Date
1 - 20 of 53
Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet
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Tony Malykh
Hello NVDA users
Today I am introducing TextNav add-on for NVDA - a better way to browse Internet for the blind! Have you ever felt that browsing new pages is frustrating when you couldn't find the content on the page? Try TextNav - it will find the right content for you in a single keystroke! TextNav is easy to use. Listen to a quick demo (7minutes long audio): https://soundcloud.com/user-977282820/textnav-promo Here is the link to download TextNav: https://addons.nvda-project.org/files/get.php?file=textnav TextNav on github: https://github.com/mltony/nvda-text-nav/ TextNav keystrokes: * Alt+Shift+Down: Find next paragraph with text. * Alt+Shift+Up: Find previous paragraph with text. I hope you enjoy it! Any suggestions are welcome! Sincerely, Tony Malykh
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Rosemarie Chavarria
This sounds really great. I have trouble reading some articles on the Dodgers site so this sounds like it'll be helpful.
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-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tony Malykh Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2018 4:25 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet Hello NVDA users Today I am introducing TextNav add-on for NVDA - a better way to browse Internet for the blind! Have you ever felt that browsing new pages is frustrating when you couldn't find the content on the page? Try TextNav - it will find the right content for you in a single keystroke! TextNav is easy to use. Listen to a quick demo (7minutes long audio): https://soundcloud.com/user-977282820/textnav-promo Here is the link to download TextNav: https://addons.nvda-project.org/files/get.php?file=textnav TextNav on github: https://github.com/mltony/nvda-text-nav/ TextNav keystrokes: * Alt+Shift+Down: Find next paragraph with text. * Alt+Shift+Up: Find previous paragraph with text. I hope you enjoy it! Any suggestions are welcome! Sincerely, Tony Malykh
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Ian Blackburn
It’s definitely worth using
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Using now Ian
On 3 Dec 2018, at 9:24 am, Rosemarie Chavarria <knitqueen2007@...> wrote:
This sounds really great. I have trouble reading some articles on the Dodgers site so this sounds like it'll be helpful. -----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tony Malykh Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2018 4:25 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet Hello NVDA users Today I am introducing TextNav add-on for NVDA - a better way to browse Internet for the blind! Have you ever felt that browsing new pages is frustrating when you couldn't find the content on the page? Try TextNav - it will find the right content for you in a single keystroke! TextNav is easy to use. Listen to a quick demo (7minutes long audio): https://soundcloud.com/user-977282820/textnav-promo Here is the link to download TextNav: https://addons.nvda-project.org/files/get.php?file=textnav TextNav on github: https://github.com/mltony/nvda-text-nav/ TextNav keystrokes: * Alt+Shift+Down: Find next paragraph with text. * Alt+Shift+Up: Find previous paragraph with text. I hope you enjoy it! Any suggestions are welcome! Sincerely, Tony Malykh
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Lino Morales <linomorales001@...>
Hey Tony. This sounds great! Going to download it now. I hate trying to finding the start of an article. I.E. the articles on the Washing Times. Thanks.
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Tony Malykh <anton.malykh@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2018 7:25:18 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet Hello NVDA users
Today I am introducing TextNav add-on for NVDA - a better way to browse Internet for the blind! Have you ever felt that browsing new pages is frustrating when you couldn't find the content on the page? Try TextNav - it will find the right content for you in a single keystroke! TextNav is easy to use. Listen to a quick demo (7minutes long audio): https://soundcloud.com/user-977282820/textnav-promo Here is the link to download TextNav: https://addons.nvda-project.org/files/get.php?file=textnav TextNav on github: https://github.com/mltony/nvda-text-nav/ TextNav keystrokes: * Alt+Shift+Down: Find next paragraph with text. * Alt+Shift+Up: Find previous paragraph with text. I hope you enjoy it! Any suggestions are welcome! Sincerely, Tony Malykh
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Gene
I have some comments on your demo for
TextNav. First, it isn't a substitute for learning the layout and
structures of web pages. If you use it before you know these things, you
may not learn to deal with other than straight reading situations
well.
Your claim that TextNav is thirteen times more efficient
when reading the page you used is not correct. it is thirteen times more
efficient if you don't know how to work with internet pages for reading
something like an article well, but you used a very inefficient method for your
comparison. You didn't start at the top of the page and use the skip
blocks of links command, the letter n. That gets you much much closer to
the article text because it skips most of the material on this page before the
article starts. On some pages, move by heading works better. On
some, move by skip nnavigation works bettter. on some, move by heading,
then using skip navigation links works better. On some, the find command
works better. You may not find an efficient way to work with a page until
you experiment. Once you do, you can use other article pages on that site
the same way. I want to be clear. I am
not saying that the add-on isn't very useful in skipping to the first sentence
of an article. But you don't hear the author, you may not hear
introductory material you might want to hear, and, if the article is more than
two or three paragraphs, it would be exceedingly tedious to issue the move to
next paragraph command repeatedly. For a somewhat long news article or a
somewhat long magazine article, I would imagine you might have to issue the
command twenty or thirty or forty or more times. The add-on needs an
automated mode for straight reading uninterruptedly.
And finally, your forum example
demonstrates a real deficiency in the add-on. It starts reading the text
of the first post and skips all information about who wrote it or how old it is
or any other information that might be of interest such as what rating the
person has for reliability or what his credentials are. Also, as you
continue to read and even if you know when a second post is beginning to be
read, you don't know who it is from. You can't be sure all the time, I
would think, who is commenting on comments for the first time or who is making
comments after making other comments. If the add-on is going to really be
useful in such an environment, it needs to do more than just skip through
entries by paragraph and not give you any information such as what I
described. I don't know if this can be done. I don't know if a
forums mode can be developed. That is f o r u m, as discussion forum, not
to be confused with what some people call forms mode in some browsers for
filling out forms.
In short, the add-on has
potential and I am not attempting to discourage its further development.
Critics mmay be your best friends in such situations. But I think the
add-on needs more work and refinement.
and one last thing I forgot to
mention earlier:
The crackling sound should be
able to be turned on and off. If I'm reading, I don't necessarily want to
hear extraneous sounds that notify me of something when I am reading an article
and am not interested in knowing such other information.
Gene
----- Original Message
-----
From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 6:25 PM
Subject: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet Today I am introducing TextNav add-on for NVDA - a better way to browse Internet for the blind! Have you ever felt that browsing new pages is frustrating when you couldn't find the content on the page? Try TextNav - it will find the right content for you in a single keystroke! TextNav is easy to use. Listen to a quick demo (7minutes long audio): https://soundcloud.com/user-977282820/textnav-promo Here is the link to download TextNav: https://addons.nvda-project.org/files/get.php?file=textnav TextNav on github: https://github.com/mltony/nvda-text-nav/ TextNav keystrokes: * Alt+Shift+Down: Find next paragraph with text. * Alt+Shift+Up: Find previous paragraph with text. I hope you enjoy it! Any suggestions are welcome! Sincerely, Tony Malykh
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Tony Malykh
Hi Gene,
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Thank you for your feedback, I think these are very reasonable questions you are raising. 1. I didn't claim that TextNav should replace the traditional way of browsing internet. It should rather augment it, be an addition to the standard navigation commands. 2. I see a lot of older blind people, for whom using computer is a burden. You can claim they should still learn the proper way. Or you can let them use the simpler way and let them enjoy what they can enjoy with TextNav. Some of them might never be able to learn the proper way - when you're 80 your brain doesn't work as well as when you're 20. It is a question of simpler tools versus more powerful tools. When cars with automatic transmission just appeared people were claiming they are bad because the drivers will never learn to use the clutch. Or when Windows appeared, some were claiming that it makes people stupid, because they never learn the command-line way of unix. Think of TextNav as a car with automatic transmission. And if you want to learn more powerful ways to navigate web pages, NVDA browse mode commands are always there. 3. I agree I might have slightly exaggerated about 13x speedup. But when I use TextNav myself, I can browse the web many times faster. 4. I never knew of the N command in browse mode. I just tried it on one web page and it seems to skip over the first paragraph of the article. So you would have to press it a few times, try to figure out if you are inside the article, and then go back up until you find the beginning. All that compared to a single keystroke of TextNav. 5. Crackling sound can be turned off or made quieter in the settings. 6. Often times I just want to read the article. I don't want to read the name of the author, date of publication, read the description of the image. Sometimes the article is interesting, and I might want to find the name of the author. Again, I can always do it with the standard browse mode command. But Most of the times I don't care. By skipping over these fields, you save a few seconds every time, but this accumulates over the day into a much more efficient browsing experience. Time will show how many NVDA users are like me not interested in the name of the author. 7. Same thing on the forum. I come to forums to solve my problems, like in my example, the problem with bluetooth headphones. I don't care whatsoever what's the nickname of the guy who asked the question, and I care much less who answered it. Best regards Tony
On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I have some comments on your demo for TextNav. First, it isn't a substitute
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Gene
I'll discuss some points:
First, something that I can comment on very
briefly. You only tried the skip blocks of links command on one site and,
evidently, on one article. I said that on some sites, one method works
better and on others, another does. The skip blocks of links command is an
important and useful command.
It may be that some people want a very simple way
to read articles on web pages and might have problems with using more complex
ways, as you say. My concern is that many people who can learn other ways
that would give them far more versatility and who wouldn't have trouble doing so
may be disuaded from doing so. So perhaps you should discuss just what
this is for and its limitations when you promote or describe it. It is a
reading add-on that allows you to skip to the start of an article and skip all
interruptions to the article such as groups of links to related
material, advertisements image descriptions, and perhaps other things I
haven't thought of. I think that making this clear and saying that those
who want to use the Internet in a wide variety of ways not involving mainly
reading, such as music sites and search sites, still need to learn and become
profficient in the other ways of web navigation NVDA offers. I don't
object to the add-on but there are many blind people who, because of a lack of
knowledge or self-confidence, severely limit themselves because they don't
realize or believe they can't do things they can do. I'm not sure just how
you would present the add-on but for a lot of people this would be an important
convenience but you are extremely limited if you don't know enough about web
page navigation to use search sites. Even many of the older people you are
discussing, I suspect, would want to know how to do basic searches.
When I read a forum, I want to find a solution but
what if I don't have any idea which might be more likely to work or come from a
more knowledgeable user? Being more knowledgeable doesn't necessarily mean
the information is better but I consider it to be information to be aware of,
whether someone is a high ranking member of a list, an employee of Microsoft or
some other relevant company or organization, and other information, if available
that may help me assess his reliability. None of this is heard in the
current way the add-on works.
and there are lots of other kinds of forums.
Some people like to hang out on political forums. they might well want to
know who is writing so they can see if the person is worth reading and either
skipping, skimming, or paying close attention to posts of certain authors.
there are an enormous number of forums. As I said, I don't know if the add-on can have some sort of forums mode. I don't have the technical knowledge to know. also, you didn't respond to what I said about
having an automatic reading mode. This is an important feature. Many
people may use the add-on to find the beginning of an article but may not
continue to use it to read the article because they don't want to issue a
command every few sentences while reading. If there were an automatic read
command, this would allow people to read as they would when using the speak to
end command. But the add-on would skip any extraneous material and read
the entire article without interruption or the need to repeatedly issue the read
command. .
And while this isn't a forum, consider something
like the op-ed pages of a newspaper. A bit of information may be provided
about guest columnists that may be useful to readers. If someone works at
a conservative think tank, his views may be very different than someone who
works for a liberal one. If the person works for a specific company, I
want to know that. That puts me on guard that his views may be defending
the company for which he works. If such information is routinely stripped
by the add-on, that is important.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 10:56 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to
browse Internet Thank you for your feedback, I think these are very reasonable questions you are raising. 1. I didn't claim that TextNav should replace the traditional way of browsing internet. It should rather augment it, be an addition to the standard navigation commands. 2. I see a lot of older blind people, for whom using computer is a burden. You can claim they should still learn the proper way. Or you can let them use the simpler way and let them enjoy what they can enjoy with TextNav. Some of them might never be able to learn the proper way - when you're 80 your brain doesn't work as well as when you're 20. It is a question of simpler tools versus more powerful tools. When cars with automatic transmission just appeared people were claiming they are bad because the drivers will never learn to use the clutch. Or when Windows appeared, some were claiming that it makes people stupid, because they never learn the command-line way of unix. Think of TextNav as a car with automatic transmission. And if you want to learn more powerful ways to navigate web pages, NVDA browse mode commands are always there. 3. I agree I might have slightly exaggerated about 13x speedup. But when I use TextNav myself, I can browse the web many times faster. 4. I never knew of the N command in browse mode. I just tried it on one web page and it seems to skip over the first paragraph of the article. So you would have to press it a few times, try to figure out if you are inside the article, and then go back up until you find the beginning. All that compared to a single keystroke of TextNav. 5. Crackling sound can be turned off or made quieter in the settings. 6. Often times I just want to read the article. I don't want to read the name of the author, date of publication, read the description of the image. Sometimes the article is interesting, and I might want to find the name of the author. Again, I can always do it with the standard browse mode command. But Most of the times I don't care. By skipping over these fields, you save a few seconds every time, but this accumulates over the day into a much more efficient browsing experience. Time will show how many NVDA users are like me not interested in the name of the author. 7. Same thing on the forum. I come to forums to solve my problems, like in my example, the problem with bluetooth headphones. I don't care whatsoever what's the nickname of the guy who asked the question, and I care much less who answered it. Best regards Tony On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote: > I have some comments on your demo for TextNav. First, it isn't a substitute > for learning the layout and structures of web pages. If you use it before > you know these things, you may not learn to deal with other than straight > reading situations well. > > Your claim that TextNav is thirteen times more efficient when reading the > page you used is not correct. it is thirteen times more efficient if you > don't know how to work with internet pages for reading something like an > article well, but you used a very inefficient method for your comparison. > You didn't start at the top of the page and use the skip blocks of links > command, the letter n. That gets you much much closer to the article text > because it skips most of the material on this page before the article > starts. On some pages, move by heading works better. On some, move by skip > nnavigation works bettter. on some, move by heading, then using skip > navigation links works better. On some, the find command works better. You > may not find an efficient way to work with a page until you experiment. > Once you do, you can use other article pages on that site the same way. > I want to be clear. I am not saying that the add-on isn't very useful in > skipping to the first sentence of an article. But you don't hear the > author, you may not hear introductory material you might want to hear, and, > if the article is more than two or three paragraphs, it would be exceedingly > tedious to issue the move to next paragraph command repeatedly. For a > somewhat long news article or a somewhat long magazine article, I would > imagine you might have to issue the command twenty or thirty or forty or > more times. The add-on needs an automated mode for straight reading > uninterruptedly. > > And finally, your forum example demonstrates a real deficiency in the > add-on. It starts reading the text of the first post and skips all > information about who wrote it or how old it is or any other information > that might be of interest such as what rating the person has for reliability > or what his credentials are. Also, as you continue to read and even if you > know when a second post is beginning to be read, you don't know who it is > from. You can't be sure all the time, I would think, who is commenting on > comments for the first time or who is making comments after making other > comments. If the add-on is going to really be useful in such an > environment, it needs to do more than just skip through entries by paragraph > and not give you any information such as what I described. I don't know if > this can be done. I don't know if a forums mode can be developed. That is > f o r u m, as discussion forum, not to be confused with what some people > call forms mode in some browsers for filling out forms. > > In short, the add-on has potential and I am not attempting to discourage its > further development. Critics mmay be your best friends in such situations. > But I think the add-on needs more work and refinement. > > and one last thing I forgot to mention earlier: > The crackling sound should be able to be turned on and off. If I'm reading, > I don't necessarily want to hear extraneous sounds that notify me of > something when I am reading an article and am not interested in knowing such > other information. > > Gene > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Tony Malykh > Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 6:25 PM > To: nvda@nvda.groups.io > Subject: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse > Internet > > > Hello NVDA users > > Today I am introducing TextNav add-on for NVDA - a better way to browse > Internet for the blind! > > Have you ever felt that browsing new pages is frustrating when you > couldn't find the content on the page? Try TextNav - it will find the > right content for you in a single keystroke! TextNav is easy to use. > Listen to a quick demo (7minutes long audio): > https://soundcloud.com/user-977282820/textnav-promo > > Here is the link to download TextNav: > https://addons.nvda-project.org/files/get.php?file=textnav > > TextNav on github: > https://github.com/mltony/nvda-text-nav/ > > TextNav keystrokes: > * Alt+Shift+Down: Find next paragraph with text. > * Alt+Shift+Up: Find previous paragraph with text. > > I hope you enjoy it! Any suggestions are welcome! > > Sincerely, > Tony Malykh > > > > > > > >
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Gerardo Corripio
What’s the difference between using this add-on, versus NVDA+Contrl+f to find somehting?
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Gera Enviado desde mi iPhone SE de Telcel
El 2 dic 2018, a la(s) 6:25 p. m., Tony Malykh <anton.malykh@...> escribió:
Hello NVDA users
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Antony Stone
Please could you add an explicit statement indicating the licence under which
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this add-on is made available? The source code is clearly available on Github, but is this under some version of GPL, a BSD licence, Apache...? Thanks, Antony.
On Monday 03 December 2018 at 01:25:18, Tony Malykh wrote:
Hello NVDA users --
"When you talk about Linux versus Windows, you're talking about which operating system is the best value for money and fit for purpose. That's a very basic decision customers can make if they have the information available to them. Quite frankly if we lose to Linux because our customers say it's better value for money, tough luck for us." - Steve Vamos, MD of Microsoft Australia Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me.
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Yes, that's a great addition to NVDA. Thanks Tony.
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Nevzat
On 12/3/18, Antony Stone <antony.stone@...> wrote:
Please could you add an explicit statement indicating the licence under
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Tony Malykh
Gene,
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It seems to me all your comments imply that I want to replace browse mode keystrokes with TextNav. I emphasize, that TextNav does not replace them, but it should be used in addition to them. I agree some webdsites can be navigated very well with browse mode commands. I agree that power users should learn all the browse mode commands. But: 1. TextNav is great for new websites. Even for power users, you can quickly find out the right content without in-depth study of the layout of this website. 2. TextNav is great for newbies. Instead of pushing students to learn twenty five browse mode commands, just show them a single TextNav keystroke, that can let you browse 90% of content on 90% of web sites. And then, if they feel like learning more powerful techniques, they can always learn all 25 of browse mode commands. I still remember myself trying to learn all these browse mode command like five years ago when I started to learn screenreadres, and it made me very frustrated - so much stuff to learn. Why don't teach students a single command on the first day to give them a teste of Internet, and then move on to more powerful commands? 3. Older people that I know don't use Internet, because "it's too complicated". I only try to solve this problem. 4. Again, I emphasize, that if you want to figure out the name of the user on the forum, or the author of an article, you can always jus go back to traditional browse mode commands. Again, TextNav is not a replacement and doesn't strive to be one. However, in my daily routine, 90% of the time I don't care about the author. I suspect many NVDA users are like me, but I might be wrong here. 5. Automatic reading mode is stil available as NVDA keystroke. It wouldn't skip over ads though. I might think of having automatic reading mode with TextNav, but that's a suggestion for the future development. Best Tony
On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I'll discuss some points:
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Sam Bushman
I for one think textnav is great. I think the more ways we can find out what's on a page and the more ways we have to get to the content that matters the better.
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A quick question though: What actually happens when you press alt-shift down or up arrows. Does it intelligently search for where to start reading? How does it actually find the start of an article etc to read. Thanks so much for all your work on this. Sam
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tony Malykh Sent: Monday, December 3, 2018 10:23 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet Gene, It seems to me all your comments imply that I want to replace browse mode keystrokes with TextNav. I emphasize, that TextNav does not replace them, but it should be used in addition to them. I agree some webdsites can be navigated very well with browse mode commands. I agree that power users should learn all the browse mode commands. But: 1. TextNav is great for new websites. Even for power users, you can quickly find out the right content without in-depth study of the layout of this website. 2. TextNav is great for newbies. Instead of pushing students to learn twenty five browse mode commands, just show them a single TextNav keystroke, that can let you browse 90% of content on 90% of web sites. And then, if they feel like learning more powerful techniques, they can always learn all 25 of browse mode commands. I still remember myself trying to learn all these browse mode command like five years ago when I started to learn screenreadres, and it made me very frustrated - so much stuff to learn. Why don't teach students a single command on the first day to give them a teste of Internet, and then move on to more powerful commands? 3. Older people that I know don't use Internet, because "it's too complicated". I only try to solve this problem. 4. Again, I emphasize, that if you want to figure out the name of the user on the forum, or the author of an article, you can always jus go back to traditional browse mode commands. Again, TextNav is not a replacement and doesn't strive to be one. However, in my daily routine, 90% of the time I don't care about the author. I suspect many NVDA users are like me, but I might be wrong here. 5. Automatic reading mode is stil available as NVDA keystroke. It wouldn't skip over ads though. I might think of having automatic reading mode with TextNav, but that's a suggestion for the future development. Best Tony On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote: I'll discuss some points:
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Rosemarie Chavarria
Hi, Tony,
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I couldn't have said it any better. While I agree that one should learn how to browse the internet with powerful commands, text nav is not a replacement for web browsing commands. My mother doesn't go on the internet very much except to look at family pictures on facebook. I haven't started working with text nav yet but I think it'll be very helpful when I go on the Dodgers web site. Thanks very much for this add-on. Rosemarie
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tony Malykh Sent: Monday, December 3, 2018 9:23 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet Gene, It seems to me all your comments imply that I want to replace browse mode keystrokes with TextNav. I emphasize, that TextNav does not replace them, but it should be used in addition to them. I agree some webdsites can be navigated very well with browse mode commands. I agree that power users should learn all the browse mode commands. But: 1. TextNav is great for new websites. Even for power users, you can quickly find out the right content without in-depth study of the layout of this website. 2. TextNav is great for newbies. Instead of pushing students to learn twenty five browse mode commands, just show them a single TextNav keystroke, that can let you browse 90% of content on 90% of web sites. And then, if they feel like learning more powerful techniques, they can always learn all 25 of browse mode commands. I still remember myself trying to learn all these browse mode command like five years ago when I started to learn screenreadres, and it made me very frustrated - so much stuff to learn. Why don't teach students a single command on the first day to give them a teste of Internet, and then move on to more powerful commands? 3. Older people that I know don't use Internet, because "it's too complicated". I only try to solve this problem. 4. Again, I emphasize, that if you want to figure out the name of the user on the forum, or the author of an article, you can always jus go back to traditional browse mode commands. Again, TextNav is not a replacement and doesn't strive to be one. However, in my daily routine, 90% of the time I don't care about the author. I suspect many NVDA users are like me, but I might be wrong here. 5. Automatic reading mode is stil available as NVDA keystroke. It wouldn't skip over ads though. I might think of having automatic reading mode with TextNav, but that's a suggestion for the future development. Best Tony On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote: I'll discuss some points:
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Agreed. I also skip the names of the guys who wrote comments, authors of articless, Take care. I could care less. I use a reader in safari so I just go past all of that and vo right fast until I get to the text as I don't trust vo command n which does the same as the n key in nvda.
On 2 Dec 2018, at 20:56, Tony Malykh wrote:
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I agree with jean. I push my students as well as I was pushed to learn all of the browse commands and I was a beginner. Then and only then could I learn other ways other easier ways. Second, 90 percent out of 90 percent of websites? I don't think so. Many websites are getting harder to use and more cluttered and full of gunk that the sighted like and the blind hate. Amazon anyone? So. your second claim is faulse, or soon might be.
On 3 Dec 2018, at 9:22, Tony Malykh wrote:
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Don H
This announcement makes it seem like this is a new addon. When you go to the addon web page it is not new at all.
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Gene
I'm not saying you want to replace navigation by
other means. I'm saying that your demonstration implies that it can be
used instead of most other commands. I'm not saying that is your
intention, but that is what it seems to me it implies.
I have no objection to the add-on. but if you
show someone something that is very easy too soon, that may significantly reduce
their motivation to learn other things that are important. If I were
teaching, I wouldn't show students the add-on until they had mastered Internet
use in general. I'm not talking about specific cases, such as older
people, but a lot of people would use the easiest thing, if introduced to it
first and not learn other things well, or at all.
I'm saying that in your demonstration material and
presentation, I think you should somehow indicate that the add-on is intended
for reading and doesn't replace other important knowledge. Your
demonstration, where you say that your add-on is 31 percent more efficient gives
the impression that if you use the add-on, you can pretty well forget about
needing any other knowledge. That is implied. I think that it should
be stated that the add-on is for reading articles and in some forums, it may
save considerable time.
I'm not sure if you see my comments as
hostile. they aren't intended to be. But I know human nature and I
also know that many blind people aren't taught to have confidence in
themselves. If the add-on is presented and publicized incorrectly, it may
dissuade many people from learning skilss they should know.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2018 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to
browse Internet It seems to me all your comments imply that I want to replace browse mode keystrokes with TextNav. I emphasize, that TextNav does not replace them, but it should be used in addition to them. I agree some webdsites can be navigated very well with browse mode commands. I agree that power users should learn all the browse mode commands. But: 1. TextNav is great for new websites. Even for power users, you can quickly find out the right content without in-depth study of the layout of this website. 2. TextNav is great for newbies. Instead of pushing students to learn twenty five browse mode commands, just show them a single TextNav keystroke, that can let you browse 90% of content on 90% of web sites. And then, if they feel like learning more powerful techniques, they can always learn all 25 of browse mode commands. I still remember myself trying to learn all these browse mode command like five years ago when I started to learn screenreadres, and it made me very frustrated - so much stuff to learn. Why don't teach students a single command on the first day to give them a teste of Internet, and then move on to more powerful commands? 3. Older people that I know don't use Internet, because "it's too complicated". I only try to solve this problem. 4. Again, I emphasize, that if you want to figure out the name of the user on the forum, or the author of an article, you can always jus go back to traditional browse mode commands. Again, TextNav is not a replacement and doesn't strive to be one. However, in my daily routine, 90% of the time I don't care about the author. I suspect many NVDA users are like me, but I might be wrong here. 5. Automatic reading mode is stil available as NVDA keystroke. It wouldn't skip over ads though. I might think of having automatic reading mode with TextNav, but that's a suggestion for the future development. Best Tony On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote: > I'll discuss some points: > First, something that I can comment on very briefly. You only tried the > skip blocks of links command on one site and, evidently, on one article. I > said that on some sites, one method works better and on others, another > does. The skip blocks of links command is an important and useful command. > > It may be that some people want a very simple way to read articles on web > pages and might have problems with using more complex ways, as you say. My > concern is that many people who can learn other ways that would give them > far more versatility and who wouldn't have trouble doing so may be disuaded > from doing so. So perhaps you should discuss just what this is for and its > limitations when you promote or describe it. It is a reading add-on that > allows you to skip to the start of an article and skip all interruptions to > the article such as groups of links to related material, advertisements > image descriptions, and perhaps other things I haven't thought of. I think > that making this clear and saying that those who want to use the Internet in > a wide variety of ways not involving mainly reading, such as music sites and > search sites, still need to learn and become profficient in the other ways > of web navigation NVDA offers. I don't object to the add-on but there are > many blind people who, because of a lack of knowledge or self-confidence, > severely limit themselves because they don't realize or believe they can't > do things they can do. I'm not sure just how you would present the add-on > but for a lot of people this would be an important convenience but you are > extremely limited if you don't know enough about web page navigation to use > search sites. Even many of the older people you are discussing, I suspect, > would want to know how to do basic searches. > > When I read a forum, I want to find a solution but what if I don't have any > idea which might be more likely to work or come from a more knowledgeable > user? Being more knowledgeable doesn't necessarily mean the information is > better but I consider it to be information to be aware of, whether someone > is a high ranking member of a list, an employee of Microsoft or some other > relevant company or organization, and other information, if available that > may help me assess his reliability. None of this is heard in the current > way the add-on works. > > and there are lots of other kinds of forums. Some people like to hang out > on political forums. they might well want to know who is writing so they > can see if the person is worth reading and either skipping, skimming, or > paying close attention to posts of certain authors. > there are an enormous number of forums. As I said, I don't know if the > add-on can have some sort of forums mode. I don't have the technical > knowledge to know. > > also, you didn't respond to what I said about having an automatic reading > mode. This is an important feature. Many people may use the add-on to find > the beginning of an article but may not continue to use it to read the > article because they don't want to issue a command every few sentences while > reading. If there were an automatic read command, this would allow people > to read as they would when using the speak to end command. But the add-on > would skip any extraneous material and read the entire article without > interruption or the need to repeatedly issue the read command. . > > And while this isn't a forum, consider something like the op-ed pages of a > newspaper. A bit of information may be provided about guest columnists that > may be useful to readers. If someone works at a conservative think tank, > his views may be very different than someone who works for a liberal one. > If the person works for a specific company, I want to know that. That puts > me on guard that his views may be defending the company for which he works. > If such information is routinely stripped by the add-on, that is important. > > Gene > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Tony Malykh > Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 10:56 PM > To: nvda@nvda.groups.io > Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse > Internet > > > Hi Gene, > Thank you for your feedback, I think these are very reasonable > questions you are raising. > 1. I didn't claim that TextNav should replace the traditional way of > browsing internet. It should rather augment it, be an addition to the > standard navigation commands. > 2. I see a lot of older blind people, for whom using computer is a > burden. You can claim they should still learn the proper way. Or you > can let them use the simpler way and let them enjoy what they can > enjoy with TextNav. Some of them might never be able to learn the > proper way - when you're 80 your brain doesn't work as well as when > you're 20. It is a question of simpler tools versus more powerful > tools. When cars with automatic transmission just appeared people were > claiming they are bad because the drivers will never learn to use the > clutch. Or when Windows appeared, some were claiming that it makes > people stupid, because they never learn the command-line way of unix. > Think of TextNav as a car with automatic transmission. And if you want > to learn more powerful ways to navigate web pages, NVDA browse mode > commands are always there. > 3. I agree I might have slightly exaggerated about 13x speedup. But > when I use TextNav myself, I can browse the web many times faster. > 4. I never knew of the N command in browse mode. I just tried it on > one web page and it seems to skip over the first paragraph of the > article. So you would have to press it a few times, try to figure out > if you are inside the article, and then go back up until you find the > beginning. All that compared to a single keystroke of TextNav. > 5. Crackling sound can be turned off or made quieter in the settings. > 6. Often times I just want to read the article. I don't want to read > the name of the author, date of publication, read the description of > the image. Sometimes the article is interesting, and I might want to > find the name of the author. Again, I can always do it with the > standard browse mode command. But Most of the times I don't care. By > skipping over these fields, you save a few seconds every time, but > this accumulates over the day into a much more efficient browsing > experience. Time will show how many NVDA users are like me not > interested in the name of the author. > 7. Same thing on the forum. I come to forums to solve my problems, > like in my example, the problem with bluetooth headphones. I don't > care whatsoever what's the nickname of the guy who asked the question, > and I care much less who answered it. > > Best regards > Tony > > > On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote: >> I have some comments on your demo for TextNav. First, it isn't a >> substitute >> for learning the layout and structures of web pages. If you use it >> before >> you know these things, you may not learn to deal with other than straight >> reading situations well. >> >> Your claim that TextNav is thirteen times more efficient when reading the >> page you used is not correct. it is thirteen times more efficient if you >> don't know how to work with internet pages for reading something like an >> article well, but you used a very inefficient method for your comparison. >> You didn't start at the top of the page and use the skip blocks of links >> command, the letter n. That gets you much much closer to the article >> text >> because it skips most of the material on this page before the article >> starts. On some pages, move by heading works better. On some, move by >> skip >> nnavigation works bettter. on some, move by heading, then using skip >> navigation links works better. On some, the find command works better. >> You >> may not find an efficient way to work with a page until you experiment. >> Once you do, you can use other article pages on that site the same way. >> I want to be clear. I am not saying that the add-on isn't very useful in >> skipping to the first sentence of an article. But you don't hear the >> author, you may not hear introductory material you might want to hear, >> and, >> if the article is more than two or three paragraphs, it would be >> exceedingly >> tedious to issue the move to next paragraph command repeatedly. For a >> somewhat long news article or a somewhat long magazine article, I would >> imagine you might have to issue the command twenty or thirty or forty or >> more times. The add-on needs an automated mode for straight reading >> uninterruptedly. >> >> And finally, your forum example demonstrates a real deficiency in the >> add-on. It starts reading the text of the first post and skips all >> information about who wrote it or how old it is or any other information >> that might be of interest such as what rating the person has for >> reliability >> or what his credentials are. Also, as you continue to read and even if >> you >> know when a second post is beginning to be read, you don't know who it is >> from. You can't be sure all the time, I would think, who is commenting >> on >> comments for the first time or who is making comments after making other >> comments. If the add-on is going to really be useful in such an >> environment, it needs to do more than just skip through entries by >> paragraph >> and not give you any information such as what I described. I don't know >> if >> this can be done. I don't know if a forums mode can be developed. That >> is >> f o r u m, as discussion forum, not to be confused with what some people >> call forms mode in some browsers for filling out forms. >> >> In short, the add-on has potential and I am not attempting to discourage >> its >> further development. Critics mmay be your best friends in such >> situations. >> But I think the add-on needs more work and refinement. >> >> and one last thing I forgot to mention earlier: >> The crackling sound should be able to be turned on and off. If I'm >> reading, >> I don't necessarily want to hear extraneous sounds that notify me of >> something when I am reading an article and am not interested in knowing >> such >> other information. >> >> Gene >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: Tony Malykh >> Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 6:25 PM >> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io >> Subject: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse >> Internet >> >> >> Hello NVDA users >> >> Today I am introducing TextNav add-on for NVDA - a better way to browse >> Internet for the blind! >> >> Have you ever felt that browsing new pages is frustrating when you >> couldn't find the content on the page? Try TextNav - it will find the >> right content for you in a single keystroke! TextNav is easy to use. >> Listen to a quick demo (7minutes long audio): >> https://soundcloud.com/user-977282820/textnav-promo >> >> Here is the link to download TextNav: >> https://addons.nvda-project.org/files/get.php?file=textnav >> >> TextNav on github: >> https://github.com/mltony/nvda-text-nav/ >> >> TextNav keystrokes: >> * Alt+Shift+Down: Find next paragraph with text. >> * Alt+Shift+Up: Find previous paragraph with text. >> >> I hope you enjoy it! Any suggestions are welcome! >> >> Sincerely, >> Tony Malykh >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > >
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Sile
Hello
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
The best use I have found for this add-on is for cites like ResearchGate where they refuse to implement section headers ... there it is really helpful. --Sile
On 12/3/2018 1:28 PM, Gene wrote:
I'm not saying you want to replace navigation by other means. I'm saying that your demonstration implies that it can be used instead of most other commands. I'm not saying that is your intention, but that is what it seems to me it implies.
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Gene
On thinking about this further, I think the best
way to promote the add-on is as a reading add-on. If you discuss how much
easier it makes reading and finding the beginning of content such as articles or
forums where you don't care about who is writing but just want information, I
have no objection to that. But it is not a way to replace general
navigation knowledge. Like the add-ons in Firefox and Chrome that
eliminate a lot of content from web pages, this is a reading
add-on.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2018 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to
browse Internet I'm not saying you want to replace navigation by
other means. I'm saying that your demonstration implies that it can be
used instead of most other commands. I'm not saying that is your
intention, but that is what it seems to me it implies.
I have no objection to the add-on. but if you
show someone something that is very easy too soon, that may significantly reduce
their motivation to learn other things that are important. If I were
teaching, I wouldn't show students the add-on until they had mastered Internet
use in general. I'm not talking about specific cases, such as older
people, but a lot of people would use the easiest thing, if introduced to it
first and not learn other things well, or at all.
I'm saying that in your demonstration material and
presentation, I think you should somehow indicate that the add-on is intended
for reading and doesn't replace other important knowledge. Your
demonstration, where you say that your add-on is 31 percent more efficient gives
the impression that if you use the add-on, you can pretty well forget about
needing any other knowledge. That is implied. I think that it should
be stated that the add-on is for reading articles and in some forums, it may
save considerable time.
I'm not sure if you see my comments as
hostile. they aren't intended to be. But I know human nature and I
also know that many blind people aren't taught to have confidence in
themselves. If the add-on is presented and publicized incorrectly, it may
dissuade many people from learning skilss they should know.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2018 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to
browse Internet It seems to me all your comments imply that I want to replace browse mode keystrokes with TextNav. I emphasize, that TextNav does not replace them, but it should be used in addition to them. I agree some webdsites can be navigated very well with browse mode commands. I agree that power users should learn all the browse mode commands. But: 1. TextNav is great for new websites. Even for power users, you can quickly find out the right content without in-depth study of the layout of this website. 2. TextNav is great for newbies. Instead of pushing students to learn twenty five browse mode commands, just show them a single TextNav keystroke, that can let you browse 90% of content on 90% of web sites. And then, if they feel like learning more powerful techniques, they can always learn all 25 of browse mode commands. I still remember myself trying to learn all these browse mode command like five years ago when I started to learn screenreadres, and it made me very frustrated - so much stuff to learn. Why don't teach students a single command on the first day to give them a teste of Internet, and then move on to more powerful commands? 3. Older people that I know don't use Internet, because "it's too complicated". I only try to solve this problem. 4. Again, I emphasize, that if you want to figure out the name of the user on the forum, or the author of an article, you can always jus go back to traditional browse mode commands. Again, TextNav is not a replacement and doesn't strive to be one. However, in my daily routine, 90% of the time I don't care about the author. I suspect many NVDA users are like me, but I might be wrong here. 5. Automatic reading mode is stil available as NVDA keystroke. It wouldn't skip over ads though. I might think of having automatic reading mode with TextNav, but that's a suggestion for the future development. Best Tony On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote: > I'll discuss some points: > First, something that I can comment on very briefly. You only tried the > skip blocks of links command on one site and, evidently, on one article. I > said that on some sites, one method works better and on others, another > does. The skip blocks of links command is an important and useful command. > > It may be that some people want a very simple way to read articles on web > pages and might have problems with using more complex ways, as you say. My > concern is that many people who can learn other ways that would give them > far more versatility and who wouldn't have trouble doing so may be disuaded > from doing so. So perhaps you should discuss just what this is for and its > limitations when you promote or describe it. It is a reading add-on that > allows you to skip to the start of an article and skip all interruptions to > the article such as groups of links to related material, advertisements > image descriptions, and perhaps other things I haven't thought of. I think > that making this clear and saying that those who want to use the Internet in > a wide variety of ways not involving mainly reading, such as music sites and > search sites, still need to learn and become profficient in the other ways > of web navigation NVDA offers. I don't object to the add-on but there are > many blind people who, because of a lack of knowledge or self-confidence, > severely limit themselves because they don't realize or believe they can't > do things they can do. I'm not sure just how you would present the add-on > but for a lot of people this would be an important convenience but you are > extremely limited if you don't know enough about web page navigation to use > search sites. Even many of the older people you are discussing, I suspect, > would want to know how to do basic searches. > > When I read a forum, I want to find a solution but what if I don't have any > idea which might be more likely to work or come from a more knowledgeable > user? Being more knowledgeable doesn't necessarily mean the information is > better but I consider it to be information to be aware of, whether someone > is a high ranking member of a list, an employee of Microsoft or some other > relevant company or organization, and other information, if available that > may help me assess his reliability. None of this is heard in the current > way the add-on works. > > and there are lots of other kinds of forums. Some people like to hang out > on political forums. they might well want to know who is writing so they > can see if the person is worth reading and either skipping, skimming, or > paying close attention to posts of certain authors. > there are an enormous number of forums. As I said, I don't know if the > add-on can have some sort of forums mode. I don't have the technical > knowledge to know. > > also, you didn't respond to what I said about having an automatic reading > mode. This is an important feature. Many people may use the add-on to find > the beginning of an article but may not continue to use it to read the > article because they don't want to issue a command every few sentences while > reading. If there were an automatic read command, this would allow people > to read as they would when using the speak to end command. But the add-on > would skip any extraneous material and read the entire article without > interruption or the need to repeatedly issue the read command. . > > And while this isn't a forum, consider something like the op-ed pages of a > newspaper. A bit of information may be provided about guest columnists that > may be useful to readers. If someone works at a conservative think tank, > his views may be very different than someone who works for a liberal one. > If the person works for a specific company, I want to know that. That puts > me on guard that his views may be defending the company for which he works. > If such information is routinely stripped by the add-on, that is important. > > Gene > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Tony Malykh > Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 10:56 PM > To: nvda@nvda.groups.io > Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse > Internet > > > Hi Gene, > Thank you for your feedback, I think these are very reasonable > questions you are raising. > 1. I didn't claim that TextNav should replace the traditional way of > browsing internet. It should rather augment it, be an addition to the > standard navigation commands. > 2. I see a lot of older blind people, for whom using computer is a > burden. You can claim they should still learn the proper way. Or you > can let them use the simpler way and let them enjoy what they can > enjoy with TextNav. Some of them might never be able to learn the > proper way - when you're 80 your brain doesn't work as well as when > you're 20. It is a question of simpler tools versus more powerful > tools. When cars with automatic transmission just appeared people were > claiming they are bad because the drivers will never learn to use the > clutch. Or when Windows appeared, some were claiming that it makes > people stupid, because they never learn the command-line way of unix. > Think of TextNav as a car with automatic transmission. And if you want > to learn more powerful ways to navigate web pages, NVDA browse mode > commands are always there. > 3. I agree I might have slightly exaggerated about 13x speedup. But > when I use TextNav myself, I can browse the web many times faster. > 4. I never knew of the N command in browse mode. I just tried it on > one web page and it seems to skip over the first paragraph of the > article. So you would have to press it a few times, try to figure out > if you are inside the article, and then go back up until you find the > beginning. All that compared to a single keystroke of TextNav. > 5. Crackling sound can be turned off or made quieter in the settings. > 6. Often times I just want to read the article. I don't want to read > the name of the author, date of publication, read the description of > the image. Sometimes the article is interesting, and I might want to > find the name of the author. Again, I can always do it with the > standard browse mode command. But Most of the times I don't care. By > skipping over these fields, you save a few seconds every time, but > this accumulates over the day into a much more efficient browsing > experience. Time will show how many NVDA users are like me not > interested in the name of the author. > 7. Same thing on the forum. I come to forums to solve my problems, > like in my example, the problem with bluetooth headphones. I don't > care whatsoever what's the nickname of the guy who asked the question, > and I care much less who answered it. > > Best regards > Tony > > > On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote: >> I have some comments on your demo for TextNav. First, it isn't a >> substitute >> for learning the layout and structures of web pages. If you use it >> before >> you know these things, you may not learn to deal with other than straight >> reading situations well. >> >> Your claim that TextNav is thirteen times more efficient when reading the >> page you used is not correct. it is thirteen times more efficient if you >> don't know how to work with internet pages for reading something like an >> article well, but you used a very inefficient method for your comparison. >> You didn't start at the top of the page and use the skip blocks of links >> command, the letter n. That gets you much much closer to the article >> text >> because it skips most of the material on this page before the article >> starts. On some pages, move by heading works better. On some, move by >> skip >> nnavigation works bettter. on some, move by heading, then using skip >> navigation links works better. On some, the find command works better. >> You >> may not find an efficient way to work with a page until you experiment. >> Once you do, you can use other article pages on that site the same way. >> I want to be clear. I am not saying that the add-on isn't very useful in >> skipping to the first sentence of an article. But you don't hear the >> author, you may not hear introductory material you might want to hear, >> and, >> if the article is more than two or three paragraphs, it would be >> exceedingly >> tedious to issue the move to next paragraph command repeatedly. For a >> somewhat long news article or a somewhat long magazine article, I would >> imagine you might have to issue the command twenty or thirty or forty or >> more times. The add-on needs an automated mode for straight reading >> uninterruptedly. >> >> And finally, your forum example demonstrates a real deficiency in the >> add-on. It starts reading the text of the first post and skips all >> information about who wrote it or how old it is or any other information >> that might be of interest such as what rating the person has for >> reliability >> or what his credentials are. Also, as you continue to read and even if >> you >> know when a second post is beginning to be read, you don't know who it is >> from. You can't be sure all the time, I would think, who is commenting >> on >> comments for the first time or who is making comments after making other >> comments. If the add-on is going to really be useful in such an >> environment, it needs to do more than just skip through entries by >> paragraph >> and not give you any information such as what I described. I don't know >> if >> this can be done. I don't know if a forums mode can be developed. That >> is >> f o r u m, as discussion forum, not to be confused with what some people >> call forms mode in some browsers for filling out forms. >> >> In short, the add-on has potential and I am not attempting to discourage >> its >> further development. Critics mmay be your best friends in such >> situations. >> But I think the add-on needs more work and refinement. >> >> and one last thing I forgot to mention earlier: >> The crackling sound should be able to be turned on and off. If I'm >> reading, >> I don't necessarily want to hear extraneous sounds that notify me of >> something when I am reading an article and am not interested in knowing >> such >> other information. >> >> Gene >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: Tony Malykh >> Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 6:25 PM >> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io >> Subject: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse >> Internet >> >> >> Hello NVDA users >> >> Today I am introducing TextNav add-on for NVDA - a better way to browse >> Internet for the blind! >> >> Have you ever felt that browsing new pages is frustrating when you >> couldn't find the content on the page? Try TextNav - it will find the >> right content for you in a single keystroke! TextNav is easy to use. >> Listen to a quick demo (7minutes long audio): >> https://soundcloud.com/user-977282820/textnav-promo >> >> Here is the link to download TextNav: >> https://addons.nvda-project.org/files/get.php?file=textnav >> >> TextNav on github: >> https://github.com/mltony/nvda-text-nav/ >> >> TextNav keystrokes: >> * Alt+Shift+Down: Find next paragraph with text. >> * Alt+Shift+Up: Find previous paragraph with text. >> >> I hope you enjoy it! Any suggestions are welcome! >> >> Sincerely, >> Tony Malykh >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > >
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To be honest I won't be getting this, I know how to brouse, to be honest, even though I was given extensive training for windows and jaws back in the day, I have a subset of commands I use.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Since I have pulled out of uni and don't have a mainstream job my commands have dropped. I need enough to navigate the web, thunderbird, and a few other apps but I honestly don't use that many comands at all.
On 12/4/2018 6:53 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I agree with jean. I push my students as well as I was pushed to learn all of the browse commands and I was a beginner. Then and only then could I learn other ways other easier ways.
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