[SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site


Ervin, Glenn
 

Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:

Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.

Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.  Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 


Gene
 

That's largely because of poor training, however.  Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before.  Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.  a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:

Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.

Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.  Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 


Carlos
 

    Is it not the responsibility of those who read these post to decide if they want to click on unfamiliar web links?

    If the list is monitored by moderators is it not their responsibility to make sure that all posts that contain web links be checked before allowing such posts on the list?

    It should be mandatory that all posts on the list which contain web links be thoroughly checked out before being allowed on the list.

    On more than one occasion posts have gotten on this list which should have been checked out by moderators before having ever been allowed on the list!

    There should be some kind of filtering rules set up to make sure that posts that have web links be kept out until the moderators checked them out.

    List moderators need to look at all the changes that are happening all over the internet to monitor content before it ever gets to anyone's browsers!

    And yes! I know that I will be called into the principal's office for having posted this publicly on the list for everyone to read!  However, we all need to ask the moderators to keep the list as uncluttered as possible!


On 9/26/2018 8:04 AM, Gene wrote:
That's largely because of poor training, however.  Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before.  Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.  a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:

Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.

Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.  Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 

-- 
Microsoft Windows 10.1803, NVDA 2018.2, Mozilla Firefox/Thunderbird


E.T.
 

Given the very high traffic, you want the mods to check/test every single link in every post? And every member of this list to be put on moderated status? (smiles)

From E.T.'s Keyboard...
Ancient.Aliens@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 9/26/2018 9:37 AM, Carlos wrote:
    Is it not the responsibility of those who read these post to decide if they want to click on unfamiliar web links?
    If the list is monitored by moderators is it not their responsibility to make sure that all posts that contain web links be checked before allowing such posts on the list?
    It should be mandatory that all posts on the list which contain web links be thoroughly checked out before being allowed on the list.
    On more than one occasion posts have gotten on this list which should have been checked out by moderators before having ever been allowed on the list!
    There should be some kind of filtering rules set up to make sure that posts that have web links be kept out until the moderators checked them out.
    List moderators need to look at all the changes that are happening all over the internet to monitor content before it ever gets to anyone's browsers!
    And yes! I know that I will be called into the principal's office for having posted this publicly on the list for everyone to read!
However, we all need to ask the moderators to keep the list as uncluttered as possible!
On 9/26/2018 8:04 AM, Gene wrote:
That's largely because of poor training, however.  Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before.  Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.  a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Ervin, Glenn <mailto:glenn.ervin@nebraska.gov>
*Sent:* Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.

Glenn

*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of *Brian Vogel
*Sent:* Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:

Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and
tel them.

Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.  Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.

--

Brian *-*Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134

/The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . ./

           ~ Bertrand Russell
--
Microsoft Windows 10.1803, NVDA 2018.2, Mozilla Firefox/Thunderbird


Rosemarie Chavarria
 

You're being called into the principal's office right now. Since when did you become the moderator? I supose now you'll put us all on moderated status--hahahahahahahahaha.

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Carlos
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

    Is it not the responsibility of those who read these post to decide if they want to click on unfamiliar web links?

    If the list is monitored by moderators is it not their responsibility to make sure that all posts that contain web links be checked before allowing such posts on the list?

    It should be mandatory that all posts on the list which contain web links be thoroughly checked out before being allowed on the list.

    On more than one occasion posts have gotten on this list which should have been checked out by moderators before having ever been allowed on the list!

    There should be some kind of filtering rules set up to make sure that posts that have web links be kept out until the moderators checked them out.

    List moderators need to look at all the changes that are happening all over the internet to monitor content before it ever gets to anyone's browsers!

    And yes! I know that I will be called into the principal's office for having posted this publicly on the list for everyone to read!  However, we all need to ask the moderators to keep the list as uncluttered as possible!

 

On 9/26/2018 8:04 AM, Gene wrote:

That's largely because of poor training, however.  Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before.  Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.  a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:

Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.

Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.  Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 

-- 
Microsoft Windows 10.1803, NVDA 2018.2, Mozilla Firefox/Thunderbird


Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Carlos,


Why did you post this item about list moderators in the  thread concerning the submit button issue?  Sounds like hijacking to me!


On 9/26/2018 12:37 PM, Carlos wrote:

    Is it not the responsibility of those who read these post to decide if they want to click on unfamiliar web links?

    If the list is monitored by moderators is it not their responsibility to make sure that all posts that contain web links be checked before allowing such posts on the list?

    It should be mandatory that all posts on the list which contain web links be thoroughly checked out before being allowed on the list.

    On more than one occasion posts have gotten on this list which should have been checked out by moderators before having ever been allowed on the list!

    There should be some kind of filtering rules set up to make sure that posts that have web links be kept out until the moderators checked them out.

    List moderators need to look at all the changes that are happening all over the internet to monitor content before it ever gets to anyone's browsers!

    And yes! I know that I will be called into the principal's office for having posted this publicly on the list for everyone to read!  However, we all need to ask the moderators to keep the list as uncluttered as possible!


On 9/26/2018 8:04 AM, Gene wrote:
That's largely because of poor training, however.  Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before.  Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.  a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:

Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.

Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.  Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 

-- 
Microsoft Windows 10.1803, NVDA 2018.2, Mozilla Firefox/Thunderbird

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Sounds like hijacking to me too. That post from Carlos wasn't necessary.

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ron Canazzi
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 12:00 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Hi Carlos,

 

Why did you post this item about list moderators in the  thread concerning the submit button issue?  Sounds like hijacking to me!

 

On 9/26/2018 12:37 PM, Carlos wrote:

    Is it not the responsibility of those who read these post to decide if they want to click on unfamiliar web links?

    If the list is monitored by moderators is it not their responsibility to make sure that all posts that contain web links be checked before allowing such posts on the list?

    It should be mandatory that all posts on the list which contain web links be thoroughly checked out before being allowed on the list.

    On more than one occasion posts have gotten on this list which should have been checked out by moderators before having ever been allowed on the list!

    There should be some kind of filtering rules set up to make sure that posts that have web links be kept out until the moderators checked them out.

    List moderators need to look at all the changes that are happening all over the internet to monitor content before it ever gets to anyone's browsers!

    And yes! I know that I will be called into the principal's office for having posted this publicly on the list for everyone to read!  However, we all need to ask the moderators to keep the list as uncluttered as possible!

 

On 9/26/2018 8:04 AM, Gene wrote:

That's largely because of poor training, however.  Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before.  Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.  a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:

Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.

Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.  Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 

-- 
Microsoft Windows 10.1803, NVDA 2018.2, Mozilla Firefox/Thunderbird



-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


E.T.
 

And neither are these responses, including mine. (smiles)

From E.T.'s Keyboard...
Ancient.Aliens@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 9/26/2018 12:38 PM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
Sounds like hijacking to me too. That post from Carlos wasn't necessary.
*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] *On Behalf Of *Ron Canazzi
*Sent:* Wednesday, September 26, 2018 12:00 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
Hi Carlos,
Why did you post this item about list moderators in the  thread concerning the submit button issue?  Sounds like hijacking to me!
On 9/26/2018 12:37 PM, Carlos wrote:
    Is it not the responsibility of those who read these post to
decide if they want to click on unfamiliar web links?
    If the list is monitored by moderators is it not their
responsibility to make sure that all posts that contain web links be
checked before allowing such posts on the list?
    It should be mandatory that all posts on the list which contain
web links be thoroughly checked out before being allowed on the list.
    On more than one occasion posts have gotten on this list which
should have been checked out by moderators before having ever been
allowed on the list!
    There should be some kind of filtering rules set up to make
sure that posts that have web links be kept out until the moderators
checked them out.
    List moderators need to look at all the changes that are
happening all over the internet to monitor content before it ever
gets to anyone's browsers!
    And yes! I know that I will be called into the principal's
office for having posted this publicly on the list for everyone to
read!  However, we all need to ask the moderators to keep the list
as uncluttered as possible!
On 9/26/2018 8:04 AM, Gene wrote:
That's largely because of poor training, however.  Not for
everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn
perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a
different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do
before.  Most of what people do uses Windows or program
commands.  a different screen-reader may use different screen
review commands and a different command for read title bar and
certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the
same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader
commands.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Ervin, Glenn <mailto:glenn.ervin@nebraska.gov>
*Sent:* Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit
Button On My Banking Site
Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay
for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as
generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left
behind.
Glenn
*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
*Brian Vogel
*Sent:* Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit
Button On My Banking Site
On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:
Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank
and tel them.
Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but
you also have to understand that accessibility will always be,
to some extent, a game of catch up.
Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not
going to stop.  Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers
catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a
certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.
It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't
work under one screen reader might work under another if you
happen to have a system with two or more screen readers
available.  That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
--
Brian *-* Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134
/The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional
morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction
to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for
another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . ./
           ~ Bertrand Russell
--
Microsoft Windows 10.1803, NVDA 2018.2, Mozilla Firefox/Thunderbird
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Gene
 

It may not be hijacking.  It may be that the message was placed in this thread because the wrong thread was replied to by accident. 
 
As far as the suggestion that all links be approved, that is not possible if, for no other reason, than that lists don't have a provision for requiring messages with links to be approved while allowing those without links to be sent without moderator approval. 
 
I also think that members should be responsible for determining what they do or do not click on.  People should be responsible for what they do.If they are not allowed to be responsible, how will they learn to be responsible and to follow proper safety rules of Internet use for themselves.  Lists are not nannies.  Sometimes, an unfortunate mistake causes someone to really start taking their own safety seriously.  If they aren't following safe practices on lists in terms of their Internet behavior, then they are likely not following safe practices in general. 
 
Since either the wrong thread on this list or perhaps a thread on an entirely different list was intended to be replied to, we can't discuss whatever links are being objected to.  As far as I know, there aren't any objectionable links in this thread.
 
I am discussing my views of this matter but I am not moderating in this case.
 
Gene 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

    And neither are these responses, including mine. (smiles)

 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
    Ancient.Aliens@...
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 9/26/2018 12:38 PM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
> Sounds like hijacking to me too. That post from Carlos wasn't necessary.
>
> *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] *On Behalf Of
> *Ron Canazzi
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 26, 2018 12:00 PM
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
> *Subject:* Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On
> My Banking Site
>
> Hi Carlos,
>
> Why did you post this item about list moderators in the  thread
> concerning the submit button issue?  Sounds like hijacking to me!
>
> On 9/26/2018 12:37 PM, Carlos wrote:
>
>          Is it not the responsibility of those who read these post to
>     decide if they want to click on unfamiliar web links?
>
>          If the list is monitored by moderators is it not their
>     responsibility to make sure that all posts that contain web links be
>     checked before allowing such posts on the list?
>
>          It should be mandatory that all posts on the list which contain
>     web links be thoroughly checked out before being allowed on the list.
>
>          On more than one occasion posts have gotten on this list which
>     should have been checked out by moderators before having ever been
>     allowed on the list!
>
>          There should be some kind of filtering rules set up to make
>     sure that posts that have web links be kept out until the moderators
>     checked them out.
>
>          List moderators need to look at all the changes that are
>     happening all over the internet to monitor content before it ever
>     gets to anyone's browsers!
>
>          And yes! I know that I will be called into the principal's
>     office for having posted this publicly on the list for everyone to
>     read!  However, we all need to ask the moderators to keep the list
>     as uncluttered as possible!
>
>     On 9/26/2018 8:04 AM, Gene wrote:
>
>         That's largely because of poor training, however.  Not for
>         everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn
>         perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a
>         different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do
>         before.  Most of what people do uses Windows or program
>         commands.  a different screen-reader may use different screen
>         review commands and a different command for read title bar and
>         certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the
>         same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader
>         commands.
>
>         Gene
>
>         ----- Original Message -----
>
>         *From:* Ervin, Glenn <mailto:glenn.ervin@...>
>
>         *Sent:* Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM
>
>         *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>
>         *Subject:* Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit
>         Button On My Banking Site
>
>         Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay
>         for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as
>         generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left
>         behind.
>
>         Glenn
>
>         *From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>         <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
>         *Brian Vogel
>         *Sent:* Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
>         *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>         *Subject:* [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit
>         Button On My Banking Site
>
>         On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:
>
>             Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank
>             and tel them.
>
>         Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but
>         you also have to understand that accessibility will always be,
>         to some extent, a game of catch up.
>
>         Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not
>         going to stop.  Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers
>         catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a
>         certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.
>
>         It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't
>         work under one screen reader might work under another if you
>         happen to have a system with two or more screen readers
>         available.  That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
>
>         --
>
>         Brian *-* Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134
>
>         /The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional
>         morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction
>         to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for
>         another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . ./
>
>                     ~ Bertrand Russell
>
>     --
>
>     Microsoft Windows 10.1803, NVDA 2018.2, Mozilla Firefox/Thunderbird
>
>
>
> --
>
> They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
>
> They ask: "How Happy are You?"
>
> I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
>
>




Ervin, Glenn
 

Gene,

All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.

I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that happens to work.

It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for screenreaders to keep up.

I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.

I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.

I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.

I hope I’m wrong about the trend.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

That's largely because of poor training, however.  Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before.  Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.  a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:

Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.

Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.  Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 


 

On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 10:22 AM, Ervin, Glenn wrote:

I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.

I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.

I hope I’m wrong about the trend.

And I see just the opposite.  Accessibility, overall, has done nothing but get better and better in the decades I've been around that issue and we now have every major commercial operating system maker building-in screen reader technology.

Teaching at the college level (and, possibly, even earlier) related to web design discusses accessibility as a design principle, which it certainly didn't when I earned my computer science degree.

The idea that accessibility is getting worse has no merit.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 


Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Glen,

 

I think you might be right. A friend of mine was telling me one time that it may get to the point where we'll be totally locked out from using the computer. I agree with you about the training. If things are constantly changing, then what good is it to have all that training? It would be just a waste of time.

 

Rosemarie

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ervin, Glenn
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 7:22 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Gene,

All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.

I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that happens to work.

It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for screenreaders to keep up.

I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.

I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.

I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.

I hope I’m wrong about the trend.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

That's largely because of poor training, however.  Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before.  Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.  a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:

Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.

Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.  Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 


Ervin, Glenn
 

As far as desktop systems, I suspect Microsoft is going to move away from them after Windows 10, and desktop systems will be left to Linux.

I think Microsoft will simply sell security upgrades to Windows 7 and 10, with 10 being their last official desktop style operating system.

Thankfully Linux has accessibility built into the main distributions.

If we see Windows discontinuing for desktop systems, we may hope for the developers of NVDA to move over to the Open source Linux platform.

Glenn the uncertain prognosticator

LOL

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 11:06 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Glen,

 

I think you might be right. A friend of mine was telling me one time that it may get to the point where we'll be totally locked out from using the computer. I agree with you about the training. If things are constantly changing, then what good is it to have all that training? It would be just a waste of time.

 

Rosemarie

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ervin, Glenn
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 7:22 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Gene,

All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.

I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that happens to work.

It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for screenreaders to keep up.

I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.

I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.

I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.

I hope I’m wrong about the trend.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

That's largely because of poor training, however.  Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before.  Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.  a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:

Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.

Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.  Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 


Jackie
 

W/all due respect, training is not a waste of time, at least if it's
the sort of training that teaches basic principles & not simply rote
memorization, ie, shake hands, roll over, speak, etc. That's just
performing commands on cue, & that sort of training is indeed
worthless. When I did adaptive tech--& admittedly, it was a long time
ago--I actually used to encourage my students to get into trouble, ie,
they would check w/me about a keystroke to press, &, knowing it was
the wrong 1, I'd tell them to go ahead. My rationale was that they
were going to get themselves into situations where they were
confronted w/stuff I hadn't taught them, & they needed to understand
the basic principles of how to cope w/the unexpected. That may at 1st
blush sound really cruel, but those that made it thru expressed that
was the 1 thing they really appreciated about my approach, ie, that I
believed they could recover on their own by using the tools they'd
been taught.

Accessibility, IMO, has overall greatly improved. The use of mobile
devices, where screen real estate is important, thereby eliminating a
lot of the big gawdy banners & sliders etc, has improved things, as
has legislation in the developed world mandating accessibility. I
recall when Windows was completely inaccessible to us--now we can
basically install it independently. So I'd also disagree w/the
gloom-&-doom naysayers who think we'll someday never be able to use a
computer. The truth is, we have more options now than we've ever had.
I recall when Apple was totally inaccessible, for example, & when we
couldn't use a cell phone to do anything but basic calling.
Change is a constant, & screenreading technology will have to evolve
w/it. On the other hand, there are now accessibility guidelines in
place for many technologies, which there weren't in the last century.
Overall, I think we're in better shape than we've ever been.
Truthfully, I wish I'd been born into this century, as I think, at
least from a technology perspective, things will overall only improve,
as a general rule.

On 9/27/18, Rosemarie Chavarria <knitqueen2007@gmail.com> wrote:
Glen,



I think you might be right. A friend of mine was telling me one time that it
may get to the point where we'll be totally locked out from using the
computer. I agree with you about the training. If things are constantly
changing, then what good is it to have all that training? It would be just a
waste of time.



Rosemarie



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ervin,
Glenn
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 7:22 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
Banking Site



Gene,

All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can
cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.

I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have
spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no
work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure
technique that happens to work.

It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult
for screenreaders to keep up.

I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.

I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people
being able to access pages.

I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.

I hope I’m wrong about the trend.

Glenn



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
Banking Site



That's largely because of poor training, however. Not for everything, but
for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands
that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you
could do before. Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.
a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a
different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot
of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't
use screen-reader commands.



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn <mailto:glenn.ervin@nebraska.gov>

Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
Banking Site



Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of
us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice,
then the majority of users are left behind.

Glenn





From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
Banking Site



On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:

Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.

Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have
to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of
catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.
Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and
particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way
revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one
screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with
two or more screen readers available. That can help to tease out where the
issue might lie.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134

The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals,
which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot
co-exist with a serious affection for another. Everybody knows that this is
untrue. . .

~ Bertrand Russell










--
Remember! Friends Help Friends Be Cybersafe
Jackie McBride
Helping Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a Time
https://brighter-vision.com


Gene
 

I didn't say that this isn't occurring on the Internet.  I haven't used enough sites that are out of my usual use to say.  I am making a general statement about blind people using only one screen-reader, as so many do.  This is the result of poore training.  I wasn't refering specifically to or only to the Internet.  I was discussing how so many blind people don't realize the advantages to using more than one screen-reader on the Internet or elsewhere.  If blind people knew what I said in my last message in the thread, they might be more willing to try other screen-readers so that when one screen-reader doesn't do something well, they might be able to do the thing better or well using another screen-reader.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Gene,

All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.

I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that happens to work.

It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for screenreaders to keep up.

I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.

I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.

I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.

I hope I’m wrong about the trend.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

That's largely because of poor training, however.  Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before.  Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.  a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:

Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.

Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.  Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 


Ervin, Glenn
 

Hi Gene,

I gathered that, but it is my experience that the majority of Blind users, most of whom aren’t even on a listserve, struggle to use even one screenreader, much less other operating systems.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

I didn't say that this isn't occurring on the Internet.  I haven't used enough sites that are out of my usual use to say.  I am making a general statement about blind people using only one screen-reader, as so many do.  This is the result of poore training.  I wasn't refering specifically to or only to the Internet.  I was discussing how so many blind people don't realize the advantages to using more than one screen-reader on the Internet or elsewhere.  If blind people knew what I said in my last message in the thread, they might be more willing to try other screen-readers so that when one screen-reader doesn't do something well, they might be able to do the thing better or well using another screen-reader.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:22 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Gene,

All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.

I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that happens to work.

It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for screenreaders to keep up.

I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.

I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.

I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.

I hope I’m wrong about the trend.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

That's largely because of poor training, however.  Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before.  Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.  a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:

Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.

Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.  Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 


Gene
 

Let's examine an example of worthless training as opposed to good training.  Years ago,
Send Space had a download link.  If people were tought something such as to use the links list and look for the link that said download, then what would happen when Send Space changed it from a link to a button?  If they were just taught by rote, they would likely be unable to use the page.  If they had been taught to look at and understand web pages and how to find things, they would see that the link was now a button and then, after they saw this, be able to go on efficiently using the page as before.  How many times have I seen blind people claim that a site is no longer acccessible after it has been changed?  It wasn't inaccessible after the change.  Changes had been made in the site and rote memorization of the old layout didn't work any longer. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Jackie
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

W/all due respect, training is not a waste of time, at least if it's
the sort of training that teaches basic principles & not simply rote
memorization, ie, shake hands, roll over, speak, etc. That's just
performing commands on cue, & that sort of training is indeed
worthless. When I did adaptive tech--& admittedly, it was a long time
ago--I actually used to encourage my students to get into trouble, ie,
they would check w/me about a keystroke to press, &, knowing it was
the wrong 1, I'd tell them to go ahead. My rationale was that they
were going to get themselves into situations where they were
confronted w/stuff I hadn't taught them, & they needed to understand
the basic principles of how to cope w/the unexpected. That may at 1st
blush sound really cruel, but those that made it thru expressed that
was the 1 thing they really appreciated about my approach, ie, that I
believed they could recover on their own by using the tools they'd
been taught.

Accessibility, IMO, has overall greatly improved. The use of mobile
devices, where screen real estate is important, thereby eliminating a
lot of the big gawdy banners & sliders etc, has improved things, as
has legislation in the developed world mandating accessibility. I
recall when Windows was completely inaccessible to us--now we can
basically install it independently. So I'd also disagree w/the
gloom-&-doom naysayers who think we'll someday never be able to use a
computer. The truth is, we have more options now than we've ever had.
I recall when Apple was totally inaccessible, for example, & when we
couldn't use a cell phone to do anything but basic calling.
Change is a constant, & screenreading technology will have to evolve
w/it. On the other hand, there are now accessibility guidelines in
place for many technologies, which there weren't in the last century.
Overall, I think we're in better shape than we've ever been.
Truthfully, I wish I'd been born into this century, as I think, at
least from a technology perspective, things will overall only improve,
as a general rule.

On 9/27/18, Rosemarie Chavarria <knitqueen2007@...> wrote:
> Glen,
>
>
>
> I think you might be right. A friend of mine was telling me one time that it
> may get to the point where we'll be totally locked out from using the
> computer. I agree with you about the training. If things are constantly
> changing, then what good is it to have all that training? It would be just a
> waste of time.
>
>
>
> Rosemarie
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ervin,
> Glenn
> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 7:22 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
> Banking Site
>
>
>
> Gene,
>
> All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can
> cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.
>
> I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have
> spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no
> work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure
> technique that happens to work.
>
> It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult
> for screenreaders to keep up.
>
> I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.
>
> I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people
> being able to access pages.
>
> I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.
>
> I hope I’m wrong about the trend.
>
> Glenn
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>  <nvda@nvda.groups.io
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > On Behalf Of Gene
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
> Banking Site
>
>
>
> That's largely because of poor training, however.  Not for everything, but
> for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands
> that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you
> could do before.  Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.
> a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a
> different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot
> of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't
> use screen-reader commands.
>
>
>
> Gene
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Ervin, Glenn <mailto:glenn.ervin@...>
>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM
>
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>
> Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
> Banking Site
>
>
>
> Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of
> us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice,
> then the majority of users are left behind.
>
> Glenn
>
>
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>  <nvda@nvda.groups.io
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
> Banking Site
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:
>
> Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.
>
> Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have
> to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of
> catch up.
>
> Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.
> Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and
> particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way
> revolves around increased security.
>
> It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one
> screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with
> two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the
> issue might lie.
>
> --
>
> Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134
>
>     The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals,
> which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot
> co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is
> untrue. . .
>
>            ~ Bertrand Russell
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Remember! Friends Help Friends Be Cybersafe
Jackie McBride
Helping Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a Time
https://brighter-vision.com



Gene
 

Because of poor training.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Hi Gene,

I gathered that, but it is my experience that the majority of Blind users, most of whom aren’t even on a listserve, struggle to use even one screenreader, much less other operating systems.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

I didn't say that this isn't occurring on the Internet.  I haven't used enough sites that are out of my usual use to say.  I am making a general statement about blind people using only one screen-reader, as so many do.  This is the result of poore training.  I wasn't refering specifically to or only to the Internet.  I was discussing how so many blind people don't realize the advantages to using more than one screen-reader on the Internet or elsewhere.  If blind people knew what I said in my last message in the thread, they might be more willing to try other screen-readers so that when one screen-reader doesn't do something well, they might be able to do the thing better or well using another screen-reader.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:22 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Gene,

All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.

I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that happens to work.

It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for screenreaders to keep up.

I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.

I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.

I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.

I hope I’m wrong about the trend.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

That's largely because of poor training, however.  Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before.  Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.  a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:

Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.

Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.  Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 


Ervin, Glenn
 

Gene,

Things change that proficient screenreader users cannot adapt easily to as well.

For example, I did not know about menus containing hidden options.

So I went to a page, and I am looking for a download button.

I jump through looking for a download button with the letter B, and that does not work.

I list links, and press D and find no download button, nor arrowing through them finds anything relating to a download option.

So I use the find command looking for the word down and find nothing.

Without knowing that there is a new thing where content is different and there is something new, I can see where someone who is a casual user will find a page inaccessible.

 

You look at computer usage like all screenreader users should be at the level of the folks on this list, and the truth is, most are not, and will never be that proficient, so for accessibility to be a reality, things need to improve, and become more intuitive.

Having a button that says menu closed is easily overlooked.

Perhaps the sighted have some graphics there indicating what is hidden in that closed menu, but there is no description to us, we have to know to open the closed menus and see if that gives us what we want.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 1:20 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Let's examine an example of worthless training as opposed to good training.  Years ago,

Send Space had a download link.  If people were tought something such as to use the links list and look for the link that said download, then what would happen when Send Space changed it from a link to a button?  If they were just taught by rote, they would likely be unable to use the page.  If they had been taught to look at and understand web pages and how to find things, they would see that the link was now a button and then, after they saw this, be able to go on efficiently using the page as before.  How many times have I seen blind people claim that a site is no longer acccessible after it has been changed?  It wasn't inaccessible after the change.  Changes had been made in the site and rote memorization of the old layout didn't work any longer. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Jackie

Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 11:26 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

W/all due respect, training is not a waste of time, at least if it's
the sort of training that teaches basic principles & not simply rote
memorization, ie, shake hands, roll over, speak, etc. That's just
performing commands on cue, & that sort of training is indeed
worthless. When I did adaptive tech--& admittedly, it was a long time
ago--I actually used to encourage my students to get into trouble, ie,
they would check w/me about a keystroke to press, &, knowing it was
the wrong 1, I'd tell them to go ahead. My rationale was that they
were going to get themselves into situations where they were
confronted w/stuff I hadn't taught them, & they needed to understand
the basic principles of how to cope w/the unexpected. That may at 1st
blush sound really cruel, but those that made it thru expressed that
was the 1 thing they really appreciated about my approach, ie, that I
believed they could recover on their own by using the tools they'd
been taught.

Accessibility, IMO, has overall greatly improved. The use of mobile
devices, where screen real estate is important, thereby eliminating a
lot of the big gawdy banners & sliders etc, has improved things, as
has legislation in the developed world mandating accessibility. I
recall when Windows was completely inaccessible to us--now we can
basically install it independently. So I'd also disagree w/the
gloom-&-doom naysayers who think we'll someday never be able to use a
computer. The truth is, we have more options now than we've ever had.
I recall when Apple was totally inaccessible, for example, & when we
couldn't use a cell phone to do anything but basic calling.
Change is a constant, & screenreading technology will have to evolve
w/it. On the other hand, there are now accessibility guidelines in
place for many technologies, which there weren't in the last century.
Overall, I think we're in better shape than we've ever been.
Truthfully, I wish I'd been born into this century, as I think, at
least from a technology perspective, things will overall only improve,
as a general rule.

On 9/27/18, Rosemarie Chavarria <knitqueen2007@...> wrote:
> Glen,
>
>
>
> I think you might be right. A friend of mine was telling me one time that it
> may get to the point where we'll be totally locked out from using the
> computer. I agree with you about the training. If things are constantly
> changing, then what good is it to have all that training? It would be just a
> waste of time.
>
>
>
> Rosemarie
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ervin,
> Glenn
> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 7:22 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
> Banking Site
>
>
>
> Gene,
>
> All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can
> cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.
>
> I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have
> spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no
> work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure
> technique that happens to work.
>
> It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult
> for screenreaders to keep up.
>
> I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.
>
> I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people
> being able to access pages.
>
> I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.
>
> I hope I’m wrong about the trend.
>
> Glenn
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>  <nvda@nvda.groups.io
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > On Behalf Of Gene
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
> Banking Site
>
>
>
> That's largely because of poor training, however.  Not for everything, but
> for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands
> that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you
> could do before.  Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.
> a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a
> different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot
> of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't
> use screen-reader commands.
>
>
>
> Gene
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Ervin, Glenn <mailto:glenn.ervin@...>
>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM
>
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>
> Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
> Banking Site
>
>
>
> Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of
> us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice,
> then the majority of users are left behind.
>
> Glenn
>
>
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>  <nvda@nvda.groups.io
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
> Banking Site
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:
>
> Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.
>
> Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have
> to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of
> catch up.
>
> Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.
> Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and
> particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way
> revolves around increased security.
>
> It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one
> screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with
> two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the
> issue might lie.
>
> --
>
> Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134
>
>     The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals,
> which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot
> co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is
> untrue. . .
>
>            ~ Bertrand Russell
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Remember! Friends Help Friends Be Cybersafe
Jackie McBride
Helping Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a Time
https://brighter-vision.com


Ervin, Glenn
 

Gene,

The level of training you are referring to is either unaffordable on their limited income, or beyond their interest level.

Remember, even the average requirements of using a screenreader is more than most sighted folks would learn to use the computer.

If they cannot touch what they want or click on it with a mouse, it is beyond what the majority of sighted folks would be willing to learn, and why should the Blind be any different?

We are forced to learn stuff that many would not even consider if they did not have to.

Believe me, I’m in the real world seeing newly Blinded folks all the time, and only the most highly motivated of them are interested in learning to use a screenreader.

I find it disappointing, but that is the truth.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Because of poor training.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:56 PM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Hi Gene,

I gathered that, but it is my experience that the majority of Blind users, most of whom aren’t even on a listserve, struggle to use even one screenreader, much less other operating systems.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

I didn't say that this isn't occurring on the Internet.  I haven't used enough sites that are out of my usual use to say.  I am making a general statement about blind people using only one screen-reader, as so many do.  This is the result of poore training.  I wasn't refering specifically to or only to the Internet.  I was discussing how so many blind people don't realize the advantages to using more than one screen-reader on the Internet or elsewhere.  If blind people knew what I said in my last message in the thread, they might be more willing to try other screen-readers so that when one screen-reader doesn't do something well, they might be able to do the thing better or well using another screen-reader.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:22 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Gene,

All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.

I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that happens to work.

It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for screenreaders to keep up.

I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.

I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.

I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.

I hope I’m wrong about the trend.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

That's largely because of poor training, however.  Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before.  Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.  a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:

Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.

Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.  Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell