In-Process for 26th October


Quentin Christensen
 

Hi everyone,

This week's In-Process is out. Today, we have more information about the recently released NVDA 2018.3.2, a shout out to GlitchedVision for his innovative fundraiser, and not one but two quick tutorials - on Configuration Profiles, & Predictive Text in Windows 10. Enjoy!


Regards

Quentin.
--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Adriani Botez
 

Hey Quentin,

 

I am replying to this e-mail after reading the last in-process.

 

For me at least, saying “clickable” does not help in deducting if I have to do it or not. In fact, most times “clickable” does not perform an action at all when pressing enter on it.

 

Regarding profiles, i am using profiles for MS Excel, MS Word, MS Outlook and Firefox. At work I am using profiles for SAP web based services because they have thousants of tables which in fact are only layout tables but NVDA recognize them as normal tables. So I have to use profiles to disable tables because otherwise I get crazy when navigating through the complex pages.

 

Windows 10 predictible text is a new function to me, but I find it more useful for tablests and smartfones. I don’t use it on normal keyboards. But I guess it is a very good feature for people with motoric disabilities.

 

 

Best

Adriani

 

 

Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Quentin Christensen
Gesendet: Freitag, 26. Oktober 2018 08:20
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October

 

Hi everyone,

 

This week's In-Process is out. Today, we have more information about the recently released NVDA 2018.3.2, a shout out to GlitchedVision for his innovative fundraiser, and not one but two quick tutorials - on Configuration Profiles, & Predictive Text in Windows 10. Enjoy!

 

 

Regards

 

Quentin.

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

 

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Its better than saying nothing. Sometimes in the shark these are also ambiguous, one suspects because the info exposed on what they do is incomplete and so one has to just indicate they are there to supposedly do something. I often wonder at the logic of page design when nobody knows quite what they will get when they use a control.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Adriani Botez" <adriani.botez@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2018 10:57 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October


Hey Quentin,



I am replying to this e-mail after reading the last in-process.



For me at least, saying “clickable” does not help in deducting if I have to do it or not. In fact, most times “clickable” does not perform an action at all when pressing enter on it.



Regarding profiles, i am using profiles for MS Excel, MS Word, MS Outlook and Firefox. At work I am using profiles for SAP web based services because they have thousants of tables which in fact are only layout tables but NVDA recognize them as normal tables. So I have to use profiles to disable tables because otherwise I get crazy when navigating through the complex pages.



Windows 10 predictible text is a new function to me, but I find it more useful for tablests and smartfones. I don’t use it on normal keyboards. But I guess it is a very good feature for people with motoric disabilities.





Best

Adriani





Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Quentin Christensen
Gesendet: Freitag, 26. Oktober 2018 08:20
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October



Hi everyone,



This week's In-Process is out. Today, we have more information about the recently released NVDA 2018.3.2, a shout out to GlitchedVision for his innovative fundraiser, and not one but two quick tutorials - on Configuration Profiles, & Predictive Text in Windows 10. Enjoy!



https://www.nvaccess.org/post/in-process-26th-october-2018/



Regards



Quentin.

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager



Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: <http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/



<http://www.nvaccess.org/> www.nvaccess.org

Facebook: <http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess> http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess


Quentin Christensen
 

Re clickable, the comments from everyone seem divided between "it can be really useful so I leave it on" and "it's really annoying and not useful most of the time, get rid of it".  I think it perhaps also depends on the sites you visit and how readily you turn out of superfluous information being read.  A very good example of that people are much more likely to complain about what doesn't work than praise what does - I think all the feedback we had received on clickable previously had been about how annoying it was and that it read clickable when it really wasn't helpful.

Re predictive text Adriani, I must admit I hadn't used it myself until someone asked last week and I tried it out.  I think if you are proficient with a physical keyboard, it's probably not so useful for an average user on PC where you are most likely already typing on a physical keyboard.  But it could definitely be a lifesaver for some users so it's good that it's there.


On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 5:50 PM Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
Its better than saying nothing. Sometimes in the shark these are also
ambiguous, one suspects because the info exposed on what they do is
incomplete and so one has to just indicate they are there to supposedly do
something. I often wonder at the logic of page design when nobody knows
quite what they will get when they use a control.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adriani Botez" <adriani.botez@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2018 10:57 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October


Hey Quentin,



I am replying to this e-mail after reading the last in-process.



For me at least, saying “clickable” does not help in deducting if I have to
do it or not. In fact, most times “clickable” does not perform an action at
all when pressing enter on it.



Regarding profiles, i am using profiles for MS Excel, MS Word, MS Outlook
and Firefox. At work I am using profiles for SAP web based services because
they have thousants of tables which in fact are only layout tables but NVDA
recognize them as normal tables. So I have to use profiles to disable tables
because otherwise I get crazy when navigating through the complex pages.



Windows 10 predictible text is a new function to me, but I find it more
useful for tablests and smartfones. I don’t use it on normal keyboards. But
I guess it is a very good feature for people with motoric disabilities.





Best

Adriani





Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Quentin
Christensen
Gesendet: Freitag, 26. Oktober 2018 08:20
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October



Hi everyone,



This week's In-Process is out. Today, we have more information about the
recently released NVDA 2018.3.2, a shout out to GlitchedVision for his
innovative fundraiser, and not one but two quick tutorials - on
Configuration Profiles, & Predictive Text in Windows 10. Enjoy!



https://www.nvaccess.org/post/in-process-26th-october-2018/



Regards



Quentin.

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager



Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
<http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/



 <http://www.nvaccess.org/> www.nvaccess.org

Facebook:  <http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess>
http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess












--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Mary Otten
 

Remember, your request was only four people to reply with positive. How is it used for? I for instance don’t like it and find it worthless. But I did not respond, because you were looking for positive responses. So the fact that you got 50-50 tells me that there are a lot more who don’t like it then those who do. Those of us who respected your request are screwed. Get rid of it! Or at least make it possible for those of us who have not found it helpful to shut it off.

Mary


On Oct 28, 2018, at 6:54 PM, Quentin Christensen <quentin@...> wrote:

Re clickable, the comments from everyone seem divided between "it can be really useful so I leave it on" and "it's really annoying and not useful most of the time, get rid of it".  I think it perhaps also depends on the sites you visit and how readily you turn out of superfluous information being read.  A very good example of that people are much more likely to complain about what doesn't work than praise what does - I think all the feedback we had received on clickable previously had been about how annoying it was and that it read clickable when it really wasn't helpful.

Re predictive text Adriani, I must admit I hadn't used it myself until someone asked last week and I tried it out.  I think if you are proficient with a physical keyboard, it's probably not so useful for an average user on PC where you are most likely already typing on a physical keyboard.  But it could definitely be a lifesaver for some users so it's good that it's there.


On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 5:50 PM Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
Its better than saying nothing. Sometimes in the shark these are also
ambiguous, one suspects because the info exposed on what they do is
incomplete and so one has to just indicate they are there to supposedly do
something. I often wonder at the logic of page design when nobody knows
quite what they will get when they use a control.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adriani Botez" <adriani.botez@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2018 10:57 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October


Hey Quentin,



I am replying to this e-mail after reading the last in-process.



For me at least, saying “clickable” does not help in deducting if I have to
do it or not. In fact, most times “clickable” does not perform an action at
all when pressing enter on it.



Regarding profiles, i am using profiles for MS Excel, MS Word, MS Outlook
and Firefox. At work I am using profiles for SAP web based services because
they have thousants of tables which in fact are only layout tables but NVDA
recognize them as normal tables. So I have to use profiles to disable tables
because otherwise I get crazy when navigating through the complex pages.



Windows 10 predictible text is a new function to me, but I find it more
useful for tablests and smartfones. I don’t use it on normal keyboards. But
I guess it is a very good feature for people with motoric disabilities.





Best

Adriani





Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Quentin
Christensen
Gesendet: Freitag, 26. Oktober 2018 08:20
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October



Hi everyone,



This week's In-Process is out. Today, we have more information about the
recently released NVDA 2018.3.2, a shout out to GlitchedVision for his
innovative fundraiser, and not one but two quick tutorials - on
Configuration Profiles, & Predictive Text in Windows 10. Enjoy!



https://www.nvaccess.org/post/in-process-26th-october-2018/



Regards



Quentin.

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager



Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
<http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/



 <http://www.nvaccess.org/> www.nvaccess.org

Facebook:  <http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess>
http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess












--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Quentin Christensen
 

Very true Mary!

Ok, based on the feedback it does seem that there are some users who prefer it is perhaps what I should have said, although as you said, a lot of people like yourself who don't like it didn't respond (and indeed, that is the feedback we had received plenty of beforehand).

On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 1:31 PM Mary Otten <maryotten@...> wrote:
Remember, your request was only four people to reply with positive. How is it used for? I for instance don’t like it and find it worthless. But I did not respond, because you were looking for positive responses. So the fact that you got 50-50 tells me that there are a lot more who don’t like it then those who do. Those of us who respected your request are screwed. Get rid of it! Or at least make it possible for those of us who have not found it helpful to shut it off.

Mary


On Oct 28, 2018, at 6:54 PM, Quentin Christensen <quentin@...> wrote:

Re clickable, the comments from everyone seem divided between "it can be really useful so I leave it on" and "it's really annoying and not useful most of the time, get rid of it".  I think it perhaps also depends on the sites you visit and how readily you turn out of superfluous information being read.  A very good example of that people are much more likely to complain about what doesn't work than praise what does - I think all the feedback we had received on clickable previously had been about how annoying it was and that it read clickable when it really wasn't helpful.

Re predictive text Adriani, I must admit I hadn't used it myself until someone asked last week and I tried it out.  I think if you are proficient with a physical keyboard, it's probably not so useful for an average user on PC where you are most likely already typing on a physical keyboard.  But it could definitely be a lifesaver for some users so it's good that it's there.


On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 5:50 PM Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
Its better than saying nothing. Sometimes in the shark these are also
ambiguous, one suspects because the info exposed on what they do is
incomplete and so one has to just indicate they are there to supposedly do
something. I often wonder at the logic of page design when nobody knows
quite what they will get when they use a control.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adriani Botez" <adriani.botez@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2018 10:57 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October


Hey Quentin,



I am replying to this e-mail after reading the last in-process.



For me at least, saying “clickable” does not help in deducting if I have to
do it or not. In fact, most times “clickable” does not perform an action at
all when pressing enter on it.



Regarding profiles, i am using profiles for MS Excel, MS Word, MS Outlook
and Firefox. At work I am using profiles for SAP web based services because
they have thousants of tables which in fact are only layout tables but NVDA
recognize them as normal tables. So I have to use profiles to disable tables
because otherwise I get crazy when navigating through the complex pages.



Windows 10 predictible text is a new function to me, but I find it more
useful for tablests and smartfones. I don’t use it on normal keyboards. But
I guess it is a very good feature for people with motoric disabilities.





Best

Adriani





Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Quentin
Christensen
Gesendet: Freitag, 26. Oktober 2018 08:20
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October



Hi everyone,



This week's In-Process is out. Today, we have more information about the
recently released NVDA 2018.3.2, a shout out to GlitchedVision for his
innovative fundraiser, and not one but two quick tutorials - on
Configuration Profiles, & Predictive Text in Windows 10. Enjoy!



https://www.nvaccess.org/post/in-process-26th-october-2018/



Regards



Quentin.

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager



Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
<http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/



 <http://www.nvaccess.org/> www.nvaccess.org

Facebook:  <http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess>
http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess












--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Gene
 

I don't keep up with current versions of NVDA because I don't have machines they are compatible with. In the old days, NVDA used to say clickable much too often, repeating it many times before it read the text that was supposed to be clickable.  Often, this text wasn't actually clickable.  I don't know that because I tried clicking on everything announced as such, but the context made it obvious.  Has this problem been corrected?  I would think that if it has and only clickable items are announced, this wouldn't be a problem.  But perhaps one reason you get so much negative reaction is if the problem hasn't been corrected. 
 
But why limit the inquiry to clickable items?  Why are block quotes announced by default and lists.  I don't know how others find such information being announced by default but to me, it's clutter.  What about landmarks?  I never use the landmark announcement but I don't know if they are useful.  I also wonder whether, even if they are useful, they discourage people from learning how to navigate sites without them efficiently.  My concern is that if you become too dependent on special accessibility accomodations, where a lot of sites don't have them, it may discourage many people from using sites that don't.  I started using the Internet before any of these accomodations but when discussions such as this come up, I wonder about such questions. 
 
There may be things I don't know such as that a lot of smaller sites use landmarks and use them properly but I don't know if that's the case and I suspect that a lot of sites don't use them at all.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Mary Otten
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2018 9:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October

Remember, your request was only four people to reply with positive. How is it used for? I for instance don’t like it and find it worthless. But I did not respond, because you were looking for positive responses. So the fact that you got 50-50 tells me that there are a lot more who don’t like it then those who do. Those of us who respected your request are screwed. Get rid of it! Or at least make it possible for those of us who have not found it helpful to shut it off.

Mary


On Oct 28, 2018, at 6:54 PM, Quentin Christensen <quentin@...> wrote:

Re clickable, the comments from everyone seem divided between "it can be really useful so I leave it on" and "it's really annoying and not useful most of the time, get rid of it".  I think it perhaps also depends on the sites you visit and how readily you turn out of superfluous information being read.  A very good example of that people are much more likely to complain about what doesn't work than praise what does - I think all the feedback we had received on clickable previously had been about how annoying it was and that it read clickable when it really wasn't helpful.

Re predictive text Adriani, I must admit I hadn't used it myself until someone asked last week and I tried it out.  I think if you are proficient with a physical keyboard, it's probably not so useful for an average user on PC where you are most likely already typing on a physical keyboard.  But it could definitely be a lifesaver for some users so it's good that it's there.


On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 5:50 PM Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
Its better than saying nothing. Sometimes in the shark these are also
ambiguous, one suspects because the info exposed on what they do is
incomplete and so one has to just indicate they are there to supposedly do
something. I often wonder at the logic of page design when nobody knows
quite what they will get when they use a control.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adriani Botez" <adriani.botez@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2018 10:57 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October


Hey Quentin,



I am replying to this e-mail after reading the last in-process.



For me at least, saying “clickable” does not help in deducting if I have to
do it or not. In fact, most times “clickable” does not perform an action at
all when pressing enter on it.



Regarding profiles, i am using profiles for MS Excel, MS Word, MS Outlook
and Firefox. At work I am using profiles for SAP web based services because
they have thousants of tables which in fact are only layout tables but NVDA
recognize them as normal tables. So I have to use profiles to disable tables
because otherwise I get crazy when navigating through the complex pages.



Windows 10 predictible text is a new function to me, but I find it more
useful for tablests and smartfones. I don’t use it on normal keyboards. But
I guess it is a very good feature for people with motoric disabilities.





Best

Adriani





Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Quentin
Christensen
Gesendet: Freitag, 26. Oktober 2018 08:20
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October



Hi everyone,



This week's In-Process is out. Today, we have more information about the
recently released NVDA 2018.3.2, a shout out to GlitchedVision for his
innovative fundraiser, and not one but two quick tutorials - on
Configuration Profiles, & Predictive Text in Windows 10. Enjoy!



https://www.nvaccess.org/post/in-process-26th-october-2018/



Regards



Quentin.

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager



Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
<http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/



 <http://www.nvaccess.org/> www.nvaccess.org

Facebook:  <http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess>
http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess












--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Jackie
 

Well, I actually responded to the email that was provided for a
response in the request. I indicated that for me, there have been
countless times when an object was clickable, but because the web
developer in question didn't make it a link or a button, it would be
impossible to know that unless NVDA said "clickable". I did also
indicate that saying it multiple times was beyond annoying.
Additionally, I also suggested that there be a way to toggle the
feature on or off, per user preference. It's incorrect to assume that
because folks didn't respond positively on list that no one likes the
feature. I rather suspect instead that many of us simply used the
private email w/which we were provided.

If web authors would develop according to WCAG, there would be no need
for the feature. They don't; thus, there is. If you're fortunate
enough to visit only those websites that adhere to those standards,
then great. If on the other hand, you find yourself visiting a
multiplicity of sites, many of which do not conform to accessibility
guidelines, then it helps to know that an element can be interacted
with, because all indications are that it cannot.

They were looking for positive responses because they simply wanted to
see if anyone found it useful, & perhaps get an estimate of how many
that might be. They didn't want to just axe a feature because some
folks commented negatively on it. Those who find things useful usually
don't comment, so all they're bound to hear is the negative ones.

On 10/28/18, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't keep up with current versions of NVDA because I don't have machines
they are compatible with. In the old days, NVDA used to say clickable much
too often, repeating it many times before it read the text that was supposed
to be clickable. Often, this text wasn't actually clickable. I don't know
that because I tried clicking on everything announced as such, but the
context made it obvious. Has this problem been corrected? I would think
that if it has and only clickable items are announced, this wouldn't be a
problem. But perhaps one reason you get so much negative reaction is if the
problem hasn't been corrected.

But why limit the inquiry to clickable items? Why are block quotes
announced by default and lists. I don't know how others find such
information being announced by default but to me, it's clutter. What about
landmarks? I never use the landmark announcement but I don't know if they
are useful. I also wonder whether, even if they are useful, they discourage
people from learning how to navigate sites without them efficiently. My
concern is that if you become too dependent on special accessibility
accomodations, where a lot of sites don't have them, it may discourage many
people from using sites that don't. I started using the Internet before any
of these accomodations but when discussions such as this come up, I wonder
about such questions.

There may be things I don't know such as that a lot of smaller sites use
landmarks and use them properly but I don't know if that's the case and I
suspect that a lot of sites don't use them at all.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Mary Otten
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2018 9:31 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October


Remember, your request was only four people to reply with positive. How is
it used for? I for instance don’t like it and find it worthless. But I did
not respond, because you were looking for positive responses. So the fact
that you got 50-50 tells me that there are a lot more who don’t like it then
those who do. Those of us who respected your request are screwed. Get rid of
it! Or at least make it possible for those of us who have not found it
helpful to shut it off.

Mary



On Oct 28, 2018, at 6:54 PM, Quentin Christensen <quentin@nvaccess.org>
wrote:


Re clickable, the comments from everyone seem divided between "it can be
really useful so I leave it on" and "it's really annoying and not useful
most of the time, get rid of it". I think it perhaps also depends on the
sites you visit and how readily you turn out of superfluous information
being read. A very good example of that people are much more likely to
complain about what doesn't work than praise what does - I think all the
feedback we had received on clickable previously had been about how annoying
it was and that it read clickable when it really wasn't helpful.


Re predictive text Adriani, I must admit I hadn't used it myself until
someone asked last week and I tried it out. I think if you are proficient
with a physical keyboard, it's probably not so useful for an average user on
PC where you are most likely already typing on a physical keyboard. But it
could definitely be a lifesaver for some users so it's good that it's
there.




On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 5:50 PM Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
<bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:

Its better than saying nothing. Sometimes in the shark these are also
ambiguous, one suspects because the info exposed on what they do is
incomplete and so one has to just indicate they are there to supposedly
do
something. I often wonder at the logic of page design when nobody knows

quite what they will get when they use a control.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adriani Botez" <adriani.botez@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2018 10:57 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October


Hey Quentin,



I am replying to this e-mail after reading the last in-process.



For me at least, saying “clickable” does not help in deducting if I have
to
do it or not. In fact, most times “clickable” does not perform an action
at
all when pressing enter on it.



Regarding profiles, i am using profiles for MS Excel, MS Word, MS
Outlook
and Firefox. At work I am using profiles for SAP web based services
because
they have thousants of tables which in fact are only layout tables but
NVDA
recognize them as normal tables. So I have to use profiles to disable
tables
because otherwise I get crazy when navigating through the complex
pages.



Windows 10 predictible text is a new function to me, but I find it more

useful for tablests and smartfones. I don’t use it on normal keyboards.
But
I guess it is a very good feature for people with motoric disabilities.





Best

Adriani





Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Quentin
Christensen
Gesendet: Freitag, 26. Oktober 2018 08:20
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October



Hi everyone,



This week's In-Process is out. Today, we have more information about the

recently released NVDA 2018.3.2, a shout out to GlitchedVision for his
innovative fundraiser, and not one but two quick tutorials - on
Configuration Profiles, & Predictive Text in Windows 10. Enjoy!



https://www.nvaccess.org/post/in-process-26th-october-2018/



Regards



Quentin.

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager



Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
<http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/



<http://www.nvaccess.org/> www.nvaccess.org

Facebook: <http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess>
http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess















--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/


www.nvaccess.org

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess




--
Remember! Friends Help Friends Be Cybersafe
Jackie McBride
Helping Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a Time
https://brighter-vision.com


Quentin Christensen
 

Gene re your query about whether things which can't be clicked on being announced as clickable has been "corrected", you'll need to check with the web developers.  Technically, it's not an error on our part, as we are only sharing with the user the information the web developer has given us - we have no way of testing whether anything will actually happen or not if you try and activate any given element.  The problem, as you allude to, is that too often things are announced as clickable when they are not and when that announcement isn't useful.  So for now, the best we can do is work out whether users do use it or not as if people don't find it useful, we could uncheck that option by default.  Without opening a Pandora's box, yes we could ask about other document formatting options, or indeed, any options' default state, but clickable is probably the one we get the most negative responses about.





On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 3:54 PM Jackie <abletec@...> wrote:
Well, I actually responded to the email that was provided for a
response in the request. I indicated that for me, there have been
countless times when an object was clickable, but because the web
developer in question didn't make it a link or a button, it would be
impossible to know that unless NVDA said "clickable". I did also
indicate that saying it multiple times was beyond annoying.
Additionally, I also suggested that there be a way to toggle the
feature on or off, per user preference. It's incorrect to assume that
because folks didn't respond positively on list that no one likes the
feature. I rather suspect instead that many of us simply used the
private email w/which we were provided.

If web authors would develop according to WCAG, there would be no need
for the feature. They don't; thus, there is. If you're fortunate
enough to visit only those websites that adhere to those standards,
then great. If on the other hand, you find yourself visiting a
multiplicity of sites, many of which do not conform to accessibility
guidelines, then it helps to know that an element can be interacted
with, because all indications are that it cannot.

They were looking for positive responses because they simply wanted to
see if anyone found it useful, & perhaps get an estimate of how many
that might be. They didn't want to just axe a feature because some
folks commented negatively on it. Those who find things useful usually
don't comment, so all they're bound to hear is the negative ones.

On 10/28/18, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
> I don't keep up with current versions of NVDA because I don't have machines
> they are compatible with. In the old days, NVDA used to say clickable much
> too often, repeating it many times before it read the text that was supposed
> to be clickable.  Often, this text wasn't actually clickable.  I don't know
> that because I tried clicking on everything announced as such, but the
> context made it obvious.  Has this problem been corrected?  I would think
> that if it has and only clickable items are announced, this wouldn't be a
> problem.  But perhaps one reason you get so much negative reaction is if the
> problem hasn't been corrected.
>
> But why limit the inquiry to clickable items?  Why are block quotes
> announced by default and lists.  I don't know how others find such
> information being announced by default but to me, it's clutter.  What about
> landmarks?  I never use the landmark announcement but I don't know if they
> are useful.  I also wonder whether, even if they are useful, they discourage
> people from learning how to navigate sites without them efficiently.  My
> concern is that if you become too dependent on special accessibility
> accomodations, where a lot of sites don't have them, it may discourage many
> people from using sites that don't.  I started using the Internet before any
> of these accomodations but when discussions such as this come up, I wonder
> about such questions.
>
> There may be things I don't know such as that a lot of smaller sites use
> landmarks and use them properly but I don't know if that's the case and I
> suspect that a lot of sites don't use them at all.
>
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mary Otten
> Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2018 9:31 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October
>
>
> Remember, your request was only four people to reply with positive. How is
> it used for? I for instance don’t like it and find it worthless. But I did
> not respond, because you were looking for positive responses. So the fact
> that you got 50-50 tells me that there are a lot more who don’t like it then
> those who do. Those of us who respected your request are screwed. Get rid of
> it! Or at least make it possible for those of us who have not found it
> helpful to shut it off.
>
> Mary
>
>
>
> On Oct 28, 2018, at 6:54 PM, Quentin Christensen <quentin@...>
> wrote:
>
>
>   Re clickable, the comments from everyone seem divided between "it can be
> really useful so I leave it on" and "it's really annoying and not useful
> most of the time, get rid of it".  I think it perhaps also depends on the
> sites you visit and how readily you turn out of superfluous information
> being read.  A very good example of that people are much more likely to
> complain about what doesn't work than praise what does - I think all the
> feedback we had received on clickable previously had been about how annoying
> it was and that it read clickable when it really wasn't helpful.
>
>
>   Re predictive text Adriani, I must admit I hadn't used it myself until
> someone asked last week and I tried it out.  I think if you are proficient
> with a physical keyboard, it's probably not so useful for an average user on
> PC where you are most likely already typing on a physical keyboard.  But it
> could definitely be a lifesaver for some users so it's good that it's
> there.
>
>
>
>
>   On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 5:50 PM Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
> <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
>
>     Its better than saying nothing. Sometimes in the shark these are also
>     ambiguous, one suspects because the info exposed on what they do is
>     incomplete and so one has to just indicate they are there to supposedly
> do
>     something. I often wonder at the logic of page design when nobody knows
>
>     quite what they will get when they use a control.
>      Brian
>
>     bglists@...
>     Sent via blueyonder.
>     Please address personal E-mail to:-
>     briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>     in the display name field.
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     From: "Adriani Botez" <adriani.botez@...>
>     To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>     Sent: Friday, October 26, 2018 10:57 PM
>     Subject: Re: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October
>
>
>     Hey Quentin,
>
>
>
>     I am replying to this e-mail after reading the last in-process.
>
>
>
>     For me at least, saying “clickable” does not help in deducting if I have
> to
>     do it or not. In fact, most times “clickable” does not perform an action
> at
>     all when pressing enter on it.
>
>
>
>     Regarding profiles, i am using profiles for MS Excel, MS Word, MS
> Outlook
>     and Firefox. At work I am using profiles for SAP web based services
> because
>     they have thousants of tables which in fact are only layout tables but
> NVDA
>     recognize them as normal tables. So I have to use profiles to disable
> tables
>     because otherwise I get crazy when navigating through the complex
> pages.
>
>
>
>     Windows 10 predictible text is a new function to me, but I find it more
>
>     useful for tablests and smartfones. I don’t use it on normal keyboards.
> But
>     I guess it is a very good feature for people with motoric disabilities.
>
>
>
>
>
>     Best
>
>     Adriani
>
>
>
>
>
>     Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Quentin
>     Christensen
>     Gesendet: Freitag, 26. Oktober 2018 08:20
>     An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>     Betreff: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October
>
>
>
>     Hi everyone,
>
>
>
>     This week's In-Process is out. Today, we have more information about the
>
>     recently released NVDA 2018.3.2, a shout out to GlitchedVision for his
>     innovative fundraiser, and not one but two quick tutorials - on
>     Configuration Profiles, & Predictive Text in Windows 10. Enjoy!
>
>
>
>     https://www.nvaccess.org/post/in-process-26th-october-2018/
>
>
>
>     Regards
>
>
>
>     Quentin.
>
>     --
>
>     Quentin Christensen
>     Training and Support Manager
>
>
>
>     Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
>     <http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>
>
>
>      <http://www.nvaccess.org/> www.nvaccess.org
>
>     Facebook:  <http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess>
>     http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>     Twitter: @NVAccess
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>   --
>
>   Quentin Christensen
>   Training and Support Manager
>
>
>   Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>
>
>   www.nvaccess.org
>
>   Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>   Twitter: @NVAccess
>
>
>
>
>


--
Remember! Friends Help Friends Be Cybersafe
Jackie McBride
Helping Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a Time
https://brighter-vision.com





--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Gene
 

You can turn it off.  You can find the setting in documeht formatting.  if you need information about that dialog, we will provide it. 
 
I don't have clickable on.  Iff I am on a site and I don't see a way, such as a link, a button, or another control that is read, to do something, then I press enter on the text that logically is applicable, if any.  While it may be that rarely, I might want to turn clickable on to be sure about whether there is or isn't a clickable control to do what I want, it is so rare, that I don't remember if or when I did so.  Logic and inference is important in using the Internet well.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Jackie
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2018 11:54 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October

Well, I actually responded to the email that was provided for a
response in the request. I indicated that for me, there have been
countless times when an object was clickable, but because the web
developer in question didn't make it a link or a button, it would be
impossible to know that unless NVDA said "clickable". I did also
indicate that saying it multiple times was beyond annoying.
Additionally, I also suggested that there be a way to toggle the
feature on or off, per user preference. It's incorrect to assume that
because folks didn't respond positively on list that no one likes the
feature. I rather suspect instead that many of us simply used the
private email w/which we were provided.

If web authors would develop according to WCAG, there would be no need
for the feature. They don't; thus, there is. If you're fortunate
enough to visit only those websites that adhere to those standards,
then great. If on the other hand, you find yourself visiting a
multiplicity of sites, many of which do not conform to accessibility
guidelines, then it helps to know that an element can be interacted
with, because all indications are that it cannot.

They were looking for positive responses because they simply wanted to
see if anyone found it useful, & perhaps get an estimate of how many
that might be. They didn't want to just axe a feature because some
folks commented negatively on it. Those who find things useful usually
don't comment, so all they're bound to hear is the negative ones.

On 10/28/18, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
> I don't keep up with current versions of NVDA because I don't have machines
> they are compatible with. In the old days, NVDA used to say clickable much
> too often, repeating it many times before it read the text that was supposed
> to be clickable.  Often, this text wasn't actually clickable.  I don't know
> that because I tried clicking on everything announced as such, but the
> context made it obvious.  Has this problem been corrected?  I would think
> that if it has and only clickable items are announced, this wouldn't be a
> problem.  But perhaps one reason you get so much negative reaction is if the
> problem hasn't been corrected.
>
> But why limit the inquiry to clickable items?  Why are block quotes
> announced by default and lists.  I don't know how others find such
> information being announced by default but to me, it's clutter.  What about
> landmarks?  I never use the landmark announcement but I don't know if they
> are useful.  I also wonder whether, even if they are useful, they discourage
> people from learning how to navigate sites without them efficiently.  My
> concern is that if you become too dependent on special accessibility
> accomodations, where a lot of sites don't have them, it may discourage many
> people from using sites that don't.  I started using the Internet before any
> of these accomodations but when discussions such as this come up, I wonder
> about such questions.
>
> There may be things I don't know such as that a lot of smaller sites use
> landmarks and use them properly but I don't know if that's the case and I
> suspect that a lot of sites don't use them at all.
>
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mary Otten
> Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2018 9:31 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October
>
>
> Remember, your request was only four people to reply with positive. How is
> it used for? I for instance don’t like it and find it worthless. But I did
> not respond, because you were looking for positive responses. So the fact
> that you got 50-50 tells me that there are a lot more who don’t like it then
> those who do. Those of us who respected your request are screwed. Get rid of
> it! Or at least make it possible for those of us who have not found it
> helpful to shut it off.
>
> Mary
>
>
>
> On Oct 28, 2018, at 6:54 PM, Quentin Christensen <quentin@...>
> wrote:
>
>
>   Re clickable, the comments from everyone seem divided between "it can be
> really useful so I leave it on" and "it's really annoying and not useful
> most of the time, get rid of it".  I think it perhaps also depends on the
> sites you visit and how readily you turn out of superfluous information
> being read.  A very good example of that people are much more likely to
> complain about what doesn't work than praise what does - I think all the
> feedback we had received on clickable previously had been about how annoying
> it was and that it read clickable when it really wasn't helpful.
>
>
>   Re predictive text Adriani, I must admit I hadn't used it myself until
> someone asked last week and I tried it out.  I think if you are proficient
> with a physical keyboard, it's probably not so useful for an average user on
> PC where you are most likely already typing on a physical keyboard.  But it
> could definitely be a lifesaver for some users so it's good that it's
> there.
>
>
>
>
>   On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 5:50 PM Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
> <bglists@...> wrote:
>
>     Its better than saying nothing. Sometimes in the shark these are also
>     ambiguous, one suspects because the info exposed on what they do is
>     incomplete and so one has to just indicate they are there to supposedly
> do
>     something. I often wonder at the logic of page design when nobody knows
>
>     quite what they will get when they use a control.
>      Brian
>
>     bglists@...
>     Sent via blueyonder.
>     Please address personal E-mail to:-
>     briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>     in the display name field.
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     From: "Adriani Botez" <adriani.botez@...>
>     To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>     Sent: Friday, October 26, 2018 10:57 PM
>     Subject: Re: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October
>
>
>     Hey Quentin,
>
>
>
>     I am replying to this e-mail after reading the last in-process.
>
>
>
>     For me at least, saying “clickable” does not help in deducting if I have
> to
>     do it or not. In fact, most times “clickable” does not perform an action
> at
>     all when pressing enter on it.
>
>
>
>     Regarding profiles, i am using profiles for MS Excel, MS Word, MS
> Outlook
>     and Firefox. At work I am using profiles for SAP web based services
> because
>     they have thousants of tables which in fact are only layout tables but
> NVDA
>     recognize them as normal tables. So I have to use profiles to disable
> tables
>     because otherwise I get crazy when navigating through the complex
> pages.
>
>
>
>     Windows 10 predictible text is a new function to me, but I find it more
>
>     useful for tablests and smartfones. I don’t use it on normal keyboards.
> But
>     I guess it is a very good feature for people with motoric disabilities.
>
>
>
>
>
>     Best
>
>     Adriani
>
>
>
>
>
>     Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Quentin
>     Christensen
>     Gesendet: Freitag, 26. Oktober 2018 08:20
>     An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>     Betreff: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October
>
>
>
>     Hi everyone,
>
>
>
>     This week's In-Process is out. Today, we have more information about the
>
>     recently released NVDA 2018.3.2, a shout out to GlitchedVision for his
>     innovative fundraiser, and not one but two quick tutorials - on
>     Configuration Profiles, & Predictive Text in Windows 10. Enjoy!
>
>
>
>     https://www.nvaccess.org/post/in-process-26th-october-2018/
>
>
>
>     Regards
>
>
>
>     Quentin.
>
>     --
>
>     Quentin Christensen
>     Training and Support Manager
>
>
>
>     Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
>     <http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>
>
>
>      <http://www.nvaccess.org/> www.nvaccess.org
>
>     Facebook:  <http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess>
>     http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>     Twitter: @NVAccess
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>   --
>
>   Quentin Christensen
>   Training and Support Manager
>
>
>   Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>
>
>   www.nvaccess.org
>
>   Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>   Twitter: @NVAccess
>
>
>
>
>


--
Remember! Friends Help Friends Be Cybersafe
Jackie McBride
Helping Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a Time
https://brighter-vision.com



 

hi gene and quentin.
announcing clickable multiple times is the issue that i faced many
times on websites.
also, i am not comfortable with announcing any elements and many
months ago, i unchecked all the elements except reporting page number!
i believe it made for me using the web very easy, because i can read
anything that i want easily without hearing elements which makes
reading pages difficult and time consuming!
i really appreciate you all developers of nvda because of providing
changing reporting elements very easy for us.

On 10/29/18, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
You can turn it off. You can find the setting in documeht formatting. if
you need information about that dialog, we will provide it.

I don't have clickable on. Iff I am on a site and I don't see a way, such
as a link, a button, or another control that is read, to do something, then
I press enter on the text that logically is applicable, if any. While it
may be that rarely, I might want to turn clickable on to be sure about
whether there is or isn't a clickable control to do what I want, it is so
rare, that I don't remember if or when I did so. Logic and inference is
important in using the Internet well.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Jackie
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2018 11:54 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October


Well, I actually responded to the email that was provided for a
response in the request. I indicated that for me, there have been
countless times when an object was clickable, but because the web
developer in question didn't make it a link or a button, it would be
impossible to know that unless NVDA said "clickable". I did also
indicate that saying it multiple times was beyond annoying.
Additionally, I also suggested that there be a way to toggle the
feature on or off, per user preference. It's incorrect to assume that
because folks didn't respond positively on list that no one likes the
feature. I rather suspect instead that many of us simply used the
private email w/which we were provided.

If web authors would develop according to WCAG, there would be no need
for the feature. They don't; thus, there is. If you're fortunate
enough to visit only those websites that adhere to those standards,
then great. If on the other hand, you find yourself visiting a
multiplicity of sites, many of which do not conform to accessibility
guidelines, then it helps to know that an element can be interacted
with, because all indications are that it cannot.

They were looking for positive responses because they simply wanted to
see if anyone found it useful, & perhaps get an estimate of how many
that might be. They didn't want to just axe a feature because some
folks commented negatively on it. Those who find things useful usually
don't comment, so all they're bound to hear is the negative ones.

On 10/28/18, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't keep up with current versions of NVDA because I don't have
machines
they are compatible with. In the old days, NVDA used to say clickable
much
too often, repeating it many times before it read the text that was
supposed
to be clickable. Often, this text wasn't actually clickable. I don't
know
that because I tried clicking on everything announced as such, but the
context made it obvious. Has this problem been corrected? I would think
that if it has and only clickable items are announced, this wouldn't be a
problem. But perhaps one reason you get so much negative reaction is if
the
problem hasn't been corrected.

But why limit the inquiry to clickable items? Why are block quotes
announced by default and lists. I don't know how others find such
information being announced by default but to me, it's clutter. What
about
landmarks? I never use the landmark announcement but I don't know if
they
are useful. I also wonder whether, even if they are useful, they
discourage
people from learning how to navigate sites without them efficiently. My
concern is that if you become too dependent on special accessibility
accomodations, where a lot of sites don't have them, it may discourage
many
people from using sites that don't. I started using the Internet before
any
of these accomodations but when discussions such as this come up, I
wonder
about such questions.

There may be things I don't know such as that a lot of smaller sites use
landmarks and use them properly but I don't know if that's the case and I
suspect that a lot of sites don't use them at all.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Mary Otten
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2018 9:31 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October


Remember, your request was only four people to reply with positive. How
is
it used for? I for instance don’t like it and find it worthless. But I
did
not respond, because you were looking for positive responses. So the fact
that you got 50-50 tells me that there are a lot more who don’t like it
then
those who do. Those of us who respected your request are screwed. Get rid
of
it! Or at least make it possible for those of us who have not found it
helpful to shut it off.

Mary



On Oct 28, 2018, at 6:54 PM, Quentin Christensen <quentin@nvaccess.org>
wrote:


Re clickable, the comments from everyone seem divided between "it can
be
really useful so I leave it on" and "it's really annoying and not useful
most of the time, get rid of it". I think it perhaps also depends on the
sites you visit and how readily you turn out of superfluous information
being read. A very good example of that people are much more likely to
complain about what doesn't work than praise what does - I think all the
feedback we had received on clickable previously had been about how
annoying
it was and that it read clickable when it really wasn't helpful.


Re predictive text Adriani, I must admit I hadn't used it myself until
someone asked last week and I tried it out. I think if you are
proficient
with a physical keyboard, it's probably not so useful for an average user
on
PC where you are most likely already typing on a physical keyboard. But
it
could definitely be a lifesaver for some users so it's good that it's
there.




On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 5:50 PM Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
<bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:

Its better than saying nothing. Sometimes in the shark these are also
ambiguous, one suspects because the info exposed on what they do is
incomplete and so one has to just indicate they are there to
supposedly
do
something. I often wonder at the logic of page design when nobody
knows

quite what they will get when they use a control.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adriani Botez" <adriani.botez@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2018 10:57 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October


Hey Quentin,



I am replying to this e-mail after reading the last in-process.



For me at least, saying “clickable” does not help in deducting if I
have
to
do it or not. In fact, most times “clickable” does not perform an
action
at
all when pressing enter on it.



Regarding profiles, i am using profiles for MS Excel, MS Word, MS
Outlook
and Firefox. At work I am using profiles for SAP web based services
because
they have thousants of tables which in fact are only layout tables
but
NVDA
recognize them as normal tables. So I have to use profiles to disable
tables
because otherwise I get crazy when navigating through the complex
pages.



Windows 10 predictible text is a new function to me, but I find it
more

useful for tablests and smartfones. I don’t use it on normal
keyboards.
But
I guess it is a very good feature for people with motoric
disabilities.





Best

Adriani





Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Quentin
Christensen
Gesendet: Freitag, 26. Oktober 2018 08:20
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October



Hi everyone,



This week's In-Process is out. Today, we have more information about
the

recently released NVDA 2018.3.2, a shout out to GlitchedVision for
his
innovative fundraiser, and not one but two quick tutorials - on
Configuration Profiles, & Predictive Text in Windows 10. Enjoy!



https://www.nvaccess.org/post/in-process-26th-october-2018/



Regards



Quentin.

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager



Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now
available:
<http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/



<http://www.nvaccess.org/> www.nvaccess.org

Facebook: <http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess>
http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess















--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/


www.nvaccess.org

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess





--
Remember! Friends Help Friends Be Cybersafe
Jackie McBride
Helping Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a Time
https://brighter-vision.com





--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali


Gene
 

It appears to me that this needs further discussion and clarification.  I don't know if this is still the case, but in the past, quite some time ago, I could stop most repetitions of clickable from being spoken by turning JAVA scripts off.  I could also, as I recall, stop most erroneous clickable announcements by doing so.  I'd have to experiment with this to see if my memory is correct.  And, as I said, I don't know if more current versions of NVDA have this repetition and erroneous clickable announcements.  But if they do, I think that is likely what is generating most of the negative messages received concerning clickable.  I am not assuming anything, I haven't looked at this for a long time, I have clickable off, and I don't have a system that can run recent NVDA versions, but I'm raising the question about whether NVDA is misreading something in JAVA script that is causing these problems.  I don't recall either erroneous clickable announcements in JAWS nore multiple repetitions of clickable before the text or control is read.  This, I hope, will be further discussed by those using the current NVDA.
 

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2018 2:11 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October

You can turn it off.  You can find the setting in documeht formatting.  if you need information about that dialog, we will provide it. 
 
I don't have clickable on.  Iff I am on a site and I don't see a way, such as a link, a button, or another control that is read, to do something, then I press enter on the text that logically is applicable, if any.  While it may be that rarely, I might want to turn clickable on to be sure about whether there is or isn't a clickable control to do what I want, it is so rare, that I don't remember if or when I did so.  Logic and inference is important in using the Internet well.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Jackie
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2018 11:54 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October

Well, I actually responded to the email that was provided for a
response in the request. I indicated that for me, there have been
countless times when an object was clickable, but because the web
developer in question didn't make it a link or a button, it would be
impossible to know that unless NVDA said "clickable". I did also
indicate that saying it multiple times was beyond annoying.
Additionally, I also suggested that there be a way to toggle the
feature on or off, per user preference. It's incorrect to assume that
because folks didn't respond positively on list that no one likes the
feature. I rather suspect instead that many of us simply used the
private email w/which we were provided.

If web authors would develop according to WCAG, there would be no need
for the feature. They don't; thus, there is. If you're fortunate
enough to visit only those websites that adhere to those standards,
then great. If on the other hand, you find yourself visiting a
multiplicity of sites, many of which do not conform to accessibility
guidelines, then it helps to know that an element can be interacted
with, because all indications are that it cannot.

They were looking for positive responses because they simply wanted to
see if anyone found it useful, & perhaps get an estimate of how many
that might be. They didn't want to just axe a feature because some
folks commented negatively on it. Those who find things useful usually
don't comment, so all they're bound to hear is the negative ones.

On 10/28/18, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
> I don't keep up with current versions of NVDA because I don't have machines
> they are compatible with. In the old days, NVDA used to say clickable much
> too often, repeating it many times before it read the text that was supposed
> to be clickable.  Often, this text wasn't actually clickable.  I don't know
> that because I tried clicking on everything announced as such, but the
> context made it obvious.  Has this problem been corrected?  I would think
> that if it has and only clickable items are announced, this wouldn't be a
> problem.  But perhaps one reason you get so much negative reaction is if the
> problem hasn't been corrected.
>
> But why limit the inquiry to clickable items?  Why are block quotes
> announced by default and lists.  I don't know how others find such
> information being announced by default but to me, it's clutter.  What about
> landmarks?  I never use the landmark announcement but I don't know if they
> are useful.  I also wonder whether, even if they are useful, they discourage
> people from learning how to navigate sites without them efficiently.  My
> concern is that if you become too dependent on special accessibility
> accomodations, where a lot of sites don't have them, it may discourage many
> people from using sites that don't.  I started using the Internet before any
> of these accomodations but when discussions such as this come up, I wonder
> about such questions.
>
> There may be things I don't know such as that a lot of smaller sites use
> landmarks and use them properly but I don't know if that's the case and I
> suspect that a lot of sites don't use them at all.
>
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mary Otten
> Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2018 9:31 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October
>
>
> Remember, your request was only four people to reply with positive. How is
> it used for? I for instance don’t like it and find it worthless. But I did
> not respond, because you were looking for positive responses. So the fact
> that you got 50-50 tells me that there are a lot more who don’t like it then
> those who do. Those of us who respected your request are screwed. Get rid of
> it! Or at least make it possible for those of us who have not found it
> helpful to shut it off.
>
> Mary
>
>
>
> On Oct 28, 2018, at 6:54 PM, Quentin Christensen <quentin@...>
> wrote:
>
>
>   Re clickable, the comments from everyone seem divided between "it can be
> really useful so I leave it on" and "it's really annoying and not useful
> most of the time, get rid of it".  I think it perhaps also depends on the
> sites you visit and how readily you turn out of superfluous information
> being read.  A very good example of that people are much more likely to
> complain about what doesn't work than praise what does - I think all the
> feedback we had received on clickable previously had been about how annoying
> it was and that it read clickable when it really wasn't helpful.
>
>
>   Re predictive text Adriani, I must admit I hadn't used it myself until
> someone asked last week and I tried it out.  I think if you are proficient
> with a physical keyboard, it's probably not so useful for an average user on
> PC where you are most likely already typing on a physical keyboard.  But it
> could definitely be a lifesaver for some users so it's good that it's
> there.
>
>
>
>
>   On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 5:50 PM Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
> <bglists@...> wrote:
>
>     Its better than saying nothing. Sometimes in the shark these are also
>     ambiguous, one suspects because the info exposed on what they do is
>     incomplete and so one has to just indicate they are there to supposedly
> do
>     something. I often wonder at the logic of page design when nobody knows
>
>     quite what they will get when they use a control.
>      Brian
>
>     bglists@...
>     Sent via blueyonder.
>     Please address personal E-mail to:-
>     briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>     in the display name field.
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     From: "Adriani Botez" <adriani.botez@...>
>     To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>     Sent: Friday, October 26, 2018 10:57 PM
>     Subject: Re: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October
>
>
>     Hey Quentin,
>
>
>
>     I am replying to this e-mail after reading the last in-process.
>
>
>
>     For me at least, saying “clickable” does not help in deducting if I have
> to
>     do it or not. In fact, most times “clickable” does not perform an action
> at
>     all when pressing enter on it.
>
>
>
>     Regarding profiles, i am using profiles for MS Excel, MS Word, MS
> Outlook
>     and Firefox. At work I am using profiles for SAP web based services
> because
>     they have thousants of tables which in fact are only layout tables but
> NVDA
>     recognize them as normal tables. So I have to use profiles to disable
> tables
>     because otherwise I get crazy when navigating through the complex
> pages.
>
>
>
>     Windows 10 predictible text is a new function to me, but I find it more
>
>     useful for tablests and smartfones. I don’t use it on normal keyboards.
> But
>     I guess it is a very good feature for people with motoric disabilities.
>
>
>
>
>
>     Best
>
>     Adriani
>
>
>
>
>
>     Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Quentin
>     Christensen
>     Gesendet: Freitag, 26. Oktober 2018 08:20
>     An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>     Betreff: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October
>
>
>
>     Hi everyone,
>
>
>
>     This week's In-Process is out. Today, we have more information about the
>
>     recently released NVDA 2018.3.2, a shout out to GlitchedVision for his
>     innovative fundraiser, and not one but two quick tutorials - on
>     Configuration Profiles, & Predictive Text in Windows 10. Enjoy!
>
>
>
>     https://www.nvaccess.org/post/in-process-26th-october-2018/
>
>
>
>     Regards
>
>
>
>     Quentin.
>
>     --
>
>     Quentin Christensen
>     Training and Support Manager
>
>
>
>     Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
>     <http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>
>
>
>      <http://www.nvaccess.org/> www.nvaccess.org
>
>     Facebook:  <http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess>
>     http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>     Twitter: @NVAccess
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>   --
>
>   Quentin Christensen
>   Training and Support Manager
>
>
>   Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>
>
>   www.nvaccess.org
>
>   Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>   Twitter: @NVAccess
>
>
>
>
>


--
Remember! Friends Help Friends Be Cybersafe
Jackie McBride
Helping Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a Time
https://brighter-vision.com



 

i believe javascript is the source of different kind of problems!
i wish that javascript will be removed in the near future from internet.
from vulnerabilities until heavy usage of system resources and heating
my laptop and dynamic web pages and conflict and accessibility
problems for screen readers!
i really hate dynamic web pages and updating web browsers!
i wish static web pages with specific version of browsers without updating.
as you know, i never use firefox quantum and firefox 52 is sufficient
for me forever.

On 10/29/18, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
It appears to me that this needs further discussion and clarification. I
don't know if this is still the case, but in the past, quite some time ago,
I could stop most repetitions of clickable from being spoken by turning JAVA
scripts off. I could also, as I recall, stop most erroneous clickable
announcements by doing so. I'd have to experiment with this to see if my
memory is correct. And, as I said, I don't know if more current versions of
NVDA have this repetition and erroneous clickable announcements. But if
they do, I think that is likely what is generating most of the negative
messages received concerning clickable. I am not assuming anything, I
haven't looked at this for a long time, I have clickable off, and I don't
have a system that can run recent NVDA versions, but I'm raising the
question about whether NVDA is misreading something in JAVA script that is
causing these problems. I don't recall either erroneous clickable
announcements in JAWS nore multiple repetitions of clickable before the text
or control is read. This, I hope, will be further discussed by those using
the current NVDA.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Gene
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2018 2:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October


You can turn it off. You can find the setting in documeht formatting. if
you need information about that dialog, we will provide it.

I don't have clickable on. Iff I am on a site and I don't see a way, such
as a link, a button, or another control that is read, to do something, then
I press enter on the text that logically is applicable, if any. While it
may be that rarely, I might want to turn clickable on to be sure about
whether there is or isn't a clickable control to do what I want, it is so
rare, that I don't remember if or when I did so. Logic and inference is
important in using the Internet well.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Jackie
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2018 11:54 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October


Well, I actually responded to the email that was provided for a
response in the request. I indicated that for me, there have been
countless times when an object was clickable, but because the web
developer in question didn't make it a link or a button, it would be
impossible to know that unless NVDA said "clickable". I did also
indicate that saying it multiple times was beyond annoying.
Additionally, I also suggested that there be a way to toggle the
feature on or off, per user preference. It's incorrect to assume that
because folks didn't respond positively on list that no one likes the
feature. I rather suspect instead that many of us simply used the
private email w/which we were provided.

If web authors would develop according to WCAG, there would be no need
for the feature. They don't; thus, there is. If you're fortunate
enough to visit only those websites that adhere to those standards,
then great. If on the other hand, you find yourself visiting a
multiplicity of sites, many of which do not conform to accessibility
guidelines, then it helps to know that an element can be interacted
with, because all indications are that it cannot.

They were looking for positive responses because they simply wanted to
see if anyone found it useful, & perhaps get an estimate of how many
that might be. They didn't want to just axe a feature because some
folks commented negatively on it. Those who find things useful usually
don't comment, so all they're bound to hear is the negative ones.

On 10/28/18, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't keep up with current versions of NVDA because I don't have
machines
they are compatible with. In the old days, NVDA used to say clickable
much
too often, repeating it many times before it read the text that was
supposed
to be clickable. Often, this text wasn't actually clickable. I don't
know
that because I tried clicking on everything announced as such, but the
context made it obvious. Has this problem been corrected? I would think
that if it has and only clickable items are announced, this wouldn't be a
problem. But perhaps one reason you get so much negative reaction is if
the
problem hasn't been corrected.

But why limit the inquiry to clickable items? Why are block quotes
announced by default and lists. I don't know how others find such
information being announced by default but to me, it's clutter. What
about
landmarks? I never use the landmark announcement but I don't know if
they
are useful. I also wonder whether, even if they are useful, they
discourage
people from learning how to navigate sites without them efficiently. My
concern is that if you become too dependent on special accessibility
accomodations, where a lot of sites don't have them, it may discourage
many
people from using sites that don't. I started using the Internet before
any
of these accomodations but when discussions such as this come up, I
wonder
about such questions.

There may be things I don't know such as that a lot of smaller sites use
landmarks and use them properly but I don't know if that's the case and I
suspect that a lot of sites don't use them at all.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Mary Otten
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2018 9:31 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October


Remember, your request was only four people to reply with positive. How
is
it used for? I for instance don’t like it and find it worthless. But I
did
not respond, because you were looking for positive responses. So the fact
that you got 50-50 tells me that there are a lot more who don’t like it
then
those who do. Those of us who respected your request are screwed. Get rid
of
it! Or at least make it possible for those of us who have not found it
helpful to shut it off.

Mary



On Oct 28, 2018, at 6:54 PM, Quentin Christensen <quentin@nvaccess.org>
wrote:


Re clickable, the comments from everyone seem divided between "it can
be
really useful so I leave it on" and "it's really annoying and not useful
most of the time, get rid of it". I think it perhaps also depends on the
sites you visit and how readily you turn out of superfluous information
being read. A very good example of that people are much more likely to
complain about what doesn't work than praise what does - I think all the
feedback we had received on clickable previously had been about how
annoying
it was and that it read clickable when it really wasn't helpful.


Re predictive text Adriani, I must admit I hadn't used it myself until
someone asked last week and I tried it out. I think if you are
proficient
with a physical keyboard, it's probably not so useful for an average user
on
PC where you are most likely already typing on a physical keyboard. But
it
could definitely be a lifesaver for some users so it's good that it's
there.




On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 5:50 PM Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
<bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:

Its better than saying nothing. Sometimes in the shark these are also
ambiguous, one suspects because the info exposed on what they do is
incomplete and so one has to just indicate they are there to
supposedly
do
something. I often wonder at the logic of page design when nobody
knows

quite what they will get when they use a control.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adriani Botez" <adriani.botez@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2018 10:57 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October


Hey Quentin,



I am replying to this e-mail after reading the last in-process.



For me at least, saying “clickable” does not help in deducting if I
have
to
do it or not. In fact, most times “clickable” does not perform an
action
at
all when pressing enter on it.



Regarding profiles, i am using profiles for MS Excel, MS Word, MS
Outlook
and Firefox. At work I am using profiles for SAP web based services
because
they have thousants of tables which in fact are only layout tables
but
NVDA
recognize them as normal tables. So I have to use profiles to disable
tables
because otherwise I get crazy when navigating through the complex
pages.



Windows 10 predictible text is a new function to me, but I find it
more

useful for tablests and smartfones. I don’t use it on normal
keyboards.
But
I guess it is a very good feature for people with motoric
disabilities.





Best

Adriani





Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Quentin
Christensen
Gesendet: Freitag, 26. Oktober 2018 08:20
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October



Hi everyone,



This week's In-Process is out. Today, we have more information about
the

recently released NVDA 2018.3.2, a shout out to GlitchedVision for
his
innovative fundraiser, and not one but two quick tutorials - on
Configuration Profiles, & Predictive Text in Windows 10. Enjoy!



https://www.nvaccess.org/post/in-process-26th-october-2018/



Regards



Quentin.

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager



Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now
available:
<http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/



<http://www.nvaccess.org/> www.nvaccess.org

Facebook: <http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess>
http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess















--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/


www.nvaccess.org

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess





--
Remember! Friends Help Friends Be Cybersafe
Jackie McBride
Helping Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a Time
https://brighter-vision.com





--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali


Jackie
 

Javascript will very likely be around for a long time. Most webpages
depend on it to varying degrees these days. If you want to pay bills
online, order stuff, etc, then you'll need a javascript-enabled
browser. Indeed, though it used to be that there was an option to
disable it, I haven't seen that in a very long time. It's just a tool.
&, as w/any tool, it can be put to good & bad uses.

On 10/29/18, zahra <nasrinkhaksar3@gmail.com> wrote:
i believe javascript is the source of different kind of problems!
i wish that javascript will be removed in the near future from internet.
from vulnerabilities until heavy usage of system resources and heating
my laptop and dynamic web pages and conflict and accessibility
problems for screen readers!
i really hate dynamic web pages and updating web browsers!
i wish static web pages with specific version of browsers without updating.
as you know, i never use firefox quantum and firefox 52 is sufficient
for me forever.

On 10/29/18, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
It appears to me that this needs further discussion and clarification. I
don't know if this is still the case, but in the past, quite some time
ago,
I could stop most repetitions of clickable from being spoken by turning
JAVA
scripts off. I could also, as I recall, stop most erroneous clickable
announcements by doing so. I'd have to experiment with this to see if my
memory is correct. And, as I said, I don't know if more current versions
of
NVDA have this repetition and erroneous clickable announcements. But if
they do, I think that is likely what is generating most of the negative
messages received concerning clickable. I am not assuming anything, I
haven't looked at this for a long time, I have clickable off, and I don't
have a system that can run recent NVDA versions, but I'm raising the
question about whether NVDA is misreading something in JAVA script that
is
causing these problems. I don't recall either erroneous clickable
announcements in JAWS nore multiple repetitions of clickable before the
text
or control is read. This, I hope, will be further discussed by those
using
the current NVDA.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Gene
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2018 2:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October


You can turn it off. You can find the setting in documeht formatting.
if
you need information about that dialog, we will provide it.

I don't have clickable on. Iff I am on a site and I don't see a way,
such
as a link, a button, or another control that is read, to do something,
then
I press enter on the text that logically is applicable, if any. While it
may be that rarely, I might want to turn clickable on to be sure about
whether there is or isn't a clickable control to do what I want, it is so
rare, that I don't remember if or when I did so. Logic and inference is
important in using the Internet well.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Jackie
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2018 11:54 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October


Well, I actually responded to the email that was provided for a
response in the request. I indicated that for me, there have been
countless times when an object was clickable, but because the web
developer in question didn't make it a link or a button, it would be
impossible to know that unless NVDA said "clickable". I did also
indicate that saying it multiple times was beyond annoying.
Additionally, I also suggested that there be a way to toggle the
feature on or off, per user preference. It's incorrect to assume that
because folks didn't respond positively on list that no one likes the
feature. I rather suspect instead that many of us simply used the
private email w/which we were provided.

If web authors would develop according to WCAG, there would be no need
for the feature. They don't; thus, there is. If you're fortunate
enough to visit only those websites that adhere to those standards,
then great. If on the other hand, you find yourself visiting a
multiplicity of sites, many of which do not conform to accessibility
guidelines, then it helps to know that an element can be interacted
with, because all indications are that it cannot.

They were looking for positive responses because they simply wanted to
see if anyone found it useful, & perhaps get an estimate of how many
that might be. They didn't want to just axe a feature because some
folks commented negatively on it. Those who find things useful usually
don't comment, so all they're bound to hear is the negative ones.

On 10/28/18, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't keep up with current versions of NVDA because I don't have
machines
they are compatible with. In the old days, NVDA used to say clickable
much
too often, repeating it many times before it read the text that was
supposed
to be clickable. Often, this text wasn't actually clickable. I don't
know
that because I tried clicking on everything announced as such, but the
context made it obvious. Has this problem been corrected? I would
think
that if it has and only clickable items are announced, this wouldn't be
a
problem. But perhaps one reason you get so much negative reaction is if
the
problem hasn't been corrected.

But why limit the inquiry to clickable items? Why are block quotes
announced by default and lists. I don't know how others find such
information being announced by default but to me, it's clutter. What
about
landmarks? I never use the landmark announcement but I don't know if
they
are useful. I also wonder whether, even if they are useful, they
discourage
people from learning how to navigate sites without them efficiently. My
concern is that if you become too dependent on special accessibility
accomodations, where a lot of sites don't have them, it may discourage
many
people from using sites that don't. I started using the Internet before
any
of these accomodations but when discussions such as this come up, I
wonder
about such questions.

There may be things I don't know such as that a lot of smaller sites use
landmarks and use them properly but I don't know if that's the case and
I
suspect that a lot of sites don't use them at all.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Mary Otten
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2018 9:31 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October


Remember, your request was only four people to reply with positive. How
is
it used for? I for instance don’t like it and find it worthless. But I
did
not respond, because you were looking for positive responses. So the
fact
that you got 50-50 tells me that there are a lot more who don’t like it
then
those who do. Those of us who respected your request are screwed. Get
rid
of
it! Or at least make it possible for those of us who have not found it
helpful to shut it off.

Mary



On Oct 28, 2018, at 6:54 PM, Quentin Christensen <quentin@nvaccess.org>
wrote:


Re clickable, the comments from everyone seem divided between "it can
be
really useful so I leave it on" and "it's really annoying and not useful
most of the time, get rid of it". I think it perhaps also depends on
the
sites you visit and how readily you turn out of superfluous information
being read. A very good example of that people are much more likely to
complain about what doesn't work than praise what does - I think all the
feedback we had received on clickable previously had been about how
annoying
it was and that it read clickable when it really wasn't helpful.


Re predictive text Adriani, I must admit I hadn't used it myself until
someone asked last week and I tried it out. I think if you are
proficient
with a physical keyboard, it's probably not so useful for an average
user
on
PC where you are most likely already typing on a physical keyboard. But
it
could definitely be a lifesaver for some users so it's good that it's
there.




On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 5:50 PM Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io
<bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:

Its better than saying nothing. Sometimes in the shark these are
also
ambiguous, one suspects because the info exposed on what they do is
incomplete and so one has to just indicate they are there to
supposedly
do
something. I often wonder at the logic of page design when nobody
knows

quite what they will get when they use a control.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adriani Botez" <adriani.botez@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2018 10:57 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October


Hey Quentin,



I am replying to this e-mail after reading the last in-process.



For me at least, saying “clickable” does not help in deducting if I
have
to
do it or not. In fact, most times “clickable” does not perform an
action
at
all when pressing enter on it.



Regarding profiles, i am using profiles for MS Excel, MS Word, MS
Outlook
and Firefox. At work I am using profiles for SAP web based services
because
they have thousants of tables which in fact are only layout tables
but
NVDA
recognize them as normal tables. So I have to use profiles to
disable
tables
because otherwise I get crazy when navigating through the complex
pages.



Windows 10 predictible text is a new function to me, but I find it
more

useful for tablests and smartfones. I don’t use it on normal
keyboards.
But
I guess it is a very good feature for people with motoric
disabilities.





Best

Adriani





Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von
Quentin
Christensen
Gesendet: Freitag, 26. Oktober 2018 08:20
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October



Hi everyone,



This week's In-Process is out. Today, we have more information about
the

recently released NVDA 2018.3.2, a shout out to GlitchedVision for
his
innovative fundraiser, and not one but two quick tutorials - on
Configuration Profiles, & Predictive Text in Windows 10. Enjoy!



https://www.nvaccess.org/post/in-process-26th-october-2018/



Regards



Quentin.

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager



Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now
available:
<http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/



<http://www.nvaccess.org/> www.nvaccess.org

Facebook: <http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess>
http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess















--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/


www.nvaccess.org

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess





--
Remember! Friends Help Friends Be Cybersafe
Jackie McBride
Helping Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a Time
https://brighter-vision.com






--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali



--
Remember! Friends Help Friends Be Cybersafe
Jackie McBride
Helping Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a Time
https://brighter-vision.com


 

i disabled it easily by changing javascript.enabled in about:config
i really hate it and nvda 2017.2 does not work for me with this
feature enabled and even caused my keyboard lock and not responding
for some second or even sometimes one or two minutes!
2017.1 has not problem of locking keyboard, but its very slow and
makes my system very hot when javascript is enabled.

On 10/29/18, Jackie <abletec@gmail.com> wrote:
Javascript will very likely be around for a long time. Most webpages
depend on it to varying degrees these days. If you want to pay bills
online, order stuff, etc, then you'll need a javascript-enabled
browser. Indeed, though it used to be that there was an option to
disable it, I haven't seen that in a very long time. It's just a tool.
&, as w/any tool, it can be put to good & bad uses.

On 10/29/18, zahra <nasrinkhaksar3@gmail.com> wrote:
i believe javascript is the source of different kind of problems!
i wish that javascript will be removed in the near future from internet.
from vulnerabilities until heavy usage of system resources and heating
my laptop and dynamic web pages and conflict and accessibility
problems for screen readers!
i really hate dynamic web pages and updating web browsers!
i wish static web pages with specific version of browsers without
updating.
as you know, i never use firefox quantum and firefox 52 is sufficient
for me forever.

On 10/29/18, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
It appears to me that this needs further discussion and clarification.
I
don't know if this is still the case, but in the past, quite some time
ago,
I could stop most repetitions of clickable from being spoken by turning
JAVA
scripts off. I could also, as I recall, stop most erroneous clickable
announcements by doing so. I'd have to experiment with this to see if
my
memory is correct. And, as I said, I don't know if more current
versions
of
NVDA have this repetition and erroneous clickable announcements. But if
they do, I think that is likely what is generating most of the negative
messages received concerning clickable. I am not assuming anything, I
haven't looked at this for a long time, I have clickable off, and I
don't
have a system that can run recent NVDA versions, but I'm raising the
question about whether NVDA is misreading something in JAVA script that
is
causing these problems. I don't recall either erroneous clickable
announcements in JAWS nore multiple repetitions of clickable before the
text
or control is read. This, I hope, will be further discussed by those
using
the current NVDA.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Gene
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2018 2:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October


You can turn it off. You can find the setting in documeht formatting.
if
you need information about that dialog, we will provide it.

I don't have clickable on. Iff I am on a site and I don't see a way,
such
as a link, a button, or another control that is read, to do something,
then
I press enter on the text that logically is applicable, if any. While
it
may be that rarely, I might want to turn clickable on to be sure about
whether there is or isn't a clickable control to do what I want, it is
so
rare, that I don't remember if or when I did so. Logic and inference is
important in using the Internet well.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Jackie
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2018 11:54 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October


Well, I actually responded to the email that was provided for a
response in the request. I indicated that for me, there have been
countless times when an object was clickable, but because the web
developer in question didn't make it a link or a button, it would be
impossible to know that unless NVDA said "clickable". I did also
indicate that saying it multiple times was beyond annoying.
Additionally, I also suggested that there be a way to toggle the
feature on or off, per user preference. It's incorrect to assume that
because folks didn't respond positively on list that no one likes the
feature. I rather suspect instead that many of us simply used the
private email w/which we were provided.

If web authors would develop according to WCAG, there would be no need
for the feature. They don't; thus, there is. If you're fortunate
enough to visit only those websites that adhere to those standards,
then great. If on the other hand, you find yourself visiting a
multiplicity of sites, many of which do not conform to accessibility
guidelines, then it helps to know that an element can be interacted
with, because all indications are that it cannot.

They were looking for positive responses because they simply wanted to
see if anyone found it useful, & perhaps get an estimate of how many
that might be. They didn't want to just axe a feature because some
folks commented negatively on it. Those who find things useful usually
don't comment, so all they're bound to hear is the negative ones.

On 10/28/18, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't keep up with current versions of NVDA because I don't have
machines
they are compatible with. In the old days, NVDA used to say clickable
much
too often, repeating it many times before it read the text that was
supposed
to be clickable. Often, this text wasn't actually clickable. I don't
know
that because I tried clicking on everything announced as such, but the
context made it obvious. Has this problem been corrected? I would
think
that if it has and only clickable items are announced, this wouldn't be
a
problem. But perhaps one reason you get so much negative reaction is
if
the
problem hasn't been corrected.

But why limit the inquiry to clickable items? Why are block quotes
announced by default and lists. I don't know how others find such
information being announced by default but to me, it's clutter. What
about
landmarks? I never use the landmark announcement but I don't know if
they
are useful. I also wonder whether, even if they are useful, they
discourage
people from learning how to navigate sites without them efficiently.
My
concern is that if you become too dependent on special accessibility
accomodations, where a lot of sites don't have them, it may discourage
many
people from using sites that don't. I started using the Internet
before
any
of these accomodations but when discussions such as this come up, I
wonder
about such questions.

There may be things I don't know such as that a lot of smaller sites
use
landmarks and use them properly but I don't know if that's the case and
I
suspect that a lot of sites don't use them at all.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Mary Otten
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2018 9:31 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October


Remember, your request was only four people to reply with positive. How
is
it used for? I for instance don’t like it and find it worthless. But I
did
not respond, because you were looking for positive responses. So the
fact
that you got 50-50 tells me that there are a lot more who don’t like it
then
those who do. Those of us who respected your request are screwed. Get
rid
of
it! Or at least make it possible for those of us who have not found it
helpful to shut it off.

Mary



On Oct 28, 2018, at 6:54 PM, Quentin Christensen <quentin@nvaccess.org>
wrote:


Re clickable, the comments from everyone seem divided between "it can
be
really useful so I leave it on" and "it's really annoying and not
useful
most of the time, get rid of it". I think it perhaps also depends on
the
sites you visit and how readily you turn out of superfluous information
being read. A very good example of that people are much more likely to
complain about what doesn't work than praise what does - I think all
the
feedback we had received on clickable previously had been about how
annoying
it was and that it read clickable when it really wasn't helpful.


Re predictive text Adriani, I must admit I hadn't used it myself
until
someone asked last week and I tried it out. I think if you are
proficient
with a physical keyboard, it's probably not so useful for an average
user
on
PC where you are most likely already typing on a physical keyboard.
But
it
could definitely be a lifesaver for some users so it's good that it's
there.




On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 5:50 PM Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io
<bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:

Its better than saying nothing. Sometimes in the shark these are
also
ambiguous, one suspects because the info exposed on what they do is
incomplete and so one has to just indicate they are there to
supposedly
do
something. I often wonder at the logic of page design when nobody
knows

quite what they will get when they use a control.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adriani Botez" <adriani.botez@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2018 10:57 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October


Hey Quentin,



I am replying to this e-mail after reading the last in-process.



For me at least, saying “clickable” does not help in deducting if I
have
to
do it or not. In fact, most times “clickable” does not perform an
action
at
all when pressing enter on it.



Regarding profiles, i am using profiles for MS Excel, MS Word, MS
Outlook
and Firefox. At work I am using profiles for SAP web based services
because
they have thousants of tables which in fact are only layout tables
but
NVDA
recognize them as normal tables. So I have to use profiles to
disable
tables
because otherwise I get crazy when navigating through the complex
pages.



Windows 10 predictible text is a new function to me, but I find it
more

useful for tablests and smartfones. I don’t use it on normal
keyboards.
But
I guess it is a very good feature for people with motoric
disabilities.





Best

Adriani





Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von
Quentin
Christensen
Gesendet: Freitag, 26. Oktober 2018 08:20
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: [nvda] In-Process for 26th October



Hi everyone,



This week's In-Process is out. Today, we have more information
about
the

recently released NVDA 2018.3.2, a shout out to GlitchedVision for
his
innovative fundraiser, and not one but two quick tutorials - on
Configuration Profiles, & Predictive Text in Windows 10. Enjoy!



https://www.nvaccess.org/post/in-process-26th-october-2018/



Regards



Quentin.

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager



Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now
available:
<http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/



<http://www.nvaccess.org/> www.nvaccess.org

Facebook: <http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess>
http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess















--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now
available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/


www.nvaccess.org

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess





--
Remember! Friends Help Friends Be Cybersafe
Jackie McBride
Helping Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a Time
https://brighter-vision.com






--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali




--
Remember! Friends Help Friends Be Cybersafe
Jackie McBride
Helping Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a Time
https://brighter-vision.com



--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali