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  2. How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Ann Byrne
 

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view. I struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor often does.
Rui Fontes
 

That is simple...
Press NVDA+NumLock7 to access ScreenReview...

Rui Fontes


Às 16:40 de 23/12/2018, Ann Byrne escreveu:

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view.  I struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor often does.
David Goldfield
 

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0. At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation. However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8 and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous, current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist WWW.David-Goldfield.Com

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:
My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view.  I struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor often does.




Joseph Lee
 

Hi,
If you're coming from JAWS to NVDA, object navigation may sound similar to
touch cursor from JAWS. In fact, they are really the same.
You can't navigate freely via JAWS cursor, or in terms of NVDA, a
combination of review cursor and screen review in more recent apps.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ann Byrne
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:40 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS
cursor

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view. I struggle
to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor often does.
Joseph Lee
 

Hi,

If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Goldfield
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

 

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0. At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation. However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8 and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous, current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist WWW.David-Goldfield.Com

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view.  I struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor often does.



Brice Mijares
 

I'd surely appreciate that. I too have a problem understanding Object navigation as I was a 18 year user of Window Eyes. Thank You.

On 12/23/2018 8:58 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.
Cheers,
Joseph
*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *David Goldfield
*Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor
Ann,
I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0. At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.
A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation. However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8 and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous, current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.
David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist WWW.David-Goldfield.Com <http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>
On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:
My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view.  I
struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor
often does.
Joseph Lee
 

Hi,
In order to understand how object navigation works, it is helpful to get an overview of how things are laid out on screen. Effectively, when you use this mode, you're navigating in and out of various controls on screen (hierarchy, if you will).
I'll wait for more requests before writing a slightly more thorough tutorial on object navigation (I think I did this before, but can't remember quite well at the moment due to volume of changes since than and in the midst of preparing for Christmas festivities).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brice Mijares
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

I'd surely appreciate that. I too have a problem understanding Object navigation as I was a 18 year user of Window Eyes. Thank You.

On 12/23/2018 8:58 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,

If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion
of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *David
Goldfield
*Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ...
JAWS cursor

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I
first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0.
At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I
had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a
while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard
arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's
method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a
window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't
want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object
navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain
program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in
Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know
that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation.
However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat
review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may
not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard
review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8
and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous,
current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next
character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen
reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist
WWW.David-Goldfield.Com <http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view. I
struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor
often does.
Gene
 

If you do that, then after you use it, Press NVDA key 1 to return to objecgt review.  If you don’t do this, some ways you move around the screen won’t work correctly. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Rui Fontes
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:45 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor
 
That is simple...
Press NVDA+NumLock7 to access ScreenReview...

Rui Fontes


Às 16:40 de 23/12/2018, Ann Byrne escreveu:
> My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view.  I
> struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor often
> does.
>
>
>
>
>


Gene
 

JAWS has another navigation method now.  I’m not sure what it is called.  It can probably see all the things you don’t see when using the JAWS cursor. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor
 

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0. At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation. However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8 and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous, current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist WWW.David-Goldfield.Com
On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:
My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view.  I struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor often does.




Pascal Lambert <coccinelle86@...>
 

Hi Joseph,
I think a tutorial on object navigation would be helpful when you have time. Many on this list would appreciate it.
Have a merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas to all.
Blessings
Pascal

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 12:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
In order to understand how object navigation works, it is helpful to get an overview of how things are laid out on screen. Effectively, when you use this mode, you're navigating in and out of various controls on screen (hierarchy, if you will).
I'll wait for more requests before writing a slightly more thorough tutorial on object navigation (I think I did this before, but can't remember quite well at the moment due to volume of changes since than and in the midst of preparing for Christmas festivities).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brice Mijares
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

I'd surely appreciate that. I too have a problem understanding Object navigation as I was a 18 year user of Window Eyes. Thank You.

On 12/23/2018 8:58 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,

If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion
of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *David
Goldfield
*Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ...
JAWS cursor

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I
first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0.
At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I
had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a
while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard
arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's
method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a
window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't
want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object
navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain
program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in
Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know
that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation.
However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat
review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may
not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard
review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8
and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous,
current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next
character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen
reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist
WWW.David-Goldfield.Com <http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view. I
struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor
often does.
Rosemarie Chavarria
 

I too would like to have a tutorial on object navigation. Merry Christmas to all on list.

On 12/23/2018 10:10 AM, Pascal Lambert wrote:
Hi Joseph,
I think a tutorial on object navigation would be helpful when you have time. Many on this list would appreciate it.
Have a merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas to all.
Blessings
Pascal

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 12:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
In order to understand how object navigation works, it is helpful to get an overview of how things are laid out on screen. Effectively, when you use this mode, you're navigating in and out of various controls on screen (hierarchy, if you will).
I'll wait for more requests before writing a slightly more thorough tutorial on object navigation (I think I did this before, but can't remember quite well at the moment due to volume of changes since than and in the midst of preparing for Christmas festivities).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brice Mijares
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

I'd surely appreciate that. I too have a problem understanding Object navigation as I was a 18 year user of Window Eyes. Thank You.

On 12/23/2018 8:58 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,

If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion
of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *David
Goldfield
*Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ...
JAWS cursor

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I
first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0.
At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I
had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a
while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard
arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's
method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a
window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't
want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object
navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain
program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in
Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know
that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation.
However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat
review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may
not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard
review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8
and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous,
current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next
character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen
reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist
WWW.David-Goldfield.Com <http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view. I
struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor
often does.
molly the blind tech lover
 

Merry Christmas, guys.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Pascal Lambert
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 1:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi Joseph,
I think a tutorial on object navigation would be helpful when you have time. Many on this list would appreciate it.
Have a merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas to all.
Blessings
Pascal

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 12:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
In order to understand how object navigation works, it is helpful to get an overview of how things are laid out on screen. Effectively, when you use this mode, you're navigating in and out of various controls on screen (hierarchy, if you will).
I'll wait for more requests before writing a slightly more thorough tutorial on object navigation (I think I did this before, but can't remember quite well at the moment due to volume of changes since than and in the midst of preparing for Christmas festivities).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brice Mijares
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

I'd surely appreciate that. I too have a problem understanding Object navigation as I was a 18 year user of Window Eyes. Thank You.

On 12/23/2018 8:58 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,

If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion
of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *David
Goldfield
*Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ...
JAWS cursor

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I
first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0.
At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I
had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a
while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard
arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's
method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a
window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't
want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object
navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain
program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in
Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know
that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation.
However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat
review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may
not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard
review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8
and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous,
current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next
character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen
reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist
WWW.David-Goldfield.Com <http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view. I
struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor
often does.
Joseph Lee
 

Hi,
The tutorial I'll be writing will be based on concepts described in the user guide, along with what I've learned over the years as an NVDA user and developer.
Cheers,
Jsoeph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Pascal Lambert
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi Joseph,
I think a tutorial on object navigation would be helpful when you have time. Many on this list would appreciate it.
Have a merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas to all.
Blessings
Pascal

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 12:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
In order to understand how object navigation works, it is helpful to get an overview of how things are laid out on screen. Effectively, when you use this mode, you're navigating in and out of various controls on screen (hierarchy, if you will).
I'll wait for more requests before writing a slightly more thorough tutorial on object navigation (I think I did this before, but can't remember quite well at the moment due to volume of changes since than and in the midst of preparing for Christmas festivities).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brice Mijares
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

I'd surely appreciate that. I too have a problem understanding Object navigation as I was a 18 year user of Window Eyes. Thank You.

On 12/23/2018 8:58 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,

If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion
of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *David
Goldfield
*Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ...
JAWS cursor

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I
first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0.
At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I
had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a
while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard
arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's
method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a
window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't
want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object
navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain
program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in
Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know
that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation.
However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat
review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may
not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard
review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8
and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous,
current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next
character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen
reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist
WWW.David-Goldfield.Com <http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view. I
struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor
often does.
Joseph Lee
 

Hi,

Yes, touch cursor, which is essential object navigation.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:50 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

 

JAWS has another navigation method now.  I’m not sure what it is called.  It can probably see all the things you don’t see when using the JAWS cursor. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:50 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

 

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0. At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation. However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8 and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous, current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist WWW.David-Goldfield.Com

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view.  I struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor often does.



Adriani Botez
 

Hey Joseph,

maybe you consider doing the tutorial with objpad and structure it along that addon. I think for most users objpad makes object navigation much easier. The object navigation as it is now implemented in NVDA is actually too less user friendly. Especially if you have parent objects with lots of siplings as it is in a browser for example.

Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 19:22
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
The tutorial I'll be writing will be based on concepts described in the user guide, along with what I've learned over the years as an NVDA user and developer.
Cheers,
Jsoeph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Pascal Lambert
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi Joseph,
I think a tutorial on object navigation would be helpful when you have time. Many on this list would appreciate it.
Have a merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas to all.
Blessings
Pascal

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 12:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
In order to understand how object navigation works, it is helpful to get an overview of how things are laid out on screen. Effectively, when you use this mode, you're navigating in and out of various controls on screen (hierarchy, if you will).
I'll wait for more requests before writing a slightly more thorough tutorial on object navigation (I think I did this before, but can't remember quite well at the moment due to volume of changes since than and in the midst of preparing for Christmas festivities).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brice Mijares
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

I'd surely appreciate that. I too have a problem understanding Object navigation as I was a 18 year user of Window Eyes. Thank You.

On 12/23/2018 8:58 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,

If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion
of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *David
Goldfield
*Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ...
JAWS cursor

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I
first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0.
At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I
had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a
while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard
arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's
method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a
window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't
want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object
navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain
program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in
Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know
that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation.
However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat
review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may
not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard
review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8
and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous,
current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next
character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen
reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist
WWW.David-Goldfield.Com <http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view. I
struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor
often does.
Joseph Lee
 

Hi,
I need evidence to suggest that ObjPad add-on makes object navigation much better. Besides, I think it would be helpful to get a high level overview of what object navigation is and how it works before talking about the add-on (what if some people do not wish to use the add-on).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hey Joseph,

maybe you consider doing the tutorial with objpad and structure it along that addon. I think for most users objpad makes object navigation much easier. The object navigation as it is now implemented in NVDA is actually too less user friendly. Especially if you have parent objects with lots of siplings as it is in a browser for example.

Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 19:22
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
The tutorial I'll be writing will be based on concepts described in the user guide, along with what I've learned over the years as an NVDA user and developer.
Cheers,
Jsoeph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Pascal Lambert
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi Joseph,
I think a tutorial on object navigation would be helpful when you have time. Many on this list would appreciate it.
Have a merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas to all.
Blessings
Pascal

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 12:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
In order to understand how object navigation works, it is helpful to get an overview of how things are laid out on screen. Effectively, when you use this mode, you're navigating in and out of various controls on screen (hierarchy, if you will).
I'll wait for more requests before writing a slightly more thorough tutorial on object navigation (I think I did this before, but can't remember quite well at the moment due to volume of changes since than and in the midst of preparing for Christmas festivities).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brice Mijares
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

I'd surely appreciate that. I too have a problem understanding Object navigation as I was a 18 year user of Window Eyes. Thank You.

On 12/23/2018 8:58 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,

If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion
of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *David
Goldfield
*Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ...
JAWS cursor

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I
first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0.
At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I
had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a
while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard
arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's
method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a
window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't
want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object
navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain
program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in
Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know
that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation.
However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat
review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may
not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard
review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8
and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous,
current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next
character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen
reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist
WWW.David-Goldfield.Com <http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view. I
struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor
often does.
Gary Metzler
 

Hi Joseph,

 

Doing that will be most helpful.  Thanks,

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 11:58 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

 

Hi,

If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Goldfield
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

 

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0. At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation. However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8 and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous, current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist WWW.David-Goldfield.Com

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view.  I struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor often does.


Adriani Botez
 

Hi,

well, the add-on simplifies object navigation for the normal user. I thought the tutorial was intended to address the normal users incl. beginners. But yes, an advanced user tutorial would ofcourse include also the principles of object hierarchy and the difference between simple and detailed object hierarchy. I don't know if this is understandable for beginners. We must bare in mind that object navigation principles can be very complex and in some cases could overwelm users. I would try to explain it as simple as possible without much developping details. Maybe two or three practical examples would bring more benefits for users than the theoretical principles behind it. But this is only my opinion.

In a second tutorial theoretical principles could be addressed, if people want it.


Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 19:46
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
I need evidence to suggest that ObjPad add-on makes object navigation much better. Besides, I think it would be helpful to get a high level overview of what object navigation is and how it works before talking about the add-on (what if some people do not wish to use the add-on).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hey Joseph,

maybe you consider doing the tutorial with objpad and structure it along that addon. I think for most users objpad makes object navigation much easier. The object navigation as it is now implemented in NVDA is actually too less user friendly. Especially if you have parent objects with lots of siplings as it is in a browser for example.

Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 19:22
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
The tutorial I'll be writing will be based on concepts described in the user guide, along with what I've learned over the years as an NVDA user and developer.
Cheers,
Jsoeph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Pascal Lambert
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi Joseph,
I think a tutorial on object navigation would be helpful when you have time. Many on this list would appreciate it.
Have a merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas to all.
Blessings
Pascal

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 12:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
In order to understand how object navigation works, it is helpful to get an overview of how things are laid out on screen. Effectively, when you use this mode, you're navigating in and out of various controls on screen (hierarchy, if you will).
I'll wait for more requests before writing a slightly more thorough tutorial on object navigation (I think I did this before, but can't remember quite well at the moment due to volume of changes since than and in the midst of preparing for Christmas festivities).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brice Mijares
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

I'd surely appreciate that. I too have a problem understanding Object navigation as I was a 18 year user of Window Eyes. Thank You.

On 12/23/2018 8:58 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,

If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion
of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *David
Goldfield
*Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ...
JAWS cursor

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I
first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0.
At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I
had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a
while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard
arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's
method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a
window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't
want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object
navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain
program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in
Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know
that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation.
However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat
review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may
not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard
review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8
and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous,
current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next
character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen
reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist
WWW.David-Goldfield.Com <http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view. I
struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor
often does.
Adriani Botez
 

The big advantage of the add-on are the unified keyboard commands. The Desktop and laptop keyboard layout approach used in NVDA is in my view outdated and actually not very user friendly.

Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Adriani Botez via Groups.Io
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 19:53
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,

well, the add-on simplifies object navigation for the normal user. I thought the tutorial was intended to address the normal users incl. beginners. But yes, an advanced user tutorial would ofcourse include also the principles of object hierarchy and the difference between simple and detailed object hierarchy. I don't know if this is understandable for beginners. We must bare in mind that object navigation principles can be very complex and in some cases could overwelm users. I would try to explain it as simple as possible without much developping details. Maybe two or three practical examples would bring more benefits for users than the theoretical principles behind it. But this is only my opinion.

In a second tutorial theoretical principles could be addressed, if people want it.


Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 19:46
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
I need evidence to suggest that ObjPad add-on makes object navigation much better. Besides, I think it would be helpful to get a high level overview of what object navigation is and how it works before talking about the add-on (what if some people do not wish to use the add-on).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hey Joseph,

maybe you consider doing the tutorial with objpad and structure it along that addon. I think for most users objpad makes object navigation much easier. The object navigation as it is now implemented in NVDA is actually too less user friendly. Especially if you have parent objects with lots of siplings as it is in a browser for example.

Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 19:22
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
The tutorial I'll be writing will be based on concepts described in the user guide, along with what I've learned over the years as an NVDA user and developer.
Cheers,
Jsoeph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Pascal Lambert
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi Joseph,
I think a tutorial on object navigation would be helpful when you have time. Many on this list would appreciate it.
Have a merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas to all.
Blessings
Pascal

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 12:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
In order to understand how object navigation works, it is helpful to get an overview of how things are laid out on screen. Effectively, when you use this mode, you're navigating in and out of various controls on screen (hierarchy, if you will).
I'll wait for more requests before writing a slightly more thorough tutorial on object navigation (I think I did this before, but can't remember quite well at the moment due to volume of changes since than and in the midst of preparing for Christmas festivities).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brice Mijares
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

I'd surely appreciate that. I too have a problem understanding Object navigation as I was a 18 year user of Window Eyes. Thank You.

On 12/23/2018 8:58 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,

If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion
of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *David
Goldfield
*Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ...
JAWS cursor

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I
first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0.
At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I
had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a
while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard
arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's
method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a
window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't
want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object
navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain
program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in
Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know
that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation.
However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat
review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may
not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard
review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8
and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous,
current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next
character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen
reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist
WWW.David-Goldfield.Com <http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view. I
struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor
often does.
ely.r@...
 

Joseph,
I agree.
Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 1:46 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
I need evidence to suggest that ObjPad add-on makes object navigation much better. Besides, I think it would be helpful to get a high level overview of what object navigation is and how it works before talking about the add-on (what if some people do not wish to use the add-on).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hey Joseph,

maybe you consider doing the tutorial with objpad and structure it along that addon. I think for most users objpad makes object navigation much easier. The object navigation as it is now implemented in NVDA is actually too less user friendly. Especially if you have parent objects with lots of siplings as it is in a browser for example.

Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 19:22
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
The tutorial I'll be writing will be based on concepts described in the user guide, along with what I've learned over the years as an NVDA user and developer.
Cheers,
Jsoeph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Pascal Lambert
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi Joseph,
I think a tutorial on object navigation would be helpful when you have time. Many on this list would appreciate it.
Have a merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas to all.
Blessings
Pascal

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 12:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
In order to understand how object navigation works, it is helpful to get an overview of how things are laid out on screen. Effectively, when you use this mode, you're navigating in and out of various controls on screen (hierarchy, if you will).
I'll wait for more requests before writing a slightly more thorough tutorial on object navigation (I think I did this before, but can't remember quite well at the moment due to volume of changes since than and in the midst of preparing for Christmas festivities).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brice Mijares
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

I'd surely appreciate that. I too have a problem understanding Object navigation as I was a 18 year user of Window Eyes. Thank You.

On 12/23/2018 8:58 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,

If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion
of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *David
Goldfield
*Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ...
JAWS cursor

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I
first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0.
At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I
had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a
while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard
arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's
method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a
window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't
want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object
navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain
program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in
Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know
that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation.
However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat
review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may
not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard
review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8
and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous,
current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next
character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen
reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist
WWW.David-Goldfield.Com <http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view. I
struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor
often does.
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