Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard


Walker, Michael E
 

Hi,

 

When I am in Firefox and IE, if I copy several lines or paragraphs to the clipboard using shift+down arrow, formatting is not retained, but the text I want to copy is. How do I retain the formatting as well? How do I get NVDA to do that?

 

Thanks,

Mike


 

The first question that must be answered is:  What are you pasting in to?

I say that because if, for instance, you're pasting into Notepad you simply cannot retain the formatting under any circumstances.  It is a text editor and anything pasted into it will retain the text only.

If you're pasting into, say, Microsoft Word, what controls the retention of formatting is a combination of what you have set as your default paste behavior, or using the post-paste button that shows up to override that behavior when you need to do so.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


Walker, Michael E
 

I am pasting into Outlook.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 10:06 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

The first question that must be answered is:  What are you pasting in to?

I say that because if, for instance, you're pasting into Notepad you simply cannot retain the formatting under any circumstances.  It is a text editor and anything pasted into it will retain the text only.

If you're pasting into, say, Microsoft Word, what controls the retention of formatting is a combination of what you have set as your default paste behavior, or using the post-paste button that shows up to override that behavior when you need to do so.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


Gene
 

The only way I know to do it is to turn off browse mode, select the entire page with control a, paste it to the clip board, then copy the entire page into something which will retain the formatting.  others may tell you if Word, or some other program does this.  Then, you would copy only what you want of the entire page to the clipboard and paste it wherever you want. 
 
Either that, or use a JAWS demo where, I believe copy from page is the default.  NVDA copies from the browse mode buffer and you can't change that unless you turn off the browse mode buffer and copy the entire page since you can't select by phrase, line, etc. if you turn off the browse mode buffer.
 
Again, as yesterday, this is an important matter of user definable options that should be available.  Perhaps a small group should be convened to consider such important options and implement them.  NVDA will not be a properly capable employment or academic grade screen-reader until these sorts of abilities are implemented. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 9:56 AM
Subject: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

Hi,

 

When I am in Firefox and IE, if I copy several lines or paragraphs to the clipboard using shift+down arrow, formatting is not retained, but the text I want to copy is. How do I retain the formatting as well? How do I get NVDA to do that?

 

Thanks,

Mike


Walker, Michael E
 

Thank you, Gene. Does this feedback and questions we are discussing get seen by the developers? Are most of NVDA’s developers also on this list?

 

Thanks,

Michael E. Walker

Programmer/Analyst: HR, SSG & Corporate Systems

The Boeing Company

Email: Michael.E.Walker3@...

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 10:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

The only way I know to do it is to turn off browse mode, select the entire page with control a, paste it to the clip board, then copy the entire page into something which will retain the formatting.  others may tell you if Word, or some other program does this.  Then, you would copy only what you want of the entire page to the clipboard and paste it wherever you want. 

 

Either that, or use a JAWS demo where, I believe copy from page is the default.  NVDA copies from the browse mode buffer and you can't change that unless you turn off the browse mode buffer and copy the entire page since you can't select by phrase, line, etc. if you turn off the browse mode buffer.

 

Again, as yesterday, this is an important matter of user definable options that should be available.  Perhaps a small group should be convened to consider such important options and implement them.  NVDA will not be a properly capable employment or academic grade screen-reader until these sorts of abilities are implemented. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 9:56 AM

Subject: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

Hi,

 

When I am in Firefox and IE, if I copy several lines or paragraphs to the clipboard using shift+down arrow, formatting is not retained, but the text I want to copy is. How do I retain the formatting as well? How do I get NVDA to do that?

 

Thanks,

Mike


 

On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 11:07 AM, Walker, Michael E wrote:
I am pasting into Outlook.
I would check what your default paste settings are in the Outlook Message editor.  (Also, for complete clarity, what version of Outlook).

I just went to a page on the New York times, selected a paragraph and a half of text entirely using keyboard commands and when running NVDA, and pasted in Word and all of the formatting, including links in the article, pasted right in.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


Walker, Michael E
 

Brian, it turns out this issue is not related to which program we are using. It is to do with NVDA. If I copy something off the web to the clipboard using JAWS and paste into Outlook, formatting is retained. Please see Gene’s e-mail.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 10:30 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 11:07 AM, Walker, Michael E wrote:

I am pasting into Outlook.

I would check what your default paste settings are in the Outlook Message editor.  (Also, for complete clarity, what version of Outlook).

I just went to a page on the New York times, selected a paragraph and a half of text entirely using keyboard commands and when running NVDA, and pasted in Word and all of the formatting, including links in the article, pasted right in.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


 

Michael,

            I  did see Gene's message.   Did you see mine?

            When I have NVDA up, am looking at the New York Times and copying and pasting I am not having this issue.  I am trying to figure out either what I'm missing that you're doing that causes said issue or whether what I'm doing should work.

             I am, of course, perfectly willing to drop this entirely.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


Walker, Michael E
 

Brian,

 

What are you using to view the New York Times with NVDA?


Thanks,

Michael E. Walker

Programmer/Analyst: HR, SSG & Corporate Systems

The Boeing Company

Email: Michael.E.Walker3@...

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 11:34 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

Michael,

            I  did see Gene's message.   Did you see mine?

            When I have NVDA up, am looking at the New York Times and copying and pasting I am not having this issue.  I am trying to figure out either what I'm missing that you're doing that causes said issue or whether what I'm doing should work.

             I am, of course, perfectly willing to drop this entirely.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


 

Michael,

             I was in the Google Chrome browser for that testing cycle.   I just did the same from Firefox for this testing cycle, but I believe that it's in how we're doing our selection that's different.

             I don't use NVDA's select function, but go back to native Windows text selection once I know where I want to start from.  I've mostly been using SHIFT + Down Arrow, with NVDA in focus mode, and that's as Gene indicated.  But if I use Windows text selection keyboard commands the text is being selected just as if I'd done so with the mouse (and that includes selection of images and other bits, too) and it pastes straight into Word.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


Walker, Michael E
 

How do you know what you are selecting? When I go to asp.net and press h in Firefox to get to the first heading, I then press NVDA+space bar, to activate focus mode. When I press shift+down arrow after that, NVDA does not announce what I am selecting. The heading was not selected, when I pasted into Outlook, but other text was, and the formatting was retained.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 11:51 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

Michael,

             I was in the Google Chrome browser for that testing cycle.   I just did the same from Firefox for this testing cycle, but I believe that it's in how we're doing our selection that's different.

             I don't use NVDA's select function, but go back to native Windows text selection once I know where I want to start from.  I've mostly been using SHIFT + Down Arrow, with NVDA in focus mode, and that's as Gene indicated.  But if I use Windows text selection keyboard commands the text is being selected just as if I'd done so with the mouse (and that includes selection of images and other bits, too) and it pastes straight into Word.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


Gene
 

I hope others comment on this.  I may be wrong; I thought that ifyou copy when browse mode is on that the text is copied from the browse mode buffer which wouldn't necessarily present the article as a sighted person sees it.  That may be true.  My error may have been in thinking that if copying something like a sentence or two, that the actual information would be more or less in text format.  That may be incorrect.  But I suspect that if you copied and pasted a table with browse mode on, that it would appear not as it appears on the page but as it does with browse mode on, that is, one column of a table, then below that whole column, another table such as all the days of the week in a column, then the holidays that may appear on certain days underneath the first column.
 
It may be that when just copying text in a standard format, running down the page, it would appear in or about in the same way whether browse mode is on or off.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 11:07 AM, Walker, Michael E wrote:
I am pasting into Outlook.
I would check what your default paste settings are in the Outlook Message editor.  (Also, for complete clarity, what version of Outlook).

I just went to a page on the New York times, selected a paragraph and a half of text entirely using keyboard commands and when running NVDA, and pasted in Word and all of the formatting, including links in the article, pasted right in.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


 

Gene,

          I believe your latest suspicion is probably correct.  I found the same thing that you did if I selected when Focus Highlight showed me to be in browse mode with a thin, green dashed line indicating the navigator object selected.  When this was text of any kind I'd get straight text - formatting was not retained.

          I used the methods I document here:


once I've got myself positioned where I want to be, or at least roughly so, I really don't know how screen reader users ever get precise positioning in masses of text easily, as I'm certainly crappy at doing so using only the keyboard.

If I select that way all formatting, and additional content if  the text is interrupted by an inline image, is retained and pastes perfectly.

Someone else who's a better NVDA user than I am can test the details out.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


Walker, Michael E
 

Brian and Gene, if I select anything in browse mode, Gene is right. NVDA will copy the text the way browse mode sees it, so if I select a table, it will copy something like “Table with two columns and three rows.” That exact text would get copied.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 12:09 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

Gene,

          I believe your latest suspicion is probably correct.  I found the same thing that you did if I selected when Focus Highlight showed me to be in browse mode with a thin, green dashed line indicating the navigator object selected.  When this was text of any kind I'd get straight text - formatting was not retained.

          I used the methods I document here:


once I've got myself positioned where I want to be, or at least roughly so, I really don't know how screen reader users ever get precise positioning in masses of text easily, as I'm certainly crappy at doing so using only the keyboard.

If I select that way all formatting, and additional content if  the text is interrupted by an inline image, is retained and pastes perfectly.

Someone else who's a better NVDA user than I am can test the details out.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


Gene
 

Which is why I said to select the entire page, control a, Copy it to the clipboard, then paste it into a program where the formatting is retained and edit it there.  The whole point of browse mode is to give you a virtual cursor so you can move around the page as though there were a real cursor and it also reformats the page in some ways to make reading logical for blind readers. 
 
Without browse mode, you can move as though there were a cursor because there isn't one, except in edit fields.
 
The question is, when you select using the virtual cursor, are you selecting text as it appears in the virtual cursor or as it appears on the actual page?  Formatting, the kind of font, italics, etc. may be retained either way.  Try down arrowing through a table in browse mode and select as you go.  Copy to the clipboard and paste in a program.  Are the columns arranged as they should be or are they all columns, one underneath the other as they appear in browse mode. 
 
I just tried this on one site.  Note the difference:
Browse mode on:
Su
Mo
Tu
We
Th
Fr
Sa
 29 
 30 
 31 
 1 
 2 
 3 
 4 
 5 
 6 
 7 
 8 
 9 
 10 
 11 
 12 
 13 
 14 
 15 
 16 
 17 
 18 
 19 
 20 
 21 
 22 
 23 
 24 
 25 
 26 
 27 
 28 
 29 
 30 
 31 
1
 
Browse Mode off:

Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa

29 30 31 1 2 3 4

5 6 7 8 9 10 11

12 13 14 15 16 17 18

19 20 21 22 23 24 25

26 27 28 29 30 31 1

 

That is how the table appears to a sighted person.

 

I would think other structures are altered where advantageous to a blind reader using Browse Mode as well. 

 

When corresponding with sighted people, it is often important to be able to reproduce material from Internet pages as it appears on the page, not as browse mode reformats it for blind users.

 

JAWS gives the user a choice, copy from virtual PC cursor or copy from page,  NVDA doesn't and this is an ability that must be added if NVDA is going to be a work and academically properly capable screen-reader.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

How do you know what you are selecting? When I go to asp.net and press h in Firefox to get to the first heading, I then press NVDA+space bar, to activate focus mode. When I press shift+down arrow after that, NVDA does not announce what I am selecting. The heading was not selected, when I pasted into Outlook, but other text was, and the formatting was retained.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 11:51 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

Michael,

             I was in the Google Chrome browser for that testing cycle.   I just did the same from Firefox for this testing cycle, but I believe that it's in how we're doing our selection that's different.

             I don't use NVDA's select function, but go back to native Windows text selection once I know where I want to start from.  I've mostly been using SHIFT + Down Arrow, with NVDA in focus mode, and that's as Gene indicated.  But if I use Windows text selection keyboard commands the text is being selected just as if I'd done so with the mouse (and that includes selection of images and other bits, too) and it pastes straight into Word.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


Walker, Michael E
 

Gene, in JAWS with the virtual PC cursor active, I don’t have to choose between copying as the virtual PC cursor sees it versus how a sighted user sees it. I just select what I need and press CTRL+C. When I paste with CTRL+V to new location, I can still hear the number of columns the table is, the heading announcements, and so on, and when I press insert+f, I can validate that is how a sighted person sees it. You are right that NVDA needs to behave this way.

 

Mike

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 1:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

Which is why I said to select the entire page, control a, Copy it to the clipboard, then paste it into a program where the formatting is retained and edit it there.  The whole point of browse mode is to give you a virtual cursor so you can move around the page as though there were a real cursor and it also reformats the page in some ways to make reading logical for blind readers. 

 

Without browse mode, you can move as though there were a cursor because there isn't one, except in edit fields.

 

The question is, when you select using the virtual cursor, are you selecting text as it appears in the virtual cursor or as it appears on the actual page?  Formatting, the kind of font, italics, etc. may be retained either way.  Try down arrowing through a table in browse mode and select as you go.  Copy to the clipboard and paste in a program.  Are the columns arranged as they should be or are they all columns, one underneath the other as they appear in browse mode. 

 

I just tried this on one site.  Note the difference:

Browse mode on:

Su
Mo
Tu
We
Th
Fr
Sa
 29 
 30 
 31 
 1 
 2 
 3 
 4 
 5 
 6 
 7 
 8 
 9 
 10 
 11 
 12 
 13 
 14 
 15 
 16 
 17 
 18 
 19 
 20 
 21 
 22 
 23 
 24 
 25 
 26 
 27 
 28 
 29 
 30 
 31 

1

 

Browse Mode off:

Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa

29 30 31 1 2 3 4

5 6 7 8 9 10 11

12 13 14 15 16 17 18

19 20 21 22 23 24 25

26 27 28 29 30 31 1

 

That is how the table appears to a sighted person.

 

I would think other structures are altered where advantageous to a blind reader using Browse Mode as well. 

 

When corresponding with sighted people, it is often important to be able to reproduce material from Internet pages as it appears on the page, not as browse mode reformats it for blind users.

 

JAWS gives the user a choice, copy from virtual PC cursor or copy from page,  NVDA doesn't and this is an ability that must be added if NVDA is going to be a work and academically properly capable screen-reader.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 11:56 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

How do you know what you are selecting? When I go to asp.net and press h in Firefox to get to the first heading, I then press NVDA+space bar, to activate focus mode. When I press shift+down arrow after that, NVDA does not announce what I am selecting. The heading was not selected, when I pasted into Outlook, but other text was, and the formatting was retained.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 11:51 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

Michael,

             I was in the Google Chrome browser for that testing cycle.   I just did the same from Firefox for this testing cycle, but I believe that it's in how we're doing our selection that's different.

             I don't use NVDA's select function, but go back to native Windows text selection once I know where I want to start from.  I've mostly been using SHIFT + Down Arrow, with NVDA in focus mode, and that's as Gene indicated.  But if I use Windows text selection keyboard commands the text is being selected just as if I'd done so with the mouse (and that includes selection of images and other bits, too) and it pastes straight into Word.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

I think the point has to be here that if you are only cutting part of a formatted bit of text that part of the formatting cannot be known if it is outside of the selection, so it will paste in some way other than might have been expected.
I see no real way around this other than to somehow cut and paste all of the page or at least the currently formatted bit and paste it into word, then use cut and paste again between word docs.
I have found this works quite well.

Often of course, as I often have to do, I do not really want formatting as I'm making up a script to read using facts taken from the web.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard


Gene,

I believe your latest suspicion is probably correct. I found the same thing that you did if I selected when Focus Highlight showed me to be in browse mode with a thin, green dashed line indicating the navigator object selected. When this was text of any kind I'd get straight text - formatting was not retained.

I used the methods I document here:

* Selecting Text Using Windows Keyboard Shortcuts ( https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1Sl1yCHgIdbSAVHq1d8I9k-Gw8JBOG7_R )

once I've got myself positioned where I want to be, or at least roughly so, I really don't know how screen reader users ever get precise positioning in masses of text easily, as I'm certainly crappy at doing so using only the keyboard.

If I select that way all formatting, and additional content if the text is interrupted by an inline image, is retained and pastes perfectly.

Someone else who's a better NVDA user than I am can test the details out.

--

Brian *-* Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134

A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

~ Richard Dehmel


Gene
 

A minor corredction.  I meant to say can't in this sentence:
Without browse mode, you can't move as though there were a cursor because there isn't one, except in edit fields.  In other words, in Browse Mode, you can move as though there were a cursor and with Browse Mode off, you can't. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Gene
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

Which is why I said to select the entire page, control a, Copy it to the clipboard, then paste it into a program where the formatting is retained and edit it there.  The whole point of browse mode is to give you a virtual cursor so you can move around the page as though there were a real cursor and it also reformats the page in some ways to make reading logical for blind readers. 
 
Without browse mode, you can move as though there were a cursor because there isn't one, except in edit fields.
 
The question is, when you select using the virtual cursor, are you selecting text as it appears in the virtual cursor or as it appears on the actual page?  Formatting, the kind of font, italics, etc. may be retained either way.  Try down arrowing through a table in browse mode and select as you go.  Copy to the clipboard and paste in a program.  Are the columns arranged as they should be or are they all columns, one underneath the other as they appear in browse mode. 
 
I just tried this on one site.  Note the difference:
Browse mode on:
Su
Mo
Tu
We
Th
Fr
Sa
 29 
 30 
 31 
 1 
 2 
 3 
 4 
 5 
 6 
 7 
 8 
 9 
 10 
 11 
 12 
 13 
 14 
 15 
 16 
 17 
 18 
 19 
 20 
 21 
 22 
 23 
 24 
 25 
 26 
 27 
 28 
 29 
 30 
 31 
1
 
Browse Mode off:

Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa

29 30 31 1 2 3 4

5 6 7 8 9 10 11

12 13 14 15 16 17 18

19 20 21 22 23 24 25

26 27 28 29 30 31 1

 

That is how the table appears to a sighted person.

 

I would think other structures are altered where advantageous to a blind reader using Browse Mode as well. 

 

When corresponding with sighted people, it is often important to be able to reproduce material from Internet pages as it appears on the page, not as browse mode reformats it for blind users.

 

JAWS gives the user a choice, copy from virtual PC cursor or copy from page,  NVDA doesn't and this is an ability that must be added if NVDA is going to be a work and academically properly capable screen-reader.

 

Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

How do you know what you are selecting? When I go to asp.net and press h in Firefox to get to the first heading, I then press NVDA+space bar, to activate focus mode. When I press shift+down arrow after that, NVDA does not announce what I am selecting. The heading was not selected, when I pasted into Outlook, but other text was, and the formatting was retained.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 11:51 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

Michael,

             I was in the Google Chrome browser for that testing cycle.   I just did the same from Firefox for this testing cycle, but I believe that it's in how we're doing our selection that's different.

             I don't use NVDA's select function, but go back to native Windows text selection once I know where I want to start from.  I've mostly been using SHIFT + Down Arrow, with NVDA in focus mode, and that's as Gene indicated.  But if I use Windows text selection keyboard commands the text is being selected just as if I'd done so with the mouse (and that includes selection of images and other bits, too) and it pastes straight into Word.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


Walker, Michael E
 

Gene, I understood what you meant. If you want to get the functionality I am describing into NVDA, you, Brian, and others in this discussion are just going to need to fire up JAWS in demo mode, and see for yourself. I am not sure how else to explain it. In JAWS, if I select a partial bit of text, formatting is retained, which is what I need in the workplace. Keep in mind Gene’s point about college and employment.

 

Thanks,

Mike

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 1:25 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

A minor corredction.  I meant to say can't in this sentence:

Without browse mode, you can't move as though there were a cursor because there isn't one, except in edit fields.  In other words, in Browse Mode, you can move as though there were a cursor and with Browse Mode off, you can't. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

 

From: Gene

Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 1:15 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

Which is why I said to select the entire page, control a, Copy it to the clipboard, then paste it into a program where the formatting is retained and edit it there.  The whole point of browse mode is to give you a virtual cursor so you can move around the page as though there were a real cursor and it also reformats the page in some ways to make reading logical for blind readers. 

 

Without browse mode, you can move as though there were a cursor because there isn't one, except in edit fields.

 

The question is, when you select using the virtual cursor, are you selecting text as it appears in the virtual cursor or as it appears on the actual page?  Formatting, the kind of font, italics, etc. may be retained either way.  Try down arrowing through a table in browse mode and select as you go.  Copy to the clipboard and paste in a program.  Are the columns arranged as they should be or are they all columns, one underneath the other as they appear in browse mode. 

 

I just tried this on one site.  Note the difference:

Browse mode on:

Su
Mo
Tu
We
Th
Fr
Sa
 29 
 30 
 31 
 1 
 2 
 3 
 4 
 5 
 6 
 7 
 8 
 9 
 10 
 11 
 12 
 13 
 14 
 15 
 16 
 17 
 18 
 19 
 20 
 21 
 22 
 23 
 24 
 25 
 26 
 27 
 28 
 29 
 30 
 31 

1

 

Browse Mode off:

Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa

29 30 31 1 2 3 4

5 6 7 8 9 10 11

12 13 14 15 16 17 18

19 20 21 22 23 24 25

26 27 28 29 30 31 1

 

That is how the table appears to a sighted person.

 

I would think other structures are altered where advantageous to a blind reader using Browse Mode as well. 

 

When corresponding with sighted people, it is often important to be able to reproduce material from Internet pages as it appears on the page, not as browse mode reformats it for blind users.

 

JAWS gives the user a choice, copy from virtual PC cursor or copy from page,  NVDA doesn't and this is an ability that must be added if NVDA is going to be a work and academically properly capable screen-reader.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 11:56 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

How do you know what you are selecting? When I go to asp.net and press h in Firefox to get to the first heading, I then press NVDA+space bar, to activate focus mode. When I press shift+down arrow after that, NVDA does not announce what I am selecting. The heading was not selected, when I pasted into Outlook, but other text was, and the formatting was retained.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 11:51 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

Michael,

             I was in the Google Chrome browser for that testing cycle.   I just did the same from Firefox for this testing cycle, but I believe that it's in how we're doing our selection that's different.

             I don't use NVDA's select function, but go back to native Windows text selection once I know where I want to start from.  I've mostly been using SHIFT + Down Arrow, with NVDA in focus mode, and that's as Gene indicated.  But if I use Windows text selection keyboard commands the text is being selected just as if I'd done so with the mouse (and that includes selection of images and other bits, too) and it pastes straight into Word.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


Gene
 

You are hearing that information because JAWS is telling it to you in the new location.  A sighted person wouldn't see it on the page.  If you used the copy from virtual pc cursor option that information would appear as text on the page where you paste it.  Not what you want a sighted person to see.  The table would be formatted differently as well.  JAWS has a copy from clipboard option and, as I recall, copy from page is the default option.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 1:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

Gene, in JAWS with the virtual PC cursor active, I don’t have to choose between copying as the virtual PC cursor sees it versus how a sighted user sees it. I just select what I need and press CTRL+C. When I paste with CTRL+V to new location, I can still hear the number of columns the table is, the heading announcements, and so on, and when I press insert+f, I can validate that is how a sighted person sees it. You are right that NVDA needs to behave this way.

 

Mike

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 1:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

Which is why I said to select the entire page, control a, Copy it to the clipboard, then paste it into a program where the formatting is retained and edit it there.  The whole point of browse mode is to give you a virtual cursor so you can move around the page as though there were a real cursor and it also reformats the page in some ways to make reading logical for blind readers. 

 

Without browse mode, you can move as though there were a cursor because there isn't one, except in edit fields.

 

The question is, when you select using the virtual cursor, are you selecting text as it appears in the virtual cursor or as it appears on the actual page?  Formatting, the kind of font, italics, etc. may be retained either way.  Try down arrowing through a table in browse mode and select as you go.  Copy to the clipboard and paste in a program.  Are the columns arranged as they should be or are they all columns, one underneath the other as they appear in browse mode. 

 

I just tried this on one site.  Note the difference:

Browse mode on:

Su
Mo
Tu
We
Th
Fr
Sa
 29 
 30 
 31 
 1 
 2 
 3 
 4 
 5 
 6 
 7 
 8 
 9 
 10 
 11 
 12 
 13 
 14 
 15 
 16 
 17 
 18 
 19 
 20 
 21 
 22 
 23 
 24 
 25 
 26 
 27 
 28 
 29 
 30 
 31 

1

 

Browse Mode off:

Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa

29 30 31 1 2 3 4

5 6 7 8 9 10 11

12 13 14 15 16 17 18

19 20 21 22 23 24 25

26 27 28 29 30 31 1

 

That is how the table appears to a sighted person.

 

I would think other structures are altered where advantageous to a blind reader using Browse Mode as well. 

 

When corresponding with sighted people, it is often important to be able to reproduce material from Internet pages as it appears on the page, not as browse mode reformats it for blind users.

 

JAWS gives the user a choice, copy from virtual PC cursor or copy from page,  NVDA doesn't and this is an ability that must be added if NVDA is going to be a work and academically properly capable screen-reader.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 11:56 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

How do you know what you are selecting? When I go to asp.net and press h in Firefox to get to the first heading, I then press NVDA+space bar, to activate focus mode. When I press shift+down arrow after that, NVDA does not announce what I am selecting. The heading was not selected, when I pasted into Outlook, but other text was, and the formatting was retained.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 11:51 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

Michael,

             I was in the Google Chrome browser for that testing cycle.   I just did the same from Firefox for this testing cycle, but I believe that it's in how we're doing our selection that's different.

             I don't use NVDA's select function, but go back to native Windows text selection once I know where I want to start from.  I've mostly been using SHIFT + Down Arrow, with NVDA in focus mode, and that's as Gene indicated.  But if I use Windows text selection keyboard commands the text is being selected just as if I'd done so with the mouse (and that includes selection of images and other bits, too) and it pastes straight into Word.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel