Topics

academics and employment


Mike
 

Hello,

 

It is Mike who was talking to you all earlier about copy and paste. I am now on my personal e-mail.

 

I want to clarify what was said about the copy and paste system on the web needing to be perfected, for NVDA to be adequate for college and employment. Let us take a moment to think about what NVDA does for us, because of the hundreds if not thousands of man hours of development put into this. I pulled down the source from GitHub, after talking with Joseph Lee, to gain an appreciation of what goes into building this thing. It is incredible. I work for the Boeing Company. That is right. It is the same company that builds all the airplanes and Defense, Space, and security systems. I use NVDA as my primary screen reader in Git BASH, and Visual Studio Code. NVDA is what helped me build the Angular template for Boeing’s frontend architecture reference implementation. I only ever turn on JAWS, if I am using something highly proprietary like Citrix.

 

Do I think NVDA could use some improvements that proprietary screen readers have? Absolutely, but we must also remember the imperfections of proprietary readers. NVDA is the best reader I have found that supports Notepad++ and SQL Server Management Studio where JAWS repeats the lines, when I down arrow. JAWS is also way more heavyweight, and crashes over the simplest things. I cannot remember the last time NVDA froze.

 

Overall, what we need is an attitude of gratitude. NVDA is plenty suited for education and employment, despite its imperfection and need for a bit of improvement. Let me close out by saying use Microsoft Narrator full-time for education and employment, or even Orca for Linux. They do not have half the shit NVDA does.

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to volunteer and develop NVDA. Keep up the great work! I will use NVDA until the day I die over JAWS.

 

Mighty Mike


Roger Stewart
 

Great endorsement!  I love this one!  Everyone please pass this message along!


Roger








On 8/17/2018 7:30 PM, Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student) wrote:

Hello,

 

It is Mike who was talking to you all earlier about copy and paste. I am now on my personal e-mail.

 

I want to clarify what was said about the copy and paste system on the web needing to be perfected, for NVDA to be adequate for college and employment. Let us take a moment to think about what NVDA does for us, because of the hundreds if not thousands of man hours of development put into this. I pulled down the source from GitHub, after talking with Joseph Lee, to gain an appreciation of what goes into building this thing. It is incredible. I work for the Boeing Company. That is right. It is the same company that builds all the airplanes and Defense, Space, and security systems. I use NVDA as my primary screen reader in Git BASH, and Visual Studio Code. NVDA is what helped me build the Angular template for Boeing’s frontend architecture reference implementation. I only ever turn on JAWS, if I am using something highly proprietary like Citrix.

 

Do I think NVDA could use some improvements that proprietary screen readers have? Absolutely, but we must also remember the imperfections of proprietary readers. NVDA is the best reader I have found that supports Notepad++ and SQL Server Management Studio where JAWS repeats the lines, when I down arrow. JAWS is also way more heavyweight, and crashes over the simplest things. I cannot remember the last time NVDA froze.

 

Overall, what we need is an attitude of gratitude. NVDA is plenty suited for education and employment, despite its imperfection and need for a bit of improvement. Let me close out by saying use Microsoft Narrator full-time for education and employment, or even Orca for Linux. They do not have half the shit NVDA does.

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to volunteer and develop NVDA. Keep up the great work! I will use NVDA until the day I die over JAWS.

 

Mighty Mike



Gene
 

But if people are so concerned with gratitude that they don't speak their mind about what needs improvement, no one is being served.  JAWS is still better in a lot of employment situations and a few years ago, even one or two of the main developers said this.  Since then, NVDA has become more capable in employment situations but it still has serious drawbacks in a lot of cases. 
 
I can appreciate NVDA and the work that went into it but that has nothing to do with whether I or others should speak freely about what needs improvement. 
 
Historically, blind people have been expected to be grateful.  I appreciate things but I don't like the word grateful  It smaks of the days of rampant paternalism when blind people were expected to be little better than charity cases.  As I said, I can appreciate something like NVDA but grateful is a different word with different and very unfavorable connotations for what it means to be a blind person in modern times. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 7:30 PM
Subject: [nvda] academics and employment

Hello,

 

It is Mike who was talking to you all earlier about copy and paste. I am now on my personal e-mail.

 

I want to clarify what was said about the copy and paste system on the web needing to be perfected, for NVDA to be adequate for college and employment. Let us take a moment to think about what NVDA does for us, because of the hundreds if not thousands of man hours of development put into this. I pulled down the source from GitHub, after talking with Joseph Lee, to gain an appreciation of what goes into building this thing. It is incredible. I work for the Boeing Company. That is right. It is the same company that builds all the airplanes and Defense, Space, and security systems. I use NVDA as my primary screen reader in Git BASH, and Visual Studio Code. NVDA is what helped me build the Angular template for Boeing’s frontend architecture reference implementation. I only ever turn on JAWS, if I am using something highly proprietary like Citrix.

 

Do I think NVDA could use some improvements that proprietary screen readers have? Absolutely, but we must also remember the imperfections of proprietary readers. NVDA is the best reader I have found that supports Notepad++ and SQL Server Management Studio where JAWS repeats the lines, when I down arrow. JAWS is also way more heavyweight, and crashes over the simplest things. I cannot remember the last time NVDA froze.

