Mystery surrounding computer


marvin kotler
 

Good morning list; Marv here.  Someone asked me a question regarding an external keyboard.  When I plugged one into the laptop, the alt keys worked.  Do not know what to try next on the laptops keyboard.  The computer is an hp pavilion g6 notebook pc.  Anymore advice would be appreciated.  As stated previously, the alt keys on the laptops keyboard do not work properly.
 


Jacob Kruger
 

Chances are then that it's a hardware, or BIOS setting issue with the laptop's own physical keyboard - not sure what BIOS settings could be relevant, but, you might need to get a sighted tech to check that out for you.


And, FWIW, the reason I mentioned the physical keyboard in the first place is that, with all my laptops, I still just use external USB keyboards, since trying to work with a more compact, lapto keyboard, with, or without a numeric keypad would slow me down too much...<smile>


Stay well


Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile, but, acceptance is versatile..."
On 2016-09-18 3:33 PM, marvin kotler wrote:

Good morning list; Marv here.  Someone asked me a question regarding an external keyboard.  When I plugged one into the laptop, the alt keys worked.  Do not know what to try next on the laptops keyboard.  The computer is an hp pavilion g6 notebook pc.  Anymore advice would be appreciated.  As stated previously, the alt keys on the laptops keyboard do not work properly.
 


Chris
 

You not got another key stuck down by any chance ?

Give your keyboard a good scrub and polish its a long shot but it may work

 

Good luck

 

 

 

 

From: marvin kotler
Sent: 18 September 2016 14:33
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Mystery surrounding computer

 

Good morning list; Marv here.  Someone asked me a question regarding an external keyboard.  When I plugged one into the laptop, the alt keys worked.  Do not know what to try next on the laptops keyboard.  The computer is an hp pavilion g6 notebook pc.  Anymore advice would be appreciated.  As stated previously, the alt keys on the laptops keyboard do not work properly.

 

 


 

Jacob's assessment is spot-on and would be my first avenue of investigation.

Marv, if I may ask a kindness from you, please stop splitting threads.  This all should have remained under the original "Question regarding computer" thread.  Every time a subject is changed a new thread is created and it becomes impossible for those of us who use the web interface to follow a single problem/issue/question/discussion from its start to its finish because it is fragmented.   A change of subject should occur if and only if a tangent occurs that would warrant one, and those don't occur often.  Clarifications should be answered on the thread on which they were requested.  This is but one example of where keeping related information together is important.
--
Brian

I worry a lot. . . I worry that no matter how cynical you become it's never enough to keep up.

         ~ Trudy, in Jane Wagner's "Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe"

    



Gene
 

this is evidently a new computer.  it's very unlikely.  In addition, incorrect cleaning of a laptop keyboard my void the warranty or in some way make the machine not possible to return.  I either wouldn't do any such thing or I would be very careful in what I decided to do.  And if another key were stuck down, you would expect far more problems than just the alt keys not working.  

From: Chris
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2016 10:32 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mystery surrounding computer

You not got another key stuck down by any chance ?

Give your keyboard a good scrub and polish its a long shot but it may work

 

Good luck

 

 

 

 

From: marvin kotler
Sent: 18 September 2016 14:33
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Mystery surrounding computer

 

Good morning list; Marv here.  Someone asked me a question regarding an external keyboard.  When I plugged one into the laptop, the alt keys worked.  Do not know what to try next on the laptops keyboard.  The computer is an hp pavilion g6 notebook pc.  Anymore advice would be appreciated.  As stated previously, the alt keys on the laptops keyboard do not work properly.

 

 


Chris
 

Hey stay cool I wasnt being literal

 

 

 

 

 

From: Gene
Sent: 18 September 2016 16:56
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mystery surrounding computer

 

this is evidently a new computer.  it's very unlikely.  In addition, incorrect cleaning of a laptop keyboard my void the warranty or in some way make the machine not possible to return.  I either wouldn't do any such thing or I would be very careful in what I decided to do.  And if another key were stuck down, you would expect far more problems than just the alt keys not working.  

 

From: Chris

Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2016 10:32 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Mystery surrounding computer

 

You not got another key stuck down by any chance ?

Give your keyboard a good scrub and polish its a long shot but it may work

 

Good luck

 

 

 

 

From: marvin kotler
Sent: 18 September 2016 14:33
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Mystery surrounding computer

 

Good morning list; Marv here.  Someone asked me a question regarding an external keyboard.  When I plugged one into the laptop, the alt keys worked.  Do not know what to try next on the laptops keyboard.  The computer is an hp pavilion g6 notebook pc.  Anymore advice would be appreciated.  As stated previously, the alt keys on the laptops keyboard do not work properly.

 

 

 


Chris Mullins
 

Have you tried:

 

Checking device manager to see if (A) the machine thinks the keyboard is working properly and (B) there are no updates available for the keybord driver.

 

In addition, have you switched on the “speak command keys” (NVDA+4 to see what is voiced when using alt+? Type keypresses.

 

Cheers

Chris

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of marvin kotler
Sent: 18 September 2016 14:33
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Mystery surrounding computer

 

Good morning list; Marv here.  Someone asked me a question regarding an external keyboard.  When I plugged one into the laptop, the alt keys worked.  Do not know what to try next on the laptops keyboard.  The computer is an hp pavilion g6 notebook pc.  Anymore advice would be appreciated.  As stated previously, the alt keys on the laptops keyboard do not work properly.

 


Brian's Mail list account BY <bglists@...>
 

Well, chalk another one up to non standard keyboard systems then. It may well be part of the driver being used for the internal keyboard. Only HP would know this
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "marvin kotler" <m.kotler53@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2016 2:33 PM
Subject: [nvda] Mystery surrounding computer


Good morning list; Marv here. Someone asked me a question regarding an external keyboard. When I plugged one into the laptop, the alt keys worked. Do not know what to try next on the laptops keyboard. The computer is an hp pavilion g6 notebook pc. Anymore advice would be appreciated. As stated previously, the alt keys on the laptops keyboard do not work properly.


Brian's Mail list account BY <bglists@...>
 

It does affect us reading via email as well, as if you reply to a question with a similar name it goes to that thread and not the old one at all, which is not always obvious to people until they collapse the tree down then its um, which one is it time.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2016 4:34 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mystery surrounding computer


Jacob's assessment is spot-on and would be my first avenue of investigation.

Marv, if I may ask a kindness from you, please stop splitting threads. This all should have remained under the original "Question regarding computer" thread. Every time a subject is changed a new thread is created and it becomes impossible for those of us who use the web interface to follow a single problem/issue/question/discussion from its start to its finish because it is fragmented. A change of subject should occur if and only if a tangent occurs that would warrant one, and those don't occur often. Clarifications should be answered on the thread on which they were requested. This is but one example of where keeping related information together is important.
--
Brian

I worry a lot. . . I worry that no matter how cynical you become it's never enough to keep up.
~ Trudy, in Jane Wagner's "Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe"


Chris Mullins
 

When I bought my HP N630 laptop, the built-in keyboard was set up in in some
sort of multi-media mode whereby the function keys operated as media keys
rather than F keys. To operate f keys as F keys, i had to hold down the fn
key. I had to get sighted help to change a bios setting which reversed this
behaviour and it's been fine ever since. I first noticed the behaviour when
I tried alt+f4 to exit a program and something else happened. Could your
problem be something similar?

Cheers
Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account
Sent: 19 September 2016 10:53
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mystery surrounding computer

Well, chalk another one up to non standard keyboard systems then. It may
well be part of the driver being used for the internal keyboard. Only HP
would know this Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
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----- Original Message -----
From: "marvin kotler" <m.kotler53@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2016 2:33 PM
Subject: [nvda] Mystery surrounding computer


Good morning list; Marv here. Someone asked me a question regarding an
external keyboard. When I plugged one into the laptop, the alt keys worked.

Do not know what to try next on the laptops keyboard. The computer is an hp

pavilion g6 notebook pc. Anymore advice would be appreciated. As stated
previously, the alt keys on the laptops keyboard do not work properly.


Brian's Mail list account BY <bglists@...>
 

Well, nvda used to have a rare bug that started it thinking control was pressed or windows was pressed all the time. That issue has gone now as far as I can tell.


I still feel that just maybe some keys are dual use on the internal keyboard or certain shift configurations are on by default to creat this effect for some reason. Most laptops have at least one key that is for function, and it may well be that this in combination with another key will turn the feature off.
Brian

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Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris" <chrismedley@btinternet.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2016 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mystery surrounding computer


Hey stay cool I wasnt being literal





From: Gene


Chris Mullins
 

Instructions for altering bios for keyboard settings on HP laptops is here:

http://www.support.hp.com/us-en/document/c02035108/

Cheers
Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account
Sent: 19 September 2016 11:09
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mystery surrounding computer

Well, nvda used to have a rare bug that started it thinking control was pressed or windows was pressed all the time. That issue has gone now as far as I can tell.


I still feel that just maybe some keys are dual use on the internal keyboard or certain shift configurations are on by default to creat this effect for some reason. Most laptops have at least one key that is for function, and it may well be that this in combination with another key will turn the feature off.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris" <chrismedley@btinternet.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2016 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mystery surrounding computer


Hey stay cool I wasnt being literal





From: Gene


 

Chris,

           That's a great set of instructions, but it predates UEFI.  For those who have a machine with UEFI there will be a couple of steps to get to the BIOS function under UEFI.

           I still don't know of any screen reader that operates this early in the boot sequence, no matter if we're talking a native BIOS machine or a newer one with UEFI.  My HP laptop had the keys set for multimedia mode, but the machine is UEFI based and that function is called SmartKeys on this model.  Now that I've turned off the SmartKeys (ActionKeys in your posted example) I'm back to having to hit the Fn key plus the actual function key to invoke the media function, which is just how I like it.
--
Brian

I worry a lot. . . I worry that no matter how cynical you become it's never enough to keep up.

         ~ Trudy, in Jane Wagner's "Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe"

    



Chris Mullins
 

I’ve had a quick look on the net and there are a couple of ways described for getting into the bios on the UEFI machine but the principle of reverting to a standard keyboard function then using the fn key to invoke smart mode remains the same.  I too know of no screen reader that can operate at the bios level and I think it unlikely there could be, so sighted assistance would be required to make the changes.     

 

Cheers

Chris

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 19 September 2016 17:14
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mystery surrounding computer

 

Chris,

           That's a great set of instructions, but it predates UEFI.  For those who have a machine with UEFI there will be a couple of steps to get to the BIOS function under UEFI.

           I still don't know of any screen reader that operates this early in the boot sequence, no matter if we're talking a native BIOS machine or a newer one with UEFI.  My HP laptop had the keys set for multimedia mode, but the machine is UEFI based and that function is called SmartKeys on this model.  Now that I've turned off the SmartKeys (ActionKeys in your posted example) I'm back to having to hit the Fn key plus the actual function key to invoke the media function, which is just how I like it.
--
Brian

I worry a lot. . . I worry that no matter how cynical you become it's never enough to keep up.

         ~ Trudy, in Jane Wagner's "Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe"

    

 


Rui Fontes
 

The new Toshiba laptops have a more or less accessible program to set some
BIOS settings...
You must restart the laptop to changes take effect.

Rui



-----Mensagem Original-----
De: Chris Mullins
Data: 19 de setembro de 2016 21:26
Para: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Assunto: Re: [nvda] Mystery surrounding computer



I've had a quick look on the net and there are a couple of ways described
for getting into the bios on the UEFI machine but the principle of reverting
to a standard keyboard function then using the fn key to invoke smart mode
remains the same. I too know of no screen reader that can operate at the
bios level and I think it unlikely there could be, so sighted assistance
would be required to make the changes.



Cheers

Chris



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian
Vogel
Sent: 19 September 2016 17:14
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mystery surrounding computer





Chris,

That's a great set of instructions, but it predates UEFI. For
those who have a machine with UEFI there will be a couple of steps to get to
the BIOS function under UEFI.

I still don't know of any screen reader that operates this early
in the boot sequence, no matter if we're talking a native BIOS machine or a
newer one with UEFI. My HP laptop had the keys set for multimedia mode, but
the machine is UEFI based and that function is called SmartKeys on this
model. Now that I've turned off the SmartKeys (ActionKeys in your posted
example) I'm back to having to hit the Fn key plus the actual function key
to invoke the media function, which is just how I like it.
--
Brian

I worry a lot. . . I worry that no matter how cynical you become it's never
enough to keep up.



~ Trudy, in Jane Wagner's "Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in
the Universe"


Chris Mullins
 

That sounds like a sensible idea. On the computer, have an app to maintain
something like a Bios.Ini file which refreshes the bios when you restart the
machine. No doubt there are many security implications but it could
possibly use existing screen reader technology to make it accessible.

Cheers
Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Rui
Fontes
Sent: 20 September 2016 00:27
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mystery surrounding computer

The new Toshiba laptops have a more or less accessible program to set some
BIOS settings...
You must restart the laptop to changes take effect.

Rui



-----Mensagem Original-----
De: Chris Mullins
Data: 19 de setembro de 2016 21:26
Para: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Assunto: Re: [nvda] Mystery surrounding computer



I've had a quick look on the net and there are a couple of ways described
for getting into the bios on the UEFI machine but the principle of reverting

to a standard keyboard function then using the fn key to invoke smart mode
remains the same. I too know of no screen reader that can operate at the
bios level and I think it unlikely there could be, so sighted assistance
would be required to make the changes.



Cheers

Chris



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian
Vogel
Sent: 19 September 2016 17:14
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mystery surrounding computer





Chris,

That's a great set of instructions, but it predates UEFI. For
those who have a machine with UEFI there will be a couple of steps to get to

the BIOS function under UEFI.

I still don't know of any screen reader that operates this early
in the boot sequence, no matter if we're talking a native BIOS machine or a
newer one with UEFI. My HP laptop had the keys set for multimedia mode, but

the machine is UEFI based and that function is called SmartKeys on this
model. Now that I've turned off the SmartKeys (ActionKeys in your posted
example) I'm back to having to hit the Fn key plus the actual function key
to invoke the media function, which is just how I like it.
--
Brian

I worry a lot. . . I worry that no matter how cynical you become it's never
enough to keep up.



~ Trudy, in Jane Wagner's "Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in
the Universe"


 

All toshibas from dos 5.0 to the present time have accessible software, most of their bloat is functional to.
They are stable and were at my school origionally and they are fully blind compatible.
So yeah I sort of like toshiba for what they are.

On 20/09/2016 11:27 a.m., Rui Fontes wrote:
The new Toshiba laptops have a more or less accessible program to set some
BIOS settings...
You must restart the laptop to changes take effect.

Rui



-----Mensagem Original-----
De: Chris Mullins
Data: 19 de setembro de 2016 21:26
Para: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Assunto: Re: [nvda] Mystery surrounding computer



I've had a quick look on the net and there are a couple of ways described
for getting into the bios on the UEFI machine but the principle of reverting
to a standard keyboard function then using the fn key to invoke smart mode
remains the same. I too know of no screen reader that can operate at the
bios level and I think it unlikely there could be, so sighted assistance
would be required to make the changes.



Cheers

Chris



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian
Vogel
Sent: 19 September 2016 17:14
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mystery surrounding computer





Chris,

That's a great set of instructions, but it predates UEFI. For
those who have a machine with UEFI there will be a couple of steps to get to
the BIOS function under UEFI.

I still don't know of any screen reader that operates this early
in the boot sequence, no matter if we're talking a native BIOS machine or a
newer one with UEFI. My HP laptop had the keys set for multimedia mode, but
the machine is UEFI based and that function is called SmartKeys on this
model. Now that I've turned off the SmartKeys (ActionKeys in your posted
example) I'm back to having to hit the Fn key plus the actual function key
to invoke the media function, which is just how I like it.


Brian's Mail list account BY <bglists@...>
 

One would have thought they might have put this on a key combination somewhere as we cannot be the only ones who require normal operation. what about other software that uses control keys employing alt?
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 5:13 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mystery surrounding computer


Chris,

That's a great set of instructions, but it predates UEFI. For those who have a machine with UEFI there will be a couple of steps to get to the BIOS function under UEFI.

I still don't know of any screen reader that operates this early in the boot sequence, no matter if we're talking a native BIOS machine or a newer one with UEFI. My HP laptop had the keys set for multimedia mode, but the machine is UEFI based and that function is called SmartKeys on this model. Now that I've turned off the SmartKeys (ActionKeys in your posted example) I'm back to having to hit the Fn key plus the actual function key to invoke the media function, which is just how I like it.
--
Brian

I worry a lot. . . I worry that no matter how cynical you become it's never enough to keep up.
~ Trudy, in Jane Wagner's "Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe"


Brian's Mail list account BY <bglists@...>
 

Its a pity nobody makes bios update software that can do this via a dummy file on screen, then load in the changes at a restart. After all one can find bios updates for many computers and this seems to be how they all work.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Mullins" <cjmullins29@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 9:26 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mystery surrounding computer


I’ve had a quick look on the net and there are a couple of ways described for getting into the bios on the UEFI machine but the principle of reverting to a standard keyboard function then using the fn key to invoke smart mode remains the same. I too know of no screen reader that can operate at the bios level and I think it unlikely there could be, so sighted assistance would be required to make the changes.



Cheers

Chris

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 19 September 2016 17:14
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mystery surrounding computer



Chris,

That's a great set of instructions, but it predates UEFI. For those who have a machine with UEFI there will be a couple of steps to get to the BIOS function under UEFI.

I still don't know of any screen reader that operates this early in the boot sequence, no matter if we're talking a native BIOS machine or a newer one with UEFI. My HP laptop had the keys set for multimedia mode, but the machine is UEFI based and that function is called SmartKeys on this model. Now that I've turned off the SmartKeys (ActionKeys in your posted example) I'm back to having to hit the Fn key plus the actual function key to invoke the media function, which is just how I like it.
--
Brian

I worry a lot. . . I worry that no matter how cynical you become it's never enough to keep up.

~ Trudy, in Jane Wagner's "Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe"


Brian's Mail list account BY <bglists@...>
 

Its not a new idea, way back in the days of 8 bit home computers, many of the settings could be changed in exactly this way, also saving a back up copy of the original settings if you screwed it all up.
It always seemed to me that pcs were well behind on this aspect but as has been said I suppose security hacking could be a problem.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Mullins" <cjmullins29@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 12:55 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mystery surrounding computer


That sounds like a sensible idea. On the computer, have an app to maintain
something like a Bios.Ini file which refreshes the bios when you restart the
machine. No doubt there are many security implications but it could
possibly use existing screen reader technology to make it accessible.

Cheers
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Rui
Fontes
Sent: 20 September 2016 00:27
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mystery surrounding computer

The new Toshiba laptops have a more or less accessible program to set some
BIOS settings...
You must restart the laptop to changes take effect.

Rui



-----Mensagem Original-----
De: Chris Mullins
Data: 19 de setembro de 2016 21:26
Para: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Assunto: Re: [nvda] Mystery surrounding computer



I've had a quick look on the net and there are a couple of ways described
for getting into the bios on the UEFI machine but the principle of reverting

to a standard keyboard function then using the fn key to invoke smart mode
remains the same. I too know of no screen reader that can operate at the
bios level and I think it unlikely there could be, so sighted assistance
would be required to make the changes.



Cheers

Chris



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian
Vogel
Sent: 19 September 2016 17:14
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mystery surrounding computer





Chris,

That's a great set of instructions, but it predates UEFI. For
those who have a machine with UEFI there will be a couple of steps to get to

the BIOS function under UEFI.

I still don't know of any screen reader that operates this early
in the boot sequence, no matter if we're talking a native BIOS machine or a
newer one with UEFI. My HP laptop had the keys set for multimedia mode, but

the machine is UEFI based and that function is called SmartKeys on this
model. Now that I've turned off the SmartKeys (ActionKeys in your posted
example) I'm back to having to hit the Fn key plus the actual function key
to invoke the media function, which is just how I like it.
--
Brian

I worry a lot. . . I worry that no matter how cynical you become it's never
enough to keep up.



~ Trudy, in Jane Wagner's "Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in
the Universe"