NVDA and ribbon menues


Don H
 

Running latest NVDA and Win 10 1809.

The old addage of teaching a old dog new tricks fits this situation.  Having great difficulty in using the ribbon while in file explorer.  Are there any tutorials as how to use such ribbons?

Thanks


hurrikennyandopo ...
 

Hi Don


I recorded this a while back it shows 2 different ways of navigating the ribbons but this is with word pad.


Same idea for the others.


It shows you both when it is expanded and not and what to do if it is the oposite to change it.


The drop box link is https://www.dropbox.com/s/buzysfwi895vdnj/navigating%20ribbons%20in%20wordpad.MP3?dl=0

I think there is also a written one done by the other Gene on my nvda tutorials learning the basics page on http://www.accessibilitycentral.net

hope they help.


Gene nz



On 2/11/2018 7:46 AM, Don H wrote:
Running latest NVDA and Win 10 1809.

The old addage of teaching a old dog new tricks fits this situation.  Having great difficulty in using the ribbon while in file explorer.  Are there any tutorials as how to use such ribbons?

Thanks






--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Gene
 

I prepared a tutorial teaching how to use ribbons a number of years ago.  I shall include it below my signature.  It doesn't teach use of ribbons in the Windows 10 interface but ribbons are ribbons.  Some people have problems understanding ribbons.  But most people learn them without too much trouble and some people learn them easily. 
 
Ribbons are organized differently than menus but they are similar in that they present information in an organized way.  To simplify, you move to a ribbon and tab and shift tab through it.  You move to a menu and up and down arrow through it.
 
Gene
 
I'll provide a brief tutorial based on what I wrote years ago of how to work with ribbons. 
 
I've added a little to it here.
 
I don't know how the organization of Windows has changed in Windows 10 but this description should allow you to look through the Windows ribbons, or any other ribbons, and see how things are organized. 
 
First, I'll discuss a structure found in later versions of Windows that you need to know about-- the split button. 
One thing you will see as you look around ribbons and in other places in Windows are split buttons. A split button often allows you to see more options than just the default action.  Let's take an example. 
Let's say you come across a split button that says shut down Windows.  If you press enter on that button, Windows will shut down.  That is the default action.  Split buttons often show more options if you either right arrow while on the button or down arrow.  As an example, if you are on the shut down split button, you can right arrow and a list of options will open.  the items in the list include sleep, hibernate, restart, and others.  You up or down arrow through the list or use the short cut commands you hear announced as you move through the list.  the letter shortcuts often take actions without pressing enter so be careful when using them, just as you are in menus. 
 
So, let's review.  You find a split button that says shut down.  If you press enter, the computer will shut down. If you right arrow, other options may be displayed.  Or if you down arrow, other options may be displayed.  A split button won't work with both methods.  One method, either right arrowing or down arrowing will do so if it can be done with the button.  Try both methods if you don't know which one might work.  If you are on a tool bar which extends across the screen from left to right, down arrowing will open additional options.  If you think about this, it makes sense.  If you are in a menu, down arrowing will move you to the next item in the menu.  So you right arrow on the split button to cause it to display more options.  In a tool bar that extends across the screen from left to right, right arrowing will move you to the next item in the tool bar.  So you down arrow when on the split button to cause it to display more options.  But some tool bars run up and down the screen, as menus do.  And at times, you may not be sure which way a structure extends on screen.  So, as I said, if you are not sure or don't know, try both methods of causing the split button to display more options.  Often, one of them will work. If you open the options a split button offers and don't want to work with them, arrow in the opposite direction to move out of them.  For example, if you right arrowed to open more options, left arrow. 
Some split buttons don't do anything when you right arrow or down arrow.  In that case, open them with alt down arrow.  Then tab through the additional options.  I've almost never worked in this way with split buttons but if you want to close a split button, try alt up arrow if you've used alt down arrow to open it.
 
Now, to ribbons themselves.
 
Regarding ribbons, much of the complaining about them is not warranted if you understand how they work and how to use short cut commands effectively and efficiently.  and I would strongly recommend against using the JAWS virtual menus, no matter what the JAWS training material says about ribbons being difficult to use.  the training material is just plain wrong and using virtual menus, you will be unnecessarily dependent on one screen-reader.  There are other disadvantages to using them which I won't go into here.
 
Try looking at ribbons and doing what is described below in wordpad.  Everyone with Windows 7 has Wordpad on their machine.  Wordpad provides a good environment to look at and practice working with ribbons.  
 
The essence of working with ribbons is this:
Press alt to move to the upper ribbon.
You will probably be on an item that says home tab. Items on the upper ribbon are announced as tabs such as home tab, view tab, etc. 
To see what ribbons are available, right or left arrow repeatedly to move through the ribbons.  Move in one
direction to move through all of them, just as you would to move through all the menus.
 
For this demonstration, just so we are all doing the same thing, move with the right arrow. When you get back to where you started, you can keep right arrowing to move through the items again, if you wish.  You can move through all the items as many times as you want. Or you can move with the left arrow whenever you want to move in the opposite direction.  
 
Stop on view.  Then start tabbing.  You will move through all items in what is called the lower ribbon that are in the view ribbon. 
 
In other words you tab to see the items in a ribbon once you move to it.  Tab moves you forward through the items, shift tab moves you backword.
So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow. 
 
Many items in the lower ribbon are buttons.  Use either the space bar or enter to activate the button. You may find a button that opens a menu and if you press enter or the space bar, you will then be in a menu.
 
Each time you move to an item, you will hear the short cut command to work with that item. 
But JAWS has a bug and you often won't.  To hear the short cut, use the command JAWS key tab.  If you are using the default JAWS key, it is either insert.
 
Try tabbing to an item in a Wordpad ribbon and using the command insert tab.  You will hear some extraneous information.  The last thing you will hear is the short cut sequence.  You can repeat the information by repeating the command as often as you want.
 
Let's look at an item which is usually called the application menu.  Return to the main program window in wordpad by closing the ribbons.  You can either press escape repeatedly, if necessary, or you can press alt once.  Now, open the ribbons again with alt. 
Start right arrowing until you get to the application menu.
You will hear application menu and then something like button drop down grid.  Never mind drop down grid.  It's a description you don't have to worry about.  The important things are that you are on a button and at the application menu.  Press enter or the space bar to activate the button.  Activating the button opens the menu.  Start down arrowing. you will hear all the short cut commands necessary to open an item or take an action.  When you got to the menu item, you heard alt f.  When you open the menu and move through it, you will hear all the letters announced.  for example, if you down arrow to save as, you will hear alt f a.  that means that, when you are in the main program window, you open the menu as you always did, alt f, then type a.  Alt f opens the menau and a then opens save as.  Ribbon programs have one menu and you should look through it.  Many important and common commands and interfaces such as options may be there.  By options, I mean the kind of options interface you used to find in the tools menu.
 
Now the we have seen the menu, let's look at the ribbons structure some more.
To review, and add more information, as you have seen, you can move to the ribbon interface with alt.  Then right and left arrow, just as you would move from menu to menu. 
You can also move to a ribbon using alt and a letter.  So, alt h takes you to the home ribbon.  Alt v takes you to the view ribbon, etc.  Once you are on the ribbon you want to work with, tab to move forward through the items in a ribbon.  Shift tab to move back through the items.  So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow.
Ribbons are divided into categories which you will hear announced as you tab.  for example, in an e-mail program, a ribbon may have a category named respond.  You may hear this announced as respond tool bar.  As you tab, you will hear commands such as reply and forward in the respond category.  When you hear a category announced, don't tab until you hear everything spoken.  You will miss the first command in the category if you do.  I'm talking about working with an unfamiliar ribbon. 
there are often many more commands and items in a ribbon than in a menu.  So memorize command sequences for items you know you will use regularly. 
As I said, there are different categories in ribbons to help organize items.  You can quickly jump from category to category in a ribbon to help you see if there is a category you want to look through. 
Move to a ribbon in Wordpad.  For example, alt h for hhome or alt v for view.
Then repeatedly issue the command control right arrow to move forward from category to category and control left arrow to move back.  When you get to a category you want to hear the items in, start tabbing.  Of course, you can shift tab to move back. 
 
Open a ribbon in Wordpad and tab through it to see how it is organized by moving through it. 
Then use control right arrow to move by category and tab to see what is in a category. 
 
Commands such as control o, control n, control s, control r, etc. are mostly retained in programs
that use ribbons, though you won't hear them announced. If you don't already know them, you'll have to find them in ways such as by looking at a list of keyboard commands for the program.  Such lists are often available in the help for the program. If you already know the commands from having used an older version of the program, most or perhaps even all of the commands you know will work.  


Jason White
 

I recommend http://vip.chowo.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/jaws/File-Explorer-10-Guide.html

Despite the mention of JAWS, the Windows commands are of course all equally usable with NVDA.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Don H
Sent: Thursday, November 1, 2018 2:47 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues

Running latest NVDA and Win 10 1809.

The old addage of teaching a old dog new tricks fits this situation. Having great difficulty in using the ribbon while in file explorer. Are there any tutorials as how to use such ribbons?

Thanks


 

Using the Ribbon Interface in Windows via the Keyboard
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

The terrible state of public education has paid huge dividends in ignorance.  Huge.  We now have a country that can be told blatant lies — easily checkable, blatant lies — and I’m not talking about the covert workings of the CIA. When we have a terrorist attack, on September 11, 2001 with 19 men — 15 of them are Saudis — and five minutes later the whole country thinks they’re from Iraq — how can you have faith in the public? This is an easily checkable fact. The whole country is like the O.J. Simpson jurors.

      ~ Fran Lebowitz in Ruminator Magazine interview with Susannah McNeely (Aug/Sept 2005)

 

 


Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

This is a huge can of worms. I personally feel that they are dire for blind users, but some people on here think that once you grasp the concept they are in fact easy.
Its a classic case of the way your brain visualises the concepts.
I did notice Jaws can be set to pretend they are normal menus, but my feeling here is that since you can use a simple add on to alter them ie ribbon remover, then I see no reason why Microsoft do not offer the themselves, but in a recent interview with Jenny at Microsoft she merely said, Embrace the ribbon, which I took to mean they are dogmatically against it.
Bah humbug I say.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Don H" <lmddh50@adams.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2018 6:46 PM
Subject: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues


Running latest NVDA and Win 10 1809.

The old addage of teaching a old dog new tricks fits this situation. Having great difficulty in using the ribbon while in file explorer. Are there any tutorials as how to use such ribbons?

Thanks




Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

I present this little zip file. It carries no warranteeeeeee of any kind, and if it works for you every windows 10 major update will need it to be run again.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/e33qzsnvik9ebhe/RibbonDisabler.zip?dl=1

Let us know how it goes. It only does Windows Exploder though nothing else.
Brian


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----- Original Message -----
From: "Don H" <lmddh50@adams.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2018 6:46 PM
Subject: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues


Running latest NVDA and Win 10 1809.

The old addage of teaching a old dog new tricks fits this situation. Having great difficulty in using the ribbon while in file explorer. Are there any tutorials as how to use such ribbons?

Thanks




Don H
 

Please explain the ribbon remover please.  Is this a Windows addon Chrome addon or what?

On 11/2/2018 3:36 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
This is a huge can of worms. I personally feel that they are dire for blind users, but some people on here think that once you grasp the concept they are in fact easy.
Its a classic case of the way your brain visualises the concepts.
I did notice Jaws can be set to pretend they are normal menus, but my feeling here is that since you can use a simple add on to alter them  ie ribbon remover, then I see no reason why Microsoft do not offer the themselves, but in a recent interview with Jenny at Microsoft she merely said, Embrace the ribbon, which I took to mean  they are dogmatically against it.
Bah humbug I say.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message ----- From: "Don H" <lmddh50@adams.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2018 6:46 PM
Subject: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues


Running latest NVDA and Win 10 1809.

The old addage of teaching a old dog new tricks fits this situation. Having great difficulty in using the ribbon while in file explorer. Are there any tutorials as how to use such ribbons?

Thanks








 

On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 04:36 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
Embrace the ribbon,
It's been around for over a decade now.  It is the Microsoft standard.  The endless fight against the ribbon makes no sense; learning to work with the computing environment, as presented, does.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

The terrible state of public education has paid huge dividends in ignorance.  Huge.  We now have a country that can be told blatant lies — easily checkable, blatant lies — and I’m not talking about the covert workings of the CIA. When we have a terrorist attack, on September 11, 2001 with 19 men — 15 of them are Saudis — and five minutes later the whole country thinks they’re from Iraq — how can you have faith in the public? This is an easily checkable fact. The whole country is like the O.J. Simpson jurors.

      ~ Fran Lebowitz in Ruminator Magazine interview with Susannah McNeely (Aug/Sept 2005)

 

 


Sarah k Alawami
 

Agreed. I also hate the ribbon, but I had to learn it in my computer class in 2008. My teacher also didn't know what he was doing as he got that version of word the day before so we were both learning together. So learn it or get left behind is what I say. I'm getting gleft behind. Lol!

On 2 Nov 2018, at 6:18, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 04:36 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
Embrace the ribbon,
It's been around for over a decade now.  It is the Microsoft standard.  The endless fight against the ribbon makes no sense; learning to work with the computing environment, as presented, does.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

The terrible state of public education has paid huge dividends in ignorance.  Huge.  We now have a country that can be told blatant lies — easily checkable, blatant lies — and I’m not talking about the covert workings of the CIA. When we have a terrorist attack, on September 11, 2001 with 19 men — 15 of them are Saudis — and five minutes later the whole country thinks they’re from Iraq — how can you have faith in the public? This is an easily checkable fact. The whole country is like the O.J. Simpson jurors.

      ~ Fran Lebowitz in Ruminator Magazine interview with Susannah McNeely (Aug/Sept 2005)

 

 


Gene
 

You have a problem, as you said .  Most people learn ribbons without a lot of trouble.  It may take them a little time but if taught properly, they don't find them a major problem.  You are discouraging people from learning ribbons. 
 
I am skeptical and suspicious of ribbon removing programs.  I suspect you lose functionality when you try to force one interface to become another interface.  I hope people comment on that. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 3:36 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues

This is a huge can of worms. I personally feel that they are dire for blind
users, but some people on here think that once you grasp the concept they
are in fact easy.
 Its a classic case of the way your brain visualises the concepts.
 I did notice Jaws can be set to pretend they are normal menus, but my
feeling here is that since you can use a simple add on to alter them  ie
ribbon remover, then I see no reason why Microsoft do not offer the
themselves, but in a recent interview with Jenny at Microsoft she merely
said, Embrace the ribbon, which I took to mean  they are dogmatically
against it.
 Bah humbug I say.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don H" <lmddh50@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2018 6:46 PM
Subject: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues


> Running latest NVDA and Win 10 1809.
>
> The old addage of teaching a old dog new tricks fits this situation.
> Having great difficulty in using the ribbon while in file explorer. Are
> there any tutorials as how to use such ribbons?
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
>
>




Gene
 

I'm not saying you shouldn't discuss these things, but you make it sound as though a lot of people will have serious problems.  That is what I disagree with.  and I said, when properly taught.  There is a lot of inferior teaching about ribbons.  And I suspect the reason the Microsoft representative said to embrace ribbons is for the reason I said, that you lose functionality or features when you try to force ribbons to be menus.  But others will have to comment on that.
 
As far as the JAWS attempt to force ribbons to be menus, see this article.  It discusses the inconveniences and problems encountered when you use the JAWS system.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 3:36 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues

This is a huge can of worms. I personally feel that they are dire for blind
users, but some people on here think that once you grasp the concept they
are in fact easy.
 Its a classic case of the way your brain visualises the concepts.
 I did notice Jaws can be set to pretend they are normal menus, but my
feeling here is that since you can use a simple add on to alter them  ie
ribbon remover, then I see no reason why Microsoft do not offer the
themselves, but in a recent interview with Jenny at Microsoft she merely
said, Embrace the ribbon, which I took to mean  they are dogmatically
against it.
 Bah humbug I say.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don H" <lmddh50@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2018 6:46 PM
Subject: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues


> Running latest NVDA and Win 10 1809.
>
> The old addage of teaching a old dog new tricks fits this situation.
> Having great difficulty in using the ribbon while in file explorer. Are
> there any tutorials as how to use such ribbons?
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
>
>




 

On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 11:11 AM, Gene wrote:
I am skeptical and suspicious of ribbon removing programs.  I suspect you lose functionality when you try to force one interface to become another interface.  I hope people comment on that. 
I honestly can't say whether you lose functionality or not, simply because there are options in what one can get for an "interface changer" as well as the fact that "losing functionality" is definitely based on what a given individual generally uses.  There are scads of bells and whistles that have been added over the years that I, or any given person, just don't use and we don't care one whit whether they're available to us or not.

The above being said, it makes no sense to keep shoe-horning OS operating environments into looking like something that was an ancestor.  Eventually that breaks, but more importantly it quite literally hobbles one's ability to use the OS as the OS is.   Unless you are someone who will never, ever touch another computer, anywhere, that runs the same OS as yours does you will be left wandering in the proverbial forest when you actually have to deal with the user interface as designed and shipped.  There is no good reason to do that, period.

Nothing is so constant as change, and as far as Windows 10 goes it's far more like Windows 7 and earlier in the overall UI than Windows 8 or 8.1 were.  I have not yet had a blind or visually impaired client go through an extended "tearing my hair out" period when they transitioned to Windows 10.   You can do most tweaks within the UI provided to make it feel very familiar without actually putting the mask that is an interface changer on top of it.

The fact of the matter is, blind or not, when it comes to technology you either go with the flow or you eventually get drowned.  And those that most actively resist the flow tend to get dragged under first.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

The terrible state of public education has paid huge dividends in ignorance.  Huge.  We now have a country that can be told blatant lies — easily checkable, blatant lies — and I’m not talking about the covert workings of the CIA. When we have a terrorist attack, on September 11, 2001 with 19 men — 15 of them are Saudis — and five minutes later the whole country thinks they’re from Iraq — how can you have faith in the public? This is an easily checkable fact. The whole country is like the O.J. Simpson jurors.

      ~ Fran Lebowitz in Ruminator Magazine interview with Susannah McNeely (Aug/Sept 2005)

 

 


Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Brian V,

 

I couldn't agree more. The ribbon has been around since 2007. I think that's correct but if I'm wrong, someone please jump in and correct me. We have to learn to roll with the punches as they say or get left out in the cold so to speak.

 

Rosemarie

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, November 2, 2018 6:19 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues

 

On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 04:36 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:

Embrace the ribbon,

It's been around for over a decade now.  It is the Microsoft standard.  The endless fight against the ribbon makes no sense; learning to work with the computing environment, as presented, does.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

The terrible state of public education has paid huge dividends in ignorance.  Huge.  We now have a country that can be told blatant lies — easily checkable, blatant lies — and I’m not talking about the covert workings of the CIA. When we have a terrorist attack, on September 11, 2001 with 19 men — 15 of them are Saudis — and five minutes later the whole country thinks they’re from Iraq — how can you have faith in the public? This is an easily checkable fact. The whole country is like the O.J. Simpson jurors.

      ~ Fran Lebowitz in Ruminator Magazine interview with Susannah McNeely (Aug/Sept 2005)

 

 


Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Its a third party config file for windows. I'm sure its explained in the zip file, however I have not tried it on the latest incarnation of windows 10.
You just have to suck it and see. bBest create a restore point befor using it just in case you do not like it.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Don H" <lmddh50@adams.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 1:00 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues


Please explain the ribbon remover please. Is this a Windows addon Chrome addon or what?

On 11/2/2018 3:36 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
This is a huge can of worms. I personally feel that they are dire for blind users, but some people on here think that once you grasp the concept they are in fact easy.
Its a classic case of the way your brain visualises the concepts.
I did notice Jaws can be set to pretend they are normal menus, but my feeling here is that since you can use a simple add on to alter them ie ribbon remover, then I see no reason why Microsoft do not offer the themselves, but in a recent interview with Jenny at Microsoft she merely said, Embrace the ribbon, which I took to mean they are dogmatically against it.
Bah humbug I say.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Don H" <lmddh50@adams.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2018 6:46 PM
Subject: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues


Running latest NVDA and Win 10 1809.

The old addage of teaching a old dog new tricks fits this situation. Having great difficulty in using the ribbon while in file explorer. Are there any tutorials as how to use such ribbons?

Thanks









Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

I disagree, simply because there has been an endless fight against it. I have sighted friends who find it very irritating, yet just like many big companies they will not listen to their customers and make it a choice in their software. How many third party programs use a ribbon, answer me that?
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues


On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 04:36 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:


Embrace the ribbon,
It's been around for over a decade now. It is the Microsoft standard. The endless fight against the ribbon makes no sense; learning to work with the computing environment, as presented, does.

--

Brian *-* Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763

*The terrible state of public education has paid huge dividends in ignorance. Huge. We now have a country that can be told blatant lies — easily checkable, blatant lies — and I’m not talking about the covert workings of the CIA. When we have a terrorist attack, on September 11, 2001 with 19 men — 15 of them are Saudis — and five minutes later the whole country thinks they’re from Iraq — how can you have faith in the public? This is an easily checkable fact. The whole country is like the O.J. Simpson jurors.*

~ Fran Lebowitz in Ruminator Magazine interview with Susannah McNeely (Aug/Sept 2005)


Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

It started on Word 2007. It was hated then, it is hated now, and you seldom see any third party software using a Ribbon, even the latest Firefox is using old style menus.
Just cos they are so dogmatic in not wanting to offer an option when its clearly possible is no reason to accept it.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Rosemarie Chavarria" <knitqueen2007@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues


Hi, Brian V,



I couldn't agree more. The ribbon has been around since 2007. I think that's correct but if I'm wrong, someone please jump in and correct me. We have to learn to roll with the punches as they say or get left out in the cold so to speak.



Rosemarie







From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, November 2, 2018 6:19 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues



On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 04:36 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:

Embrace the ribbon,

It's been around for over a decade now. It is the Microsoft standard. The endless fight against the ribbon makes no sense; learning to work with the computing environment, as presented, does.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763

The terrible state of public education has paid huge dividends in ignorance. Huge. We now have a country that can be told blatant lies — easily checkable, blatant lies — and I’m not talking about the covert workings of the CIA. When we have a terrorist attack, on September 11, 2001 with 19 men — 15 of them are Saudis — and five minutes later the whole country thinks they’re from Iraq — how can you have faith in the public? This is an easily checkable fact. The whole country is like the O.J. Simpson jurors.

~ Fran Lebowitz in Ruminator Magazine interview with Susannah McNeely (Aug/Sept 2005)


Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Not noticed it myself. But it is my view and yours is yours. I merely point at other pieces of software not by Microsoft.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues


You have a problem, as you said . Most people learn ribbons without a lot of trouble. It may take them a little time but if taught properly, they don't find them a major problem. You are discouraging people from learning ribbons.

I am skeptical and suspicious of ribbon removing programs. I suspect you lose functionality when you try to force one interface to become another interface. I hope people comment on that.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 3:36 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues


This is a huge can of worms. I personally feel that they are dire for blind
users, but some people on here think that once you grasp the concept they
are in fact easy.
Its a classic case of the way your brain visualises the concepts.
I did notice Jaws can be set to pretend they are normal menus, but my
feeling here is that since you can use a simple add on to alter them ie
ribbon remover, then I see no reason why Microsoft do not offer the
themselves, but in a recent interview with Jenny at Microsoft she merely
said, Embrace the ribbon, which I took to mean they are dogmatically
against it.
Bah humbug I say.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Don H" <lmddh50@adams.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2018 6:46 PM
Subject: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues


Running latest NVDA and Win 10 1809.

The old addage of teaching a old dog new tricks fits this situation.
Having great difficulty in using the ribbon while in file explorer. Are
there any tutorials as how to use such ribbons?

Thanks





 

On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 04:23 PM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
Just cos they are so dogmatic in not wanting to offer an option when its clearly possible is no reason to accept it.
Uh, yes, it is.   If you think that Microsoft, or any software maker, that's been using the same UI for over a decade is going to change it because some small minority hates it then I have some oceanfront property in Omaha to offer you.

Don Quixote showed more common sense than those that still rail against the ribbon interface rather than learning how to use it.  It's just a menu that works slightly differently.

And this is coming from someone who did, and still does, like conventional menus better.  I just know that the ribbon ship sailed, and sailed long ago.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

The terrible state of public education has paid huge dividends in ignorance.  Huge.  We now have a country that can be told blatant lies — easily checkable, blatant lies — and I’m not talking about the covert workings of the CIA. When we have a terrorist attack, on September 11, 2001 with 19 men — 15 of them are Saudis — and five minutes later the whole country thinks they’re from Iraq — how can you have faith in the public? This is an easily checkable fact. The whole country is like the O.J. Simpson jurors.

      ~ Fran Lebowitz in Ruminator Magazine interview with Susannah McNeely (Aug/Sept 2005)

 

 


Gene
 

If they are so hated, then see the following discussion and account for the fact that I read perhaps thirty messages in the thread and no one objects to ribbons.  Microsoft is changing the design of ribbons in the Office Suite.  They are simplifying them in some way.  In this discussion, some people don't like the change, some people think it should be optional and some people like it.  But in all the messages I read, not one person objected to ribbons themselves.
 
Also, people are more likely to complain if they dislike something.  Of course some people don't like ribbons, but your sample, some friends or people you know, isn't eeven remotely a proper survey from which to draw such conclusions. 
 
I assume by saying it is hated, and it was hated that you mean most people hate ribbons.  That is not a properly supported statement.
 
Also, a lot of other programs are nowhere nearly as complex as the programs in the Office Suite.  So, since people don't like change and since there isn't much benefit to switching to ribbons this wasn't done.  You don't know what might have happened if most programs were this complex.  The ribbon allows the user to see a lot more items much more quickly and efficiently.  So your argument about other programs not adopting ribbons is not properly supported as to why this is the case.  More simple programs don't benefit and why change something when there is no benefit are much better explanations than a putative universal or nearly universal hatred of ribbons.
 
I'm saying they are much better explanations without proper evidence supporting any conclusion.  If you can find proper good supporting evidence for your assertion, that's different but as of now, your statements are unsupported and appear to be incorrect.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 3:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues

It started on Word 2007. It was hated then, it is hated now, and you seldom
see any third party software using a Ribbon, even the latest Firefox is
using  old style menus.
 Just cos they are so dogmatic in not wanting to offer an option when its
clearly possible is no reason to accept it.
 Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Rosemarie Chavarria" <knitqueen2007@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues


Hi, Brian V,



I couldn't agree more. The ribbon has been around since 2007. I think that's
correct but if I'm wrong, someone please jump in and correct me. We have to
learn to roll with the punches as they say or get left out in the cold so to
speak.



Rosemarie







From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian
Vogel
Sent: Friday, November 2, 2018 6:19 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues



On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 04:36 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:

Embrace the ribbon,

It's been around for over a decade now.  It is the Microsoft standard.  The
endless fight against the ribbon makes no sense; learning to work with the
computing environment, as presented, does.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763

The terrible state of public education has paid huge dividends in ignorance.
Huge.  We now have a country that can be told blatant lies — easily
checkable, blatant lies — and I’m not talking about the covert workings of
the CIA. When we have a terrorist attack, on September 11, 2001 with 19
men — 15 of them are Saudis — and five minutes later the whole country
thinks they’re from Iraq — how can you have faith in the public? This is an
easily checkable fact. The whole country is like the O.J. Simpson jurors.

      ~ Fran Lebowitz in Ruminator Magazine interview with Susannah McNeely
(Aug/Sept 2005)