 

Overall, what we need is an attitude of gratitude. NVDA is plenty suited for education and employment, despite its imperfection and need for a bit of improvement. Let me close out by saying use Microsoft Narrator full-time for education and employment, or even Orca for Linux. They do not have half the shit NVDA does.

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to volunteer and develop NVDA. Keep up the great work! I will use NVDA until the day I die over JAWS.

 

Mighty Mike


Mike
 

Ok. I didn’t mean gratitude in the sense that we must never speak our minds. I meant appreciate what has been done, while continuing to speak up about improvement. There is a balance between both, as we cannot change everything overnight. I definitely didn’t mean this in a bad way though, and understand where you’re coming from.

 

Where has JAWS succeeded in employment that NVDA didn’t?

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 9:34 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

But if people are so concerned with gratitude that they don't speak their mind about what needs improvement, no one is being served.  JAWS is still better in a lot of employment situations and a few years ago, even one or two of the main developers said this.  Since then, NVDA has become more capable in employment situations but it still has serious drawbacks in a lot of cases. 

 

I can appreciate NVDA and the work that went into it but that has nothing to do with whether I or others should speak freely about what needs improvement. 

 

Historically, blind people have been expected to be grateful.  I appreciate things but I don't like the word grateful  It smaks of the days of rampant paternalism when blind people were expected to be little better than charity cases.  As I said, I can appreciate something like NVDA but grateful is a different word with different and very unfavorable connotations for what it means to be a blind person in modern times. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 7:30 PM

Subject: [nvda] academics and employment

 

Hello,

 

It is Mike who was talking to you all earlier about copy and paste. I am now on my personal e-mail.

 

I want to clarify what was said about the copy and paste system on the web needing to be perfected, for NVDA to be adequate for college and employment. Let us take a moment to think about what NVDA does for us, because of the hundreds if not thousands of man hours of development put into this. I pulled down the source from GitHub, after talking with Joseph Lee, to gain an appreciation of what goes into building this thing. It is incredible. I work for the Boeing Company. That is right. It is the same company that builds all the airplanes and Defense, Space, and security systems. I use NVDA as my primary screen reader in Git BASH, and Visual Studio Code. NVDA is what helped me build the Angular template for Boeing’s frontend architecture reference implementation. I only ever turn on JAWS, if I am using something highly proprietary like Citrix.

 

Do I think NVDA could use some improvements that proprietary screen readers have? Absolutely, but we must also remember the imperfections of proprietary readers. NVDA is the best reader I have found that supports Notepad++ and SQL Server Management Studio where JAWS repeats the lines, when I down arrow. JAWS is also way more heavyweight, and crashes over the simplest things. I cannot remember the last time NVDA froze.

 

Overall, what we need is an attitude of gratitude. NVDA is plenty suited for education and employment, despite its imperfection and need for a bit of improvement. Let me close out by saying use Microsoft Narrator full-time for education and employment, or even Orca for Linux. They do not have half the shit NVDA does.

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to volunteer and develop NVDA. Keep up the great work! I will use NVDA until the day I die over JAWS.

 

Mighty Mike


Gene
 

I am not convinced that this discription of JAWS crashing all the time is accurate as a generalization.  It is one person's experience on how many computers, one, more than one?  You can't ever generalize performance from the report of one person.  If the report is based on JAWS being used on perhaps three or four different computers then, while still not generalizable, it has a bit of a very small sample.  But I don't believe in trying to build up NVDA's reputation  by circulating messages that criticize JAWS in this way.  I have no objection to the message being sent to the list as part of a discussion.  I object to advocating that it be widely circulated.
 
And those who do believe in this strategy might consider that those who want to build up JAWS or another product can find things in NVDA to criticize. 
 
Let's consider a few important shortcomings that are especially important in employment situations.
 
You can't change how structures are interpreted in NVDA, such as telling it to read something as a list when it isn't to see if it can work with that imposed structure better.  You can't create frames.  I once set up JAWS for someone using a VPN to read the exact lines on the screen necessary to log in.  I may have done other things as well to have JAWS read specific parts of the screen automatically or by issuing a command so the person could use the program she needed with proper control and without very excessive verbiage.  You can't do that with NVDA. Someone has to write a script.  Research It was discussed, when it came out, as being able to be tailored to do something like read a proprietary data base used at a job. 
 
Loyalty to NVDA is not productive if it stifles proper critiques of what needs improvement.  No one is served.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 8:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Great endorsement!  I love this one!  Everyone please pass this message along!


Roger








On 8/17/2018 7:30 PM, Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student) wrote:

Hello,

 

It is Mike who was talking to you all earlier about copy and paste. I am now on my personal e-mail.

 

I want to clarify what was said about the copy and paste system on the web needing to be perfected, for NVDA to be adequate for college and employment. Let us take a moment to think about what NVDA does for us, because of the hundreds if not thousands of man hours of development put into this. I pulled down the source from GitHub, after talking with Joseph Lee, to gain an appreciation of what goes into building this thing. It is incredible. I work for the Boeing Company. That is right. It is the same company that builds all the airplanes and Defense, Space, and security systems. I use NVDA as my primary screen reader in Git BASH, and Visual Studio Code. NVDA is what helped me build the Angular template for Boeing’s frontend architecture reference implementation. I only ever turn on JAWS, if I am using something highly proprietary like Citrix.

 

Do I think NVDA could use some improvements that proprietary screen readers have? Absolutely, but we must also remember the imperfections of proprietary readers. NVDA is the best reader I have found that supports Notepad++ and SQL Server Management Studio where JAWS repeats the lines, when I down arrow. JAWS is also way more heavyweight, and crashes over the simplest things. I cannot remember the last time NVDA froze.

 

Overall, what we need is an attitude of gratitude. NVDA is plenty suited for education and employment, despite its imperfection and need for a bit of improvement. Let me close out by saying use Microsoft Narrator full-time for education and employment, or even Orca for Linux. They do not have half the shit NVDA does.

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to volunteer and develop NVDA. Keep up the great work! I will use NVDA until the day I die over JAWS.

 

Mighty Mike



Chris Shook <chris0309@...>
 

I'll just say this.
I do not understand why an employer would care what screen reader you use. So long as it doesn't interfere with their system, it should be the blind person's choice which screen reader to use.
I have JAWS installed, but rarely use it because NVDA serves my purposes just fine.
Not to mention, I love how NVDA let's you know when you have a spelling error while typing. JAWS will not do that. It will only tell you which word is misspelled if you read word by word.
What I'm trying to say is I wish employers would give it a chance before making a judgment.
Chris


Mike
 

Gene, firstly, I did not mean anything malicious toward the group or you. Secondly, my entire sentence about crashing was taken out of context. I did not mean to imply that JAWS crashed the first time I used it. I do not generalize on every system…

 

You are right! I am not saying you are wrong about JAWS, OK? JAWS lets you create custom labels and other things NVDA does not. I also agree with you on using JAWS on a VPN. I am not against you or the group on anything! Calm down! Yes, JAWS will let you create frames. Yes, JAWS will let you create graphics labels and other stuff.

 

This was nothing intended for the group to get upset about. I definitely didn’t mean anything in a bad way.

 

Best,

Mike

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 9:54 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

I am not convinced that this discription of JAWS crashing all the time is accurate as a generalization.  It is one person's experience on how many computers, one, more than one?  You can't ever generalize performance from the report of one person.  If the report is based on JAWS being used on perhaps three or four different computers then, while still not generalizable, it has a bit of a very small sample.  But I don't believe in trying to build up NVDA's reputation  by circulating messages that criticize JAWS in this way.  I have no objection to the message being sent to the list as part of a discussion.  I object to advocating that it be widely circulated.

 

And those who do believe in this strategy might consider that those who want to build up JAWS or another product can find things in NVDA to criticize. 

 

Let's consider a few important shortcomings that are especially important in employment situations.

 

You can't change how structures are interpreted in NVDA, such as telling it to read something as a list when it isn't to see if it can work with that imposed structure better.  You can't create frames.  I once set up JAWS for someone using a VPN to read the exact lines on the screen necessary to log in.  I may have done other things as well to have JAWS read specific parts of the screen automatically or by issuing a command so the person could use the program she needed with proper control and without very excessive verbiage.  You can't do that with NVDA. Someone has to write a script.  Research It was discussed, when it came out, as being able to be tailored to do something like read a proprietary data base used at a job. 

 

Loyalty to NVDA is not productive if it stifles proper critiques of what needs improvement.  No one is served.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 8:27 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

Great endorsement!  I love this one!  Everyone please pass this message along!

 

 

Roger

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 8/17/2018 7:30 PM, Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student) wrote:

Hello,

 

It is Mike who was talking to you all earlier about copy and paste. I am now on my personal e-mail.

 

I want to clarify what was said about the copy and paste system on the web needing to be perfected, for NVDA to be adequate for college and employment. Let us take a moment to think about what NVDA does for us, because of the hundreds if not thousands of man hours of development put into this. I pulled down the source from GitHub, after talking with Joseph Lee, to gain an appreciation of what goes into building this thing. It is incredible. I work for the Boeing Company. That is right. It is the same company that builds all the airplanes and Defense, Space, and security systems. I use NVDA as my primary screen reader in Git BASH, and Visual Studio Code. NVDA is what helped me build the Angular template for Boeing’s frontend architecture reference implementation. I only ever turn on JAWS, if I am using something highly proprietary like Citrix.

 

Do I think NVDA could use some improvements that proprietary screen readers have? Absolutely, but we must also remember the imperfections of proprietary readers. NVDA is the best reader I have found that supports Notepad++ and SQL Server Management Studio where JAWS repeats the lines, when I down arrow. JAWS is also way more heavyweight, and crashes over the simplest things. I cannot remember the last time NVDA froze.

 

Overall, what we need is an attitude of gratitude. NVDA is plenty suited for education and employment, despite its imperfection and need for a bit of improvement. Let me close out by saying use Microsoft Narrator full-time for education and employment, or even Orca for Linux. They do not have half the shit NVDA does.

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to volunteer and develop NVDA. Keep up the great work! I will use NVDA until the day I die over JAWS.

 

Mighty Mike

 


Chris Shook <chris0309@...>
 

THis really has nothing to do with the current conversation, but I have to ask.
Since when did human society degrade to such a point that people cannot have different viewpoints on issues.
I happen to agree with Michael that I do like NVDA better than JAWS. THat is not to say JAWS is a bad product. I just prefer NVDA over JAWS.
Jean, it appears that you prefer JAWS over NVDA. That's cool to. Can't we just agree to disagree?"


Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Chris,

Yes, it appears from what I read that Gene prefers Jaws over NVDA. We all
have the right to our own opinions. We should be able to agree to disagree.
After all, that's what life is all about--differing viewpoints. I used Jaws
for years and both Jaws and NVDA are great programs. NVDA serves my needs
very well.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Chris
Shook
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 8:12 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

THis really has nothing to do with the current conversation, but I have to
ask.
Since when did human society degrade to such a point that people cannot have
different viewpoints on issues.
I happen to agree with Michael that I do like NVDA better than JAWS.
THat is not to say JAWS is a bad product. I just prefer NVDA over JAWS.
Jean, it appears that you prefer JAWS over NVDA. That's cool to. Can't we
just agree to disagree?"


Rosemarie Chavarria
 

I'll just say one more thing. Yes, I believe employers should give NVDA a
chance. I remember telling a rehabilitation counselor one time that if he
and other counselors would encourage their clients to use NVDA, they would
save lots of money. Then the money they save could be used for things like
microsoft word or things needed to do a job more efficiently.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Chris
Shook
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 7:59 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

I'll just say this.
I do not understand why an employer would care what screen reader you use.
So long as it doesn't interfere with their system, it should be the blind
person's choice which screen reader to use.
I have JAWS installed, but rarely use it because NVDA serves my purposes
just fine.
Not to mention, I love how NVDA let's you know when you have a spelling
error while typing. JAWS will not do that. It will only tell you which word
is misspelled if you read word by word.
What I'm trying to say is I wish employers would give it a chance before
making a judgment.
Chris


Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

One thing that worries me about the way Microsoft are trying to develop narrator. The development is good, but they really do need to make it easier for third party readers to use what it uses. So often I hear, well Narrator can do it, but nothing else does. I suggest this is because Narrator has a lot more access to the innards of windows than a third party screenreader does, probably due to there being fewer security issues as its built in and can use hooking into things that would be a security risk if allowed outside.
I have tried recent Narrator, and although it is than it used to be, it seems often a bit clumsy and slow compared to nvda.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student)" <mewx8b@mail.umsl.edu>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 1:30 AM
Subject: [nvda] academics and employment


Hello,

It is Mike who was talking to you all earlier about copy and paste. I am now on my personal e-mail.

I want to clarify what was said about the copy and paste system on the web needing to be perfected, for NVDA to be adequate for college and employment. Let us take a moment to think about what NVDA does for us, because of the hundreds if not thousands of man hours of development put into this. I pulled down the source from GitHub, after talking with Joseph Lee, to gain an appreciation of what goes into building this thing. It is incredible. I work for the Boeing Company. That is right. It is the same company that builds all the airplanes and Defense, Space, and security systems. I use NVDA as my primary screen reader in Git BASH, and Visual Studio Code. NVDA is what helped me build the Angular template for Boeing's frontend architecture reference implementation. I only ever turn on JAWS, if I am using something highly proprietary like Citrix.

Do I think NVDA could use some improvements that proprietary screen readers have? Absolutely, but we must also remember the imperfections of proprietary readers. NVDA is the best reader I have found that supports Notepad++ and SQL Server Management Studio where JAWS repeats the lines, when I down arrow. JAWS is also way more heavyweight, and crashes over the simplest things. I cannot remember the last time NVDA froze.

Overall, what we need is an attitude of gratitude. NVDA is plenty suited for education and employment, despite its imperfection and need for a bit of improvement. Let me close out by saying use Microsoft Narrator full-time for education and employment, or even Orca for Linux. They do not have half the shit NVDA does.

Thank you so much for taking the time to volunteer and develop NVDA. Keep up the great work! I will use NVDA until the day I die over JAWS.

Mighty Mike


Felix G.
 

Hi!
Slightly off topic:
I think there exists a common misunderstanding about being grateful vs being satisfied. If I were unable to walk and someone took me halfway to my destination, I would certainly be grateful but at the same time still dissatisfied. It's a perfectly normal and valid state to be in.
Also, expecting gratitude is an invalid standpoint. Gratitude is an emotion, and we are not generally in control over how we feel. It's the same as saying "I expect you not to be thirsty" or "I expect you to love me now."
Best,
Felix

Gene <gsasner@...> schrieb am Sa., 18. Aug. 2018 um 04:34 Uhr:

But if people are so concerned with gratitude that they don't speak their mind about what needs improvement, no one is being served.  JAWS is still better in a lot of employment situations and a few years ago, even one or two of the main developers said this.  Since then, NVDA has become more capable in employment situations but it still has serious drawbacks in a lot of cases. 
 
I can appreciate NVDA and the work that went into it but that has nothing to do with whether I or others should speak freely about what needs improvement. 
 
Historically, blind people have been expected to be grateful.  I appreciate things but I don't like the word grateful  It smaks of the days of rampant paternalism when blind people were expected to be little better than charity cases.  As I said, I can appreciate something like NVDA but grateful is a different word with different and very unfavorable connotations for what it means to be a blind person in modern times. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 7:30 PM
Subject: [nvda] academics and employment

Hello,

 

It is Mike who was talking to you all earlier about copy and paste. I am now on my personal e-mail.

 

I want to clarify what was said about the copy and paste system on the web needing to be perfected, for NVDA to be adequate for college and employment. Let us take a moment to think about what NVDA does for us, because of the hundreds if not thousands of man hours of development put into this. I pulled down the source from GitHub, after talking with Joseph Lee, to gain an appreciation of what goes into building this thing. It is incredible. I work for the Boeing Company. That is right. It is the same company that builds all the airplanes and Defense, Space, and security systems. I use NVDA as my primary screen reader in Git BASH, and Visual Studio Code. NVDA is what helped me build the Angular template for Boeing’s frontend architecture reference implementation. I only ever turn on JAWS, if I am using something highly proprietary like Citrix.

 

Do I think NVDA could use some improvements that proprietary screen readers have? Absolutely, but we must also remember the imperfections of proprietary readers. NVDA is the best reader I have found that supports Notepad++ and SQL Server Management Studio where JAWS repeats the lines, when I down arrow. JAWS is also way more heavyweight, and crashes over the simplest things. I cannot remember the last time NVDA froze.

 

Overall, what we need is an attitude of gratitude. NVDA is plenty suited for education and employment, despite its imperfection and need for a bit of improvement. Let me close out by saying use Microsoft Narrator full-time for education and employment, or even Orca for Linux. They do not have half the shit NVDA does.

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to volunteer and develop NVDA. Keep up the great work! I will use NVDA until the day I die over JAWS.

 

Mighty Mike


Gene
 

Please read my message again.  You will see that I attributed no such motives to you nor did I say you said that JAWS crashed the first time.  What I objected to was a message in response to yours that said that your message should be passed along by everyone.  I then gave some reasons I think it shouldn't.  I then explicitly stated that I have no objection to the message being sent to the list as a part of discussion.  But I don't think it is suitable to be used to promote NVDA.  I don't believe that you were malicious or were against me or the group.  what I objected to was the pass it along widely request and I gave my reasons but I didn't object to your message being sent to or discussed on list.
 
As far as JAWS crashing, you said:
JAWS is also way more heavyweight, and crashes over the simplest things.  I didn't object to the heavyweight description.  It may be much mor heavyweight, as you say.  I personally am not sure if that matters a lot on modern fast machines but I didn't object to that.  But saying it crashes over the simplist things can very easily be interpreted as that it crashes a lot since the simplist things may well be encountered very often.  I'm not saying that was your meaning, I'm saying that is a very easy way to interpret what you said.  And that was one of my reasons for objecting to the pass it along request because, while that is your experience, I don't know if it is generally true. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Gene, firstly, I did not mean anything malicious toward the group or you. Secondly, my entire sentence about crashing was taken out of context. I did not mean to imply that JAWS crashed the first time I used it. I do not generalize on every system…

 

You are right! I am not saying you are wrong about JAWS, OK? JAWS lets you create custom labels and other things NVDA does not. I also agree with you on using JAWS on a VPN. I am not against you or the group on anything! Calm down! Yes, JAWS will let you create frames. Yes, JAWS will let you create graphics labels and other stuff.

 

This was nothing intended for the group to get upset about. I definitely didn’t mean anything in a bad way.

 

Best,

Mike

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 9:54 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

I am not convinced that this discription of JAWS crashing all the time is accurate as a generalization.  It is one person's experience on how many computers, one, more than one?  You can't ever generalize performance from the report of one person.  If the report is based on JAWS being used on perhaps three or four different computers then, while still not generalizable, it has a bit of a very small sample.  But I don't believe in trying to build up NVDA's reputation  by circulating messages that criticize JAWS in this way.  I have no objection to the message being sent to the list as part of a discussion.  I object to advocating that it be widely circulated.

 

And those who do believe in this strategy might consider that those who want to build up JAWS or another product can find things in NVDA to criticize. 

 

Let's consider a few important shortcomings that are especially important in employment situations.

 

You can't change how structures are interpreted in NVDA, such as telling it to read something as a list when it isn't to see if it can work with that imposed structure better.  You can't create frames.  I once set up JAWS for someone using a VPN to read the exact lines on the screen necessary to log in.  I may have done other things as well to have JAWS read specific parts of the screen automatically or by issuing a command so the person could use the program she needed with proper control and without very excessive verbiage.  You can't do that with NVDA. Someone has to write a script.  Research It was discussed, when it came out, as being able to be tailored to do something like read a proprietary data base used at a job. 

 

Loyalty to NVDA is not productive if it stifles proper critiques of what needs improvement.  No one is served.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 8:27 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

Great endorsement!  I love this one!  Everyone please pass this message along!

 

 

Roger

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 8/17/2018 7:30 PM, Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student) wrote:

Hello,

 

It is Mike who was talking to you all earlier about copy and paste. I am now on my personal e-mail.

 

I want to clarify what was said about the copy and paste system on the web needing to be perfected, for NVDA to be adequate for college and employment. Let us take a moment to think about what NVDA does for us, because of the hundreds if not thousands of man hours of development put into this. I pulled down the source from GitHub, after talking with Joseph Lee, to gain an appreciation of what goes into building this thing. It is incredible. I work for the Boeing Company. That is right. It is the same company that builds all the airplanes and Defense, Space, and security systems. I use NVDA as my primary screen reader in Git BASH, and Visual Studio Code. NVDA is what helped me build the Angular template for Boeing’s frontend architecture reference implementation. I only ever turn on JAWS, if I am using something highly proprietary like Citrix.

 

Do I think NVDA could use some improvements that proprietary screen readers have? Absolutely, but we must also remember the imperfections of proprietary readers. NVDA is the best reader I have found that supports Notepad++ and SQL Server Management Studio where JAWS repeats the lines, when I down arrow. JAWS is also way more heavyweight, and crashes over the simplest things. I cannot remember the last time NVDA froze.

 

Overall, what we need is an attitude of gratitude. NVDA is plenty suited for education and employment, despite its imperfection and need for a bit of improvement. Let me close out by saying use Microsoft Narrator full-time for education and employment, or even Orca for Linux. They do not have half the shit NVDA does.

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to volunteer and develop NVDA. Keep up the great work! I will use NVDA until the day I die over JAWS.

 

Mighty Mike

 


Gene
 

I don't prefer JAWS over NVDA.  I objected to your pass it along widely statement and I explained why.  It has nothing to do with whether you have your own opinions and express them on the list.  I gave specific reasons I don't think the message should be passed along widely; I didn't object in the least to it being sent to or discussed on the list.  Please read my message again.  I made no general statements about people expressing opinions nor did I make any general statements about which screen-reader is better.  I discussed NVDA shortcomings in one specific context, employment.  I did so because NVDA is very good at meeting a lot of peoples' needs and I didn't generalize.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 10:12 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

THis really has nothing to do with the current conversation, but I have to ask.
Since when did human society degrade to such a point that people cannot
have different viewpoints on issues.
I happen to agree with Michael that I do like NVDA better than JAWS.
THat is not to say JAWS is a bad product. I just prefer NVDA over JAWS.
Jean, it appears that you prefer JAWS over NVDA. That's cool to. Can't
we just agree to disagree?"



erik burggraaf <erik@...>
 

Well, as I reported before, my experience is that nvda is more stable in work environments than Jaws. an employer reported to me that they tested both on their systems, and Jaws refuse to run on the customer-facing machines. even considering all the factors that would have to be in play, I feel pretty confident saying that nvda is more stable than Jaws. I would even say, much more stable than Jaws. if that is a put-down of an extremely expensive, highly proprietary, and somewhat unstable workplace application, I make no apologies.   if they build a better product, I will consider using it and endorsing it.  if I go into a work environment, and I need something that nvda doesn't offer, and Jaws will work in that situation, I will use it. I won't complain, even though I personally find a Jaws unwieldy to use.

Best,

Erik

On August 17, 2018 10:54:18 PM "Gene" <gsasner@...> wrote:

I am not convinced that this discription of JAWS crashing all the time is accurate as a generalization.  It is one person's experience on how many computers, one, more than one?  You can't ever generalize performance from the report of one person.  If the report is based on JAWS being used on perhaps three or four different computers then, while still not generalizable, it has a bit of a very small sample.  But I don't believe in trying to build up NVDA's reputation  by circulating messages that criticize JAWS in this way.  I have no objection to the message being sent to the list as part of a discussion.  I object to advocating that it be widely circulated.
 
And those who do believe in this strategy might consider that those who want to build up JAWS or another product can find things in NVDA to criticize. 
 
Let's consider a few important shortcomings that are especially important in employment situations.
 
You can't change how structures are interpreted in NVDA, such as telling it to read something as a list when it isn't to see if it can work with that imposed structure better.  You can't create frames.  I once set up JAWS for someone using a VPN to read the exact lines on the screen necessary to log in.  I may have done other things as well to have JAWS read specific parts of the screen automatically or by issuing a command so the person could use the program she needed with proper control and without very excessive verbiage.  You can't do that with NVDA. Someone has to write a script.  Research It was discussed, when it came out, as being able to be tailored to do something like read a proprietary data base used at a job. 
 
Loyalty to NVDA is not productive if it stifles proper critiques of what needs improvement.  No one is served.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 8:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Great endorsement!  I love this one!  Everyone please pass this message along!


Roger








On 8/17/2018 7:30 PM, Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student) wrote:

Hello,

 

It is Mike who was talking to you all earlier about copy and paste. I am now on my personal e-mail.

 

I want to clarify what was said about the copy and paste system on the web needing to be perfected, for NVDA to be adequate for college and employment. Let us take a moment to think about what NVDA does for us, because of the hundreds if not thousands of man hours of development put into this. I pulled down the source from GitHub, after talking with Joseph Lee, to gain an appreciation of what goes into building this thing. It is incredible. I work for the Boeing Company. That is right. It is the same company that builds all the airplanes and Defense, Space, and security systems. I use NVDA as my primary screen reader in Git BASH, and Visual Studio Code. NVDA is what helped me build the Angular template for Boeing’s frontend architecture reference implementation. I only ever turn on JAWS, if I am using something highly proprietary like Citrix.

 

Do I think NVDA could use some improvements that proprietary screen readers have? Absolutely, but we must also remember the imperfections of proprietary readers. NVDA is the best reader I have found that supports Notepad++ and SQL Server Management Studio where JAWS repeats the lines, when I down arrow. JAWS is also way more heavyweight, and crashes over the simplest things. I cannot remember the last time NVDA froze.

 

Overall, what we need is an attitude of gratitude. NVDA is plenty suited for education and employment, despite its imperfection and need for a bit of improvement. Let me close out by saying use Microsoft Narrator full-time for education and employment, or even Orca for Linux. They do not have half the shit NVDA does.

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to volunteer and develop NVDA. Keep up the great work! I will use NVDA until the day I die over JAWS.

 

Mighty Mike



Gene
 

Please read my message again.  I said nothing of the sort.  I have discussed what I said in other messages that you will see. 
 
As for which I prefer, for general nonwork and academic use, I prefer NVDA.  I haven't used JAWS to any extent for years. 
 
There are academic and work settings where NVDA would be fine.  There are many in which it would fall short and some of those could be corrected by user definable parameters available in JAWS, allowing someone who is not knowledgeable about writing NVDA scripts to do what is necessary.  That means that JAWS can be modified in many instances by someone far more quickly, such as a DVR employee or contractor who might go to the work site and do so.  With NVDA, the modifications would be done by someone writing a script, and even if it would be advantageous to have the person do so on the web site to see if the work meets the specific program use requirements well, the person would usually be scripting at a distance, using information about what is needed.  And time might be lost finding someone willing to write the script. 
 
Gene 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 12:28 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Hi, Chris,

Yes, it appears from what I read that Gene prefers Jaws over NVDA. We all
have the right to our own opinions. We should be able to agree to disagree.
After all, that's what life is all about--differing viewpoints. I used Jaws
for years and both Jaws and NVDA are great programs. NVDA serves my needs
very well.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Chris
Shook
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 8:12 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

THis really has nothing to do with the current conversation, but I have to
ask.
Since when did human society degrade to such a point that people cannot have
different viewpoints on issues.
I happen to agree with Michael that I do like NVDA better than JAWS.
THat is not to say JAWS is a bad product. I just prefer NVDA over JAWS.
Jean, it appears that you prefer JAWS over NVDA. That's cool to. Can't we
just agree to disagree?"






Mike
 

When I used JAWS with Oracle SQL Developer yesterday and had IE open to watch a getting started video, after it was over and I pressed CTRL+W to close the tab, JAWS was still running, but acted like it was sitting there. I could press ALT+TAB, and it would speak that, but not where I was. I had to press INSERT+F4 and close JAWS out. When I fired up NVDA, it worked like a charm.

 

Maybe gratitude was not the right word to use in my original message. I meant that NVDA does a hell of a lot for us, even though there is always room for improvement. Therapists are often the one that preach an attitude of gratitude. I used my Employee Assistance Program to help with depression. That is how I learned about this stuff.

 

Mike

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of erik burggraaf
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 6:49 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

Well, as I reported before, my experience is that nvda is more stable in work environments than Jaws. an employer reported to me that they tested both on their systems, and Jaws refuse to run on the customer-facing machines. even considering all the factors that would have to be in play, I feel pretty confident saying that nvda is more stable than Jaws. I would even say, much more stable than Jaws. if that is a put-down of an extremely expensive, highly proprietary, and somewhat unstable workplace application, I make no apologies.   if they build a better product, I will consider using it and endorsing it.  if I go into a work environment, and I need something that nvda doesn't offer, and Jaws will work in that situation, I will use it. I won't complain, even though I personally find a Jaws unwieldy to use.

Best,

Erik

On August 17, 2018 10:54:18 PM "Gene" <gsasner@...> wrote:

I am not convinced that this discription of JAWS crashing all the time is accurate as a generalization.  It is one person's experience on how many computers, one, more than one?  You can't ever generalize performance from the report of one person.  If the report is based on JAWS being used on perhaps three or four different computers then, while still not generalizable, it has a bit of a very small sample.  But I don't believe in trying to build up NVDA's reputation  by circulating messages that criticize JAWS in this way.  I have no objection to the message being sent to the list as part of a discussion.  I object to advocating that it be widely circulated.

 

And those who do believe in this strategy might consider that those who want to build up JAWS or another product can find things in NVDA to criticize. 

 

Let's consider a few important shortcomings that are especially important in employment situations.

 

You can't change how structures are interpreted in NVDA, such as telling it to read something as a list when it isn't to see if it can work with that imposed structure better.  You can't create frames.  I once set up JAWS for someone using a VPN to read the exact lines on the screen necessary to log in.  I may have done other things as well to have JAWS read specific parts of the screen automatically or by issuing a command so the person could use the program she needed with proper control and without very excessive verbiage.  You can't do that with NVDA. Someone has to write a script.  Research It was discussed, when it came out, as being able to be tailored to do something like read a proprietary data base used at a job. 

 

Loyalty to NVDA is not productive if it stifles proper critiques of what needs improvement.  No one is served.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 8:27 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

Great endorsement!  I love this one!  Everyone please pass this message along!

 

 

Roger

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 8/17/2018 7:30 PM, Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student) wrote:

Hello,

 

It is Mike who was talking to you all earlier about copy and paste. I am now on my personal e-mail.

 

I want to clarify what was said about the copy and paste system on the web needing to be perfected, for NVDA to be adequate for college and employment. Let us take a moment to think about what NVDA does for us, because of the hundreds if not thousands of man hours of development put into this. I pulled down the source from GitHub, after talking with Joseph Lee, to gain an appreciation of what goes into building this thing. It is incredible. I work for the Boeing Company. That is right. It is the same company that builds all the airplanes and Defense, Space, and security systems. I use NVDA as my primary screen reader in Git BASH, and Visual Studio Code. NVDA is what helped me build the Angular template for Boeing’s frontend architecture reference implementation. I only ever turn on JAWS, if I am using something highly proprietary like Citrix.

 

Do I think NVDA could use some improvements that proprietary screen readers have? Absolutely, but we must also remember the imperfections of proprietary readers. NVDA is the best reader I have found that supports Notepad++ and SQL Server Management Studio where JAWS repeats the lines, when I down arrow. JAWS is also way more heavyweight, and crashes over the simplest things. I cannot remember the last time NVDA froze.

 

Overall, what we need is an attitude of gratitude. NVDA is plenty suited for education and employment, despite its imperfection and need for a bit of improvement. Let me close out by saying use Microsoft Narrator full-time for education and employment, or even Orca for Linux. They do not have half the shit NVDA does.

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to volunteer and develop NVDA. Keep up the great work! I will use NVDA until the day I die over JAWS.

 

Mighty Mike

 


Mike
 

Brian, what have you found Narrator to do that other screen readers do not?

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 2:15 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

One thing that worries me about the way Microsoft are trying to develop narrator. The development is good, but they really do need to make it easier for third party readers to use what it uses. So often I hear, well Narrator can do it, but nothing else does. I suggest this is because Narrator has a lot more access to the innards of windows than a third party screenreader does, probably due to there being fewer security issues as its built in and can use hooking into things that would be a security risk if allowed outside.
I have tried recent Narrator, and although it is than it used to be, it seems often a bit clumsy and slow compared to nvda.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student)" <mewx8b@mail.umsl.edu>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 1:30 AM
Subject: [nvda] academics and employment


Hello,

It is Mike who was talking to you all earlier about copy and paste. I am now
on my personal e-mail.

I want to clarify what was said about the copy and paste system on the web
needing to be perfected, for NVDA to be adequate for college and employment.
Let us take a moment to think about what NVDA does for us, because of the
hundreds if not thousands of man hours of development put into this. I
pulled down the source from GitHub, after talking with Joseph Lee, to gain
an appreciation of what goes into building this thing. It is incredible. I
work for the Boeing Company. That is right. It is the same company that
builds all the airplanes and Defense, Space, and security systems. I use
NVDA as my primary screen reader in Git BASH, and Visual Studio Code. NVDA
is what helped me build the Angular template for Boeing's frontend
architecture reference implementation. I only ever turn on JAWS, if I am
using something highly proprietary like Citrix.

Do I think NVDA could use some improvements that proprietary screen readers
have? Absolutely, but we must also remember the imperfections of proprietary
readers. NVDA is the best reader I have found that supports Notepad++ and
SQL Server Management Studio where JAWS repeats the lines, when I down
arrow. JAWS is also way more heavyweight, and crashes over the simplest
things. I cannot remember the last time NVDA froze.

Overall, what we need is an attitude of gratitude. NVDA is plenty suited for
education and employment, despite its imperfection and need for a bit of
improvement. Let me close out by saying use Microsoft Narrator full-time for
education and employment, or even Orca for Linux. They do not have half the
shit NVDA does.

Thank you so much for taking the time to volunteer and develop NVDA. Keep up
the great work! I will use NVDA until the day I die over JAWS.

Mighty Mike


 

On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 03:39 PM, Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student) wrote:
I have tried recent Narrator
Which, by the way, is about to get a big, honkin' overhaul when Version 1809 hits the streets.  From what I've heard (as I don't do insider builds anymore) the command structure is being significantly modified to bring it more in line with the NVDA & JAWS worlds, but don't quote me on that.

In any case, I postponed doing any major digging in to Narrator until Version 1809 of Windows 10 comes out simply because it's been said the changes are significant and I really don't want to teach myself something much of which may become obsolete in a few short months.  It certainly shows that Microsoft is not backing off on continuing development and improvement on Narrator.

For anyone who might be interested in additional details, I believe several members of the Windows 10 for Screen Reader Users group know quite a bit more about what's around the corner than I do.  Send an e-mail message to win10+help@win10.groups.io to get a message back with subscription info and a lot more.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


 

Hi,

Yes – Narrator comes with a new modern keyboard layout that is similar in command structure to JAWS and NVDA. Note that this change is destined for Version 1809 (later this year).

There are other things that’s coming with Windows 10 Version 1809, some of which NVDA will support in 2018.3 (believe it or not, some of you are already testing this, and I sent out numerous advisories regarding this in recent weeks).

As for Win10 Forum for Screen Reader Users (owner: Joseph Lee, me), the subscription address is:

Win10+subscribe@groups.io

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 12:50 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 03:39 PM, Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student) wrote:

I have tried recent Narrator

Which, by the way, is about to get a big, honkin' overhaul when Version 1809 hits the streets.  From what I've heard (as I don't do insider builds anymore) the command structure is being significantly modified to bring it more in line with the NVDA & JAWS worlds, but don't quote me on that.

In any case, I postponed doing any major digging in to Narrator until Version 1809 of Windows 10 comes out simply because it's been said the changes are significant and I really don't want to teach myself something much of which may become obsolete in a few short months.  It certainly shows that Microsoft is not backing off on continuing development and improvement on Narrator.

For anyone who might be interested in additional details, I believe several members of the Windows 10 for Screen Reader Users group know quite a bit more about what's around the corner than I do.  Send an e-mail message to win10+help@win10.groups.io to get a message back with subscription info and a lot more.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel