Competition was Re: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?


erik burggraaf <erik@...>
 

The key to this situation as many have said is self-interest. As a programming student, I have a lot of computers around my house. my personal preference is for Mac, but the college is using absolutely nothing but visual studio for Windows. The complete Monopoly of visual studio in the college is extremely frustrating to me. Microsoft, for all its vaunted accessibility spending, still builds apps the way they did in the early 2000. Accessibility continues to be an afterthought despite millions of dollars spent on artificial intelligence is that are supposed to make our lives better in the future. They haven't told us how we're supposed to pay for those brand new accessibility features, when we can't get jobs because we can't get access to visual studio features and SharePoint team site. VScode accessibility is under development on Windows, though Microsoft admits, it is currently ignoring accessibility on the Mack. as a person who wants very much to develop on Mac OS, I find Microsoft limited attention to accessibility on the Mac extremely irritating. Since accessibility on Windows is only slightly better, a part of me wishes Windows would simply implode and go away. As a systems technician formerly earning my bread cleaning up viruses and security threats, I learned to revile parts of the windows computing experience.


the days of high-cost accessibility are not nearly as far behind us as we would all like to believe. customers investing thousands of dollars each overtime had a right to feel proprietary about the products they bought, even if they never saw the money they paid in. 即日factor in the extremely preferential nature of speech synthesizers and Braille displays used for screen reader output, and the politics of screen reader manufacturers, and you had a real soup of excessive loyalties. That situation still holds true today, even though there are far fewer of those high-cost screen readers than there once were. the fact is, customers are now far more in control of what they spend, and they see much more of the money, then they did in the days of expensive screen readers.

despite the idealistic belief of many learned people who ought to know better, there is very little evidence to support the idea that competition was good for screen reader manufacturers, and evidence in abundance to support the idea that it was never good. In fact it was bad. Over the last 20 years, competition in the screen reader market has been based not on quality, performance, and features, but on exclusivity agreements, and corporate litigation. accessibility continue to be an afterthought, and only the manufacturer with the right high-level access in any given situation could develop accessibility for a given product. Wait times for accessibility to off-the-shelf products could you take years. Software developers used their products to try to freeze out hardware manufacturers.

I wish Jaws would die, because it's expensive, proprietary, unnecessary, and I revile the politics of the people who develop it. Competition between nvda and Jaws is not good for customers, and it's not good for the market. obsolescence of jaws has major ramifications for companies such as Banks using old proprietary systems, but I think it would be a mistake to feel too Sorry for those types of companies. increased adoption of nvda with the right advocacy could lead to higher employment, better education and training, and better design practices for commercial software. we are all good and valuable things, not merely for blind people, but for businesses, infrastructures, economies, and society in general.

a competition between nvda and narrator may have some positive ramifications, especially on the narrator side, but the sooner freedom scientific gets out of the way, the better.

Best,

Th
erik

On February 3, 2019 9:43:12 AM "Felix G." <constantlyvariable@...> wrote:

Hi,
here's what I don't get: Why would some users of one screen reader
actually wish for another screen reader to disappear? I can understand
when a company decides it would be somewhat cool if the competition
didn't exist. But users? Why would I, for instance, as a Mac user want
Windows to die? Wouldn't it be logical for a JAWS user to be grateful
that NVDA exists because competition improves quality?
Best,
Felix

Am So., 3. Feb. 2019 um 14:35 Uhr schrieb molly the blind tech lover
<brainardmolly@...>:

Hi.

I agree with everything you say.

I love NVDA.

I am so grateful that it exists as it has changed my life for the better. I am so grateful to all the NVDA developers and contributors.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Clare Page
Sent: Sunday, February 3, 2019 8:26 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?



Hi!

Reading this thread about the rumours of NVDA dying, I couldn’t help thinking: would I be right in guessing that the people who mentioned this don’t use NVDA themselves? Over the years I’ve come across several users of other screenreaders who look down on NVDA for different reasons, so maybe the talk of the death of NVDA was wishful thinking on their part, hoping we’d all flock to use whatever screenreaders they have. Very cynical, I know, but I couldn’t get that thought out of my mind, that’s why I expressed it here; And no, I have no intention of being nasty to users of other screenreaders, I have simply noticed that some users of any screenreader or system, sometimes just a tiny minority, are quick to look down on anyone who doesn’t use the same thing.

However, I’m convinced that there’s plenty of life in NVDA as we discuss this: look how hard the developers are working to not only keep this screenreader alive, but also to improve it! We’re all grateful to them, I know, and I wish to add: keep up the good work! And I’m not just saying that to keep the rumour-mongers quiet, we want this excellent screenreader to keep existing for a long time to come. It may have its imperfections, every screenreader does, but it would only be worth killing off if it’s no good, and it’s exactly the opposite, an excellent way to access the Windows operating system for many blind people. Long live NVDA!

Bye for now!

From Clare



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sharni-Lee Ward
Sent: dimanche 3 février 2019 07:32
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?



As far as I could tell, all of the people concerned were on Windows 10, not XP.



I know I'll have to shift away from 7 eventually, but hopefully not any time this year. I will when I must, but as long as the next release of NVDA will work on my Win 7 system, I'll be content.

On 3/02/2019 4:33 pm, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Those rumors were probably from who have a Windows 10 phobia. Now there are performance issues with people trying to run the latest version of NVDA on Windows XP or earlier. That is flatly stated on this and other NVDA lists and websites.



Folks, you have to move on past XP and eventually even Windows 7. I am very conservative when it comes to changing a system that works well. I had an XP system at least one of the 3 systems I own until early 2018, but I now have 2 Windows 10 systems playing perfectly with NVDA and I feel a bit better than with JAWS latest release. I still don't like JAWS identifying the Windows Explorer windows as multi select list boxes and reading every item in the displayed columns. Even with the updated scripts for Thunderbird, JAWS still seems sluggish and clunky when compared to NVDA in that program.



So there you have it--just my 2 cents.



On 2/2/2019 10:36 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:

It wasn't on an NVDA skype group, just a misc one for someone's live streams where all sorts of topics come up. There were some complaints about performance issues a couple days ago, and that was where the sentiments I related were mentioned. It upset me quite a bit to hear such things...

On 3/02/2019 1:42 pm, Lino Morales wrote:

I don’t know where the hell you heard that on the Skype group. Are you on the Skype English group? I’ve not seen any such messages about NVDA going down hill since James left. Mike, Quenton, and Rafe Turner are doing a fine job down under along with the devs who are part of the NVDA add-ons community.



Sent from Mail for Windows 10



________________________________

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Sharni-Lee Ward <sharni-lee.ward@...>
Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2019 8:41:06 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?



Hi,


I haven't updated NVDA since 2018.1 due to issues that seemed to crop up
around every release. Now I'm hearing from others in a Skype group I'm a
member of that NVDA has been going downhill since Jamie left the project
and it's going to die outright soon because it can't keep up with
competition.


NVDA has been my screen-reader of choice since I discovered it in late
2011 and I don't want it to be forever lost. I can't donate right now,
and I'm not a programmer, but is there anything I can do to help? This
project has been a faithful friend to me and I want to fight for it in
any way I possibly can.


--

They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.

They ask: "How Happy are You?"

I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Devin Prater
 

Eric, thanks so much for this enlightening message.

On Feb 6, 2019, at 9:34 AM, erik burggraaf <erik@...> wrote:

The key to this situation as many have said is self-interest. As a programming student, I have a lot of computers around my house. my personal preference is for Mac, but the college is using absolutely nothing but visual studio for Windows. The complete Monopoly of visual studio in the college is extremely frustrating to me. Microsoft, for all its vaunted accessibility spending, still builds apps the way they did in the early 2000. Accessibility continues to be an afterthought despite millions of dollars spent on artificial intelligence is that are supposed to make our lives better in the future. They haven't told us how we're supposed to pay for those brand new accessibility features, when we can't get jobs because we can't get access to visual studio features and SharePoint team site. VScode accessibility is under development on Windows, though Microsoft admits, it is currently ignoring accessibility on the Mack. as a person who wants very much to develop on Mac OS, I find Microsoft limited attention to accessibility on the Mac extremely irritating. Since accessibility on Windows is only slightly better, a part of me wishes Windows would simply implode and go away. As a systems technician formerly earning my bread cleaning up viruses and security threats, I learned to revile parts of the windows computing experience.


the days of high-cost accessibility are not nearly as far behind us as we would all like to believe. customers investing thousands of dollars each overtime had a right to feel proprietary about the products they bought, even if they never saw the money they paid in. 即日factor in the extremely preferential nature of speech synthesizers and Braille displays used for screen reader output, and the politics of screen reader manufacturers, and you had a real soup of excessive loyalties. That situation still holds true today, even though there are far fewer of those high-cost screen readers than there once were. the fact is, customers are now far more in control of what they spend, and they see much more of the money, then they did in the days of expensive screen readers.

despite the idealistic belief of many learned people who ought to know better, there is very little evidence to support the idea that competition was good for screen reader manufacturers, and evidence in abundance to support the idea that it was never good. In fact it was bad. Over the last 20 years, competition in the screen reader market has been based not on quality, performance, and features, but on exclusivity agreements, and corporate litigation. accessibility continue to be an afterthought, and only the manufacturer with the right high-level access in any given situation could develop accessibility for a given product. Wait times for accessibility to off-the-shelf products could you take years. Software developers used their products to try to freeze out hardware manufacturers.

I wish Jaws would die, because it's expensive, proprietary, unnecessary, and I revile the politics of the people who develop it. Competition between nvda and Jaws is not good for customers, and it's not good for the market. obsolescence of jaws has major ramifications for companies such as Banks using old proprietary systems, but I think it would be a mistake to feel too Sorry for those types of companies. increased adoption of nvda with the right advocacy could lead to higher employment, better education and training, and better design practices for commercial software. we are all good and valuable things, not merely for blind people, but for businesses, infrastructures, economies, and society in general.

a competition between nvda and narrator may have some positive ramifications, especially on the narrator side, but the sooner freedom scientific gets out of the way, the better.

Best,

Th
erik


On February 3, 2019 9:43:12 AM "Felix G." <constantlyvariable@...> wrote:

Hi,
here's what I don't get: Why would some users of one screen reader
actually wish for another screen reader to disappear? I can understand
when a company decides it would be somewhat cool if the competition
didn't exist. But users? Why would I, for instance, as a Mac user want
Windows to die? Wouldn't it be logical for a JAWS user to be grateful
that NVDA exists because competition improves quality?
Best,
Felix

Am So., 3. Feb. 2019 um 14:35 Uhr schrieb molly the blind tech lover
<brainardmolly@...>:

Hi.

I agree with everything you say.

I love NVDA.

I am so grateful that it exists as it has changed my life for the better. I am so grateful to all the NVDA developers and contributors.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Clare Page
Sent: Sunday, February 3, 2019 8:26 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?



Hi!

Reading this thread about the rumours of NVDA dying, I couldn’t help thinking: would I be right in guessing that the people who mentioned this don’t use NVDA themselves? Over the years I’ve come across several users of other screenreaders who look down on NVDA for different reasons, so maybe the talk of the death of NVDA was wishful thinking on their part, hoping we’d all flock to use whatever screenreaders they have. Very cynical, I know, but I couldn’t get that thought out of my mind, that’s why I expressed it here; And no, I have no intention of being nasty to users of other screenreaders, I have simply noticed that some users of any screenreader or system, sometimes just a tiny minority, are quick to look down on anyone who doesn’t use the same thing.

However, I’m convinced that there’s plenty of life in NVDA as we discuss this: look how hard the developers are working to not only keep this screenreader alive, but also to improve it! We’re all grateful to them, I know, and I wish to add: keep up the good work! And I’m not just saying that to keep the rumour-mongers quiet, we want this excellent screenreader to keep existing for a long time to come. It may have its imperfections, every screenreader does, but it would only be worth killing off if it’s no good, and it’s exactly the opposite, an excellent way to access the Windows operating system for many blind people. Long live NVDA!

Bye for now!

From Clare



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sharni-Lee Ward
Sent: dimanche 3 février 2019 07:32
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?



As far as I could tell, all of the people concerned were on Windows 10, not XP.



I know I'll have to shift away from 7 eventually, but hopefully not any time this year. I will when I must, but as long as the next release of NVDA will work on my Win 7 system, I'll be content.

On 3/02/2019 4:33 pm, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Those rumors were probably from who have a Windows 10 phobia. Now there are performance issues with people trying to run the latest version of NVDA on Windows XP or earlier. That is flatly stated on this and other NVDA lists and websites.



Folks, you have to move on past XP and eventually even Windows 7. I am very conservative when it comes to changing a system that works well. I had an XP system at least one of the 3 systems I own until early 2018, but I now have 2 Windows 10 systems playing perfectly with NVDA and I feel a bit better than with JAWS latest release. I still don't like JAWS identifying the Windows Explorer windows as multi select list boxes and reading every item in the displayed columns. Even with the updated scripts for Thunderbird, JAWS still seems sluggish and clunky when compared to NVDA in that program.



So there you have it--just my 2 cents.



On 2/2/2019 10:36 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:

It wasn't on an NVDA skype group, just a misc one for someone's live streams where all sorts of topics come up. There were some complaints about performance issues a couple days ago, and that was where the sentiments I related were mentioned. It upset me quite a bit to hear such things...

On 3/02/2019 1:42 pm, Lino Morales wrote:

I don’t know where the hell you heard that on the Skype group. Are you on the Skype English group? I’ve not seen any such messages about NVDA going down hill since James left. Mike, Quenton, and Rafe Turner are doing a fine job down under along with the devs who are part of the NVDA add-ons community.



Sent from Mail for Windows 10



________________________________

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Sharni-Lee Ward <sharni-lee.ward@...>
Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2019 8:41:06 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?



Hi,


I haven't updated NVDA since 2018.1 due to issues that seemed to crop up
around every release. Now I'm hearing from others in a Skype group I'm a
member of that NVDA has been going downhill since Jamie left the project
and it's going to die outright soon because it can't keep up with
competition.


NVDA has been my screen-reader of choice since I discovered it in late
2011 and I don't want it to be forever lost. I can't donate right now,
and I'm not a programmer, but is there anything I can do to help? This
project has been a faithful friend to me and I want to fight for it in
any way I possibly can.


--

They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.

They ask: "How Happy are You?"

I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"







Brian's Mail list account
 

Not sure how I feel about this myself. To me there seems to be one issue nobody mentions at all. Should we not expect every company to design software so that a manufacturers accessibility tools can work with them out of the box. The problem as you state is a catch 22 one in that we have no access experts working for software companies because we have inaccessible tools to make the software with!

I think the only real reason Jaws still is around is because of attitudes of companies who need or are forced by local laws to have accessible in house software to allow them to employ disabled people.Its expensive but if they actually sent the money they spent on Jaws scripting and the program to invest in a similar thing for nvda. it would actually be cheaper for them. It would be really nice to find as well that Jenny at Microsoft had the clout to say, you cannot release this software as its not been written using Windows API.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "erik burggraaf" <erik@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2019 3:34 PM
Subject: Competition was Re: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?


The key to this situation as many have said is self-interest. As a programming student, I have a lot of computers around my house. my personal preference is for Mac, but the college is using absolutely nothing but visual studio for Windows. The complete Monopoly of visual studio in the college is extremely frustrating to me. Microsoft, for all its vaunted accessibility spending, still builds apps the way they did in the early 2000. Accessibility continues to be an afterthought despite millions of dollars spent on artificial intelligence is that are supposed to make our lives better in the future. They haven't told us how we're supposed to pay for those brand new accessibility features, when we can't get jobs because we can't get access to visual studio features and SharePoint team site. VScode accessibility is under development on Windows, though Microsoft admits, it is currently ignoring accessibility on the Mack. as a person who wants very much to develop on Mac OS, I find Microsoft limited attention to accessibility on the Mac extremely irritating. Since accessibility on Windows is only slightly better, a part of me wishes Windows would simply implode and go away. As a systems technician formerly earning my bread cleaning up viruses and security threats, I learned to revile parts of the windows computing experience.


the days of high-cost accessibility are not nearly as far behind us as we would all like to believe. customers investing thousands of dollars each overtime had a right to feel proprietary about the products they bought, even if they never saw the money they paid in. 即日factor in the extremely preferential nature of speech synthesizers and Braille displays used for screen reader output, and the politics of screen reader manufacturers, and you had a real soup of excessive loyalties. That situation still holds true today, even though there are far fewer of those high-cost screen readers than there once were. the fact is, customers are now far more in control of what they spend, and they see much more of the money, then they did in the days of expensive screen readers.

despite the idealistic belief of many learned people who ought to know better, there is very little evidence to support the idea that competition was good for screen reader manufacturers, and evidence in abundance to support the idea that it was never good. In fact it was bad. Over the last 20 years, competition in the screen reader market has been based not on quality, performance, and features, but on exclusivity agreements, and corporate litigation. accessibility continue to be an afterthought, and only the manufacturer with the right high-level access in any given situation could develop accessibility for a given product. Wait times for accessibility to off-the-shelf products could you take years. Software developers used their products to try to freeze out hardware manufacturers.

I wish Jaws would die, because it's expensive, proprietary, unnecessary, and I revile the politics of the people who develop it. Competition between nvda and Jaws is not good for customers, and it's not good for the market. obsolescence of jaws has major ramifications for companies such as Banks using old proprietary systems, but I think it would be a mistake to feel too Sorry for those types of companies. increased adoption of nvda with the right advocacy could lead to higher employment, better education and training, and better design practices for commercial software. we are all good and valuable things, not merely for blind people, but for businesses, infrastructures, economies, and society in general.

a competition between nvda and narrator may have some positive ramifications, especially on the narrator side, but the sooner freedom scientific gets out of the way, the better.

Best,

Th
erik


On February 3, 2019 9:43:12 AM "Felix G." <constantlyvariable@...> wrote:

Hi,
here's what I don't get: Why would some users of one screen reader
actually wish for another screen reader to disappear? I can understand
when a company decides it would be somewhat cool if the competition
didn't exist. But users? Why would I, for instance, as a Mac user want
Windows to die? Wouldn't it be logical for a JAWS user to be grateful
that NVDA exists because competition improves quality?
Best,
Felix

Am So., 3. Feb. 2019 um 14:35 Uhr schrieb molly the blind tech lover
<brainardmolly@...>:

Hi.

I agree with everything you say.

I love NVDA.

I am so grateful that it exists as it has changed my life for the better. I am so grateful to all the NVDA developers and contributors.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Clare Page
Sent: Sunday, February 3, 2019 8:26 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?



Hi!

Reading this thread about the rumours of NVDA dying, I couldn’t help thinking: would I be right in guessing that the people who mentioned this don’t use NVDA themselves? Over the years I’ve come across several users of other screenreaders who look down on NVDA for different reasons, so maybe the talk of the death of NVDA was wishful thinking on their part, hoping we’d all flock to use whatever screenreaders they have. Very cynical, I know, but I couldn’t get that thought out of my mind, that’s why I expressed it here; And no, I have no intention of being nasty to users of other screenreaders, I have simply noticed that some users of any screenreader or system, sometimes just a tiny minority, are quick to look down on anyone who doesn’t use the same thing.

However, I’m convinced that there’s plenty of life in NVDA as we discuss this: look how hard the developers are working to not only keep this screenreader alive, but also to improve it! We’re all grateful to them, I know, and I wish to add: keep up the good work! And I’m not just saying that to keep the rumour-mongers quiet, we want this excellent screenreader to keep existing for a long time to come. It may have its imperfections, every screenreader does, but it would only be worth killing off if it’s no good, and it’s exactly the opposite, an excellent way to access the Windows operating system for many blind people. Long live NVDA!

Bye for now!

From Clare



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sharni-Lee Ward
Sent: dimanche 3 février 2019 07:32
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?



As far as I could tell, all of the people concerned were on Windows 10, not XP.



I know I'll have to shift away from 7 eventually, but hopefully not any time this year. I will when I must, but as long as the next release of NVDA will work on my Win 7 system, I'll be content.

On 3/02/2019 4:33 pm, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Those rumors were probably from who have a Windows 10 phobia. Now there are performance issues with people trying to run the latest version of NVDA on Windows XP or earlier. That is flatly stated on this and other NVDA lists and websites.



Folks, you have to move on past XP and eventually even Windows 7. I am very conservative when it comes to changing a system that works well. I had an XP system at least one of the 3 systems I own until early 2018, but I now have 2 Windows 10 systems playing perfectly with NVDA and I feel a bit better than with JAWS latest release. I still don't like JAWS identifying the Windows Explorer windows as multi select list boxes and reading every item in the displayed columns. Even with the updated scripts for Thunderbird, JAWS still seems sluggish and clunky when compared to NVDA in that program.



So there you have it--just my 2 cents.



On 2/2/2019 10:36 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:

It wasn't on an NVDA skype group, just a misc one for someone's live streams where all sorts of topics come up. There were some complaints about performance issues a couple days ago, and that was where the sentiments I related were mentioned. It upset me quite a bit to hear such things...

On 3/02/2019 1:42 pm, Lino Morales wrote:

I don’t know where the hell you heard that on the Skype group. Are you on the Skype English group? I’ve not seen any such messages about NVDA going down hill since James left. Mike, Quenton, and Rafe Turner are doing a fine job down under along with the devs who are part of the NVDA add-ons community.



Sent from Mail for Windows 10



________________________________

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Sharni-Lee Ward <sharni-lee.ward@...>
Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2019 8:41:06 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?



Hi,


I haven't updated NVDA since 2018.1 due to issues that seemed to crop up
around every release. Now I'm hearing from others in a Skype group I'm a
member of that NVDA has been going downhill since Jamie left the project
and it's going to die outright soon because it can't keep up with
competition.


NVDA has been my screen-reader of choice since I discovered it in late
2011 and I don't want it to be forever lost. I can't donate right now,
and I'm not a programmer, but is there anything I can do to help? This
project has been a faithful friend to me and I want to fight for it in
any way I possibly can.


--

They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.

They ask: "How Happy are You?"

I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"







Sile
 

And then there’s the whole debate about The difference between what is technically accessible and what is practically useable. I’ve been having this debate with Microsoft for years. Even if everything conforms to current WC3 standards, for example, it doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s easy to use the resulting webpage.

Sile

On Feb 15, 2019, at 4:13 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...> wrote:

Not sure how I feel about this myself. To me there seems to be one issue nobody mentions at all. Should we not expect every company to design software so that a manufacturers accessibility tools can work with them out of the box. The problem as you state is a catch 22 one in that we have no access experts working for software companies because we have inaccessible tools to make the software with!

I think the only real reason Jaws still is around is because of attitudes of companies who need or are forced by local laws to have accessible in house software to allow them to employ disabled people.Its expensive but if they actually sent the money they spent on Jaws scripting and the program to invest in a similar thing for nvda. it would actually be cheaper for them. It would be really nice to find as well that Jenny at Microsoft had the clout to say, you cannot release this software as its not been written using Windows API.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "erik burggraaf" <erik@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2019 3:34 PM
Subject: Competition was Re: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?


The key to this situation as many have said is self-interest. As a programming student, I have a lot of computers around my house. my personal preference is for Mac, but the college is using absolutely nothing but visual studio for Windows. The complete Monopoly of visual studio in the college is extremely frustrating to me. Microsoft, for all its vaunted accessibility spending, still builds apps the way they did in the early 2000. Accessibility continues to be an afterthought despite millions of dollars spent on artificial intelligence is that are supposed to make our lives better in the future. They haven't told us how we're supposed to pay for those brand new accessibility features, when we can't get jobs because we can't get access to visual studio features and SharePoint team site. VScode accessibility is under development on Windows, though Microsoft admits, it is currently ignoring accessibility on the Mack. as a person who wants very much to develop on Mac OS, I find Microsoft limited attention to accessibility on the Mac extremely irritating. Since accessibility on Windows is only slightly better, a part of me wishes Windows would simply implode and go away. As a systems technician formerly earning my bread cleaning up viruses and security threats, I learned to revile parts of the windows computing experience.


the days of high-cost accessibility are not nearly as far behind us as we would all like to believe. customers investing thousands of dollars each overtime had a right to feel proprietary about the products they bought, even if they never saw the money they paid in. 即日factor in the extremely preferential nature of speech synthesizers and Braille displays used for screen reader output, and the politics of screen reader manufacturers, and you had a real soup of excessive loyalties. That situation still holds true today, even though there are far fewer of those high-cost screen readers than there once were. the fact is, customers are now far more in control of what they spend, and they see much more of the money, then they did in the days of expensive screen readers.

despite the idealistic belief of many learned people who ought to know better, there is very little evidence to support the idea that competition was good for screen reader manufacturers, and evidence in abundance to support the idea that it was never good. In fact it was bad. Over the last 20 years, competition in the screen reader market has been based not on quality, performance, and features, but on exclusivity agreements, and corporate litigation. accessibility continue to be an afterthought, and only the manufacturer with the right high-level access in any given situation could develop accessibility for a given product. Wait times for accessibility to off-the-shelf products could you take years. Software developers used their products to try to freeze out hardware manufacturers.

I wish Jaws would die, because it's expensive, proprietary, unnecessary, and I revile the politics of the people who develop it. Competition between nvda and Jaws is not good for customers, and it's not good for the market. obsolescence of jaws has major ramifications for companies such as Banks using old proprietary systems, but I think it would be a mistake to feel too Sorry for those types of companies. increased adoption of nvda with the right advocacy could lead to higher employment, better education and training, and better design practices for commercial software. we are all good and valuable things, not merely for blind people, but for businesses, infrastructures, economies, and society in general.

a competition between nvda and narrator may have some positive ramifications, especially on the narrator side, but the sooner freedom scientific gets out of the way, the better.

Best,

Th
erik


On February 3, 2019 9:43:12 AM "Felix G." <constantlyvariable@...> wrote:

Hi,
here's what I don't get: Why would some users of one screen reader
actually wish for another screen reader to disappear? I can understand
when a company decides it would be somewhat cool if the competition
didn't exist. But users? Why would I, for instance, as a Mac user want
Windows to die? Wouldn't it be logical for a JAWS user to be grateful
that NVDA exists because competition improves quality?
Best,
Felix

Am So., 3. Feb. 2019 um 14:35 Uhr schrieb molly the blind tech lover
<brainardmolly@...>:

Hi.

I agree with everything you say.

I love NVDA.

I am so grateful that it exists as it has changed my life for the better. I am so grateful to all the NVDA developers and contributors.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Clare Page
Sent: Sunday, February 3, 2019 8:26 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?



Hi!

Reading this thread about the rumours of NVDA dying, I couldn’t help thinking: would I be right in guessing that the people who mentioned this don’t use NVDA themselves? Over the years I’ve come across several users of other screenreaders who look down on NVDA for different reasons, so maybe the talk of the death of NVDA was wishful thinking on their part, hoping we’d all flock to use whatever screenreaders they have. Very cynical, I know, but I couldn’t get that thought out of my mind, that’s why I expressed it here; And no, I have no intention of being nasty to users of other screenreaders, I have simply noticed that some users of any screenreader or system, sometimes just a tiny minority, are quick to look down on anyone who doesn’t use the same thing.

However, I’m convinced that there’s plenty of life in NVDA as we discuss this: look how hard the developers are working to not only keep this screenreader alive, but also to improve it! We’re all grateful to them, I know, and I wish to add: keep up the good work! And I’m not just saying that to keep the rumour-mongers quiet, we want this excellent screenreader to keep existing for a long time to come. It may have its imperfections, every screenreader does, but it would only be worth killing off if it’s no good, and it’s exactly the opposite, an excellent way to access the Windows operating system for many blind people. Long live NVDA!

Bye for now!

From Clare



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sharni-Lee Ward
Sent: dimanche 3 février 2019 07:32
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?



As far as I could tell, all of the people concerned were on Windows 10, not XP.



I know I'll have to shift away from 7 eventually, but hopefully not any time this year. I will when I must, but as long as the next release of NVDA will work on my Win 7 system, I'll be content.

On 3/02/2019 4:33 pm, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Those rumors were probably from who have a Windows 10 phobia. Now there are performance issues with people trying to run the latest version of NVDA on Windows XP or earlier. That is flatly stated on this and other NVDA lists and websites.



Folks, you have to move on past XP and eventually even Windows 7. I am very conservative when it comes to changing a system that works well. I had an XP system at least one of the 3 systems I own until early 2018, but I now have 2 Windows 10 systems playing perfectly with NVDA and I feel a bit better than with JAWS latest release. I still don't like JAWS identifying the Windows Explorer windows as multi select list boxes and reading every item in the displayed columns. Even with the updated scripts for Thunderbird, JAWS still seems sluggish and clunky when compared to NVDA in that program.



So there you have it--just my 2 cents.



On 2/2/2019 10:36 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:

It wasn't on an NVDA skype group, just a misc one for someone's live streams where all sorts of topics come up. There were some complaints about performance issues a couple days ago, and that was where the sentiments I related were mentioned. It upset me quite a bit to hear such things...

On 3/02/2019 1:42 pm, Lino Morales wrote:

I don’t know where the hell you heard that on the Skype group. Are you on the Skype English group? I’ve not seen any such messages about NVDA going down hill since James left. Mike, Quenton, and Rafe Turner are doing a fine job down under along with the devs who are part of the NVDA add-ons community.



Sent from Mail for Windows 10



________________________________

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Sharni-Lee Ward <sharni-lee.ward@...>
Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2019 8:41:06 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?



Hi,


I haven't updated NVDA since 2018.1 due to issues that seemed to crop up
around every release. Now I'm hearing from others in a Skype group I'm a
member of that NVDA has been going downhill since Jamie left the project
and it's going to die outright soon because it can't keep up with
competition.


NVDA has been my screen-reader of choice since I discovered it in late
2011 and I don't want it to be forever lost. I can't donate right now,
and I'm not a programmer, but is there anything I can do to help? This
project has been a faithful friend to me and I want to fight for it in
any way I possibly can.


--

They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.

They ask: "How Happy are You?"

I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"








Brian's Mail list account
 

Web sites are a whole other subject. Yes you can have a web site which is so busy that nobody feels happy using it. Even sighted people
Or#

You can have so many advertising streams added from all over the place with nobody checking if their content is going to screw up the good work of the site designer.
or
You can have so many clever effects on a page that really needs to be fast and easy that nearly everyone clicks away.
All commerce and form filling sites need a new standard. The more boring the better standard with all titles in the same place no picture links etc and normal form fields for everything but personal data like passwords and card details.

There is no need for pretty sliding graphics and general clutter with every changing edit field hints drawing the focus away from that place, no tickers on the bottom or carousels of adverts running while you try to fill it in.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sile via Groups.Io" <somodhrain@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2019 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: Competition was Re: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?


And then there’s the whole debate about The difference between what is technically accessible and what is practically useable. I’ve been having this debate with Microsoft for years. Even if everything conforms to current WC3 standards, for example, it doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s easy to use the resulting webpage.

Sile
On Feb 15, 2019, at 4:13 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...> wrote:

Not sure how I feel about this myself. To me there seems to be one issue nobody mentions at all. Should we not expect every company to design software so that a manufacturers accessibility tools can work with them out of the box. The problem as you state is a catch 22 one in that we have no access experts working for software companies because we have inaccessible tools to make the software with!

I think the only real reason Jaws still is around is because of attitudes of companies who need or are forced by local laws to have accessible in house software to allow them to employ disabled people.Its expensive but if they actually sent the money they spent on Jaws scripting and the program to invest in a similar thing for nvda. it would actually be cheaper for them. It would be really nice to find as well that Jenny at Microsoft had the clout to say, you cannot release this software as its not been written using Windows API.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "erik burggraaf" <erik@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2019 3:34 PM
Subject: Competition was Re: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?


The key to this situation as many have said is self-interest. As a programming student, I have a lot of computers around my house. my personal preference is for Mac, but the college is using absolutely nothing but visual studio for Windows. The complete Monopoly of visual studio in the college is extremely frustrating to me. Microsoft, for all its vaunted accessibility spending, still builds apps the way they did in the early 2000. Accessibility continues to be an afterthought despite millions of dollars spent on artificial intelligence is that are supposed to make our lives better in the future. They haven't told us how we're supposed to pay for those brand new accessibility features, when we can't get jobs because we can't get access to visual studio features and SharePoint team site. VScode accessibility is under development on Windows, though Microsoft admits, it is currently ignoring accessibility on the Mack. as a person who wants very much to develop on Mac OS, I find Microsoft limited attention to accessibility on the Mac extremely irritating. Since accessibility on Windows is only slightly better, a part of me wishes Windows would simply implode and go away. As a systems technician formerly earning my bread cleaning up viruses and security threats, I learned to revile parts of the windows computing experience.


the days of high-cost accessibility are not nearly as far behind us as we would all like to believe. customers investing thousands of dollars each overtime had a right to feel proprietary about the products they bought, even if they never saw the money they paid in. 即日factor in the extremely preferential nature of speech synthesizers and Braille displays used for screen reader output, and the politics of screen reader manufacturers, and you had a real soup of excessive loyalties. That situation still holds true today, even though there are far fewer of those high-cost screen readers than there once were. the fact is, customers are now far more in control of what they spend, and they see much more of the money, then they did in the days of expensive screen readers.

despite the idealistic belief of many learned people who ought to know better, there is very little evidence to support the idea that competition was good for screen reader manufacturers, and evidence in abundance to support the idea that it was never good. In fact it was bad. Over the last 20 years, competition in the screen reader market has been based not on quality, performance, and features, but on exclusivity agreements, and corporate litigation. accessibility continue to be an afterthought, and only the manufacturer with the right high-level access in any given situation could develop accessibility for a given product. Wait times for accessibility to off-the-shelf products could you take years. Software developers used their products to try to freeze out hardware manufacturers.

I wish Jaws would die, because it's expensive, proprietary, unnecessary, and I revile the politics of the people who develop it. Competition between nvda and Jaws is not good for customers, and it's not good for the market. obsolescence of jaws has major ramifications for companies such as Banks using old proprietary systems, but I think it would be a mistake to feel too Sorry for those types of companies. increased adoption of nvda with the right advocacy could lead to higher employment, better education and training, and better design practices for commercial software. we are all good and valuable things, not merely for blind people, but for businesses, infrastructures, economies, and society in general.

a competition between nvda and narrator may have some positive ramifications, especially on the narrator side, but the sooner freedom scientific gets out of the way, the better.

Best,

Th
erik


On February 3, 2019 9:43:12 AM "Felix G." <constantlyvariable@...> wrote:

Hi,
here's what I don't get: Why would some users of one screen reader
actually wish for another screen reader to disappear? I can understand
when a company decides it would be somewhat cool if the competition
didn't exist. But users? Why would I, for instance, as a Mac user want
Windows to die? Wouldn't it be logical for a JAWS user to be grateful
that NVDA exists because competition improves quality?
Best,
Felix

Am So., 3. Feb. 2019 um 14:35 Uhr schrieb molly the blind tech lover
<brainardmolly@...>:

Hi.

I agree with everything you say.

I love NVDA.

I am so grateful that it exists as it has changed my life for the better. I am so grateful to all the NVDA developers and contributors.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Clare Page
Sent: Sunday, February 3, 2019 8:26 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?



Hi!

Reading this thread about the rumours of NVDA dying, I couldn’t help thinking: would I be right in guessing that the people who mentioned this don’t use NVDA themselves? Over the years I’ve come across several users of other screenreaders who look down on NVDA for different reasons, so maybe the talk of the death of NVDA was wishful thinking on their part, hoping we’d all flock to use whatever screenreaders they have. Very cynical, I know, but I couldn’t get that thought out of my mind, that’s why I expressed it here; And no, I have no intention of being nasty to users of other screenreaders, I have simply noticed that some users of any screenreader or system, sometimes just a tiny minority, are quick to look down on anyone who doesn’t use the same thing.

However, I’m convinced that there’s plenty of life in NVDA as we discuss this: look how hard the developers are working to not only keep this screenreader alive, but also to improve it! We’re all grateful to them, I know, and I wish to add: keep up the good work! And I’m not just saying that to keep the rumour-mongers quiet, we want this excellent screenreader to keep existing for a long time to come. It may have its imperfections, every screenreader does, but it would only be worth killing off if it’s no good, and it’s exactly the opposite, an excellent way to access the Windows operating system for many blind people. Long live NVDA!

Bye for now!

From Clare



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sharni-Lee Ward
Sent: dimanche 3 février 2019 07:32
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?



As far as I could tell, all of the people concerned were on Windows 10, not XP.



I know I'll have to shift away from 7 eventually, but hopefully not any time this year. I will when I must, but as long as the next release of NVDA will work on my Win 7 system, I'll be content.

On 3/02/2019 4:33 pm, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Those rumors were probably from who have a Windows 10 phobia. Now there are performance issues with people trying to run the latest version of NVDA on Windows XP or earlier. That is flatly stated on this and other NVDA lists and websites.



Folks, you have to move on past XP and eventually even Windows 7. I am very conservative when it comes to changing a system that works well. I had an XP system at least one of the 3 systems I own until early 2018, but I now have 2 Windows 10 systems playing perfectly with NVDA and I feel a bit better than with JAWS latest release. I still don't like JAWS identifying the Windows Explorer windows as multi select list boxes and reading every item in the displayed columns. Even with the updated scripts for Thunderbird, JAWS still seems sluggish and clunky when compared to NVDA in that program.



So there you have it--just my 2 cents.



On 2/2/2019 10:36 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:

It wasn't on an NVDA skype group, just a misc one for someone's live streams where all sorts of topics come up. There were some complaints about performance issues a couple days ago, and that was where the sentiments I related were mentioned. It upset me quite a bit to hear such things...

On 3/02/2019 1:42 pm, Lino Morales wrote:

I don’t know where the hell you heard that on the Skype group. Are you on the Skype English group? I’ve not seen any such messages about NVDA going down hill since James left. Mike, Quenton, and Rafe Turner are doing a fine job down under along with the devs who are part of the NVDA add-ons community.



Sent from Mail for Windows 10



________________________________

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Sharni-Lee Ward <sharni-lee.ward@...>
Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2019 8:41:06 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?



Hi,


I haven't updated NVDA since 2018.1 due to issues that seemed to crop up
around every release. Now I'm hearing from others in a Skype group I'm a
member of that NVDA has been going downhill since Jamie left the project
and it's going to die outright soon because it can't keep up with
competition.


NVDA has been my screen-reader of choice since I discovered it in late
2011 and I don't want it to be forever lost. I can't donate right now,
and I'm not a programmer, but is there anything I can do to help? This
project has been a faithful friend to me and I want to fight for it in
any way I possibly can.


--

They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.

They ask: "How Happy are You?"

I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"








Travis Siegel <tsiegel@...>
 

Heh, you mention accessible web sites, and scrolling text and the like. I discovered way back in 1996, when I setup my web site for the first time, that folks aren't interested in plain text if there's a pretty scrolling banner nearby. I had some javascript on my site scrolling advertising offers, (yes, even in 1996, pay per click was a thing), but I took it down after trying to show the site to a library resulted in the librarian mentioning how cool the scrolling text was, and not even glancing at the rest of the site. That was my one and only experience with javascript on my own pages, I refuse to use it now, and have since that day. Call me what you like, but it's always been my opinion that the purpose of a web site is to convey information, and anything that gets in the way of conveying that information is useless.
NVDA can handle most things, but until we have a way for it to ignore scrolling banners, I fear our web browsing sessions are doomed to repeating text that has no bearing on the current page.


Brian's Mail list account
 

Well I remember supernova had an ignore changes in an area thing. Problem is of curse that no two sites put that in the same place.
Another annoyance is sites that immediately start playing loud music when you go to them.
The thing is that many sighted people no longer want the clever stuff. That is for presentation web sites not commerce or those in everyday usage, yet the people writing them seem to apply their skills to creating monsters rather than usable web sites.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Travis Siegel" <tsiegel@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2019 2:39 PM
Subject: Re: Competition was Re: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?


Heh, you mention accessible web sites, and scrolling text and the like. I discovered way back in 1996, when I setup my web site for the first time, that folks aren't interested in plain text if there's a pretty scrolling banner nearby. I had some javascript on my site scrolling advertising offers, (yes, even in 1996, pay per click was a thing), but I took it down after trying to show the site to a library resulted in the librarian mentioning how cool the scrolling text was, and not even glancing at the rest of the site. That was my one and only experience with javascript on my own pages, I refuse to use it now, and have since that day. Call me what you like, but it's always been my opinion that the purpose of a web site is to convey information, and anything that gets in the way of conveying that information is useless.
NVDA can handle most things, but until we have a way for it to ignore scrolling banners, I fear our web browsing sessions are doomed to repeating text that has no bearing on the current page.


Steve Nutt
 

Hi Brian,

Doesn't audio ducking solve the loud stuff playing problem for you? I know
NVDA does this.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail
list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 16 February 2019 11:50
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: Competition was Re: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do
anything to help?

Well I remember supernova had an ignore changes in an area thing. Problem
is of curse that no two sites put that in the same place.
Another annoyance is sites that immediately start playing loud music when
you go to them.
The thing is that many sighted people no longer want the clever stuff. That
is for presentation web sites not commerce or those in everyday usage, yet
the people writing them seem to apply their skills to creating monsters
rather than usable web sites.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Travis Siegel" <tsiegel@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2019 2:39 PM
Subject: Re: Competition was Re: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do
anything to help?


Heh, you mention accessible web sites, and scrolling text and the
like. I discovered way back in 1996, when I setup my web site for the
first time, that folks aren't interested in plain text if there's a
pretty scrolling banner nearby. I had some javascript on my site
scrolling advertising offers, (yes, even in 1996, pay per click was a
thing), but I took it down after trying to show the site to a library
resulted in the librarian mentioning how cool the scrolling text was,
and not even glancing at the rest of the site. That was my one and
only experience with javascript on my own pages, I refuse to use it
now, and have since that day. Call me what you like, but it's always
been my opinion that the purpose of a web site is to convey
information, and anything that gets in the way of conveying that
information is useless.
NVDA can handle most things, but until we have a way for it to ignore
scrolling banners, I fear our web browsing sessions are doomed to
repeating text that has no bearing on the current page.