[SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site


Ervin, Glenn
 

I do a lot on-line, and I have certainly encountered more problems that only a very seasoned user can get through, and some sites that cannot be gotten through without multiple screenreaders, if at all.

That is merit enough to prove my point.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:45 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 10:22 AM, Ervin, Glenn wrote:

I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.

I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.

I hope I’m wrong about the trend.

And I see just the opposite.  Accessibility, overall, has done nothing but get better and better in the decades I've been around that issue and we now have every major commercial operating system maker building-in screen reader technology.

Teaching at the college level (and, possibly, even earlier) related to web design discusses accessibility as a design principle, which it certainly didn't when I earned my computer science degree.

The idea that accessibility is getting worse has no merit.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 


 

Accessibility in the web world is, and always has been, a game of catch-up.  That is going to get worse, at least in cycles, rather than better.

That is not indicative of the long-term arc, which is unquestionably toward better accessibility.

I'm not denying that when periods of rapid change in web coding appear, there are corresponding periods of accessibility woes.  These days, though, those tend to resolve in favor of accessibility, which was not necessarily the case for decades.

If one goes in knowing this, and accepting it as a simple fact, one can avoid a lot of "gloom and doom" thinking, if not frustration.  It's supremely frustrating when what had worked is jettisoned for something that, for the moment, anyway, is inaccessible.  Nothing is so constant as change.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 


Ervin, Glenn
 

The trouble is though that we may see a lot of folks settle for less control over their Internet experiences , choosing to use voice controlled devices over the complexity of page elements that are emerging.

With devices getting smaller, we are seeing a shift from desktop computer-based systems in favor of more portable technology.

Although keyboards are used with this portable age, it makes me wonder of the future of Windows in a non-portable situation, like in home computers.

We, where I work,  are still using Windows in the office, and our business people rely on Windows and desktop computers for the business management aspect, but most field staff are using IOS for most of their work.

And maybe the IOS and Android  and Windows phone-based OS is where everything is going, and it seems like those environments, at least IOS, suffers less difficulty with web content and accessibility.  But that will bring a whole new set of accessibility considerations.

For me, I use a lot of IOS gestures for the touch screen, and a quick review gets me back into the IOS keyboard commands, but it is not my preferred method of accessing the web.

But I am more old-school in that regard, and maybe most of the next generation will be more comfortable doing everything on platforms like IOS/Android than I am and those older than I.

 

Glenn

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 10:27 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Accessibility in the web world is, and always has been, a game of catch-up.  That is going to get worse, at least in cycles, rather than better.

That is not indicative of the long-term arc, which is unquestionably toward better accessibility.

I'm not denying that when periods of rapid change in web coding appear, there are corresponding periods of accessibility woes.  These days, though, those tend to resolve in favor of accessibility, which was not necessarily the case for decades.

If one goes in knowing this, and accepting it as a simple fact, one can avoid a lot of "gloom and doom" thinking, if not frustration.  It's supremely frustrating when what had worked is jettisoned for something that, for the moment, anyway, is inaccessible.  Nothing is so constant as change.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 


Gene
 

Without specifics, your statements can't be discussed accept in general support or rebuttal.  I will discuss what I've observed. 
 
Sites are changing, with lots of links being replaced by menus that you use buttons to open and then you see the links in the menus.  This is an unfortunate consequence of mobile devices and the demand they put on web designers to make the most use of the screen for just what is necessary to be shown.  it's annoying and it means you can't just use the find command as you used to nor the links list, which is a completely artificial environment anyway.  Is that one reason people you work with are now having so much trouble, because their completely artificial environment doesn't allow them to see and understand how menus are being incorporated into web sites?  Just one more reason I vehemently oppose the links list.  It is a completely artificial environment that discourages people from working with and understanding the real site design or seeing how it may change over time.
 
But there is a difference between accessibility and convenience.  Without specifics, I can not discuss what you may have in mind.  Convenience has declined.  Accessibility hasn't.  Indeed, with the replacement of Flash by HTML5 accessibility in terms of audio on web sites has taken a major step forward.
 
So if you want to present a case that can be argued, specifics are necessary.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

I do a lot on-line, and I have certainly encountered more problems that only a very seasoned user can get through, and some sites that cannot be gotten through without multiple screenreaders, if at all.

That is merit enough to prove my point.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:45 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 10:22 AM, Ervin, Glenn wrote:

I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.

I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.

I hope I’m wrong about the trend.

And I see just the opposite.  Accessibility, overall, has done nothing but get better and better in the decades I've been around that issue and we now have every major commercial operating system maker building-in screen reader technology.

Teaching at the college level (and, possibly, even earlier) related to web design discusses accessibility as a design principle, which it certainly didn't when I earned my computer science degree.

The idea that accessibility is getting worse has no merit.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 


 

I agree, my grandpa later in life started with win98, and later xp.

Even though the system got secured eventually by me, he never learned to type fast, and always clicked on things meaning I had to do many reformats and other things to get things working.

In fact, It got so that I was reformatting daily simply because he would turn the unit off in the middle of an update or something.

In the end though, he got called up by someone saying that he had gotten into her computer, it was just after the yahoo breach so I double checked everything, and nothing.

They seemed to want him to pay for  dammages.

He said he hung up the phone but who knows if he did or not.

I assume it was a scam, but it worked.

He threw away his computer, canceled his net connection, throw his cellphone in the bin, and stopped doing much of everything till last year when he died.

Who knows what it was about.

Even before that, what would take me 10 minutes would take him most of the day to do.

Back then a tablet would have been darn usefull.

As it was he was used to writing and using the phone.

And that totally stopped when the local isp switched him over to wireless phone services.

If he had started earlier on maybe.

He never typed with more than 1 finger yet he was really good with an old typewriter from the 60s.

The only reason he got online was because his sports team sent him mails.

He got hacked several times but for ages I didn't see any reason about securing him.

His computer only contained sports information, he never used it otherwise plus by then he was using ancient windows and I had nothing to secure it with.

Plus any message saying he had a problem would just get him turning the system off or reformatting again so if he got a virus, he would probably just buy another computer or something and say it was broken.

When the printer ran out of ink he  threw it away because it was broken.

For those that are older and not used to the systems we use, I would go simple, android or apple maybe but never windows.

Windows as an os is really good.

But its really bad to run because of all the security issues, potential spying issues, and all sorts of things to opperate it.

Of course if you start early enough like I have done thats fine.

But he started to late and I personally think he would have been better without a computer.

With everything turning towards online for my generation its ok and for those fater me the same.

For the one just before like my dad they still have a lot of issues using things.

And the one before never had a system of their own so whow could they ever use it right anyway.

For those born into it its the other way, they don't write or hold a pen right, eventually skills are gained or lost depending where you are.

For the newer generations the tablet is the age.

For me its still the keyboard.

I started with a keyboard, I will feel better using one.

I know its in my power to use touch because a lot of my friends use it and prosper but it will take a lot for me to actually get into that.


I no longer have

On 9/28/2018 2:59 AM, Ervin, Glenn wrote:
I do a lot on-line, and I have certainly encountered more problems that only a very seasoned user can get through, and some sites that cannot be gotten through without multiple screenreaders, if at all.
That is merit enough to prove my point.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:45 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 10:22 AM, Ervin, Glenn wrote:

I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.

I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.

I hope I’m wrong about the trend.
And I see just the opposite. Accessibility, overall, has done nothing but get better and better in the decades I've been around that issue and we now have every major commercial operating system maker building-in screen reader technology.

Teaching at the college level (and, possibly, even earlier) related to web design discusses accessibility as a design principle, which it certainly didn't when I earned my computer science degree.

The idea that accessibility is getting worse has no merit.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134

The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another. Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

~ Bertrand Russell







 

Who knows.

People like simpler things, as long as it works its fine.

I don't care for the skills we have lost though and how rigid our os in some cases has become.

Sure if it works, fine but if it breaks what is broken and how to fix it are 2 blocks I hit every day.

In dos if it broke there were 10 reasons they could.

Fixes could be just to replace the startup files to a mangled config file or a program.

In windows, it usually is fine.

If a driver or interface breaks you probably can fix it.

But if anything else breaks even if you knew what broke to fix it, is more complex than well reformatting.

When windows breaks now I just reformat.

It makes the problem go away.

At first I tried to fix the issue but 9 times out 10 for me, I don't know what broke, and even if I knew its something I have never heard of or something else one doesn't need to interact with.

I know we put up with a lot of things breaking but so much stuff is dependant on our gear that if it breaks we panic till its fixed.

If my system breaks I am lost without a computer till I reformat and make the problem go away for a time.

In theory an os that is simple and just works may be the future.

Voice controls etc will be the thing.

It will restrict us but then on the other hand if you have used one touch screen or voice system then you used them all.

In startrek the borg were portrayed as bad, yet I recon we will be half way there.

Maybe in a hundred years if the borg were to show up we would concidder it an upgrade probably whould have done it ourselves by then.

On 9/28/2018 3:43 AM, Ervin, Glenn wrote:
The trouble is though that we may see a lot of folks settle for less control over their Internet experiences , choosing to use voice controlled devices over the complexity of page elements that are emerging.
With devices getting smaller, we are seeing a shift from desktop computer-based systems in favor of more portable technology.
Although keyboards are used with this portable age, it makes me wonder of the future of Windows in a non-portable situation, like in home computers.
We, where I work, are still using Windows in the office, and our business people rely on Windows and desktop computers for the business management aspect, but most field staff are using IOS for most of their work.
And maybe the IOS and Android and Windows phone-based OS is where everything is going, and it seems like those environments, at least IOS, suffers less difficulty with web content and accessibility. But that will bring a whole new set of accessibility considerations.
For me, I use a lot of IOS gestures for the touch screen, and a quick review gets me back into the IOS keyboard commands, but it is not my preferred method of accessing the web.
But I am more old-school in that regard, and maybe most of the next generation will be more comfortable doing everything on platforms like IOS/Android than I am and those older than I.

Glenn
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 10:27 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Accessibility in the web world is, and always has been, a game of catch-up. That is going to get worse, at least in cycles, rather than better.

That is not indicative of the long-term arc, which is unquestionably toward better accessibility.

I'm not denying that when periods of rapid change in web coding appear, there are corresponding periods of accessibility woes. These days, though, those tend to resolve in favor of accessibility, which was not necessarily the case for decades.

If one goes in knowing this, and accepting it as a simple fact, one can avoid a lot of "gloom and doom" thinking, if not frustration. It's supremely frustrating when what had worked is jettisoned for something that, for the moment, anyway, is inaccessible. Nothing is so constant as change.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134

The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another. Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

~ Bertrand Russell