Browse mode and focus


Felix G.
 

Hello list,
I'd like to ask how to keep focus from following the browse mode
cursor. While this behavior may often be desirable, there are many
instances in which it unnecessarily slows down the browsing experience
as NVDA needs to constantly keep track of focus events, deciding
whether or not they are related to browse mode cursor movements. With
unfortunate timing, NVDA sometimes fails to associate a browse mode
cursor action with its corresponding focus event and bounces back a
few lines or switches to forms mode because it thinks focus has
changed asynchronously on behalf of the website rather than the user.
The sighted world analogy of moving the browse mode cursor is simply
reading, which should not be associated with so many events in the
browser.
If anyone would like to try out how the other behavior, as also seen
in JAWS, would feel in terms of speed: Go to a complex website and
then navigate in browse mode, but not using the standard arrow keys
but instead the review cursor (numpad 7 and numpad 9).
All the best,
Felix


 

Hello,
You can configure it through the Settings, which can be found at the NVDA Menu (NVDA+N).
Search for browse mode, then uncheck the boxes on automatic change or something like that. I don't know how it should appear because I'm not using NVDA in English, but I hope it can help you somehow.
Em 21/12/2018 05:53, Felix G. escreveu:

Hello list,
I'd like to ask how to keep focus from following the browse mode
cursor. While this behavior may often be desirable, there are many
instances in which it unnecessarily slows down the browsing experience
as NVDA needs to constantly keep track of focus events, deciding
whether or not they are related to browse mode cursor movements. With
unfortunate timing, NVDA sometimes fails to associate a browse mode
cursor action with its corresponding focus event and bounces back a
few lines or switches to forms mode because it thinks focus has
changed asynchronously on behalf of the website rather than the user.
The sighted world analogy of moving the browse mode cursor is simply
reading, which should not be associated with so many events in the
browser.
If anyone would like to try out how the other behavior, as also seen
in JAWS, would feel in terms of speed: Go to a complex website and
then navigate in browse mode, but not using the standard arrow keys
but instead the review cursor (numpad 7 and numpad 9).
All the best,
Felix






Felix G.
 

Hello Marcio,
I could only find checkboxes dealing with the conditions for
automatically switching to focus mode, but nothing related to focus
changes. Those are completely different concepts. Are you sure we are
on the same page?
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 09:45 Uhr schrieb marcio via Groups.Io
<marcinhorj21=yahoo.com.br@groups.io>:


Hello,
You can configure it through the Settings, which can be found at the NVDA Menu (NVDA+N).
Search for browse mode, then uncheck the boxes on automatic change or something like that. I don't know how it should appear because I'm not using NVDA in English, but I hope it can help you somehow.

________________________________
Cheers,
Marcio
________________________________
Where to find me:
My Yahoo! email
Add me on Skype
Follow me on Twitter
Follow or add me on Facebook
Ask me something on CuriousCat
________________________________
Phone(s):
(+55)21-9-81615268 (Tim-RJ)
________________________________
My WhatsApp
________________________________
Em 21/12/2018 05:53, Felix G. escreveu:

Hello list,
I'd like to ask how to keep focus from following the browse mode
cursor. While this behavior may often be desirable, there are many
instances in which it unnecessarily slows down the browsing experience
as NVDA needs to constantly keep track of focus events, deciding
whether or not they are related to browse mode cursor movements. With
unfortunate timing, NVDA sometimes fails to associate a browse mode
cursor action with its corresponding focus event and bounces back a
few lines or switches to forms mode because it thinks focus has
changed asynchronously on behalf of the website rather than the user.
The sighted world analogy of moving the browse mode cursor is simply
reading, which should not be associated with so many events in the
browser.
If anyone would like to try out how the other behavior, as also seen
in JAWS, would feel in terms of speed: Go to a complex website and
then navigate in browse mode, but not using the standard arrow keys
but instead the review cursor (numpad 7 and numpad 9).
All the best,
Felix






Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Probably not, but if you can explain a little more clearly when you need to have it as you describe then we might be a bit wiser. Remember not everyone has Jaws or uses all if its features, so we may learn something here.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Felix G." <constantlyvariable@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus


Hello Marcio,
I could only find checkboxes dealing with the conditions for
automatically switching to focus mode, but nothing related to focus
changes. Those are completely different concepts. Are you sure we are
on the same page?
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 09:45 Uhr schrieb marcio via Groups.Io
<marcinhorj21=yahoo.com.br@groups.io>:

Hello,
You can configure it through the Settings, which can be found at the NVDA Menu (NVDA+N).
Search for browse mode, then uncheck the boxes on automatic change or something like that. I don't know how it should appear because I'm not using NVDA in English, but I hope it can help you somehow.

________________________________
Cheers,
Marcio
________________________________
Where to find me:
My Yahoo! email
Add me on Skype
Follow me on Twitter
Follow or add me on Facebook
Ask me something on CuriousCat
________________________________
Phone(s):
(+55)21-9-81615268 (Tim-RJ)
________________________________
My WhatsApp
________________________________
Em 21/12/2018 05:53, Felix G. escreveu:

Hello list,
I'd like to ask how to keep focus from following the browse mode
cursor. While this behavior may often be desirable, there are many
instances in which it unnecessarily slows down the browsing experience
as NVDA needs to constantly keep track of focus events, deciding
whether or not they are related to browse mode cursor movements. With
unfortunate timing, NVDA sometimes fails to associate a browse mode
cursor action with its corresponding focus event and bounces back a
few lines or switches to forms mode because it thinks focus has
changed asynchronously on behalf of the website rather than the user.
The sighted world analogy of moving the browse mode cursor is simply
reading, which should not be associated with so many events in the
browser.
If anyone would like to try out how the other behavior, as also seen
in JAWS, would feel in terms of speed: Go to a complex website and
then navigate in browse mode, but not using the standard arrow keys
but instead the review cursor (numpad 7 and numpad 9).
All the best,
Felix






Felix G.
 

Hi Brian and list,
sure, here is some more background regarding what I am observing:
As you are aware, both screen readers populate virtual buffers with
the contents of a web page, and whenever something on the page
dynamically changes, those buffers are updated to reflect the change.
So in theory, we can scroll quickly through the virtual copy without
the screen reader's having to constantly query the original by means
of some inter-process communication combined with code injection.
In practice, however, NVDA will send focus events as the user moves
the virtual cursor. So for example, when you arrow to a link, behind
the scenes NVDA will send a focus event for that link to the browser.
This has two advantages: First, the browser window will scroll such
that the link becomes visible if it hasn't been visible already. And
second, if the user chooses to switch to focus mode, they will find
that focus is exactly where they expect it to be, namely, where the
virtual cursor was.
The disadvantages of this approach are also twofold: First, when
scrolling quickly through the virtual buffer, a lot of these focus
events will be fired, resulting in a busy browser, often amounting to
a busy system. If the browser handles these events asynchronously,
NVDA will find it hard to associate them with the corresponding user
actions, with two possible results: a) NVDA will sometimes bounce back
in the virtual buffer as if drawn back by a rubber band; b) NVDA may
suddenly switch to focus mode as it falsely assumes a focus change
occurred on behalf of the website when in truth it occurred on behalf
of the user. Second, objects on web pages may see these focus events
as invitations to do something, such as play a video, or pop out a
text field for leaving a comment, as frequently witnessed on Facebook.
In this way users may find themselves interacting when all they wanted
was to read the page.
In summary, having focus follow the browse mode cursor makes it easier
for sighted and blind users to colaborate at the same screen, and also
makes the transition from browse mode to focus mode more graceful, at
the cost of some speed loss and unpredictability. Such an equilibrium
of pros and cons would seem to call for an option. I suggest the
following:
Have a check box called "System focus follows browse mode cursor" in
the browse mode preferences. This should be on by default. When it is
on, behavior is as implemented right now. When it is off, system focus
should not automatically follow the browse mode cursor, but when
switching to focus mode, focus should be given to the focusable object
closest to the browse mode cursor.
Let's discuss.
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 12:06 Uhr schrieb Brian's Mail list account
via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>:


Probably not, but if you can explain a little more clearly when you need to
have it as you describe then we might be a bit wiser. Remember not everyone
has Jaws or uses all if its features, so we may learn something here.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Felix G." <constantlyvariable@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus


Hello Marcio,
I could only find checkboxes dealing with the conditions for
automatically switching to focus mode, but nothing related to focus
changes. Those are completely different concepts. Are you sure we are
on the same page?
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 09:45 Uhr schrieb marcio via Groups.Io
<marcinhorj21=yahoo.com.br@groups.io>:

Hello,
You can configure it through the Settings, which can be found at the NVDA
Menu (NVDA+N).
Search for browse mode, then uncheck the boxes on automatic change or
something like that. I don't know how it should appear because I'm not
using NVDA in English, but I hope it can help you somehow.

________________________________
Cheers,
Marcio
________________________________
Where to find me:
My Yahoo! email
Add me on Skype
Follow me on Twitter
Follow or add me on Facebook
Ask me something on CuriousCat
________________________________
Phone(s):
(+55)21-9-81615268 (Tim-RJ)
________________________________
My WhatsApp
________________________________
Em 21/12/2018 05:53, Felix G. escreveu:

Hello list,
I'd like to ask how to keep focus from following the browse mode
cursor. While this behavior may often be desirable, there are many
instances in which it unnecessarily slows down the browsing experience
as NVDA needs to constantly keep track of focus events, deciding
whether or not they are related to browse mode cursor movements. With
unfortunate timing, NVDA sometimes fails to associate a browse mode
cursor action with its corresponding focus event and bounces back a
few lines or switches to forms mode because it thinks focus has
changed asynchronously on behalf of the website rather than the user.
The sighted world analogy of moving the browse mode cursor is simply
reading, which should not be associated with so many events in the
browser.
If anyone would like to try out how the other behavior, as also seen
in JAWS, would feel in terms of speed: Go to a complex website and
then navigate in browse mode, but not using the standard arrow keys
but instead the review cursor (numpad 7 and numpad 9).
All the best,
Felix









Gene
 

You can't navigate with web sites properly and not be in browse mode in screen-readers that use browse mode, which is the Windows screen-reader standard now.  One thing that may help is to turn off the automatic switching between browse mode and forms mode.  I consider having this as the default, that is automatic switching, to be a very bad mistake.
 
Aside from turning off the automatic switching feature, which shouldn't affect the speed of moving through a document but will keep automatic switching from occurring when you don't want it to, you are assuming the problem is the browse cursor and only that.  There are sites where the browse cursor and coding on the page slows movement. 
But if you are asking how to browse with browse mode off, that isn't practical and no provision is made for it.  Also, I'm not sure what you mean by focus.  Browse mode allows you to work with a web page as though a cursor is there, but it really isn't.  I'm not sure what you are asking for in terms of focus but the virtual cursor used in browse mode is where it is.  Asking for some sort of decoupling is like asking if you can move around in Wordpad and not have the application cursor move.  It isn't possible unless you aren't actually moving, but just using screen review. 
 
You may be able to reduce the problem by using more than one browser.  Some browsers are faster on some web pages when used with screen-readers than others. 
 

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Felix G.
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 1:53 AM
Subject: [nvda] Browse mode and focus

Hello list,
I'd like to ask how to keep focus from following the browse mode
cursor. While this behavior may often be desirable, there are many
instances in which it unnecessarily slows down the browsing experience
as NVDA needs to constantly keep track of focus events, deciding
whether or not they are related to browse mode cursor movements. With
unfortunate timing, NVDA sometimes fails to associate a browse mode
cursor action with its corresponding focus event and bounces back a
few lines or switches to forms mode because it thinks focus has
changed asynchronously on behalf of the website rather than the user.
The sighted world analogy of moving the browse mode cursor is simply
reading, which should not be associated with so many events in the
browser.
If anyone would like to try out how the other behavior, as also seen
in JAWS, would feel in terms of speed: Go to a complex website and
then navigate in browse mode, but not using the standard arrow keys
but instead the review cursor (numpad 7 and numpad 9).
All the best,
Felix



Gene
 

I don't know what you are describing as focus changes.  Some web pages cause something to happen when the mouse is moved and, correspondingly, when you move in browse mode, but I haven't run across many pages where moving in browse mode causes changes in a web page.  If you are asking how to read a page while leaving the browse mode cursor where it is and using screen review, there may be ways to allow screen review to see the content of the page.  It has been so long since this has been discussed here that I don't remember details.  I'm not sure what you are trying to do but at times, since I'm using a slow computer often, much slower than it should be for efficient Internet use, I select an entire page, copy it to the clipboard and paste into Notepad for reading or looking for what I want.  If I don't intend to follow more links to get to the content I want, this works well.  I have much faster computers but for various reasons, I use this slow one most of the time.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Felix G.
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 3:29 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus

Hello Marcio,
I could only find checkboxes dealing with the conditions for
automatically switching to focus mode, but nothing related to focus
changes. Those are completely different concepts. Are you sure we are
on the same page?
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 09:45 Uhr schrieb marcio via Groups.Io
<marcinhorj21@...>:
>
> Hello,
> You can configure it through the Settings, which can be found at the NVDA Menu (NVDA+N).
> Search for browse mode, then uncheck the boxes on automatic change or something like that. I don't know how it should appear because I'm not using NVDA in English, but I hope it can help you somehow.
>
> ________________________________
> Cheers,
> Marcio
> ________________________________
> Where to find me:
> My Yahoo! email
> Add me on Skype
> Follow me on Twitter
> Follow or add me on Facebook
> Ask me something on CuriousCat
> ________________________________
> Phone(s):
> (+55)21-9-81615268 (Tim-RJ)
> ________________________________
> My WhatsApp
> ________________________________
> Em 21/12/2018 05:53, Felix G. escreveu:
>
> Hello list,
> I'd like to ask how to keep focus from following the browse mode
> cursor. While this behavior may often be desirable, there are many
> instances in which it unnecessarily slows down the browsing experience
> as NVDA needs to constantly keep track of focus events, deciding
> whether or not they are related to browse mode cursor movements. With
> unfortunate timing, NVDA sometimes fails to associate a browse mode
> cursor action with its corresponding focus event and bounces back a
> few lines or switches to forms mode because it thinks focus has
> changed asynchronously on behalf of the website rather than the user.
> The sighted world analogy of moving the browse mode cursor is simply
> reading, which should not be associated with so many events in the
> browser.
> If anyone would like to try out how the other behavior, as also seen
> in JAWS, would feel in terms of speed: Go to a complex website and
> then navigate in browse mode, but not using the standard arrow keys
> but instead the review cursor (numpad 7 and numpad 9).
> All the best,
> Felix
>
>
>
>
>
>



Gene
 

I suspect that the JAWS cursor may see the web page text when NVDA review doesn't. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 5:06 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus

Probably not, but if you can explain a little more clearly when you need to
have it as you describe then we might be a bit wiser. Remember not everyone
has Jaws or uses all if its features, so we may learn something here.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Felix G." <constantlyvariable@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus


> Hello Marcio,
> I could only find checkboxes dealing with the conditions for
> automatically switching to focus mode, but nothing related to focus
> changes. Those are completely different concepts. Are you sure we are
> on the same page?
> Best,
> Felix
>
> Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 09:45 Uhr schrieb marcio via Groups.Io
> <marcinhorj21@...>:
>>
>> Hello,
>> You can configure it through the Settings, which can be found at the NVDA
>> Menu (NVDA+N).
>> Search for browse mode, then uncheck the boxes on automatic change or
>> something like that. I don't know how it should appear because I'm not
>> using NVDA in English, but I hope it can help you somehow.
>>
>> ________________________________
>> Cheers,
>> Marcio
>> ________________________________
>> Where to find me:
>> My Yahoo! email
>> Add me on Skype
>> Follow me on Twitter
>> Follow or add me on Facebook
>> Ask me something on CuriousCat
>> ________________________________
>> Phone(s):
>> (+55)21-9-81615268 (Tim-RJ)
>> ________________________________
>> My WhatsApp
>> ________________________________
>> Em 21/12/2018 05:53, Felix G. escreveu:
>>
>> Hello list,
>> I'd like to ask how to keep focus from following the browse mode
>> cursor. While this behavior may often be desirable, there are many
>> instances in which it unnecessarily slows down the browsing experience
>> as NVDA needs to constantly keep track of focus events, deciding
>> whether or not they are related to browse mode cursor movements. With
>> unfortunate timing, NVDA sometimes fails to associate a browse mode
>> cursor action with its corresponding focus event and bounces back a
>> few lines or switches to forms mode because it thinks focus has
>> changed asynchronously on behalf of the website rather than the user.
>> The sighted world analogy of moving the browse mode cursor is simply
>> reading, which should not be associated with so many events in the
>> browser.
>> If anyone would like to try out how the other behavior, as also seen
>> in JAWS, would feel in terms of speed: Go to a complex website and
>> then navigate in browse mode, but not using the standard arrow keys
>> but instead the review cursor (numpad 7 and numpad 9).
>> All the best,
>> Felix
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>




Gene
 

I may Have misunderstood what you want to do and I may not have the technical knowledge to fully understand what you want changed.  Are you talking about being able to move through a web page and have browse mode just show you the page, as though you had copied it into something like Notepad?  In that case, you would move, but nothing would ever be triggered on the page as you move.  But you seem to be discussing this related to a feature that allows a person to see where the blind person is on the page.  If so, why are you assuming they are related?  Isn't there already a setting to turn off this feature, used by sighted instructors or others working with a blind person?
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Gene
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 8:14 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus

I suspect that the JAWS cursor may see the web page text when NVDA review doesn't. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 5:06 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus

Probably not, but if you can explain a little more clearly when you need to
have it as you describe then we might be a bit wiser. Remember not everyone
has Jaws or uses all if its features, so we may learn something here.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Felix G." <constantlyvariable@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus


> Hello Marcio,
> I could only find checkboxes dealing with the conditions for
> automatically switching to focus mode, but nothing related to focus
> changes. Those are completely different concepts. Are you sure we are
> on the same page?
> Best,
> Felix
>
> Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 09:45 Uhr schrieb marcio via Groups.Io
> <marcinhorj21@...>:
>>
>> Hello,
>> You can configure it through the Settings, which can be found at the NVDA
>> Menu (NVDA+N).
>> Search for browse mode, then uncheck the boxes on automatic change or
>> something like that. I don't know how it should appear because I'm not
>> using NVDA in English, but I hope it can help you somehow.
>>
>> ________________________________
>> Cheers,
>> Marcio
>> ________________________________
>> Where to find me:
>> My Yahoo! email
>> Add me on Skype
>> Follow me on Twitter
>> Follow or add me on Facebook
>> Ask me something on CuriousCat
>> ________________________________
>> Phone(s):
>> (+55)21-9-81615268 (Tim-RJ)
>> ________________________________
>> My WhatsApp
>> ________________________________
>> Em 21/12/2018 05:53, Felix G. escreveu:
>>
>> Hello list,
>> I'd like to ask how to keep focus from following the browse mode
>> cursor. While this behavior may often be desirable, there are many
>> instances in which it unnecessarily slows down the browsing experience
>> as NVDA needs to constantly keep track of focus events, deciding
>> whether or not they are related to browse mode cursor movements. With
>> unfortunate timing, NVDA sometimes fails to associate a browse mode
>> cursor action with its corresponding focus event and bounces back a
>> few lines or switches to forms mode because it thinks focus has
>> changed asynchronously on behalf of the website rather than the user.
>> The sighted world analogy of moving the browse mode cursor is simply
>> reading, which should not be associated with so many events in the
>> browser.
>> If anyone would like to try out how the other behavior, as also seen
>> in JAWS, would feel in terms of speed: Go to a complex website and
>> then navigate in browse mode, but not using the standard arrow keys
>> but instead the review cursor (numpad 7 and numpad 9).
>> All the best,
>> Felix
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>




Felix G.
 

Hello Gene,
exactly, that's what I am referring to: A way to move the browse mode
cursor through a page without triggering events in the browser. It
would feel lightning-fast, as it would only involve changing a
position in an internal textual representation fully managed by NVDA
in its own process space. When hitting enter or the space bar to
interact with something, focus could then be brought to that object.
The analogy in the sighted world is that of a touch screen: Just
looking at the contents does not generate events, and is therefore not
slowed down by anything the browser needs to handle.
I am calling those events focus changes because technically that's
what they are. Focus, in this context, is the Windows concept defined
as a control's responsibility for handling keyboard input. It's hard
to describe without leaving a lot of dangling terms as it's a very
technical notion in Windows programming.
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 15:29 Uhr schrieb Gene <gsasner@gmail.com>:


I may Have misunderstood what you want to do and I may not have the technical knowledge to fully understand what you want changed. Are you talking about being able to move through a web page and have browse mode just show you the page, as though you had copied it into something like Notepad? In that case, you would move, but nothing would ever be triggered on the page as you move. But you seem to be discussing this related to a feature that allows a person to see where the blind person is on the page. If so, why are you assuming they are related? Isn't there already a setting to turn off this feature, used by sighted instructors or others working with a blind person?

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 8:14 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus

I suspect that the JAWS cursor may see the web page text when NVDA review doesn't.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 5:06 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus

Probably not, but if you can explain a little more clearly when you need to
have it as you describe then we might be a bit wiser. Remember not everyone
has Jaws or uses all if its features, so we may learn something here.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Felix G." <constantlyvariable@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus


Hello Marcio,
I could only find checkboxes dealing with the conditions for
automatically switching to focus mode, but nothing related to focus
changes. Those are completely different concepts. Are you sure we are
on the same page?
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 09:45 Uhr schrieb marcio via Groups.Io
<marcinhorj21=yahoo.com.br@groups.io>:

Hello,
You can configure it through the Settings, which can be found at the NVDA
Menu (NVDA+N).
Search for browse mode, then uncheck the boxes on automatic change or
something like that. I don't know how it should appear because I'm not
using NVDA in English, but I hope it can help you somehow.

________________________________
Cheers,
Marcio
________________________________
Where to find me:
My Yahoo! email
Add me on Skype
Follow me on Twitter
Follow or add me on Facebook
Ask me something on CuriousCat
________________________________
Phone(s):
(+55)21-9-81615268 (Tim-RJ)
________________________________
My WhatsApp
________________________________
Em 21/12/2018 05:53, Felix G. escreveu:

Hello list,
I'd like to ask how to keep focus from following the browse mode
cursor. While this behavior may often be desirable, there are many
instances in which it unnecessarily slows down the browsing experience
as NVDA needs to constantly keep track of focus events, deciding
whether or not they are related to browse mode cursor movements. With
unfortunate timing, NVDA sometimes fails to associate a browse mode
cursor action with its corresponding focus event and bounces back a
few lines or switches to forms mode because it thinks focus has
changed asynchronously on behalf of the website rather than the user.
The sighted world analogy of moving the browse mode cursor is simply
reading, which should not be associated with so many events in the
browser.
If anyone would like to try out how the other behavior, as also seen
in JAWS, would feel in terms of speed: Go to a complex website and
then navigate in browse mode, but not using the standard arrow keys
but instead the review cursor (numpad 7 and numpad 9).
All the best,
Felix









Felix G.
 

Just found a ticket on this problem:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/2039
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 15:51 Uhr schrieb Felix G. via Groups.Io
<constantlyvariable=gmail.com@groups.io>:


Hello Gene,
exactly, that's what I am referring to: A way to move the browse mode
cursor through a page without triggering events in the browser. It
would feel lightning-fast, as it would only involve changing a
position in an internal textual representation fully managed by NVDA
in its own process space. When hitting enter or the space bar to
interact with something, focus could then be brought to that object.
The analogy in the sighted world is that of a touch screen: Just
looking at the contents does not generate events, and is therefore not
slowed down by anything the browser needs to handle.
I am calling those events focus changes because technically that's
what they are. Focus, in this context, is the Windows concept defined
as a control's responsibility for handling keyboard input. It's hard
to describe without leaving a lot of dangling terms as it's a very
technical notion in Windows programming.
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 15:29 Uhr schrieb Gene <gsasner@gmail.com>:

I may Have misunderstood what you want to do and I may not have the technical knowledge to fully understand what you want changed. Are you talking about being able to move through a web page and have browse mode just show you the page, as though you had copied it into something like Notepad? In that case, you would move, but nothing would ever be triggered on the page as you move. But you seem to be discussing this related to a feature that allows a person to see where the blind person is on the page. If so, why are you assuming they are related? Isn't there already a setting to turn off this feature, used by sighted instructors or others working with a blind person?

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 8:14 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus

I suspect that the JAWS cursor may see the web page text when NVDA review doesn't.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 5:06 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus

Probably not, but if you can explain a little more clearly when you need to
have it as you describe then we might be a bit wiser. Remember not everyone
has Jaws or uses all if its features, so we may learn something here.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Felix G." <constantlyvariable@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus


Hello Marcio,
I could only find checkboxes dealing with the conditions for
automatically switching to focus mode, but nothing related to focus
changes. Those are completely different concepts. Are you sure we are
on the same page?
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 09:45 Uhr schrieb marcio via Groups.Io
<marcinhorj21=yahoo.com.br@groups.io>:

Hello,
You can configure it through the Settings, which can be found at the NVDA
Menu (NVDA+N).
Search for browse mode, then uncheck the boxes on automatic change or
something like that. I don't know how it should appear because I'm not
using NVDA in English, but I hope it can help you somehow.

________________________________
Cheers,
Marcio
________________________________
Where to find me:
My Yahoo! email
Add me on Skype
Follow me on Twitter
Follow or add me on Facebook
Ask me something on CuriousCat
________________________________
Phone(s):
(+55)21-9-81615268 (Tim-RJ)
________________________________
My WhatsApp
________________________________
Em 21/12/2018 05:53, Felix G. escreveu:

Hello list,
I'd like to ask how to keep focus from following the browse mode
cursor. While this behavior may often be desirable, there are many
instances in which it unnecessarily slows down the browsing experience
as NVDA needs to constantly keep track of focus events, deciding
whether or not they are related to browse mode cursor movements. With
unfortunate timing, NVDA sometimes fails to associate a browse mode
cursor action with its corresponding focus event and bounces back a
few lines or switches to forms mode because it thinks focus has
changed asynchronously on behalf of the website rather than the user.
The sighted world analogy of moving the browse mode cursor is simply
reading, which should not be associated with so many events in the
browser.
If anyone would like to try out how the other behavior, as also seen
in JAWS, would feel in terms of speed: Go to a complex website and
then navigate in browse mode, but not using the standard arrow keys
but instead the review cursor (numpad 7 and numpad 9).
All the best,
Felix










Tony Malykh
 

Hi Felix,
I experience all the same problems as you described: rubber band
browse mode cursor jumping back on large webpages, and also edit boxes
automatically entering forms mode even though I didn't ask them to.
It's good to know that this is a known issue, but this indeed seems
like a complicated issue to fix.
1. It seems to me that adding a switch like "browse mode cursor moves
system focus" would be a very useful fix in the short term. We already
have a "caret moves review cursor" switch bound to NVDA+6 - so it
seems to be just a question of adding another switch like this. I have
to say that most of the web sites work fine for me with current NVDA
behavior, and for those websites that don't work very well, this new
switch might come very handy.
2. Do you know how Jaws works around this problem? Do they not update
system focus at all when in browse mode? Or they only update it when
they realise that some other gesture might require updated focus?

Best
Tony

On 12/21/18, Felix G. <constantlyvariable@gmail.com> wrote:
Just found a ticket on this problem:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/2039
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 15:51 Uhr schrieb Felix G. via Groups.Io
<constantlyvariable=gmail.com@groups.io>:

Hello Gene,
exactly, that's what I am referring to: A way to move the browse mode
cursor through a page without triggering events in the browser. It
would feel lightning-fast, as it would only involve changing a
position in an internal textual representation fully managed by NVDA
in its own process space. When hitting enter or the space bar to
interact with something, focus could then be brought to that object.
The analogy in the sighted world is that of a touch screen: Just
looking at the contents does not generate events, and is therefore not
slowed down by anything the browser needs to handle.
I am calling those events focus changes because technically that's
what they are. Focus, in this context, is the Windows concept defined
as a control's responsibility for handling keyboard input. It's hard
to describe without leaving a lot of dangling terms as it's a very
technical notion in Windows programming.
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 15:29 Uhr schrieb Gene <gsasner@gmail.com>:

I may Have misunderstood what you want to do and I may not have the
technical knowledge to fully understand what you want changed. Are you
talking about being able to move through a web page and have browse mode
just show you the page, as though you had copied it into something like
Notepad? In that case, you would move, but nothing would ever be
triggered on the page as you move. But you seem to be discussing this
related to a feature that allows a person to see where the blind person
is on the page. If so, why are you assuming they are related? Isn't
there already a setting to turn off this feature, used by sighted
instructors or others working with a blind person?

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 8:14 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus

I suspect that the JAWS cursor may see the web page text when NVDA
review doesn't.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 5:06 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus

Probably not, but if you can explain a little more clearly when you need
to
have it as you describe then we might be a bit wiser. Remember not
everyone
has Jaws or uses all if its features, so we may learn something here.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Felix G." <constantlyvariable@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus


Hello Marcio,
I could only find checkboxes dealing with the conditions for
automatically switching to focus mode, but nothing related to focus
changes. Those are completely different concepts. Are you sure we are
on the same page?
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 09:45 Uhr schrieb marcio via Groups.Io
<marcinhorj21=yahoo.com.br@groups.io>:

Hello,
You can configure it through the Settings, which can be found at the
NVDA
Menu (NVDA+N).
Search for browse mode, then uncheck the boxes on automatic change
or
something like that. I don't know how it should appear because I'm
not
using NVDA in English, but I hope it can help you somehow.

________________________________
Cheers,
Marcio
________________________________
Where to find me:
My Yahoo! email
Add me on Skype
Follow me on Twitter
Follow or add me on Facebook
Ask me something on CuriousCat
________________________________
Phone(s):
(+55)21-9-81615268 (Tim-RJ)
________________________________
My WhatsApp
________________________________
Em 21/12/2018 05:53, Felix G. escreveu:

Hello list,
I'd like to ask how to keep focus from following the browse mode
cursor. While this behavior may often be desirable, there are many
instances in which it unnecessarily slows down the browsing
experience
as NVDA needs to constantly keep track of focus events, deciding
whether or not they are related to browse mode cursor movements.
With
unfortunate timing, NVDA sometimes fails to associate a browse mode
cursor action with its corresponding focus event and bounces back a
few lines or switches to forms mode because it thinks focus has
changed asynchronously on behalf of the website rather than the
user.
The sighted world analogy of moving the browse mode cursor is simply
reading, which should not be associated with so many events in the
browser.
If anyone would like to try out how the other behavior, as also seen
in JAWS, would feel in terms of speed: Go to a complex website and
then navigate in browse mode, but not using the standard arrow keys
but instead the review cursor (numpad 7 and numpad 9).
All the best,
Felix












Tony Malykh
 

I must also add that edit boxes sporadically entering forms mode is a
very big problem for me. At work I have to use a website that contains
an edit box that somehow always enters forms mode and once this
happens, the web site opens a popup dialog somewhere in the end of the
page and brings the focus there. So there is no easy way to go past
that edit box and the entire website becomes unusable. I know, this is
probably not a very screenreader-friendly website, but Jaws manages to
work fine with it somehow. I would say that this problem is one of the
major disadvantages of NVDA compared to Jaws.

On 12/21/18, Tony Malykh via Groups.Io <anton.malykh=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Felix,
I experience all the same problems as you described: rubber band
browse mode cursor jumping back on large webpages, and also edit boxes
automatically entering forms mode even though I didn't ask them to.
It's good to know that this is a known issue, but this indeed seems
like a complicated issue to fix.
1. It seems to me that adding a switch like "browse mode cursor moves
system focus" would be a very useful fix in the short term. We already
have a "caret moves review cursor" switch bound to NVDA+6 - so it
seems to be just a question of adding another switch like this. I have
to say that most of the web sites work fine for me with current NVDA
behavior, and for those websites that don't work very well, this new
switch might come very handy.
2. Do you know how Jaws works around this problem? Do they not update
system focus at all when in browse mode? Or they only update it when
they realise that some other gesture might require updated focus?

Best
Tony


On 12/21/18, Felix G. <constantlyvariable@gmail.com> wrote:
Just found a ticket on this problem:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/2039
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 15:51 Uhr schrieb Felix G. via Groups.Io
<constantlyvariable=gmail.com@groups.io>:

Hello Gene,
exactly, that's what I am referring to: A way to move the browse mode
cursor through a page without triggering events in the browser. It
would feel lightning-fast, as it would only involve changing a
position in an internal textual representation fully managed by NVDA
in its own process space. When hitting enter or the space bar to
interact with something, focus could then be brought to that object.
The analogy in the sighted world is that of a touch screen: Just
looking at the contents does not generate events, and is therefore not
slowed down by anything the browser needs to handle.
I am calling those events focus changes because technically that's
what they are. Focus, in this context, is the Windows concept defined
as a control's responsibility for handling keyboard input. It's hard
to describe without leaving a lot of dangling terms as it's a very
technical notion in Windows programming.
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 15:29 Uhr schrieb Gene <gsasner@gmail.com>:

I may Have misunderstood what you want to do and I may not have the
technical knowledge to fully understand what you want changed. Are
you
talking about being able to move through a web page and have browse
mode
just show you the page, as though you had copied it into something
like
Notepad? In that case, you would move, but nothing would ever be
triggered on the page as you move. But you seem to be discussing this
related to a feature that allows a person to see where the blind
person
is on the page. If so, why are you assuming they are related? Isn't
there already a setting to turn off this feature, used by sighted
instructors or others working with a blind person?

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 8:14 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus

I suspect that the JAWS cursor may see the web page text when NVDA
review doesn't.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 5:06 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus

Probably not, but if you can explain a little more clearly when you
need
to
have it as you describe then we might be a bit wiser. Remember not
everyone
has Jaws or uses all if its features, so we may learn something here.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Felix G." <constantlyvariable@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus


Hello Marcio,
I could only find checkboxes dealing with the conditions for
automatically switching to focus mode, but nothing related to focus
changes. Those are completely different concepts. Are you sure we
are
on the same page?
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 09:45 Uhr schrieb marcio via Groups.Io
<marcinhorj21=yahoo.com.br@groups.io>:

Hello,
You can configure it through the Settings, which can be found at
the
NVDA
Menu (NVDA+N).
Search for browse mode, then uncheck the boxes on automatic change
or
something like that. I don't know how it should appear because I'm
not
using NVDA in English, but I hope it can help you somehow.

________________________________
Cheers,
Marcio
________________________________
Where to find me:
My Yahoo! email
Add me on Skype
Follow me on Twitter
Follow or add me on Facebook
Ask me something on CuriousCat
________________________________
Phone(s):
(+55)21-9-81615268 (Tim-RJ)
________________________________
My WhatsApp
________________________________
Em 21/12/2018 05:53, Felix G. escreveu:

Hello list,
I'd like to ask how to keep focus from following the browse mode
cursor. While this behavior may often be desirable, there are many
instances in which it unnecessarily slows down the browsing
experience
as NVDA needs to constantly keep track of focus events, deciding
whether or not they are related to browse mode cursor movements.
With
unfortunate timing, NVDA sometimes fails to associate a browse mode
cursor action with its corresponding focus event and bounces back a
few lines or switches to forms mode because it thinks focus has
changed asynchronously on behalf of the website rather than the
user.
The sighted world analogy of moving the browse mode cursor is
simply
reading, which should not be associated with so many events in the
browser.
If anyone would like to try out how the other behavior, as also
seen
in JAWS, would feel in terms of speed: Go to a complex website and
then navigate in browse mode, but not using the standard arrow keys
but instead the review cursor (numpad 7 and numpad 9).
All the best,
Felix














Gene
 

Without the technical knowledge to evaluate the idea properly, I'll say that it sounds as though it might be a good one but that it should be off by default.  Too many people wouldn't learn about it and they wouldn't understand why they can't do things such as move somewhere on a page and have the correct options appear, as I've seen happen on the Drop Box lists of your files on the page.  the list changes what files are displayed depending on where you are.  Also, I think this might stop the ability to move somewhere, then click it with the simulated mouse because you wouldn't be on the object.  But for those who take time to learn about it, it might be a good feature.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Felix G.
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 8:51 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus

Hello Gene,
exactly, that's what I am referring to: A way to move the browse mode
cursor through a page without triggering events in the browser. It
would feel lightning-fast, as it would only involve changing a
position in an internal textual representation fully managed by NVDA
in its own process space. When hitting enter or the space bar to
interact with something, focus could then be brought to that object.
The analogy in the sighted world is that of a touch screen: Just
looking at the contents does not generate events, and is therefore not
slowed down by anything the browser needs to handle.
I am calling those events focus changes because technically that's
what they are. Focus, in this context, is the Windows concept defined
as a control's responsibility for handling keyboard input. It's hard
to describe without leaving a lot of dangling terms as it's a very
technical notion in Windows programming.
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 15:29 Uhr schrieb Gene <gsasner@...>:
>
> I may Have misunderstood what you want to do and I may not have the technical knowledge to fully understand what you want changed.  Are you talking about being able to move through a web page and have browse mode just show you the page, as though you had copied it into something like Notepad?  In that case, you would move, but nothing would ever be triggered on the page as you move.  But you seem to be discussing this related to a feature that allows a person to see where the blind person is on the page.  If so, why are you assuming they are related?  Isn't there already a setting to turn off this feature, used by sighted instructors or others working with a blind person?
>
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gene
> Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 8:14 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus
>
> I suspect that the JAWS cursor may see the web page text when NVDA review doesn't.
>
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
> Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 5:06 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus
>
> Probably not, but if you can explain a little more clearly when you need to
> have it as you describe then we might be a bit wiser. Remember not everyone
> has Jaws or uses all if its features, so we may learn something here.
>  Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal E-mail to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Felix G." <constantlyvariable@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 9:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus
>
>
> > Hello Marcio,
> > I could only find checkboxes dealing with the conditions for
> > automatically switching to focus mode, but nothing related to focus
> > changes. Those are completely different concepts. Are you sure we are
> > on the same page?
> > Best,
> > Felix
> >
> > Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 09:45 Uhr schrieb marcio via Groups.Io
> > <marcinhorj21@...>:
> >>
> >> Hello,
> >> You can configure it through the Settings, which can be found at the NVDA
> >> Menu (NVDA+N).
> >> Search for browse mode, then uncheck the boxes on automatic change or
> >> something like that. I don't know how it should appear because I'm not
> >> using NVDA in English, but I hope it can help you somehow.
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> Cheers,
> >> Marcio
> >> ________________________________
> >> Where to find me:
> >> My Yahoo! email
> >> Add me on Skype
> >> Follow me on Twitter
> >> Follow or add me on Facebook
> >> Ask me something on CuriousCat
> >> ________________________________
> >> Phone(s):
> >> (+55)21-9-81615268 (Tim-RJ)
> >> ________________________________
> >> My WhatsApp
> >> ________________________________
> >> Em 21/12/2018 05:53, Felix G. escreveu:
> >>
> >> Hello list,
> >> I'd like to ask how to keep focus from following the browse mode
> >> cursor. While this behavior may often be desirable, there are many
> >> instances in which it unnecessarily slows down the browsing experience
> >> as NVDA needs to constantly keep track of focus events, deciding
> >> whether or not they are related to browse mode cursor movements. With
> >> unfortunate timing, NVDA sometimes fails to associate a browse mode
> >> cursor action with its corresponding focus event and bounces back a
> >> few lines or switches to forms mode because it thinks focus has
> >> changed asynchronously on behalf of the website rather than the user.
> >> The sighted world analogy of moving the browse mode cursor is simply
> >> reading, which should not be associated with so many events in the
> >> browser.
> >> If anyone would like to try out how the other behavior, as also seen
> >> in JAWS, would feel in terms of speed: Go to a complex website and
> >> then navigate in browse mode, but not using the standard arrow keys
> >> but instead the review cursor (numpad 7 and numpad 9).
> >> All the best,
> >> Felix
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>



Gene
 

Are you sure you have automatic switching off in NVDA?  I never have browse mode turn off when I have the automatic switching feature off.  I have repeatedly said that automatic switching should not be on by default.  It is not a setting that people should have on unless they know about it and understand exactly how it works. 
 
And to confuse unknowledgeable and learning users more, it automatically switches modes when you move in some ways and it doesn't switch when you move in other ways.  People learning how to use the internet should not have this feature confusing them and making it harder to learn.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus

I must also add that edit boxes sporadically entering forms mode is a
very big problem for me. At work I have to use a website that contains
an edit box that somehow always enters forms mode and once this
happens, the web site opens a popup dialog somewhere in the end of the
page and brings the focus there. So there is no easy way to go past
that edit box and the entire website becomes unusable. I know, this is
probably not a very screenreader-friendly website, but Jaws manages to
work fine with it somehow. I would say that this problem is one of the
major disadvantages of NVDA compared to Jaws.

On 12/21/18, Tony Malykh via Groups.Io <anton.malykh@...> wrote:
> Hi Felix,
> I experience all the same problems as you described: rubber band
> browse mode cursor jumping back on large webpages, and also edit boxes
> automatically entering forms mode even though I didn't ask them to.
> It's good to know that this is a known issue, but this indeed seems
> like a complicated issue to fix.
> 1. It seems to me that adding a switch like "browse mode cursor moves
> system focus" would be a very useful fix in the short term. We already
> have a "caret moves review cursor" switch bound to NVDA+6 - so it
> seems to be just a question of adding another switch like this. I have
> to say that most of the web sites work fine for me with current NVDA
> behavior, and for those websites that don't work very well, this new
> switch might come very handy.
> 2. Do you know how Jaws works around this problem? Do they not update
> system focus at all when in browse mode? Or they only update it when
> they realise that some other gesture might require updated focus?
>
> Best
> Tony
>
>
> On 12/21/18, Felix G. <constantlyvariable@...> wrote:
>> Just found a ticket on this problem:
>> https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/2039
>> Best,
>> Felix
>>
>> Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 15:51 Uhr schrieb Felix G. via Groups.Io
>> <constantlyvariable@...>:
>>>
>>> Hello Gene,
>>> exactly, that's what I am referring to: A way to move the browse mode
>>> cursor through a page without triggering events in the browser. It
>>> would feel lightning-fast, as it would only involve changing a
>>> position in an internal textual representation fully managed by NVDA
>>> in its own process space. When hitting enter or the space bar to
>>> interact with something, focus could then be brought to that object.
>>> The analogy in the sighted world is that of a touch screen: Just
>>> looking at the contents does not generate events, and is therefore not
>>> slowed down by anything the browser needs to handle.
>>> I am calling those events focus changes because technically that's
>>> what they are. Focus, in this context, is the Windows concept defined
>>> as a control's responsibility for handling keyboard input. It's hard
>>> to describe without leaving a lot of dangling terms as it's a very
>>> technical notion in Windows programming.
>>> Best,
>>> Felix
>>>
>>> Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 15:29 Uhr schrieb Gene <gsasner@...>:
>>> >
>>> > I may Have misunderstood what you want to do and I may not have the
>>> > technical knowledge to fully understand what you want changed.  Are
>>> > you
>>> > talking about being able to move through a web page and have browse
>>> > mode
>>> > just show you the page, as though you had copied it into something
>>> > like
>>> > Notepad?  In that case, you would move, but nothing would ever be
>>> > triggered on the page as you move.  But you seem to be discussing this
>>> > related to a feature that allows a person to see where the blind
>>> > person
>>> > is on the page.  If so, why are you assuming they are related?  Isn't
>>> > there already a setting to turn off this feature, used by sighted
>>> > instructors or others working with a blind person?
>>> >
>>> > Gene
>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>> > From: Gene
>>> > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 8:14 AM
>>> > To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>> > Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus
>>> >
>>> > I suspect that the JAWS cursor may see the web page text when NVDA
>>> > review doesn't.
>>> >
>>> > Gene
>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>> >
>>> > From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
>>> > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 5:06 AM
>>> > To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>> > Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus
>>> >
>>> > Probably not, but if you can explain a little more clearly when you
>>> > need
>>> > to
>>> > have it as you describe then we might be a bit wiser. Remember not
>>> > everyone
>>> > has Jaws or uses all if its features, so we may learn something here.
>>> >  Brian
>>> >
>>> > bglists@...
>>> > Sent via blueyonder.
>>> > Please address personal E-mail to:-
>>> > briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>>> > in the display name field.
>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>> > From: "Felix G." <constantlyvariable@...>
>>> > To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>> > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 9:29 AM
>>> > Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > > Hello Marcio,
>>> > > I could only find checkboxes dealing with the conditions for
>>> > > automatically switching to focus mode, but nothing related to focus
>>> > > changes. Those are completely different concepts. Are you sure we
>>> > > are
>>> > > on the same page?
>>> > > Best,
>>> > > Felix
>>> > >
>>> > > Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 09:45 Uhr schrieb marcio via Groups.Io
>>> > > <marcinhorj21@...>:
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Hello,
>>> > >> You can configure it through the Settings, which can be found at
>>> > >> the
>>> > >> NVDA
>>> > >> Menu (NVDA+N).
>>> > >> Search for browse mode, then uncheck the boxes on automatic change
>>> > >> or
>>> > >> something like that. I don't know how it should appear because I'm
>>> > >> not
>>> > >> using NVDA in English, but I hope it can help you somehow.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> ________________________________
>>> > >> Cheers,
>>> > >> Marcio
>>> > >> ________________________________
>>> > >> Where to find me:
>>> > >> My Yahoo! email
>>> > >> Add me on Skype
>>> > >> Follow me on Twitter
>>> > >> Follow or add me on Facebook
>>> > >> Ask me something on CuriousCat
>>> > >> ________________________________
>>> > >> Phone(s):
>>> > >> (+55)21-9-81615268 (Tim-RJ)
>>> > >> ________________________________
>>> > >> My WhatsApp
>>> > >> ________________________________
>>> > >> Em 21/12/2018 05:53, Felix G. escreveu:
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Hello list,
>>> > >> I'd like to ask how to keep focus from following the browse mode
>>> > >> cursor. While this behavior may often be desirable, there are many
>>> > >> instances in which it unnecessarily slows down the browsing
>>> > >> experience
>>> > >> as NVDA needs to constantly keep track of focus events, deciding
>>> > >> whether or not they are related to browse mode cursor movements.
>>> > >> With
>>> > >> unfortunate timing, NVDA sometimes fails to associate a browse mode
>>> > >> cursor action with its corresponding focus event and bounces back a
>>> > >> few lines or switches to forms mode because it thinks focus has
>>> > >> changed asynchronously on behalf of the website rather than the
>>> > >> user.
>>> > >> The sighted world analogy of moving the browse mode cursor is
>>> > >> simply
>>> > >> reading, which should not be associated with so many events in the
>>> > >> browser.
>>> > >> If anyone would like to try out how the other behavior, as also
>>> > >> seen
>>> > >> in JAWS, would feel in terms of speed: Go to a complex website and
>>> > >> then navigate in browse mode, but not using the standard arrow keys
>>> > >> but instead the review cursor (numpad 7 and numpad 9).
>>> > >> All the best,
>>> > >> Felix
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>



Tony Malykh
 

I just wrote a tiny add-on that prevents NVDA from sending focus
events to the browser.
Binary:
https://github.com/mltony/nvda-super-browser/releases/download/v0.1dev/superbrowser-0.1dev.nvda-addon
Source and description:
https://github.com/mltony/nvda-super-browser/
Press NVDA+8 to turn focus sending to browsers on and off.
It's not a production-ready add-on, as it introduces a lot of side
effects when not sending focus events. However, it'll give you an idea
how much faster and more responsive your browsing experience might
become without these focus events being sent back and forth.

On 12/21/18, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
Are you sure you have automatic switching off in NVDA? I never have browse
mode turn off when I have the automatic switching feature off. I have
repeatedly said that automatic switching should not be on by default. It is
not a setting that people should have on unless they know about it and
understand exactly how it works.

And to confuse unknowledgeable and learning users more, it automatically
switches modes when you move in some ways and it doesn't switch when you
move in other ways. People learning how to use the internet should not have
this feature confusing them and making it harder to learn.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 1:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus


I must also add that edit boxes sporadically entering forms mode is a
very big problem for me. At work I have to use a website that contains
an edit box that somehow always enters forms mode and once this
happens, the web site opens a popup dialog somewhere in the end of the
page and brings the focus there. So there is no easy way to go past
that edit box and the entire website becomes unusable. I know, this is
probably not a very screenreader-friendly website, but Jaws manages to
work fine with it somehow. I would say that this problem is one of the
major disadvantages of NVDA compared to Jaws.

On 12/21/18, Tony Malykh via Groups.Io <anton.malykh=gmail.com@groups.io>
wrote:
Hi Felix,
I experience all the same problems as you described: rubber band
browse mode cursor jumping back on large webpages, and also edit boxes
automatically entering forms mode even though I didn't ask them to.
It's good to know that this is a known issue, but this indeed seems
like a complicated issue to fix.
1. It seems to me that adding a switch like "browse mode cursor moves
system focus" would be a very useful fix in the short term. We already
have a "caret moves review cursor" switch bound to NVDA+6 - so it
seems to be just a question of adding another switch like this. I have
to say that most of the web sites work fine for me with current NVDA
behavior, and for those websites that don't work very well, this new
switch might come very handy.
2. Do you know how Jaws works around this problem? Do they not update
system focus at all when in browse mode? Or they only update it when
they realise that some other gesture might require updated focus?

Best
Tony


On 12/21/18, Felix G. <constantlyvariable@gmail.com> wrote:
Just found a ticket on this problem:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/2039
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 15:51 Uhr schrieb Felix G. via Groups.Io
<constantlyvariable=gmail.com@groups.io>:

Hello Gene,
exactly, that's what I am referring to: A way to move the browse mode
cursor through a page without triggering events in the browser. It
would feel lightning-fast, as it would only involve changing a
position in an internal textual representation fully managed by NVDA
in its own process space. When hitting enter or the space bar to
interact with something, focus could then be brought to that object.
The analogy in the sighted world is that of a touch screen: Just
looking at the contents does not generate events, and is therefore not
slowed down by anything the browser needs to handle.
I am calling those events focus changes because technically that's
what they are. Focus, in this context, is the Windows concept defined
as a control's responsibility for handling keyboard input. It's hard
to describe without leaving a lot of dangling terms as it's a very
technical notion in Windows programming.
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 15:29 Uhr schrieb Gene <gsasner@gmail.com>:

I may Have misunderstood what you want to do and I may not have the
technical knowledge to fully understand what you want changed. Are
you
talking about being able to move through a web page and have browse
mode
just show you the page, as though you had copied it into something
like
Notepad? In that case, you would move, but nothing would ever be
triggered on the page as you move. But you seem to be discussing
this
related to a feature that allows a person to see where the blind
person
is on the page. If so, why are you assuming they are related? Isn't
there already a setting to turn off this feature, used by sighted
instructors or others working with a blind person?

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 8:14 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus

I suspect that the JAWS cursor may see the web page text when NVDA
review doesn't.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 5:06 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus

Probably not, but if you can explain a little more clearly when you
need
to
have it as you describe then we might be a bit wiser. Remember not
everyone
has Jaws or uses all if its features, so we may learn something here.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Felix G." <constantlyvariable@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus


Hello Marcio,
I could only find checkboxes dealing with the conditions for
automatically switching to focus mode, but nothing related to focus
changes. Those are completely different concepts. Are you sure we
are
on the same page?
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 09:45 Uhr schrieb marcio via Groups.Io
<marcinhorj21=yahoo.com.br@groups.io>:

Hello,
You can configure it through the Settings, which can be found at
the
NVDA
Menu (NVDA+N).
Search for browse mode, then uncheck the boxes on automatic change
or
something like that. I don't know how it should appear because I'm
not
using NVDA in English, but I hope it can help you somehow.

________________________________
Cheers,
Marcio
________________________________
Where to find me:
My Yahoo! email
Add me on Skype
Follow me on Twitter
Follow or add me on Facebook
Ask me something on CuriousCat
________________________________
Phone(s):
(+55)21-9-81615268 (Tim-RJ)
________________________________
My WhatsApp
________________________________
Em 21/12/2018 05:53, Felix G. escreveu:

Hello list,
I'd like to ask how to keep focus from following the browse mode
cursor. While this behavior may often be desirable, there are many
instances in which it unnecessarily slows down the browsing
experience
as NVDA needs to constantly keep track of focus events, deciding
whether or not they are related to browse mode cursor movements.
With
unfortunate timing, NVDA sometimes fails to associate a browse
mode
cursor action with its corresponding focus event and bounces back
a
few lines or switches to forms mode because it thinks focus has
changed asynchronously on behalf of the website rather than the
user.
The sighted world analogy of moving the browse mode cursor is
simply
reading, which should not be associated with so many events in the
browser.
If anyone would like to try out how the other behavior, as also
seen
in JAWS, would feel in terms of speed: Go to a complex website and
then navigate in browse mode, but not using the standard arrow
keys
but instead the review cursor (numpad 7 and numpad 9).
All the best,
Felix


















Felix G.
 

Hello Tony,
I'm afraid I'm still seeing focus events even when they're switched
off. Time for me to look at that code, as I'd love to run that test in
a representative way.
Thanks for the inspiration,
Felix

Am Di., 25. Dez. 2018 um 20:47 Uhr schrieb Tony Malykh <anton.malykh@gmail.com>:


I just wrote a tiny add-on that prevents NVDA from sending focus
events to the browser.
Binary:
https://github.com/mltony/nvda-super-browser/releases/download/v0.1dev/superbrowser-0.1dev.nvda-addon
Source and description:
https://github.com/mltony/nvda-super-browser/
Press NVDA+8 to turn focus sending to browsers on and off.
It's not a production-ready add-on, as it introduces a lot of side
effects when not sending focus events. However, it'll give you an idea
how much faster and more responsive your browsing experience might
become without these focus events being sent back and forth.


On 12/21/18, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
Are you sure you have automatic switching off in NVDA? I never have browse
mode turn off when I have the automatic switching feature off. I have
repeatedly said that automatic switching should not be on by default. It is
not a setting that people should have on unless they know about it and
understand exactly how it works.

And to confuse unknowledgeable and learning users more, it automatically
switches modes when you move in some ways and it doesn't switch when you
move in other ways. People learning how to use the internet should not have
this feature confusing them and making it harder to learn.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 1:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus


I must also add that edit boxes sporadically entering forms mode is a
very big problem for me. At work I have to use a website that contains
an edit box that somehow always enters forms mode and once this
happens, the web site opens a popup dialog somewhere in the end of the
page and brings the focus there. So there is no easy way to go past
that edit box and the entire website becomes unusable. I know, this is
probably not a very screenreader-friendly website, but Jaws manages to
work fine with it somehow. I would say that this problem is one of the
major disadvantages of NVDA compared to Jaws.

On 12/21/18, Tony Malykh via Groups.Io <anton.malykh=gmail.com@groups.io>
wrote:
Hi Felix,
I experience all the same problems as you described: rubber band
browse mode cursor jumping back on large webpages, and also edit boxes
automatically entering forms mode even though I didn't ask them to.
It's good to know that this is a known issue, but this indeed seems
like a complicated issue to fix.
1. It seems to me that adding a switch like "browse mode cursor moves
system focus" would be a very useful fix in the short term. We already
have a "caret moves review cursor" switch bound to NVDA+6 - so it
seems to be just a question of adding another switch like this. I have
to say that most of the web sites work fine for me with current NVDA
behavior, and for those websites that don't work very well, this new
switch might come very handy.
2. Do you know how Jaws works around this problem? Do they not update
system focus at all when in browse mode? Or they only update it when
they realise that some other gesture might require updated focus?

Best
Tony


On 12/21/18, Felix G. <constantlyvariable@gmail.com> wrote:
Just found a ticket on this problem:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/2039
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 15:51 Uhr schrieb Felix G. via Groups.Io
<constantlyvariable=gmail.com@groups.io>:

Hello Gene,
exactly, that's what I am referring to: A way to move the browse mode
cursor through a page without triggering events in the browser. It
would feel lightning-fast, as it would only involve changing a
position in an internal textual representation fully managed by NVDA
in its own process space. When hitting enter or the space bar to
interact with something, focus could then be brought to that object.
The analogy in the sighted world is that of a touch screen: Just
looking at the contents does not generate events, and is therefore not
slowed down by anything the browser needs to handle.
I am calling those events focus changes because technically that's
what they are. Focus, in this context, is the Windows concept defined
as a control's responsibility for handling keyboard input. It's hard
to describe without leaving a lot of dangling terms as it's a very
technical notion in Windows programming.
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 15:29 Uhr schrieb Gene <gsasner@gmail.com>:

I may Have misunderstood what you want to do and I may not have the
technical knowledge to fully understand what you want changed. Are
you
talking about being able to move through a web page and have browse
mode
just show you the page, as though you had copied it into something
like
Notepad? In that case, you would move, but nothing would ever be
triggered on the page as you move. But you seem to be discussing
this
related to a feature that allows a person to see where the blind
person
is on the page. If so, why are you assuming they are related? Isn't
there already a setting to turn off this feature, used by sighted
instructors or others working with a blind person?

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 8:14 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus

I suspect that the JAWS cursor may see the web page text when NVDA
review doesn't.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 5:06 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus

Probably not, but if you can explain a little more clearly when you
need
to
have it as you describe then we might be a bit wiser. Remember not
everyone
has Jaws or uses all if its features, so we may learn something here.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Felix G." <constantlyvariable@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus


Hello Marcio,
I could only find checkboxes dealing with the conditions for
automatically switching to focus mode, but nothing related to focus
changes. Those are completely different concepts. Are you sure we
are
on the same page?
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 09:45 Uhr schrieb marcio via Groups.Io
<marcinhorj21=yahoo.com.br@groups.io>:

Hello,
You can configure it through the Settings, which can be found at
the
NVDA
Menu (NVDA+N).
Search for browse mode, then uncheck the boxes on automatic change
or
something like that. I don't know how it should appear because I'm
not
using NVDA in English, but I hope it can help you somehow.

________________________________
Cheers,
Marcio
________________________________
Where to find me:
My Yahoo! email
Add me on Skype
Follow me on Twitter
Follow or add me on Facebook
Ask me something on CuriousCat
________________________________
Phone(s):
(+55)21-9-81615268 (Tim-RJ)
________________________________
My WhatsApp
________________________________
Em 21/12/2018 05:53, Felix G. escreveu:

Hello list,
I'd like to ask how to keep focus from following the browse mode
cursor. While this behavior may often be desirable, there are many
instances in which it unnecessarily slows down the browsing
experience
as NVDA needs to constantly keep track of focus events, deciding
whether or not they are related to browse mode cursor movements.
With
unfortunate timing, NVDA sometimes fails to associate a browse
mode
cursor action with its corresponding focus event and bounces back
a
few lines or switches to forms mode because it thinks focus has
changed asynchronously on behalf of the website rather than the
user.
The sighted world analogy of moving the browse mode cursor is
simply
reading, which should not be associated with so many events in the
browser.
If anyone would like to try out how the other behavior, as also
seen
in JAWS, would feel in terms of speed: Go to a complex website and
then navigate in browse mode, but not using the standard arrow
keys
but instead the review cursor (numpad 7 and numpad 9).
All the best,
Felix



















Felix G.
 

Wow that's elegant. So you're monkey-patching the function that deals
with moving in browse mode so that instead of operating on the object
itself it operates on a wrapper that replaces getFocus with a no-op.
I've never seen code that so selectively patches one particular path
of calls.
Took me the better part of half an hour to understand what it does. A
pity it seems not to work, I'm still working out why.
Best,
Felix

Am Di., 25. Dez. 2018 um 21:25 Uhr schrieb Felix G. via Groups.Io
<constantlyvariable=gmail.com@groups.io>:


Hello Tony,
I'm afraid I'm still seeing focus events even when they're switched
off. Time for me to look at that code, as I'd love to run that test in
a representative way.
Thanks for the inspiration,
Felix

Am Di., 25. Dez. 2018 um 20:47 Uhr schrieb Tony Malykh <anton.malykh@gmail.com>:

I just wrote a tiny add-on that prevents NVDA from sending focus
events to the browser.
Binary:
https://github.com/mltony/nvda-super-browser/releases/download/v0.1dev/superbrowser-0.1dev.nvda-addon
Source and description:
https://github.com/mltony/nvda-super-browser/
Press NVDA+8 to turn focus sending to browsers on and off.
It's not a production-ready add-on, as it introduces a lot of side
effects when not sending focus events. However, it'll give you an idea
how much faster and more responsive your browsing experience might
become without these focus events being sent back and forth.


On 12/21/18, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
Are you sure you have automatic switching off in NVDA? I never have browse
mode turn off when I have the automatic switching feature off. I have
repeatedly said that automatic switching should not be on by default. It is
not a setting that people should have on unless they know about it and
understand exactly how it works.

And to confuse unknowledgeable and learning users more, it automatically
switches modes when you move in some ways and it doesn't switch when you
move in other ways. People learning how to use the internet should not have
this feature confusing them and making it harder to learn.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 1:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus


I must also add that edit boxes sporadically entering forms mode is a
very big problem for me. At work I have to use a website that contains
an edit box that somehow always enters forms mode and once this
happens, the web site opens a popup dialog somewhere in the end of the
page and brings the focus there. So there is no easy way to go past
that edit box and the entire website becomes unusable. I know, this is
probably not a very screenreader-friendly website, but Jaws manages to
work fine with it somehow. I would say that this problem is one of the
major disadvantages of NVDA compared to Jaws.

On 12/21/18, Tony Malykh via Groups.Io <anton.malykh=gmail.com@groups.io>
wrote:
Hi Felix,
I experience all the same problems as you described: rubber band
browse mode cursor jumping back on large webpages, and also edit boxes
automatically entering forms mode even though I didn't ask them to.
It's good to know that this is a known issue, but this indeed seems
like a complicated issue to fix.
1. It seems to me that adding a switch like "browse mode cursor moves
system focus" would be a very useful fix in the short term. We already
have a "caret moves review cursor" switch bound to NVDA+6 - so it
seems to be just a question of adding another switch like this. I have
to say that most of the web sites work fine for me with current NVDA
behavior, and for those websites that don't work very well, this new
switch might come very handy.
2. Do you know how Jaws works around this problem? Do they not update
system focus at all when in browse mode? Or they only update it when
they realise that some other gesture might require updated focus?

Best
Tony


On 12/21/18, Felix G. <constantlyvariable@gmail.com> wrote:
Just found a ticket on this problem:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/2039
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 15:51 Uhr schrieb Felix G. via Groups.Io
<constantlyvariable=gmail.com@groups.io>:

Hello Gene,
exactly, that's what I am referring to: A way to move the browse mode
cursor through a page without triggering events in the browser. It
would feel lightning-fast, as it would only involve changing a
position in an internal textual representation fully managed by NVDA
in its own process space. When hitting enter or the space bar to
interact with something, focus could then be brought to that object.
The analogy in the sighted world is that of a touch screen: Just
looking at the contents does not generate events, and is therefore not
slowed down by anything the browser needs to handle.
I am calling those events focus changes because technically that's
what they are. Focus, in this context, is the Windows concept defined
as a control's responsibility for handling keyboard input. It's hard
to describe without leaving a lot of dangling terms as it's a very
technical notion in Windows programming.
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 15:29 Uhr schrieb Gene <gsasner@gmail.com>:

I may Have misunderstood what you want to do and I may not have the
technical knowledge to fully understand what you want changed. Are
you
talking about being able to move through a web page and have browse
mode
just show you the page, as though you had copied it into something
like
Notepad? In that case, you would move, but nothing would ever be
triggered on the page as you move. But you seem to be discussing
this
related to a feature that allows a person to see where the blind
person
is on the page. If so, why are you assuming they are related? Isn't
there already a setting to turn off this feature, used by sighted
instructors or others working with a blind person?

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 8:14 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus

I suspect that the JAWS cursor may see the web page text when NVDA
review doesn't.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 5:06 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus

Probably not, but if you can explain a little more clearly when you
need
to
have it as you describe then we might be a bit wiser. Remember not
everyone
has Jaws or uses all if its features, so we may learn something here.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Felix G." <constantlyvariable@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus


Hello Marcio,
I could only find checkboxes dealing with the conditions for
automatically switching to focus mode, but nothing related to focus
changes. Those are completely different concepts. Are you sure we
are
on the same page?
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 09:45 Uhr schrieb marcio via Groups.Io
<marcinhorj21=yahoo.com.br@groups.io>:

Hello,
You can configure it through the Settings, which can be found at
the
NVDA
Menu (NVDA+N).
Search for browse mode, then uncheck the boxes on automatic change
or
something like that. I don't know how it should appear because I'm
not
using NVDA in English, but I hope it can help you somehow.

________________________________
Cheers,
Marcio
________________________________
Where to find me:
My Yahoo! email
Add me on Skype
Follow me on Twitter
Follow or add me on Facebook
Ask me something on CuriousCat
________________________________
Phone(s):
(+55)21-9-81615268 (Tim-RJ)
________________________________
My WhatsApp
________________________________
Em 21/12/2018 05:53, Felix G. escreveu:

Hello list,
I'd like to ask how to keep focus from following the browse mode
cursor. While this behavior may often be desirable, there are many
instances in which it unnecessarily slows down the browsing
experience
as NVDA needs to constantly keep track of focus events, deciding
whether or not they are related to browse mode cursor movements.
With
unfortunate timing, NVDA sometimes fails to associate a browse
mode
cursor action with its corresponding focus event and bounces back
a
few lines or switches to forms mode because it thinks focus has
changed asynchronously on behalf of the website rather than the
user.
The sighted world analogy of moving the browse mode cursor is
simply
reading, which should not be associated with so many events in the
browser.
If anyone would like to try out how the other behavior, as also
seen
in JAWS, would feel in terms of speed: Go to a complex website and
then navigate in browse mode, but not using the standard arrow
keys
but instead the review cursor (numpad 7 and numpad 9).
All the best,
Felix




















Tony Malykh
 

Hi Felix,
Yeah, that's why I like Python, you can do that sort of hacking on the fly.
Why do you think focus events are still being sent? What are the
symptoms? And what is your browser?
And also did you try focus hack mode - press NVDA+8 twice. Basically
in "Browse mode moves system focus off" only some of the setFocus
events are intercepted, such as when pressing browse mode keystrokes,
like H, G and K. Apparently if you press up or down arrow, that
triggers a different code path - and then focus hack deals with it by
intercepting more setFocus events, but it leaves the rest of NVDA
crippled. Could you confirm that focus hack works for you?

Best
Tony

On 12/25/18, Felix G. <constantlyvariable@gmail.com> wrote:
Wow that's elegant. So you're monkey-patching the function that deals
with moving in browse mode so that instead of operating on the object
itself it operates on a wrapper that replaces getFocus with a no-op.
I've never seen code that so selectively patches one particular path
of calls.
Took me the better part of half an hour to understand what it does. A
pity it seems not to work, I'm still working out why.
Best,
Felix

Am Di., 25. Dez. 2018 um 21:25 Uhr schrieb Felix G. via Groups.Io
<constantlyvariable=gmail.com@groups.io>:

Hello Tony,
I'm afraid I'm still seeing focus events even when they're switched
off. Time for me to look at that code, as I'd love to run that test in
a representative way.
Thanks for the inspiration,
Felix

Am Di., 25. Dez. 2018 um 20:47 Uhr schrieb Tony Malykh
<anton.malykh@gmail.com>:

I just wrote a tiny add-on that prevents NVDA from sending focus
events to the browser.
Binary:
https://github.com/mltony/nvda-super-browser/releases/download/v0.1dev/superbrowser-0.1dev.nvda-addon
Source and description:
https://github.com/mltony/nvda-super-browser/
Press NVDA+8 to turn focus sending to browsers on and off.
It's not a production-ready add-on, as it introduces a lot of side
effects when not sending focus events. However, it'll give you an idea
how much faster and more responsive your browsing experience might
become without these focus events being sent back and forth.


On 12/21/18, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
Are you sure you have automatic switching off in NVDA? I never have
browse
mode turn off when I have the automatic switching feature off. I
have
repeatedly said that automatic switching should not be on by default.
It is
not a setting that people should have on unless they know about it
and
understand exactly how it works.

And to confuse unknowledgeable and learning users more, it
automatically
switches modes when you move in some ways and it doesn't switch when
you
move in other ways. People learning how to use the internet should
not have
this feature confusing them and making it harder to learn.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 1:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus


I must also add that edit boxes sporadically entering forms mode is a
very big problem for me. At work I have to use a website that
contains
an edit box that somehow always enters forms mode and once this
happens, the web site opens a popup dialog somewhere in the end of
the
page and brings the focus there. So there is no easy way to go past
that edit box and the entire website becomes unusable. I know, this
is
probably not a very screenreader-friendly website, but Jaws manages
to
work fine with it somehow. I would say that this problem is one of
the
major disadvantages of NVDA compared to Jaws.

On 12/21/18, Tony Malykh via Groups.Io
<anton.malykh=gmail.com@groups.io>
wrote:
Hi Felix,
I experience all the same problems as you described: rubber band
browse mode cursor jumping back on large webpages, and also edit
boxes
automatically entering forms mode even though I didn't ask them to.
It's good to know that this is a known issue, but this indeed seems
like a complicated issue to fix.
1. It seems to me that adding a switch like "browse mode cursor
moves
system focus" would be a very useful fix in the short term. We
already
have a "caret moves review cursor" switch bound to NVDA+6 - so it
seems to be just a question of adding another switch like this. I
have
to say that most of the web sites work fine for me with current NVDA
behavior, and for those websites that don't work very well, this new
switch might come very handy.
2. Do you know how Jaws works around this problem? Do they not
update
system focus at all when in browse mode? Or they only update it when
they realise that some other gesture might require updated focus?

Best
Tony


On 12/21/18, Felix G. <constantlyvariable@gmail.com> wrote:
Just found a ticket on this problem:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/2039
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 15:51 Uhr schrieb Felix G. via Groups.Io
<constantlyvariable=gmail.com@groups.io>:

Hello Gene,
exactly, that's what I am referring to: A way to move the browse
mode
cursor through a page without triggering events in the browser. It
would feel lightning-fast, as it would only involve changing a
position in an internal textual representation fully managed by
NVDA
in its own process space. When hitting enter or the space bar to
interact with something, focus could then be brought to that
object.
The analogy in the sighted world is that of a touch screen: Just
looking at the contents does not generate events, and is therefore
not
slowed down by anything the browser needs to handle.
I am calling those events focus changes because technically that's
what they are. Focus, in this context, is the Windows concept
defined
as a control's responsibility for handling keyboard input. It's
hard
to describe without leaving a lot of dangling terms as it's a very
technical notion in Windows programming.
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 15:29 Uhr schrieb Gene
<gsasner@gmail.com>:

I may Have misunderstood what you want to do and I may not have
the
technical knowledge to fully understand what you want changed.
Are
you
talking about being able to move through a web page and have
browse
mode
just show you the page, as though you had copied it into
something
like
Notepad? In that case, you would move, but nothing would ever
be
triggered on the page as you move. But you seem to be
discussing
this
related to a feature that allows a person to see where the blind
person
is on the page. If so, why are you assuming they are related?
Isn't
there already a setting to turn off this feature, used by
sighted
instructors or others working with a blind person?

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 8:14 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus

I suspect that the JAWS cursor may see the web page text when
NVDA
review doesn't.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 5:06 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus

Probably not, but if you can explain a little more clearly when
you
need
to
have it as you describe then we might be a bit wiser. Remember
not
everyone
has Jaws or uses all if its features, so we may learn something
here.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Felix G." <constantlyvariable@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus


Hello Marcio,
I could only find checkboxes dealing with the conditions for
automatically switching to focus mode, but nothing related to
focus
changes. Those are completely different concepts. Are you sure
we
are
on the same page?
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 09:45 Uhr schrieb marcio via
Groups.Io
<marcinhorj21=yahoo.com.br@groups.io>:

Hello,
You can configure it through the Settings, which can be found
at
the
NVDA
Menu (NVDA+N).
Search for browse mode, then uncheck the boxes on automatic
change
or
something like that. I don't know how it should appear because
I'm
not
using NVDA in English, but I hope it can help you somehow.

________________________________
Cheers,
Marcio
________________________________
Where to find me:
My Yahoo! email
Add me on Skype
Follow me on Twitter
Follow or add me on Facebook
Ask me something on CuriousCat
________________________________
Phone(s):
(+55)21-9-81615268 (Tim-RJ)
________________________________
My WhatsApp
________________________________
Em 21/12/2018 05:53, Felix G. escreveu:

Hello list,
I'd like to ask how to keep focus from following the browse
mode
cursor. While this behavior may often be desirable, there are
many
instances in which it unnecessarily slows down the browsing
experience
as NVDA needs to constantly keep track of focus events,
deciding
whether or not they are related to browse mode cursor
movements.
With
unfortunate timing, NVDA sometimes fails to associate a
browse
mode
cursor action with its corresponding focus event and bounces
back
a
few lines or switches to forms mode because it thinks focus
has
changed asynchronously on behalf of the website rather than
the
user.
The sighted world analogy of moving the browse mode cursor is
simply
reading, which should not be associated with so many events in
the
browser.
If anyone would like to try out how the other behavior, as
also
seen
in JAWS, would feel in terms of speed: Go to a complex website
and
then navigate in browse mode, but not using the standard
arrow
keys
but instead the review cursor (numpad 7 and numpad 9).
All the best,
Felix






















Felix G.
 

Hello Tony,
ah now I get it. I tried the arrow keys, and saw the usual
sluggishness and elements expanding in response to focus events. I'll
try focus hack now to see what happens. If I get this correctly, it
should have a lot of side effects but block NVDA from ever setting
focus to anything.
Best,
Felix

Am Mi., 26. Dez. 2018 um 18:01 Uhr schrieb Tony Malykh <anton.malykh@gmail.com>:


Hi Felix,
Yeah, that's why I like Python, you can do that sort of hacking on the fly.
Why do you think focus events are still being sent? What are the
symptoms? And what is your browser?
And also did you try focus hack mode - press NVDA+8 twice. Basically
in "Browse mode moves system focus off" only some of the setFocus
events are intercepted, such as when pressing browse mode keystrokes,
like H, G and K. Apparently if you press up or down arrow, that
triggers a different code path - and then focus hack deals with it by
intercepting more setFocus events, but it leaves the rest of NVDA
crippled. Could you confirm that focus hack works for you?

Best
Tony


On 12/25/18, Felix G. <constantlyvariable@gmail.com> wrote:
Wow that's elegant. So you're monkey-patching the function that deals
with moving in browse mode so that instead of operating on the object
itself it operates on a wrapper that replaces getFocus with a no-op.
I've never seen code that so selectively patches one particular path
of calls.
Took me the better part of half an hour to understand what it does. A
pity it seems not to work, I'm still working out why.
Best,
Felix

Am Di., 25. Dez. 2018 um 21:25 Uhr schrieb Felix G. via Groups.Io
<constantlyvariable=gmail.com@groups.io>:

Hello Tony,
I'm afraid I'm still seeing focus events even when they're switched
off. Time for me to look at that code, as I'd love to run that test in
a representative way.
Thanks for the inspiration,
Felix

Am Di., 25. Dez. 2018 um 20:47 Uhr schrieb Tony Malykh
<anton.malykh@gmail.com>:

I just wrote a tiny add-on that prevents NVDA from sending focus
events to the browser.
Binary:
https://github.com/mltony/nvda-super-browser/releases/download/v0.1dev/superbrowser-0.1dev.nvda-addon
Source and description:
https://github.com/mltony/nvda-super-browser/
Press NVDA+8 to turn focus sending to browsers on and off.
It's not a production-ready add-on, as it introduces a lot of side
effects when not sending focus events. However, it'll give you an idea
how much faster and more responsive your browsing experience might
become without these focus events being sent back and forth.


On 12/21/18, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
Are you sure you have automatic switching off in NVDA? I never have
browse
mode turn off when I have the automatic switching feature off. I
have
repeatedly said that automatic switching should not be on by default.
It is
not a setting that people should have on unless they know about it
and
understand exactly how it works.

And to confuse unknowledgeable and learning users more, it
automatically
switches modes when you move in some ways and it doesn't switch when
you
move in other ways. People learning how to use the internet should
not have
this feature confusing them and making it harder to learn.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 1:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus


I must also add that edit boxes sporadically entering forms mode is a
very big problem for me. At work I have to use a website that
contains
an edit box that somehow always enters forms mode and once this
happens, the web site opens a popup dialog somewhere in the end of
the
page and brings the focus there. So there is no easy way to go past
that edit box and the entire website becomes unusable. I know, this
is
probably not a very screenreader-friendly website, but Jaws manages
to
work fine with it somehow. I would say that this problem is one of
the
major disadvantages of NVDA compared to Jaws.

On 12/21/18, Tony Malykh via Groups.Io
<anton.malykh=gmail.com@groups.io>
wrote:
Hi Felix,
I experience all the same problems as you described: rubber band
browse mode cursor jumping back on large webpages, and also edit
boxes
automatically entering forms mode even though I didn't ask them to.
It's good to know that this is a known issue, but this indeed seems
like a complicated issue to fix.
1. It seems to me that adding a switch like "browse mode cursor
moves
system focus" would be a very useful fix in the short term. We
already
have a "caret moves review cursor" switch bound to NVDA+6 - so it
seems to be just a question of adding another switch like this. I
have
to say that most of the web sites work fine for me with current NVDA
behavior, and for those websites that don't work very well, this new
switch might come very handy.
2. Do you know how Jaws works around this problem? Do they not
update
system focus at all when in browse mode? Or they only update it when
they realise that some other gesture might require updated focus?

Best
Tony


On 12/21/18, Felix G. <constantlyvariable@gmail.com> wrote:
Just found a ticket on this problem:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/2039
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 15:51 Uhr schrieb Felix G. via Groups.Io
<constantlyvariable=gmail.com@groups.io>:

Hello Gene,
exactly, that's what I am referring to: A way to move the browse
mode
cursor through a page without triggering events in the browser. It
would feel lightning-fast, as it would only involve changing a
position in an internal textual representation fully managed by
NVDA
in its own process space. When hitting enter or the space bar to
interact with something, focus could then be brought to that
object.
The analogy in the sighted world is that of a touch screen: Just
looking at the contents does not generate events, and is therefore
not
slowed down by anything the browser needs to handle.
I am calling those events focus changes because technically that's
what they are. Focus, in this context, is the Windows concept
defined
as a control's responsibility for handling keyboard input. It's
hard
to describe without leaving a lot of dangling terms as it's a very
technical notion in Windows programming.
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 15:29 Uhr schrieb Gene
<gsasner@gmail.com>:

I may Have misunderstood what you want to do and I may not have
the
technical knowledge to fully understand what you want changed.
Are
you
talking about being able to move through a web page and have
browse
mode
just show you the page, as though you had copied it into
something
like
Notepad? In that case, you would move, but nothing would ever
be
triggered on the page as you move. But you seem to be
discussing
this
related to a feature that allows a person to see where the blind
person
is on the page. If so, why are you assuming they are related?
Isn't
there already a setting to turn off this feature, used by
sighted
instructors or others working with a blind person?

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 8:14 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus

I suspect that the JAWS cursor may see the web page text when
NVDA
review doesn't.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 5:06 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus

Probably not, but if you can explain a little more clearly when
you
need
to
have it as you describe then we might be a bit wiser. Remember
not
everyone
has Jaws or uses all if its features, so we may learn something
here.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Felix G." <constantlyvariable@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus


Hello Marcio,
I could only find checkboxes dealing with the conditions for
automatically switching to focus mode, but nothing related to
focus
changes. Those are completely different concepts. Are you sure
we
are
on the same page?
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 09:45 Uhr schrieb marcio via
Groups.Io
<marcinhorj21=yahoo.com.br@groups.io>:

Hello,
You can configure it through the Settings, which can be found
at
the
NVDA
Menu (NVDA+N).
Search for browse mode, then uncheck the boxes on automatic
change
or
something like that. I don't know how it should appear because
I'm
not
using NVDA in English, but I hope it can help you somehow.

________________________________
Cheers,
Marcio
________________________________
Where to find me:
My Yahoo! email
Add me on Skype
Follow me on Twitter
Follow or add me on Facebook
Ask me something on CuriousCat
________________________________
Phone(s):
(+55)21-9-81615268 (Tim-RJ)
________________________________
My WhatsApp
________________________________
Em 21/12/2018 05:53, Felix G. escreveu:

Hello list,
I'd like to ask how to keep focus from following the browse
mode
cursor. While this behavior may often be desirable, there are
many
instances in which it unnecessarily slows down the browsing
experience
as NVDA needs to constantly keep track of focus events,
deciding
whether or not they are related to browse mode cursor
movements.
With
unfortunate timing, NVDA sometimes fails to associate a
browse
mode
cursor action with its corresponding focus event and bounces
back
a
few lines or switches to forms mode because it thinks focus
has
changed asynchronously on behalf of the website rather than
the
user.
The sighted world analogy of moving the browse mode cursor is
simply
reading, which should not be associated with so many events in
the
browser.
If anyone would like to try out how the other behavior, as
also
seen
in JAWS, would feel in terms of speed: Go to a complex website
and
then navigate in browse mode, but not using the standard
arrow
keys
but instead the review cursor (numpad 7 and numpad 9).
All the best,
Felix