buttons.  I've done the NVDA experimentation this evening, at my leisure, so I had no idea about this when I first encountered it.  It still seems utterly bizarre.

         What, if anything, am I doing wrong here?

         It's also interesting to see how Amazon went overboard with alternate text for item images.  When you get JAWS to begin reading the cart in its long and meandering way the full item name is always presented twice since the alternate text for the item image is a word for word copy of the click-through text used for the item link itself.  It makes the whole process of even trying to review one's cart incredibly tedious.  I notice that when JAWS is being used there is a link that shows up for Disability Support (or a very similar phrase) and I can't seem to find that using NVDA, but I could also be on a different version of the cart page than I was looking at earlier today.

          If anyone knows "the collection of slick tricks" for efficiently interacting with the Amazon Cart page I'd love to hear them.
-------------------------------
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


ely.r@...
 

Brian,

I am running NVDA with no addons and Firefox 6.0.1.

 

I went to the heading titled Shopping Cart and tabbed through my cart that had only one item.

First tab was the image with the alt-tag of the title of the gook.

Next tab took me to the link to the item page on Amazon.

Next was to the name of the publisher which was a link. ,

This was followed by gift options not available followed by the text “learn more” which was a link.”

Next two tabs were to buttons. first of these was labeled “Delete and the title of the gook.

The second button was “save for later and the title of the book”

Tabs following the active cart went to “saved for later.

Writing that all out makes it sound confusing even to me who just wrote it.

Basically using , Next heading will get you to the shopping cart and then tabs will move you through all the items and options in the cart

Rick

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 7:38 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

 

Hello All,

          What follows is a duplicate of a post I just made on the JAWS for Windows group.  I am posting here not because I expect any answers with regard to JAWS but because I also described what I'm seeing with NVDA that has me confused as well.  I do not understand how what presents as a link doesn't show up in the links elements list but does in both form fields and buttons, when it is neither and I wouldn't think it could be both a form field and a button.  I am also not seeing the Disability Support link (or something similar to that, I don't have JAWS handy to pull up the exact name of the link) that I am positive I did see under JAWS.  I thought about activating that link and reporting that a full duplication of the same information given as the click-through text for an item's link in the alternate text for its image is overkill and makes matters worse, not better, in the context of the cart.

-------------------------------
Hello All,

        During a session today I encountered something I've never encountered before with JAWS:  An inaccessible link that's clearly visible to me.   In addition I could not find a workaround that allowed for what I consider a reasonable way to hear the list of what's in your cart.

         I would have expected that the item links that show up in the cart would have been implemented as headings, much like the item links are all headings at level 2 on the search results page.  They don't show up in the headings list, though.  The closest I can get to the items list is to go to the Shopping Cart heading and start reading from there.  For each item in the cart there exists a "Delete" link which allows you to do exactly what it says.  Almost anyone has occasional need or desire to nuke an item or items from their cart, but I can find absolutely no way to access these Delete links for each item.  They do not show up even in the list of links for the page.  In playing with this same page with NVDA the results are the same when I look at either a list of the headings or links.  What's interesting though is if I change the element being looked at to "Form Fields" these delete links show up in that list.  If these things are form fields then they're the best disguised form fields I've ever seen.  They are visually presented as links and I'd expect they'd be in a list of links, not form fields.  They also show up in NVDA's list of Buttons, and they certainly are not presented as buttons.  I've done the NVDA experimentation this evening, at my leisure, so I had no idea about this when I first encountered it.  It still seems utterly bizarre.

         What, if anything, am I doing wrong here?

         It's also interesting to see how Amazon went overboard with alternate text for item images.  When you get JAWS to begin reading the cart in its long and meandering way the full item name is always presented twice since the alternate text for the item image is a word for word copy of the click-through text used for the item link itself.  It makes the whole process of even trying to review one's cart incredibly tedious.  I notice that when JAWS is being used there is a link that shows up for Disability Support (or a very similar phrase) and I can't seem to find that using NVDA, but I could also be on a different version of the cart page than I was looking at earlier today.

          If anyone knows "the collection of slick tricks" for efficiently interacting with the Amazon Cart page I'd love to hear them.
-------------------------------
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


 

Rick,

          Thanks.  I've figured some of this out but it is still insane.  Being sighted, it is making me crazy that there is a trend toward making objects look like other objects that they are not.   I cannot fathom why you would make a button visually appear as a link.  I've experienced the reverse, too.

           It does no one any good on either side of the equation.  I hate telling a client something like "bring up the list of links" then use first letter navigation by 'D' to get to that Delete link that is not, in actuality, a link.  I came to the conclusion using the elements lists and cycling through the various elements. 

           I still find it strange that the Delete (which is accompanied by the full name of the item) button also shows up in the list of form fields.  Of course, when I see form field I think edit box, and perhaps that's my problem.  I don't think of "form field" as the generic term for "object that can be interacted with on the page," and am starting to think that may be what it actually means.

           It doesn't help when I'm trying to "think JAWS" and "think NVDA" in rapid succession, either, when it comes to terminology.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


Gene
 

This message is long but people may find it useful.  And it would be nice if those who teach enough to be known in the field, would advocate that teaching be changed as I describe. 
 
I have maintained for almost as long as I've known about these completely artificial, screen-reader created constructs, that they are not good to use on unfamiliar pages.  Now, you are giving excellent arguments why they shouldn't be used on familiar pages. 
 
In my strong opinion, people are much better off using the page as the page.  I realize it is the page as presented in the browse mode buffer, but it is the page as we generally work with it and it and it is not a completely artifically construct that goes outside of any unified page-as-structure gestault, to use a fancy word meaning picture or mental construction or framework.
 
It removes the user from the interface and makes him/her reliant on instructions on how to do this or that thing, as you illustrate in your example.  Just think how much more natural and directly working with the page, as presented, it is to tell the student, make sure you are at the top of the page, then search for the word cart.  Repeat the search if necessary until you get to the cart.  Then explain how to move through the cart.  I almost never use amazon so I don't recall the best ways.  And this is true on page after page.  What about a newspaper site where you want to find the editorial section on the home page.  Instead of using the links list, search for edito.  Repeat if necessary. 
 
What about a radio station site?  If you want to listen, search for listen.  If you find nothing, search for the word live or the word click.  Using the links list and using first letter navigation to find the word listen won't do any good if the link says click here to listen live.  Nor will using first letter navigation help when looking for the word "live."  You have to find the word click with first letter navigation.  It makes much more sense to search for words like listen and live or click using my method.  You will find the link every time because all three words are in the link, just not necessarily in the limited and arbitrary way this completely artificial structure imposes on looking for them. 
 
What if you are on an unfamiliar site and all you want to do is get contact information or use a contact form.  From the top of the page, search for the word "contact."  Again, what if the link says click here to contact us."  What if it says, to contact us, use this form, where "this form" is the link.  Best of luck finding it with the links list.  Using search, you will find the word contact and the link is in the sentence.  This also leads to micromemorization of pages.  Page x has something you switch to the headings list to find.  Site Y has something you look for using the buttons list.  It's not a natural way to work with web pages and you are reporting increasing dissatisfaction with how sites label structures that are not how they appear.
 
As I say from time to time, blind people shouldn't rely on the kindness of strangers when navigating web pages. 
 
I want to be very clear on the next point.  I am not aedvocating not using heading movement to skip navigation links on unfamiliar pages.  Nor am I saying that the skip blocks of links shoudn't be used.  Those uses move you past generally used patterns on a page to get to where you want.  I'm advocating against using the links list in examples such as I give above when you are on unfamiliar pages and want to find something more specific than the general beginning of text beyond a usually present structure such as navigation links.  And I'm advocating using search for finding something in the links list on unfamiliar pages where you cannot assume what the link says as the first word in the link.  I am also arguing that in teaching, using the links list removes the user from the structure of the page and should never be used or taught until the end of web page navigation instruction, if the instructor wants to teach it.  The mor3e the student works with the web page, the better.
 
The links list, this, what I consider, very improper way of teaching web page navigation has become unquestioned dogma.  I did a tutorial years ago on Internet use.  It is the only one I know that tells users, don't use the links list on unfamiliar pages.  If you want to use it on familiar pages, that's alright but I specifically tell them not to use the links list when using the tutorial even if they already are familiar with it. 
 
The other tutorials I've seen teach it near the beginning of teaching page navigation.  It's far past time someone with enough influence in the field that others will at least pay attention and think, make this case.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 10:05 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

Rick,

          Thanks.  I've figured some of this out but it is still insane.  Being sighted, it is making me crazy that there is a trend toward making objects look like other objects that they are not.   I cannot fathom why you would make a button visually appear as a link.  I've experienced the reverse, too.

           It does no one any good on either side of the equation.  I hate telling a client something like "bring up the list of links" then use first letter navigation by 'D' to get to that Delete link that is not, in actuality, a link.  I came to the conclusion using the elements lists and cycling through the various elements. 

           I still find it strange that the Delete (which is accompanied by the full name of the item) button also shows up in the list of form fields.  Of course, when I see form field I think edit box, and perhaps that's my problem.  I don't think of "form field" as the generic term for "object that can be interacted with on the page," and am starting to think that may be what it actually means.

           It doesn't help when I'm trying to "think JAWS" and "think NVDA" in rapid succession, either, when it comes to terminology.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


John Isige
 

Agreed. I almost never use the lists, I can't remember when the last
time was that I used one, though I probably did once. Let's see,
headings, sometimes landmarks if I remember them, tab, and arrows, and
page-up or down if I know I'm skipping some fairly significant text, and
find from top of page as you've thoroughly described, naturally. That's
pretty much how I navigate pages. Usually stuff like 'n' doesn't work
for me on pages, same with visited and unvisited links. That's under
multiple screen readers, mind you. So to my mind, you should at least
know the commands if for no other reason than you'll know what to do
when the ones you find to be easier don't work.


I wouldn't go so far as to say use screen layout under NVDA, but just
for fun I'm trying it. What used to happen to me is that if you let it
read the page automatically, it would read a line of links, but if you
used the arrows, it would only read the first link, and that just messed
with my head. But at least in my quick Facebook test in latest Firefox,
it actually read the whole set of links with the arrows, so now I'm
giving it a shot to see what it's like.

On 7/27/2018 0:02, Gene wrote:
This message is long but people may find it useful.  And it would be
nice if those who teach enough to be known in the field, would
advocate that teaching be changed as I describe.
I have maintained for almost as long as I've known about these
completely artificial, screen-reader created constructs, that they are
not good to use on unfamiliar pages.  Now, you are giving excellent
arguments why they shouldn't be used on familiar pages.
In my strong opinion, people are much better off using the page as the
page.  I realize it is the page as presented in the browse mode
buffer, but it is the page as we generally work with it and it and it
is not a completely artifically construct that goes outside of any
unified page-as-structure gestault, to use a fancy word meaning
picture or mental construction or framework.
It removes the user from the interface and makes him/her reliant on
instructions on how to do this or that thing, as you illustrate in
your example.  Just think how much more natural and directly working
with the page, as presented, it is to tell the student, make sure you
are at the top of the page, then search for the word cart.  Repeat the
search if necessary until you get to the cart.  Then explain how to
move through the cart.  I almost never use amazon so I don't recall
the best ways.  And this is true on page after page.  What about a
newspaper site where you want to find the editorial section on the
home page.  Instead of using the links list, search for edito.  Repeat
if necessary.
What about a radio station site?  If you want to listen, search for
listen.  If you find nothing, search for the word live or the word
click.  Using the links list and using first letter navigation to find
the word listen won't do any good if the link says click here to
listen live.  Nor will using first letter navigation help when looking
for the word "live."  You have to find the word click with first
letter navigation.  It makes much more sense to search for words like
listen and live or click using my method.  You will find the link
every time because all three words are in the link, just not
necessarily in the limited and arbitrary way this completely
artificial structure imposes on looking for them.
What if you are on an unfamiliar site and all you want to do is get
contact information or use a contact form.  From the top of the page,
search for the word "contact."  Again, what if the link says click
here to contact us."  What if it says, to contact us, use this form,
where "this form" is the link.  Best of luck finding it with the links
list.  Using search, you will find the word contact and the link is in
the sentence.  This also leads to micromemorization of pages.  Page x
has something you switch to the headings list to find.  Site Y has
something you look for using the buttons list.  It's not a natural way
to work with web pages and you are reporting increasing
dissatisfaction with how sites label structures that are not how they
appear.
As I say from time to time, blind people shouldn't rely on the
kindness of strangers when navigating web pages.
I want to be very clear on the next point.  I am not aedvocating not
using heading movement to skip navigation links on unfamiliar pages. 
Nor am I saying that the skip blocks of links shoudn't be used.  Those
uses move you past generally used patterns on a page to get to where
you want.  I'm advocating against using the links list in examples
such as I give above when you are on unfamiliar pages and want to find
something more specific than the general beginning of text beyond a
usually present structure such as navigation links.  And I'm
advocating using search for finding something in the links list on
unfamiliar pages where you cannot assume what the link says as the
first word in the link.  I am also arguing that in teaching, using the
links list removes the user from the structure of the page and should
never be used or taught until the end of web page navigation
instruction, if the instructor wants to teach it.  The mor3e the
student works with the web page, the better.
The links list, this, what I consider, very improper way of teaching
web page navigation has become unquestioned dogma.  I did a tutorial
years ago on Internet use.  It is the only one I know that tells
users, don't use the links list on unfamiliar pages.  If you want to
use it on familiar pages, that's alright but I specifically tell them
not to use the links list when using the tutorial even if they already
are familiar with it.
The other tutorials I've seen teach it near the beginning of teaching
page navigation.  It's far past time someone with enough influence in
the field that others will at least pay attention and think, make this
case.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Brian Vogel <mailto:britechguy@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Thursday, July 26, 2018 10:05 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

Rick,

          Thanks.  I've figured some of this out but it is still
insane.  Being sighted, it is making me crazy that there is a trend
toward making objects look like other objects that they are not.   I
cannot fathom why you would make a button visually appear as a link. 
I've experienced the reverse, too.

           It does no one any good on either side of the equation.  I
hate telling a client something like "bring up the list of links" then
use first letter navigation by 'D' to get to that Delete link that is
not, in actuality, a link.  I came to the conclusion using the
elements lists and cycling through the various elements.

           I still find it strange that the Delete (which is
accompanied by the full name of the item) button also shows up in the
list of form fields.  Of course, when I see form field I think edit
box, and perhaps that's my problem.  I don't think of "form field" as
the generic term for "object that can be interacted with on the page,"
and am starting to think that may be what it actually means.

           It doesn't help when I'm trying to "think JAWS" and "think
NVDA" in rapid succession, either, when it comes to terminology.
--

Brian *-*Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134

/A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love
for all humankind./

           ~ Richard Dehmel


Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

I guess its human nature for people to assume site builders will all follow a normal way of doing stuff. and its also human nature that people look for what they may think is the simplest way.
I'm very surprised that no search can detect words other than at the start of text though. This is certainly not so in other documents. I use this all the time when viewing local planning applications to search for key words that mean red alert for blind people, like applications for chairs and other street clutter on narrow footways etc.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@ripco.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 6:02 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA


This message is long but people may find it useful. And it would be nice if those who teach enough to be known in the field, would advocate that teaching be changed as I describe.

I have maintained for almost as long as I've known about these completely artificial, screen-reader created constructs, that they are not good to use on unfamiliar pages. Now, you are giving excellent arguments why they shouldn't be used on familiar pages.

In my strong opinion, people are much better off using the page as the page. I realize it is the page as presented in the browse mode buffer, but it is the page as we generally work with it and it and it is not a completely artifically construct that goes outside of any unified page-as-structure gestault, to use a fancy word meaning picture or mental construction or framework.

It removes the user from the interface and makes him/her reliant on instructions on how to do this or that thing, as you illustrate in your example. Just think how much more natural and directly working with the page, as presented, it is to tell the student, make sure you are at the top of the page, then search for the word cart. Repeat the search if necessary until you get to the cart. Then explain how to move through the cart. I almost never use amazon so I don't recall the best ways. And this is true on page after page. What about a newspaper site where you want to find the editorial section on the home page. Instead of using the links list, search for edito. Repeat if necessary.

What about a radio station site? If you want to listen, search for listen. If you find nothing, search for the word live or the word click. Using the links list and using first letter navigation to find the word listen won't do any good if the link says click here to listen live. Nor will using first letter navigation help when looking for the word "live." You have to find the word click with first letter navigation. It makes much more sense to search for words like listen and live or click using my method. You will find the link every time because all three words are in the link, just not necessarily in the limited and arbitrary way this completely artificial structure imposes on looking for them.

What if you are on an unfamiliar site and all you want to do is get contact information or use a contact form. From the top of the page, search for the word "contact." Again, what if the link says click here to contact us." What if it says, to contact us, use this form, where "this form" is the link. Best of luck finding it with the links list. Using search, you will find the word contact and the link is in the sentence. This also leads to micromemorization of pages. Page x has something you switch to the headings list to find. Site Y has something you look for using the buttons list. It's not a natural way to work with web pages and you are reporting increasing dissatisfaction with how sites label structures that are not how they appear.

As I say from time to time, blind people shouldn't rely on the kindness of strangers when navigating web pages.

I want to be very clear on the next point. I am not aedvocating not using heading movement to skip navigation links on unfamiliar pages. Nor am I saying that the skip blocks of links shoudn't be used. Those uses move you past generally used patterns on a page to get to where you want. I'm advocating against using the links list in examples such as I give above when you are on unfamiliar pages and want to find something more specific than the general beginning of text beyond a usually present structure such as navigation links. And I'm advocating using search for finding something in the links list on unfamiliar pages where you cannot assume what the link says as the first word in the link. I am also arguing that in teaching, using the links list removes the user from the structure of the page and should never be used or taught until the end of web page navigation instruction, if the instructor wants to teach it. The mor3e the student works with the web page, the better.

The links list, this, what I consider, very improper way of teaching web page navigation has become unquestioned dogma. I did a tutorial years ago on Internet use. It is the only one I know that tells users, don't use the links list on unfamiliar pages. If you want to use it on familiar pages, that's alright but I specifically tell them not to use the links list when using the tutorial even if they already are familiar with it.

The other tutorials I've seen teach it near the beginning of teaching page navigation. It's far past time someone with enough influence in the field that others will at least pay attention and think, make this case.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 10:05 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA


Rick,

Thanks. I've figured some of this out but it is still insane. Being sighted, it is making me crazy that there is a trend toward making objects look like other objects that they are not. I cannot fathom why you would make a button visually appear as a link. I've experienced the reverse, too.

It does no one any good on either side of the equation. I hate telling a client something like "bring up the list of links" then use first letter navigation by 'D' to get to that Delete link that is not, in actuality, a link. I came to the conclusion using the elements lists and cycling through the various elements.

I still find it strange that the Delete (which is accompanied by the full name of the item) button also shows up in the list of form fields. Of course, when I see form field I think edit box, and perhaps that's my problem. I don't think of "form field" as the generic term for "object that can be interacted with on the page," and am starting to think that may be what it actually means.

It doesn't help when I'm trying to "think JAWS" and "think NVDA" in rapid succession, either, when it comes to terminology.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134

A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

~ Richard Dehmel


Gene
 

I didn't say no searches can find words except at the beginnings of text.  I said that, using the links list or the other lists, which are artificial constructions, that if you use first letter navigation to move through these artificial lists, you won't find something unless the first word in the item begins with that letter.  See my examples again such as click here to listen live.  The links list won't find the link if you use first letter navigation and you type l.
 
I argue against using the links list for that reason on unfamiliar pages.  I argue that the screen-reader's find should be used.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 3:28 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

I guess its human nature for people to assume site builders will all follow
a normal way of doing stuff. and its also human nature that people look for
what they may think is the simplest way.
 I'm very surprised that no search  can detect words other than at the start
of text though. This is certainly not so in other documents. I use this all
the time when viewing local planning applications to search for key words
that mean  red alert for blind people, like applications for chairs and
other street clutter on narrow footways etc.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 6:02 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA


This message is long but people may find it useful.  And it would be nice if
those who teach enough to be known in the field, would advocate that
teaching be changed as I describe.

I have maintained for almost as long as I've known about these completely
artificial, screen-reader created constructs, that they are not good to use
on unfamiliar pages.  Now, you are giving excellent arguments why they
shouldn't be used on familiar pages.

In my strong opinion, people are much better off using the page as the page.
I realize it is the page as presented in the browse mode buffer, but it is
the page as we generally work with it and it and it is not a completely
artifically construct that goes outside of any unified page-as-structure
gestault, to use a fancy word meaning picture or mental construction or
framework.

It removes the user from the interface and makes him/her reliant on
instructions on how to do this or that thing, as you illustrate in your
example.  Just think how much more natural and directly working with the
page, as presented, it is to tell the student, make sure you are at the top
of the page, then search for the word cart.  Repeat the search if necessary
until you get to the cart.  Then explain how to move through the cart.  I
almost never use amazon so I don't recall the best ways.  And this is true
on page after page.  What about a newspaper site where you want to find the
editorial section on the home page.  Instead of using the links list, search
for edito.  Repeat if necessary.

What about a radio station site?  If you want to listen, search for listen.
If you find nothing, search for the word live or the word click.  Using the
links list and using first letter navigation to find the word listen won't
do any good if the link says click here to listen live.  Nor will using
first letter navigation help when looking for the word "live."  You have to
find the word click with first letter navigation.  It makes much more sense
to search for words like listen and live or click using my method.  You will
find the link every time because all three words are in the link, just not
necessarily in the limited and arbitrary way this completely artificial
structure imposes on looking for them.

What if you are on an unfamiliar site and all you want to do is get contact
information or use a contact form.  From the top of the page, search for the
word "contact."  Again, what if the link says click here to contact us."
What if it says, to contact us, use this form, where "this form" is the
link.  Best of luck finding it with the links list.  Using search, you will
find the word contact and the link is in the sentence.  This also leads to
micromemorization of pages.  Page x has something you switch to the headings
list to find.  Site Y has something you look for using the buttons list.
It's not a natural way to work with web pages and you are reporting
increasing dissatisfaction with how sites label structures that are not how
they appear.

As I say from time to time, blind people shouldn't rely on the kindness of
strangers when navigating web pages.

I want to be very clear on the next point.  I am not aedvocating not using
heading movement to skip navigation links on unfamiliar pages.  Nor am I
saying that the skip blocks of links shoudn't be used.  Those uses move you
past generally used patterns on a page to get to where you want.  I'm
advocating against using the links list in examples such as I give above
when you are on unfamiliar pages and want to find something more specific
than the general beginning of text beyond a usually present structure such
as navigation links.  And I'm advocating using search for finding something
in the links list on unfamiliar pages where you cannot assume what the link
says as the first word in the link.  I am also arguing that in teaching,
using the links list removes the user from the structure of the page and
should never be used or taught until the end of web page navigation
instruction, if the instructor wants to teach it.  The mor3e the student
works with the web page, the better.

The links list, this, what I consider, very improper way of teaching web
page navigation has become unquestioned dogma.  I did a tutorial years ago
on Internet use.  It is the only one I know that tells users, don't use the
links list on unfamiliar pages.  If you want to use it on familiar pages,
that's alright but I specifically tell them not to use the links list when
using the tutorial even if they already are familiar with it.

The other tutorials I've seen teach it near the beginning of teaching page
navigation.  It's far past time someone with enough influence in the field
that others will at least pay attention and think, make this case.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 10:05 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA


Rick,

          Thanks.  I've figured some of this out but it is still insane.
Being sighted, it is making me crazy that there is a trend toward making
objects look like other objects that they are not.   I cannot fathom why you
would make a button visually appear as a link.  I've experienced the
reverse, too.

           It does no one any good on either side of the equation.  I hate
telling a client something like "bring up the list of links" then use first
letter navigation by 'D' to get to that Delete link that is not, in
actuality, a link.  I came to the conclusion using the elements lists and
cycling through the various elements.

           I still find it strange that the Delete (which is accompanied by
the full name of the item) button also shows up in the list of form fields.
Of course, when I see form field I think edit box, and perhaps that's my
problem.  I don't think of "form field" as the generic term for "object that
can be interacted with on the page," and am starting to think that may be
what it actually means.

           It doesn't help when I'm trying to "think JAWS" and "think NVDA"
in rapid succession, either, when it comes to terminology.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for
all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel












Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Gene,


You are largely correct on this analysis, but at times, I must confess, you have a way of stating what could be stated n a sentence or two in 10 thousand words.


What you are saying in a nutshell is that you should always scope out unfamiliar web pages and then when you know what is going on on such pages, use your quick navigation, links lists and so on.


I do this all the time and it is more or less common sense.  For example, once you scope out a page and you know that the listen live link on a web page is near the top and the word here as in 'click here' to listen' is the clickable word, then it is much easier to use the links list and when you press the letter h and hear the word here, to press enter on it to start listening.



On 7/27/2018 1:02 AM, Gene wrote:
This message is long but people may find it useful.  And it would be nice if those who teach enough to be known in the field, would advocate that teaching be changed as I describe. 
 
I have maintained for almost as long as I've known about these completely artificial, screen-reader created constructs, that they are not good to use on unfamiliar pages.  Now, you are giving excellent arguments why they shouldn't be used on familiar pages. 
 
In my strong opinion, people are much better off using the page as the page.  I realize it is the page as presented in the browse mode buffer, but it is the page as we generally work with it and it and it is not a completely artifically construct that goes outside of any unified page-as-structure gestault, to use a fancy word meaning picture or mental construction or framework.
 
It removes the user from the interface and makes him/her reliant on instructions on how to do this or that thing, as you illustrate in your example.  Just think how much more natural and directly working with the page, as presented, it is to tell the student, make sure you are at the top of the page, then search for the word cart.  Repeat the search if necessary until you get to the cart.  Then explain how to move through the cart.  I almost never use amazon so I don't recall the best ways.  And this is true on page after page.  What about a newspaper site where you want to find the editorial section on the home page.  Instead of using the links list, search for edito.  Repeat if necessary. 
 
What about a radio station site?  If you want to listen, search for listen.  If you find nothing, search for the word live or the word click.  Using the links list and using first letter navigation to find the word listen won't do any good if the link says click here to listen live.  Nor will using first letter navigation help when looking for the word "live."  You have to find the word click with first letter navigation.  It makes much more sense to search for words like listen and live or click using my method.  You will find the link every time because all three words are in the link, just not necessarily in the limited and arbitrary way this completely artificial structure imposes on looking for them. 
 
What if you are on an unfamiliar site and all you want to do is get contact information or use a contact form.  From the top of the page, search for the word "contact."  Again, what if the link says click here to contact us."  What if it says, to contact us, use this form, where "this form" is the link.  Best of luck finding it with the links list.  Using search, you will find the word contact and the link is in the sentence.  This also leads to micromemorization of pages.  Page x has something you switch to the headings list to find.  Site Y has something you look for using the buttons list.  It's not a natural way to work with web pages and you are reporting increasing dissatisfaction with how sites label structures that are not how they appear.
 
As I say from time to time, blind people shouldn't rely on the kindness of strangers when navigating web pages. 
 
I want to be very clear on the next point.  I am not aedvocating not using heading movement to skip navigation links on unfamiliar pages.  Nor am I saying that the skip blocks of links shoudn't be used.  Those uses move you past generally used patterns on a page to get to where you want.  I'm advocating against using the links list in examples such as I give above when you are on unfamiliar pages and want to find something more specific than the general beginning of text beyond a usually present structure such as navigation links.  And I'm advocating using search for finding something in the links list on unfamiliar pages where you cannot assume what the link says as the first word in the link.  I am also arguing that in teaching, using the links list removes the user from the structure of the page and should never be used or taught until the end of web page navigation instruction, if the instructor wants to teach it.  The mor3e the student works with the web page, the better.
 
The links list, this, what I consider, very improper way of teaching web page navigation has become unquestioned dogma.  I did a tutorial years ago on Internet use.  It is the only one I know that tells users, don't use the links list on unfamiliar pages.  If you want to use it on familiar pages, that's alright but I specifically tell them not to use the links list when using the tutorial even if they already are familiar with it. 
 
The other tutorials I've seen teach it near the beginning of teaching page navigation.  It's far past time someone with enough influence in the field that others will at least pay attention and think, make this case.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 10:05 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

Rick,

          Thanks.  I've figured some of this out but it is still insane.  Being sighted, it is making me crazy that there is a trend toward making objects look like other objects that they are not.   I cannot fathom why you would make a button visually appear as a link.  I've experienced the reverse, too.

           It does no one any good on either side of the equation.  I hate telling a client something like "bring up the list of links" then use first letter navigation by 'D' to get to that Delete link that is not, in actuality, a link.  I came to the conclusion using the elements lists and cycling through the various elements. 

           I still find it strange that the Delete (which is accompanied by the full name of the item) button also shows up in the list of form fields.  Of course, when I see form field I think edit box, and perhaps that's my problem.  I don't think of "form field" as the generic term for "object that can be interacted with on the page," and am starting to think that may be what it actually means.

           It doesn't help when I'm trying to "think JAWS" and "think NVDA" in rapid succession, either, when it comes to terminology.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Jonathan COHN
 

Gene,

Very good points. Often I find that Web developers also expect the blind to navigate just with the tab key and enter keys. This is true in LinkedIn and some travel booking sites.


Also of note, is that web accessibility documentation have had deep discussions about what a link is versus what a button is, and they don't really seem to take into consideration the visual appearance of the item in question. Except for next/previous buttons on training sites, a button is usually considered to be an item that acts on other items in the page for example  (remove, add, purchase) Sometimes Web developers will mark an item up as a link and then use a special attribute to tell the AT that it is a button. Think of those places where there was a click here button and you couldn't get it to work... this could be the reason.
One final point, not all screen readers use just first letter navigation within item lists.  A search type capability could certainly be added to the panel invoked by NVDA-F7. 

.   


 

On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 09:20 AM, Ron Canazzi wrote:
What you are saying in a nutshell is that you should always scope out unfamiliar web pages and then when you know what is going on on such pages, use your quick navigation, links lists and so on.
Indeed.

Every single one of the "lists" features also has its place, and that place is not only after one is familiar with the page.  Going through headings lists on things like newspaper websites gets one through what is generally the list of headlines and doing the same on search pages puts one through the click-through text for the search results returned.

Sometimes using the links list (which is my very least favorite thing to use) allows someone to get a quick overview of what's on the page just by arrowing through it.

All of these tools are appropriately used in combination.  I am also a huge fan of the screen reader search function and, for those willing to use it, mouse tracking.  You can get a decent idea of what's on a completely unfamiliar page by gliding the mouse around and listening to what is announced that's underneath it.  Very few screen reader users who are not also former users of the mouse are willing to do this, though.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


Gene
 

What if you have twenty or thirty web pages you use for listening to stations?  That is what I meant when I spoke of micromemorizing pages.  It appears to me that it takes the links list a little time to open.  Then you move by first letter navigation to what you want.  I am not convinced it's faster to any significant extent or easier than opening find, typing list or listen and finding the link that way without remembering that the wrsv site, for example,  uses the word click, and the Wbcw site does but most other sites use listen.  These are fictitious examples. 
 
Quite some time ago, Send Space changed it's download link to a button.  When it happened, it cause me no problem in the slightest.  I simply typed downl and found the button immediately. 
 
When I found that it is now a button, I started typing the letter b from the top of the page.  But when the change was made, I found the button as quickly as I had found the link previously.
 
Perhaps I wrote too long a message, others will have to decide.  I wanted to make clear what I meant, and I wanted to argue forcefully for it In hopes that maybe, if any possibly influential instructors read the message, they might start making the case to others who teach and maybe, stop the pernicious way this is taught.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 8:20 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

Hi Gene,


You are largely correct on this analysis, but at times, I must confess, you have a way of stating what could be stated n a sentence or two in 10 thousand words.


What you are saying in a nutshell is that you should always scope out unfamiliar web pages and then when you know what is going on on such pages, use your quick navigation, links lists and so on.


I do this all the time and it is more or less common sense.  For example, once you scope out a page and you know that the listen live link on a web page is near the top and the word here as in 'click here' to listen' is the clickable word, then it is much easier to use the links list and when you press the letter h and hear the word here, to press enter on it to start listening.



On 7/27/2018 1:02 AM, Gene wrote:
This message is long but people may find it useful.  And it would be nice if those who teach enough to be known in the field, would advocate that teaching be changed as I describe. 
 
I have maintained for almost as long as I've known about these completely artificial, screen-reader created constructs, that they are not good to use on unfamiliar pages.  Now, you are giving excellent arguments why they shouldn't be used on familiar pages. 
 
In my strong opinion, people are much better off using the page as the page.  I realize it is the page as presented in the browse mode buffer, but it is the page as we generally work with it and it and it is not a completely artifically construct that goes outside of any unified page-as-structure gestault, to use a fancy word meaning picture or mental construction or framework.
 
It removes the user from the interface and makes him/her reliant on instructions on how to do this or that thing, as you illustrate in your example.  Just think how much more natural and directly working with the page, as presented, it is to tell the student, make sure you are at the top of the page, then search for the word cart.  Repeat the search if necessary until you get to the cart.  Then explain how to move through the cart.  I almost never use amazon so I don't recall the best ways.  And this is true on page after page.  What about a newspaper site where you want to find the editorial section on the home page.  Instead of using the links list, search for edito.  Repeat if necessary. 
 
What about a radio station site?  If you want to listen, search for listen.  If you find nothing, search for the word live or the word click.  Using the links list and using first letter navigation to find the word listen won't do any good if the link says click here to listen live.  Nor will using first letter navigation help when looking for the word "live."  You have to find the word click with first letter navigation.  It makes much more sense to search for words like listen and live or click using my method.  You will find the link every time because all three words are in the link, just not necessarily in the limited and arbitrary way this completely artificial structure imposes on looking for them. 
 
What if you are on an unfamiliar site and all you want to do is get contact information or use a contact form.  From the top of the page, search for the word "contact."  Again, what if the link says click here to contact us."  What if it says, to contact us, use this form, where "this form" is the link.  Best of luck finding it with the links list.  Using search, you will find the word contact and the link is in the sentence.  This also leads to micromemorization of pages.  Page x has something you switch to the headings list to find.  Site Y has something you look for using the buttons list.  It's not a natural way to work with web pages and you are reporting increasing dissatisfaction with how sites label structures that are not how they appear.
 
As I say from time to time, blind people shouldn't rely on the kindness of strangers when navigating web pages. 
 
I want to be very clear on the next point.  I am not aedvocating not using heading movement to skip navigation links on unfamiliar pages.  Nor am I saying that the skip blocks of links shoudn't be used.  Those uses move you past generally used patterns on a page to get to where you want.  I'm advocating against using the links list in examples such as I give above when you are on unfamiliar pages and want to find something more specific than the general beginning of text beyond a usually present structure such as navigation links.  And I'm advocating using search for finding something in the links list on unfamiliar pages where you cannot assume what the link says as the first word in the link.  I am also arguing that in teaching, using the links list removes the user from the structure of the page and should never be used or taught until the end of web page navigation instruction, if the instructor wants to teach it.  The mor3e the student works with the web page, the better.
 
The links list, this, what I consider, very improper way of teaching web page navigation has become unquestioned dogma.  I did a tutorial years ago on Internet use.  It is the only one I know that tells users, don't use the links list on unfamiliar pages.  If you want to use it on familiar pages, that's alright but I specifically tell them not to use the links list when using the tutorial even if they already are familiar with it. 
 
The other tutorials I've seen teach it near the beginning of teaching page navigation.  It's far past time someone with enough influence in the field that others will at least pay attention and think, make this case.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 10:05 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

Rick,

          Thanks.  I've figured some of this out but it is still insane.  Being sighted, it is making me crazy that there is a trend toward making objects look like other objects that they are not.   I cannot fathom why you would make a button visually appear as a link.  I've experienced the reverse, too.

           It does no one any good on either side of the equation.  I hate telling a client something like "bring up the list of links" then use first letter navigation by 'D' to get to that Delete link that is not, in actuality, a link.  I came to the conclusion using the elements lists and cycling through the various elements. 

           I still find it strange that the Delete (which is accompanied by the full name of the item) button also shows up in the list of form fields.  Of course, when I see form field I think edit box, and perhaps that's my problem.  I don't think of "form field" as the generic term for "object that can be interacted with on the page," and am starting to think that may be what it actually means.

           It doesn't help when I'm trying to "think JAWS" and "think NVDA" in rapid succession, either, when it comes to terminology.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Robin Frost
 

Hi Gene and all,
Personally I appreciate the depth Gene’s message featured as he didn’t assume skill level or familiarity of any users new or old who might be reading it as we have users of all types here. He also aptly demonstrated that there is often more than one way to accomplish a thing and it’s always good to know more than one way as you never when a given way won’t be the best fit for a use case or situation.Secondly I find as a user who always likes to at least attempt to keep learning new things that the more detail or description of a concept given the better. That way if I archive a message for later review I have as much information at my disposal to revisit whether that be through a saved message or the archives of the group.
Thanks again Gene for your insights.
Robin
 
 

From: Gene
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 12:03 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA
 
What if you have twenty or thirty web pages you use for listening to stations?  That is what I meant when I spoke of micromemorizing pages.  It appears to me that it takes the links list a little time to open.  Then you move by first letter navigation to what you want.  I am not convinced it's faster to any significant extent or easier than opening find, typing list or listen and finding the link that way without remembering that the wrsv site, for example,  uses the word click, and the Wbcw site does but most other sites use listen.  These are fictitious examples. 
 
Quite some time ago, Send Space changed it's download link to a button.  When it happened, it cause me no problem in the slightest.  I simply typed downl and found the button immediately. 
 
When I found that it is now a button, I started typing the letter b from the top of the page.  But when the change was made, I found the button as quickly as I had found the link previously.
 
Perhaps I wrote too long a message, others will have to decide.  I wanted to make clear what I meant, and I wanted to argue forcefully for it In hopes that maybe, if any possibly influential instructors read the message, they might start making the case to others who teach and maybe, stop the pernicious way this is taught.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 8:20 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA
 

Hi Gene,

 

You are largely correct on this analysis, but at times, I must confess, you have a way of stating what could be stated n a sentence or two in 10 thousand words.

 

What you are saying in a nutshell is that you should always scope out unfamiliar web pages and then when you know what is going on on such pages, use your quick navigation, links lists and so on.

 

I do this all the time and it is more or less common sense.  For example, once you scope out a page and you know that the listen live link on a web page is near the top and the word here as in 'click here' to listen' is the clickable word, then it is much easier to use the links list and when you press the letter h and hear the word here, to press enter on it to start listening.

 


On 7/27/2018 1:02 AM, Gene wrote:
This message is long but people may find it useful.  And it would be nice if those who teach enough to be known in the field, would advocate that teaching be changed as I describe. 
 
I have maintained for almost as long as I've known about these completely artificial, screen-reader created constructs, that they are not good to use on unfamiliar pages.  Now, you are giving excellent arguments why they shouldn't be used on familiar pages. 
 
In my strong opinion, people are much better off using the page as the page.  I realize it is the page as presented in the browse mode buffer, but it is the page as we generally work with it and it and it is not a completely artifically construct that goes outside of any unified page-as-structure gestault, to use a fancy word meaning picture or mental construction or framework.
 
It removes the user from the interface and makes him/her reliant on instructions on how to do this or that thing, as you illustrate in your example.  Just think how much more natural and directly working with the page, as presented, it is to tell the student, make sure you are at the top of the page, then search for the word cart.  Repeat the search if necessary until you get to the cart.  Then explain how to move through the cart.  I almost never use amazon so I don't recall the best ways.  And this is true on page after page.  What about a newspaper site where you want to find the editorial section on the home page.  Instead of using the links list, search for edito.  Repeat if necessary. 
 
What about a radio station site?  If you want to listen, search for listen.  If you find nothing, search for the word live or the word click.  Using the links list and using first letter navigation to find the word listen won't do any good if the link says click here to listen live.  Nor will using first letter navigation help when looking for the word "live."  You have to find the word click with first letter navigation.  It makes much more sense to search for words like listen and live or click using my method.  You will find the link every time because all three words are in the link, just not necessarily in the limited and arbitrary way this completely artificial structure imposes on looking for them. 
 
What if you are on an unfamiliar site and all you want to do is get contact information or use a contact form.  From the top of the page, search for the word "contact."  Again, what if the link says click here to contact us."  What if it says, to contact us, use this form, where "this form" is the link.  Best of luck finding it with the links list.  Using search, you will find the word contact and the link is in the sentence.  This also leads to micromemorization of pages.  Page x has something you switch to the headings list to find.  Site Y has something you look for using the buttons list.  It's not a natural way to work with web pages and you are reporting increasing dissatisfaction with how sites label structures that are not how they appear.
 
As I say from time to time, blind people shouldn't rely on the kindness of strangers when navigating web pages. 
 
I want to be very clear on the next point.  I am not aedvocating not using heading movement to skip navigation links on unfamiliar pages.  Nor am I saying that the skip blocks of links shoudn't be used.  Those uses move you past generally used patterns on a page to get to where you want.  I'm advocating against using the links list in examples such as I give above when you are on unfamiliar pages and want to find something more specific than the general beginning of text beyond a usually present structure such as navigation links.  And I'm advocating using search for finding something in the links list on unfamiliar pages where you cannot assume what the link says as the first word in the link.  I am also arguing that in teaching, using the links list removes the user from the structure of the page and should never be used or taught until the end of web page navigation instruction, if the instructor wants to teach it.  The mor3e the student works with the web page, the better.
 
The links list, this, what I consider, very improper way of teaching web page navigation has become unquestioned dogma.  I did a tutorial years ago on Internet use.  It is the only one I know that tells users, don't use the links list on unfamiliar pages.  If you want to use it on familiar pages, that's alright but I specifically tell them not to use the links list when using the tutorial even if they already are familiar with it. 
 
The other tutorials I've seen teach it near the beginning of teaching page navigation.  It's far past time someone with enough influence in the field that others will at least pay attention and think, make this case.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 10:05 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA
 
Rick,

          Thanks.  I've figured some of this out but it is still insane.  Being sighted, it is making me crazy that there is a trend toward making objects look like other objects that they are not.   I cannot fathom why you would make a button visually appear as a link.  I've experienced the reverse, too.

           It does no one any good on either side of the equation.  I hate telling a client something like "bring up the list of links" then use first letter navigation by 'D' to get to that Delete link that is not, in actuality, a link.  I came to the conclusion using the elements lists and cycling through the various elements.

           I still find it strange that the Delete (which is accompanied by the full name of the item) button also shows up in the list of form fields.  Of course, when I see form field I think edit box, and perhaps that's my problem.  I don't think of "form field" as the generic term for "object that can be interacted with on the page," and am starting to think that may be what it actually means.

           It doesn't help when I'm trying to "think JAWS" and "think NVDA" in rapid succession, either, when it comes to terminology.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Gene
 

You can move through headings by pressing h while not in the headings list.  You also don't have to keep switching in and out of the headings list to see what may be underneath the heading.  There may be links.  If the heading is a link, there may be a teaser giving information about a story you may want to read to decide if you want to read the story itself.  NVDA has a links command, k to move forward and shift k to move gbackwards.  And if you move by links without using the links list, again, you can more efficiently look under a link to see if additional information is available without leaving the links list, then reentering it again.  I see no advantage that means anything conferred by the links list. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 09:20 AM, Ron Canazzi wrote:
What you are saying in a nutshell is that you should always scope out unfamiliar web pages and then when you know what is going on on such pages, use your quick navigation, links lists and so on.
Indeed.

Every single one of the "lists" features also has its place, and that place is not only after one is familiar with the page.  Going through headings lists on things like newspaper websites gets one through what is generally the list of headlines and doing the same on search pages puts one through the click-through text for the search results returned.

Sometimes using the links list (which is my very least favorite thing to use) allows someone to get a quick overview of what's on the page just by arrowing through it.

All of these tools are appropriately used in combination.  I am also a huge fan of the screen reader search function and, for those willing to use it, mouse tracking.  You can get a decent idea of what's on a completely unfamiliar page by gliding the mouse around and listening to what is announced that's underneath it.  Very few screen reader users who are not also former users of the mouse are willing to do this, though.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


Gene
 

I didn't address search pages, which you mention and which is important in demonstrating my point.
 
Let's use Google as an examle.
 
Google has each search result formatted as a heading.  So I can type the letter h and move from result link to result link.  It also has the address to which the link leads under the link so you know whether you are being directed to a legitimate site that corresponds with the text of the link.  it's protection against being taken to a malicious site masquerading as the real site.
I won't go into every item but if you look down further you will get to small excerpts of text on the page the link leads to.  This helps you decide if the information on the page is relevant.  It is much more efficient to type h, then down arrow through whatever you want to see about the result link, then type h again to move to the next result link of you want to skip the rest of the material.  Or you can just down arrow and read everything if you wish.  Then down arrowing once more takes you to the next result link.
 
It makes no sense to enter the headings list, move to the first result heading, leave the headings list, look at what you want, go back into the headings list and move to the next heading etc.
 
also, if all you want to do is move by heading, typing h will move you from one result link to the next to the next as efficiently as being in the headings list and moving by heading that way. 
 
And screen-readers these days have commands to move by heading, move by link, and move by list while all the time, staying on the page and not using an artificial structure which removes you from the structure of the page.
 
And of course, a move by button command.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
----- Original Message -----
Gene

From: Gene
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

You can move through headings by pressing h while not in the headings list.  You also don't have to keep switching in and out of the headings list to see what may be underneath the heading.  There may be links.  If the heading is a link, there may be a teaser giving information about a story you may want to read to decide if you want to read the story itself.  NVDA has a links command, k to move forward and shift k to move gbackwards.  And if you move by links without using the links list, again, you can more efficiently look under a link to see if additional information is available without leaving the links list, then reentering it again.  I see no advantage that means anything conferred by the links list. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 09:20 AM, Ron Canazzi wrote:
What you are saying in a nutshell is that you should always scope out unfamiliar web pages and then when you know what is going on on such pages, use your quick navigation, links lists and so on.
Indeed.

Every single one of the "lists" features also has its place, and that place is not only after one is familiar with the page.  Going through headings lists on things like newspaper websites gets one through what is generally the list of headlines and doing the same on search pages puts one through the click-through text for the search results returned.

Sometimes using the links list (which is my very least favorite thing to use) allows someone to get a quick overview of what's on the page just by arrowing through it.

All of these tools are appropriately used in combination.  I am also a huge fan of the screen reader search function and, for those willing to use it, mouse tracking.  You can get a decent idea of what's on a completely unfamiliar page by gliding the mouse around and listening to what is announced that's underneath it.  Very few screen reader users who are not also former users of the mouse are willing to do this, though.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


 

Gene,

            One of these days it might occur to you that what's right for you is not right for everyone.  That never seems to enter your mind.

             A great many people prefer to "distill" what they're looking at at any moment.  It is not up to you to tell them they're wrong or they shouldn't.  Whatever works for the individual is what's best.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


Tyler Wood
 

Gene,

What works for you may not work for others.

For example, I like arrowing through a page to make sure I'm not missing anything. Yes, it takes longer, but overall I get the layout of the page, make sure I'm not missing any information at all. What difference does it make if someone opens the elements list or uses the find feature if both methods work in the end?



On 27-Jul-2018 11:03 AM, Gene wrote:
What if you have twenty or thirty web pages you use for listening to stations?  That is what I meant when I spoke of micromemorizing pages.  It appears to me that it takes the links list a little time to open.  Then you move by first letter navigation to what you want.  I am not convinced it's faster to any significant extent or easier than opening find, typing list or listen and finding the link that way without remembering that the wrsv site, for example,  uses the word click, and the Wbcw site does but most other sites use listen.  These are fictitious examples. 
 
Quite some time ago, Send Space changed it's download link to a button.  When it happened, it cause me no problem in the slightest.  I simply typed downl and found the button immediately. 
 
When I found that it is now a button, I started typing the letter b from the top of the page.  But when the change was made, I found the button as quickly as I had found the link previously.
 
Perhaps I wrote too long a message, others will have to decide.  I wanted to make clear what I meant, and I wanted to argue forcefully for it In hopes that maybe, if any possibly influential instructors read the message, they might start making the case to others who teach and maybe, stop the pernicious way this is taught.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 8:20 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

Hi Gene,


You are largely correct on this analysis, but at times, I must confess, you have a way of stating what could be stated n a sentence or two in 10 thousand words.


What you are saying in a nutshell is that you should always scope out unfamiliar web pages and then when you know what is going on on such pages, use your quick navigation, links lists and so on.


I do this all the time and it is more or less common sense.  For example, once you scope out a page and you know that the listen live link on a web page is near the top and the word here as in 'click here' to listen' is the clickable word, then it is much easier to use the links list and when you press the letter h and hear the word here, to press enter on it to start listening.



On 7/27/2018 1:02 AM, Gene wrote:
This message is long but people may find it useful.  And it would be nice if those who teach enough to be known in the field, would advocate that teaching be changed as I describe. 
 
I have maintained for almost as long as I've known about these completely artificial, screen-reader created constructs, that they are not good to use on unfamiliar pages.  Now, you are giving excellent arguments why they shouldn't be used on familiar pages. 
 
In my strong opinion, people are much better off using the page as the page.  I realize it is the page as presented in the browse mode buffer, but it is the page as we generally work with it and it and it is not a completely artifically construct that goes outside of any unified page-as-structure gestault, to use a fancy word meaning picture or mental construction or framework.
 
It removes the user from the interface and makes him/her reliant on instructions on how to do this or that thing, as you illustrate in your example.  Just think how much more natural and directly working with the page, as presented, it is to tell the student, make sure you are at the top of the page, then search for the word cart.  Repeat the search if necessary until you get to the cart.  Then explain how to move through the cart.  I almost never use amazon so I don't recall the best ways.  And this is true on page after page.  What about a newspaper site where you want to find the editorial section on the home page.  Instead of using the links list, search for edito.  Repeat if necessary. 
 
What about a radio station site?  If you want to listen, search for listen.  If you find nothing, search for the word live or the word click.  Using the links list and using first letter navigation to find the word listen won't do any good if the link says click here to listen live.  Nor will using first letter navigation help when looking for the word "live."  You have to find the word click with first letter navigation.  It makes much more sense to search for words like listen and live or click using my method.  You will find the link every time because all three words are in the link, just not necessarily in the limited and arbitrary way this completely artificial structure imposes on looking for them. 
 
What if you are on an unfamiliar site and all you want to do is get contact information or use a contact form.  From the top of the page, search for the word "contact."  Again, what if the link says click here to contact us."  What if it says, to contact us, use this form, where "this form" is the link.  Best of luck finding it with the links list.  Using search, you will find the word contact and the link is in the sentence.  This also leads to micromemorization of pages.  Page x has something you switch to the headings list to find.  Site Y has something you look for using the buttons list.  It's not a natural way to work with web pages and you are reporting increasing dissatisfaction with how sites label structures that are not how they appear.
 
As I say from time to time, blind people shouldn't rely on the kindness of strangers when navigating web pages. 
 
I want to be very clear on the next point.  I am not aedvocating not using heading movement to skip navigation links on unfamiliar pages.  Nor am I saying that the skip blocks of links shoudn't be used.  Those uses move you past generally used patterns on a page to get to where you want.  I'm advocating against using the links list in examples such as I give above when you are on unfamiliar pages and want to find something more specific than the general beginning of text beyond a usually present structure such as navigation links.  And I'm advocating using search for finding something in the links list on unfamiliar pages where you cannot assume what the link says as the first word in the link.  I am also arguing that in teaching, using the links list removes the user from the structure of the page and should never be used or taught until the end of web page navigation instruction, if the instructor wants to teach it.  The mor3e the student works with the web page, the better.
 
The links list, this, what I consider, very improper way of teaching web page navigation has become unquestioned dogma.  I did a tutorial years ago on Internet use.  It is the only one I know that tells users, don't use the links list on unfamiliar pages.  If you want to use it on familiar pages, that's alright but I specifically tell them not to use the links list when using the tutorial even if they already are familiar with it. 
 
The other tutorials I've seen teach it near the beginning of teaching page navigation.  It's far past time someone with enough influence in the field that others will at least pay attention and think, make this case.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 10:05 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

Rick,

          Thanks.  I've figured some of this out but it is still insane.  Being sighted, it is making me crazy that there is a trend toward making objects look like other objects that they are not.   I cannot fathom why you would make a button visually appear as a link.  I've experienced the reverse, too.

           It does no one any good on either side of the equation.  I hate telling a client something like "bring up the list of links" then use first letter navigation by 'D' to get to that Delete link that is not, in actuality, a link.  I came to the conclusion using the elements lists and cycling through the various elements. 

           I still find it strange that the Delete (which is accompanied by the full name of the item) button also shows up in the list of form fields.  Of course, when I see form field I think edit box, and perhaps that's my problem.  I don't think of "form field" as the generic term for "object that can be interacted with on the page," and am starting to think that may be what it actually means.

           It doesn't help when I'm trying to "think JAWS" and "think NVDA" in rapid succession, either, when it comes to terminology.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


James Bentley <bentleyj1952@...>
 

Hi all,
 
I have some very serious arthritis  in the joints of all of my fingers.  Plus, I do not want to waste my time arrowing through every single line on a page unless I need to do so.
 
Of course, I respect the fact that all of us have our own special needs and preferences.
 
My point is just that, I appreciate Gene’s time and pain saving methods of quickly finding what I need on a web site.  I first learned of his navigation methods around 3 years ago.  It has saved me a lot of trouble when line by line navigation and some of the other methods mentioned in this thread aren’t really necessary for me.
 
Regards to all.  And, thanks for every ones input.
 
James B
 
 
 

From: Tyler Wood
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA
 

Gene,

What works for you may not work for others.

For example, I like arrowing through a page to make sure I'm not missing anything. Yes, it takes longer, but overall I get the layout of the page, make sure I'm not missing any information at all. What difference does it make if someone opens the elements list or uses the find feature if both methods work in the end?

 


On 27-Jul-2018 11:03 AM, Gene wrote:
What if you have twenty or thirty web pages you use for listening to stations?  That is what I meant when I spoke of micromemorizing pages.  It appears to me that it takes the links list a little time to open.  Then you move by first letter navigation to what you want.  I am not convinced it's faster to any significant extent or easier than opening find, typing list or listen and finding the link that way without remembering that the wrsv site, for example,  uses the word click, and the Wbcw site does but most other sites use listen.  These are fictitious examples. 
 
Quite some time ago, Send Space changed it's download link to a button.  When it happened, it cause me no problem in the slightest.  I simply typed downl and found the button immediately. 
 
When I found that it is now a button, I started typing the letter b from the top of the page.  But when the change was made, I found the button as quickly as I had found the link previously.
 
Perhaps I wrote too long a message, others will have to decide.  I wanted to make clear what I meant, and I wanted to argue forcefully for it In hopes that maybe, if any possibly influential instructors read the message, they might start making the case to others who teach and maybe, stop the pernicious way this is taught.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 8:20 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA
 

Hi Gene,

 

You are largely correct on this analysis, but at times, I must confess, you have a way of stating what could be stated n a sentence or two in 10 thousand words.

 

What you are saying in a nutshell is that you should always scope out unfamiliar web pages and then when you know what is going on on such pages, use your quick navigation, links lists and so on.

 

I do this all the time and it is more or less common sense.  For example, once you scope out a page and you know that the listen live link on a web page is near the top and the word here as in 'click here' to listen' is the clickable word, then it is much easier to use the links list and when you press the letter h and hear the word here, to press enter on it to start listening.

 


On 7/27/2018 1:02 AM, Gene wrote:
This message is long but people may find it useful.  And it would be nice if those who teach enough to be known in the field, would advocate that teaching be changed as I describe. 
 
I have maintained for almost as long as I've known about these completely artificial, screen-reader created constructs, that they are not good to use on unfamiliar pages.  Now, you are giving excellent arguments why they shouldn't be used on familiar pages. 
 
In my strong opinion, people are much better off using the page as the page.  I realize it is the page as presented in the browse mode buffer, but it is the page as we generally work with it and it and it is not a completely artifically construct that goes outside of any unified page-as-structure gestault, to use a fancy word meaning picture or mental construction or framework.
 
It removes the user from the interface and makes him/her reliant on instructions on how to do this or that thing, as you illustrate in your example.  Just think how much more natural and directly working with the page, as presented, it is to tell the student, make sure you are at the top of the page, then search for the word cart.  Repeat the search if necessary until you get to the cart.  Then explain how to move through the cart.  I almost never use amazon so I don't recall the best ways.  And this is true on page after page.  What about a newspaper site where you want to find the editorial section on the home page.  Instead of using the links list, search for edito.  Repeat if necessary. 
 
What about a radio station site?  If you want to listen, search for listen.  If you find nothing, search for the word live or the word click.  Using the links list and using first letter navigation to find the word listen won't do any good if the link says click here to listen live.  Nor will using first letter navigation help when looking for the word "live."  You have to find the word click with first letter navigation.  It makes much more sense to search for words like listen and live or click using my method.  You will find the link every time because all three words are in the link, just not necessarily in the limited and arbitrary way this completely artificial structure imposes on looking for them. 
 
What if you are on an unfamiliar site and all you want to do is get contact information or use a contact form.  From the top of the page, search for the word "contact."  Again, what if the link says click here to contact us."  What if it says, to contact us, use this form, where "this form" is the link.  Best of luck finding it with the links list.  Using search, you will find the word contact and the link is in the sentence.  This also leads to micromemorization of pages.  Page x has something you switch to the headings list to find.  Site Y has something you look for using the buttons list.  It's not a natural way to work with web pages and you are reporting increasing dissatisfaction with how sites label structures that are not how they appear.
 
As I say from time to time, blind people shouldn't rely on the kindness of strangers when navigating web pages. 
 
I want to be very clear on the next point.  I am not aedvocating not using heading movement to skip navigation links on unfamiliar pages.  Nor am I saying that the skip blocks of links shoudn't be used.  Those uses move you past generally used patterns on a page to get to where you want.  I'm advocating against using the links list in examples such as I give above when you are on unfamiliar pages and want to find something more specific than the general beginning of text beyond a usually present structure such as navigation links.  And I'm advocating using search for finding something in the links list on unfamiliar pages where you cannot assume what the link says as the first word in the link.  I am also arguing that in teaching, using the links list removes the user from the structure of the page and should never be used or taught until the end of web page navigation instruction, if the instructor wants to teach it.  The mor3e the student works with the web page, the better.
 
The links list, this, what I consider, very improper way of teaching web page navigation has become unquestioned dogma.  I did a tutorial years ago on Internet use.  It is the only one I know that tells users, don't use the links list on unfamiliar pages.  If you want to use it on familiar pages, that's alright but I specifically tell them not to use the links list when using the tutorial even if they already are familiar with it. 
 
The other tutorials I've seen teach it near the beginning of teaching page navigation.  It's far past time someone with enough influence in the field that others will at least pay attention and think, make this case.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 10:05 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA
 
Rick,

          Thanks.  I've figured some of this out but it is still insane.  Being sighted, it is making me crazy that there is a trend toward making objects look like other objects that they are not.   I cannot fathom why you would make a button visually appear as a link.  I've experienced the reverse, too.

           It does no one any good on either side of the equation.  I hate telling a client something like "bring up the list of links" then use first letter navigation by 'D' to get to that Delete link that is not, in actuality, a link.  I came to the conclusion using the elements lists and cycling through the various elements.

           I still find it strange that the Delete (which is accompanied by the full name of the item) button also shows up in the list of form fields.  Of course, when I see form field I think edit box, and perhaps that's my problem.  I don't think of "form field" as the generic term for "object that can be interacted with on the page," and am starting to think that may be what it actually means.

           It doesn't help when I'm trying to "think JAWS" and "think NVDA" in rapid succession, either, when it comes to terminology.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Gene
 

It is up to me to give my best advice and opinions.  I'm not forcing anyone to do anything.  If others disagree, that's the point of discussion on a list like this.  People may make up their own minds. 
 
and, frankly, perhaps you might consider that your perceptions as a sighted person may skew what you think is the most effective way to work with web pages.  For example, you seem to put an enormous amount of emphasis on getting a picture of the whole page.  That is a sighted perspective.  Sighted people see things as a whole.  I can't say no blind person will want to do this, some may.  But I believe, and my experience is that I perceive things in general in parts.  I know where I am in my dining room.  I know the living room is to the left of where I am sitting at the dining room table.  I don't have a whole picture of my dining room, my living room, etc.  I picture myself at a certain place and I picture where things are in relation to where I am.  And I don't mean everything.  I don't, I can't, picture, sitting in my dining room, where everything is in the living room from the angle of my chair at the table.  I picture where the door is from where I am to enter the living room.  I can imagine myself walking through that door and, from there, I can picture where things are in that room from being just inside that door. 
 
I'm not saying no blind people build up pictures of the whole, I've read of one person who does.  I don't know if that person saw before. 
 
When I sit at my computer table, I don't ;picture the table as a whole.  I picture where this or that object is from where I am sitting.  That's how I experience objects on the table and that's how I model them.  You see everything as a whole. 
 
I know that buildings reach far higher than I can reach up with my hands.  But that is intellectual knowledge.  When I picture a building, I picture myself at a specific place, the door, the wall, walking toward the door, facing the wall, to the left of the door, etc.  I can't picture the building above where I can reach.  If I tried, I would have to imagine my self being able to jump up or fly up along the side of the building and touch the building at whatever part I was now able to touch.  I might know that the building has eight windows above each other but I would have to picture myself flying up and counting the windows. 
 
Now, to Internet pages:
Often, blind people don't need to know about the whole page.  they may be looking for this or that specific thing or kind of thing.  I don't have to know anything about the whole page to find the listen link on a radio station site that streams.  I don't have to know anything about a page I'm going to just to find one recipe.  Of course, if I want to know more and see what else is available on the page, fine.  If I go to a newspaper site I haven't been to before and I want to find the editorials, I may do a search for editorials.  if there is no link, I may search for opinion.  I may search for commentary if there Is no opinion link. 
 
There are a lot of times when I want to know much more of what is on a page.  I may read part of a page or all of a page to make sure I don't miss anything of interest.  But I don't carry around a mental image of the page.  I remember that the page may have this or that link or links I'  am interested in.  I may remember that a link is in the navigation links at the top of the page.  But I'm much more interested in knowing that I can search for the first four or five letters of a defining word in the link that is not expected to be used much, if at all, elsewhere on the page.  Edito for editorials.  Polit for politics.  Movies, theater, etc.  I may use the find command the next time I am on the page.  At some point, I may book mark a page such as the editorial page.
 
Again, the page is perceived in bits or pieces.  I don't, I can't perceive the page as a whole in any effective way.  I may know as a fact that as the page is displayed in browse mode, navigation links are at the top, then the main part of the page, the article, for example.  But I don't try to picture the page as a whole unified object.
 
That isn't to say that your discussions of using the mouse aren't useful.  I haven't tried what you suggest and I might find times when it is useful, though not necessarily as you imagine.  Not in terms of me perceiving the page as a whole, but in terms of finding a structure I can't work with from the keyboard such as a link that isn't coded to respond to the keyboard and only works with the mouse. 
 
If I believe a method is superior, I'll say so.  If others disagree, fine.  it's there right to say so.  If you disagree, fine.  Show me where anything I say is incorrect or where your suggestions may be superior.  Show me how it is more efficient and a more natural way to work to go into the headings list on a Google results page, and constantly leave the headings list, then reenter it again.  Give an example of how it is better to do that than to type the letter h to move by headings.
 
NVDA developers have repeatedly and emphatically stated that a screen-reader shouldn't give information not found on a page in most instances.  JAWS is often criticized for providing proprietary structures that many people claim aren't necessary and cause people to be unnecessarily dependent on JAWS.  Those who believe these things strongly don't say, different people do things differently and that's just what I think, I may be wrong but, and then givbe their opinion. 
 
If I have a strong opinion that I believe is generally applicable, I'll state it.  Others are free to disagree. 
 
There may be times when someone has a learning disability, for example, that other methods may be better.  I was addressing what I consider to be the best way to do things in general for blind people without other problems that may make other means more suitable to them. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 12:14 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

Gene,

            One of these days it might occur to you that what's right for you is not right for everyone.  That never seems to enter your mind.

             A great many people prefer to "distill" what they're looking at at any moment.  It is not up to you to tell them they're wrong or they shouldn't.  Whatever works for the individual is what's best.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


Gene
 

My first message demonstrates the difference. 
 
You said you like to arrow down a page.  I didn't say how people should move down pages.  I talked about how to work with pages where you want to find something and you aren't interested in what else is on the page.  I didn't say how a blind person should look through a page where they want much more information about what is on a page.  Please don't assume that when I describe how to do something in what I think is the best way, and when I specify the context, that I am generalizing beyond the circumstances and context I am describing. 
 
I was very careful to make comments such as, if someone wants more information, they may want to look at all or a lot more of a page.  I'm specifically discussing the significant disadvantages and inefficiencies of using an artificial structure that separates you from the layout of the page and where you would use first letter navigation where you don't know what you are looking for on an unfamiliar page.  How do you know the download structure is perceived by your screen-reader as a link.  On Send Space, it is perceived by the screen-reader is a button.  What is more efficient.  Using find if you haven't used Send Space and search for the word download or even more efficient, downl or to use the links list, use first letter navigation and move through however many links begin with the letter d, not find download, leave the links list, then look for the word download in other ways. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Tyler Wood
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

Gene,

What works for you may not work for others.

For example, I like arrowing through a page to make sure I'm not missing anything. Yes, it takes longer, but overall I get the layout of the page, make sure I'm not missing any information at all. What difference does it make if someone opens the elements list or uses the find feature if both methods work in the end?



On 27-Jul-2018 11:03 AM, Gene wrote:
What if you have twenty or thirty web pages you use for listening to stations?  That is what I meant when I spoke of micromemorizing pages.  It appears to me that it takes the links list a little time to open.  Then you move by first letter navigation to what you want.  I am not convinced it's faster to any significant extent or easier than opening find, typing list or listen and finding the link that way without remembering that the wrsv site, for example,  uses the word click, and the Wbcw site does but most other sites use listen.  These are fictitious examples. 
 
Quite some time ago, Send Space changed it's download link to a button.  When it happened, it cause me no problem in the slightest.  I simply typed downl and found the button immediately. 
 
When I found that it is now a button, I started typing the letter b from the top of the page.  But when the change was made, I found the button as quickly as I had found the link previously.
 
Perhaps I wrote too long a message, others will have to decide.  I wanted to make clear what I meant, and I wanted to argue forcefully for it In hopes that maybe, if any possibly influential instructors read the message, they might start making the case to others who teach and maybe, stop the pernicious way this is taught.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 8:20 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

Hi Gene,


You are largely correct on this analysis, but at times, I must confess, you have a way of stating what could be stated n a sentence or two in 10 thousand words.


What you are saying in a nutshell is that you should always scope out unfamiliar web pages and then when you know what is going on on such pages, use your quick navigation, links lists and so on.


I do this all the time and it is more or less common sense.  For example, once you scope out a page and you know that the listen live link on a web page is near the top and the word here as in 'click here' to listen' is the clickable word, then it is much easier to use the links list and when you press the letter h and hear the word here, to press enter on it to start listening.



On 7/27/2018 1:02 AM, Gene wrote:
This message is long but people may find it useful.  And it would be nice if those who teach enough to be known in the field, would advocate that teaching be changed as I describe. 
 
I have maintained for almost as long as I've known about these completely artificial, screen-reader created constructs, that they are not good to use on unfamiliar pages.  Now, you are giving excellent arguments why they shouldn't be used on familiar pages. 
 
In my strong opinion, people are much better off using the page as the page.  I realize it is the page as presented in the browse mode buffer, but it is the page as we generally work with it and it and it is not a completely artifically construct that goes outside of any unified page-as-structure gestault, to use a fancy word meaning picture or mental construction or framework.
 
It removes the user from the interface and makes him/her reliant on instructions on how to do this or that thing, as you illustrate in your example.  Just think how much more natural and directly working with the page, as presented, it is to tell the student, make sure you are at the top of the page, then search for the word cart.  Repeat the search if necessary until you get to the cart.  Then explain how to move through the cart.  I almost never use amazon so I don't recall the best ways.  And this is true on page after page.  What about a newspaper site where you want to find the editorial section on the home page.  Instead of using the links list, search for edito.  Repeat if necessary. 
 
What about a radio station site?  If you want to listen, search for listen.  If you find nothing, search for the word live or the word click.  Using the links list and using first letter navigation to find the word listen won't do any good if the link says click here to listen live.  Nor will using first letter navigation help when looking for the word "live."  You have to find the word click with first letter navigation.  It makes much more sense to search for words like listen and live or click using my method.  You will find the link every time because all three words are in the link, just not necessarily in the limited and arbitrary way this completely artificial structure imposes on looking for them. 
 
What if you are on an unfamiliar site and all you want to do is get contact information or use a contact form.  From the top of the page, search for the word "contact."  Again, what if the link says click here to contact us."  What if it says, to contact us, use this form, where "this form" is the link.  Best of luck finding it with the links list.  Using search, you will find the word contact and the link is in the sentence.  This also leads to micromemorization of pages.  Page x has something you switch to the headings list to find.  Site Y has something you look for using the buttons list.  It's not a natural way to work with web pages and you are reporting increasing dissatisfaction with how sites label structures that are not how they appear.
 
As I say from time to time, blind people shouldn't rely on the kindness of strangers when navigating web pages. 
 
I want to be very clear on the next point.  I am not aedvocating not using heading movement to skip navigation links on unfamiliar pages.  Nor am I saying that the skip blocks of links shoudn't be used.  Those uses move you past generally used patterns on a page to get to where you want.  I'm advocating against using the links list in examples such as I give above when you are on unfamiliar pages and want to find something more specific than the general beginning of text beyond a usually present structure such as navigation links.  And I'm advocating using search for finding something in the links list on unfamiliar pages where you cannot assume what the link says as the first word in the link.  I am also arguing that in teaching, using the links list removes the user from the structure of the page and should never be used or taught until the end of web page navigation instruction, if the instructor wants to teach it.  The mor3e the student works with the web page, the better.
 
The links list, this, what I consider, very improper way of teaching web page navigation has become unquestioned dogma.  I did a tutorial years ago on Internet use.  It is the only one I know that tells users, don't use the links list on unfamiliar pages.  If you want to use it on familiar pages, that's alright but I specifically tell them not to use the links list when using the tutorial even if they already are familiar with it. 
 
The other tutorials I've seen teach it near the beginning of teaching page navigation.  It's far past time someone with enough influence in the field that others will at least pay attention and think, make this case.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 10:05 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

Rick,

          Thanks.  I've figured some of this out but it is still insane.  Being sighted, it is making me crazy that there is a trend toward making objects look like other objects that they are not.   I cannot fathom why you would make a button visually appear as a link.  I've experienced the reverse, too.

           It does no one any good on either side of the equation.  I hate telling a client something like "bring up the list of links" then use first letter navigation by 'D' to get to that Delete link that is not, in actuality, a link.  I came to the conclusion using the elements lists and cycling through the various elements. 

           I still find it strange that the Delete (which is accompanied by the full name of the item) button also shows up in the list of form fields.  Of course, when I see form field I think edit box, and perhaps that's my problem.  I don't think of "form field" as the generic term for "object that can be interacted with on the page," and am starting to think that may be what it actually means.

           It doesn't help when I'm trying to "think JAWS" and "think NVDA" in rapid succession, either, when it comes to terminology.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Lino Morales
 

I totally agree with you and Bryan. Heck I even do what Tyler does now. I’ve done this going back to my JAWS days.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Tyler Wood <tcwood12@...>
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 1:50:01 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA
 

Gene,

What works for you may not work for others.

For example, I like arrowing through a page to make sure I'm not missing anything. Yes, it takes longer, but overall I get the layout of the page, make sure I'm not missing any information at all. What difference does it make if someone opens the elements list or uses the find feature if both methods work in the end?



On 27-Jul-2018 11:03 AM, Gene wrote:
What if you have twenty or thirty web pages you use for listening to stations?  That is what I meant when I spoke of micromemorizing pages.  It appears to me that it takes the links list a little time to open.  Then you move by first letter navigation to what you want.  I am not convinced it's faster to any significant extent or easier than opening find, typing list or listen and finding the link that way without remembering that the wrsv site, for example,  uses the word click, and the Wbcw site does but most other sites use listen.  These are fictitious examples. 
 
Quite some time ago, Send Space changed it's download link to a button.  When it happened, it cause me no problem in the slightest.  I simply typed downl and found the button immediately. 
 
When I found that it is now a button, I started typing the letter b from the top of the page.  But when the change was made, I found the button as quickly as I had found the link previously.
 
Perhaps I wrote too long a message, others will have to decide.  I wanted to make clear what I meant, and I wanted to argue forcefully for it In hopes that maybe, if any possibly influential instructors read the message, they might start making the case to others who teach and maybe, stop the pernicious way this is taught.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 8:20 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

Hi Gene,


You are largely correct on this analysis, but at times, I must confess, you have a way of stating what could be stated n a sentence or two in 10 thousand words.


What you are saying in a nutshell is that you should always scope out unfamiliar web pages and then when you know what is going on on such pages, use your quick navigation, links lists and so on.


I do this all the time and it is more or less common sense.  For example, once you scope out a page and you know that the listen live link on a web page is near the top and the word here as in 'click here' to listen' is the clickable word, then it is much easier to use the links list and when you press the letter h and hear the word here, to press enter on it to start listening.



On 7/27/2018 1:02 AM, Gene wrote:
This message is long but people may find it useful.  And it would be nice if those who teach enough to be known in the field, would advocate that teaching be changed as I describe. 
 
I have maintained for almost as long as I've known about these completely artificial, screen-reader created constructs, that they are not good to use on unfamiliar pages.  Now, you are giving excellent arguments why they shouldn't be used on familiar pages. 
 
In my strong opinion, people are much better off using the page as the page.  I realize it is the page as presented in the browse mode buffer, but it is the page as we generally work with it and it and it is not a completely artifically construct that goes outside of any unified page-as-structure gestault, to use a fancy word meaning picture or mental construction or framework.
 
It removes the user from the interface and makes him/her reliant on instructions on how to do this or that thing, as you illustrate in your example.  Just think how much more natural and directly working with the page, as presented, it is to tell the student, make sure you are at the top of the page, then search for the word cart.  Repeat the search if necessary until you get to the cart.  Then explain how to move through the cart.  I almost never use amazon so I don't recall the best ways.  And this is true on page after page.  What about a newspaper site where you want to find the editorial section on the home page.  Instead of using the links list, search for edito.  Repeat if necessary. 
 
What about a radio station site?  If you want to listen, search for listen.  If you find nothing, search for the word live or the word click.  Using the links list and using first letter navigation to find the word listen won't do any good if the link says click here to listen live.  Nor will using first letter navigation help when looking for the word "live."  You have to find the word click with first letter navigation.  It makes much more sense to search for words like listen and live or click using my method.  You will find the link every time because all three words are in the link, just not necessarily in the limited and arbitrary way this completely artificial structure imposes on looking for them. 
 
What if you are on an unfamiliar site and all you want to do is get contact information or use a contact form.  From the top of the page, search for the word "contact."  Again, what if the link says click here to contact us."  What if it says, to contact us, use this form, where "this form" is the link.  Best of luck finding it with the links list.  Using search, you will find the word contact and the link is in the sentence.  This also leads to micromemorization of pages.  Page x has something you switch to the headings list to find.  Site Y has something you look for using the buttons list.  It's not a natural way to work with web pages and you are reporting increasing dissatisfaction with how sites label structures that are not how they appear.
 
As I say from time to time, blind people shouldn't rely on the kindness of strangers when navigating web pages. 
 
I want to be very clear on the next point.  I am not aedvocating not using heading movement to skip navigation links on unfamiliar pages.  Nor am I saying that the skip blocks of links shoudn't be used.  Those uses move you past generally used patterns on a page to get to where you want.  I'm advocating against using the links list in examples such as I give above when you are on unfamiliar pages and want to find something more specific than the general beginning of text beyond a usually present structure such as navigation links.  And I'm advocating using search for finding something in the links list on unfamiliar pages where you cannot assume what the link says as the first word in the link.  I am also arguing that in teaching, using the links list removes the user from the structure of the page and should never be used or taught until the end of web page navigation instruction, if the instructor wants to teach it.  The mor3e the student works with the web page, the better.
 
The links list, this, what I consider, very improper way of teaching web page navigation has become unquestioned dogma.  I did a tutorial years ago on Internet use.  It is the only one I know that tells users, don't use the links list on unfamiliar pages.  If you want to use it on familiar pages, that's alright but I specifically tell them not to use the links list when using the tutorial even if they already are familiar with it. 
 
The other tutorials I've seen teach it near the beginning of teaching page navigation.  It's far past time someone with enough influence in the field that others will at least pay attention and think, make this case.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 10:05 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

Rick,

          Thanks.  I've figured some of this out but it is still insane.  Being sighted, it is making me crazy that there is a trend toward making objects look like other objects that they are not.   I cannot fathom why you would make a button visually appear as a link.  I've experienced the reverse, too.

           It does no one any good on either side of the equation.  I hate telling a client something like "bring up the list of links" then use first letter navigation by 'D' to get to that Delete link that is not, in actuality, a link.  I came to the conclusion using the elements lists and cycling through the various elements. 

           I still find it strange that the Delete (which is accompanied by the full name of the item) button also shows up in the list of form fields.  Of course, when I see form field I think edit box, and perhaps that's my problem.  I don't think of "form field" as the generic term for "object that can be interacted with on the page," and am starting to think that may be what it actually means.

           It doesn't help when I'm trying to "think JAWS" and "think NVDA" in rapid succession, either, when it comes to terminology.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"