Accessibility tips on this website would be appreciated


greg@...
 

I am a photographer / content creator that specializes in panoramic imagery like you would find on Google Street View.  I use NVDA to test the accessibility of my projects.  Generally, these projects are based on a straight line array of thumbnails which each contain a tooltip giving a basic name for the corresponding panorama.  Sometimes, there is a combobox that lists categories or areas each, in turn, have there own array of panoramas....and thumbnails associated with them.  I am using Chrome 72.0 and Firefox 65.0 on a 64 bit Windows 7 machine....and, Microsoft Edge 44.177 on a 64 Bit Windows 10 Machine to test this link:  http://www.photographyoptions.net/images/degraynew/tour.html.  This is a virtual tour of DeGray Lake in Arkansas.
To be honest, there appears to be virtually no accessibility in this project most of the time.  But for some reason, sometimes the page will load and NVDA will first read the Combobox List, and then proceed to name all of the 150 or so thumbnail titles. It seems like that could be a good start to achieving some standard of accessibility, but I don't understand why it only does it every once in awhile.

I would be grateful for any feedback that anyone could give on how to improve the accessibility of this project and I would be even more grateful for information on how to tweak NVDA to get the best results.  For example, if I alternate between using the tab key and doing 1 mouse click in the screen, I can move one by one through the thumbnails which are all selectable.  Then, If I could get NVDA to read the tooltip associated with each thumbnail....I feel that I will have made some progress.  Any advice would be appreciated.

Cheers, Reggie
--
Greg Hosler

www.photographyoptions.com

Greg@...

865-774-9755


Chris Shook <chris0309@...>
 

Sorry Greg, but I have to ask, are you totally blind?
If so, how do you work in photography?
I'm not trying to be offensive, I'm genuinely curious.
NVDA will probably be the first one to have accessibility in this area, mostly because I'd bet good money no one ever thought to make photography websites or programs accessible.


Bianka Brankovic <bianka.brankovic@...>
 

Hello Greg,

 

now, bare in mind I am not a web developer wiz myself.

 

However, the first thing that came to mind, have you tested the link with other browsers?

 

I see the descriptions reliably with Firefox 60.3 ESR and Google Chrome 72.0.3, the system is a Win 10 64 Bit.  

 

You might want to look into your website building tool of choice to find the answer to this issue.

 

Thanks and kind regards,

 

Bianka

 

 

 

 

 

 

Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von greg@...
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 13. Februar 2019 15:54
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: [nvda] Accessibility tips on this website would be appreciated

 

I am a photographer / content creator that specializes in panoramic imagery like you would find on Google Street View.  I use NVDA to test the accessibility of my projects.  Generally, these projects are based on a straight line array of thumbnails which each contain a tooltip giving a basic name for the corresponding panorama.  Sometimes, there is a combobox that lists categories or areas each, in turn, have there own array of panoramas....and thumbnails associated with them.  I am using Chrome 72.0 and Firefox 65.0 on a 64 bit Windows 7 machine....and, Microsoft Edge 44.177 on a 64 Bit Windows 10 Machine to test this link:  http://www.photographyoptions.net/images/degraynew/tour.html.  This is a virtual tour of DeGray Lake in Arkansas.
To be honest, there appears to be virtually no accessibility in this project most of the time.  But for some reason, sometimes the page will load and NVDA will first read the Combobox List, and then proceed to name all of the 150 or so thumbnail titles. It seems like that could be a good start to achieving some standard of accessibility, but I don't understand why it only does it every once in awhile.

I would be grateful for any feedback that anyone could give on how to improve the accessibility of this project and I would be even more grateful for information on how to tweak NVDA to get the best results.  For example, if I alternate between using the tab key and doing 1 mouse click in the screen, I can move one by one through the thumbnails which are all selectable.  Then, If I could get NVDA to read the tooltip associated with each thumbnail....I feel that I will have made some progress.  Any advice would be appreciated.

Cheers, Reggie
--
Greg Hosler

www.photographyoptions.com

Greg@...

865-774-9755


Jackie
 

Hello, Greg. I really wasn't able to look much at the source because
it appears you've got some sort of proprietary Javascript framework
running, which, if I'm at all correct, is not helping your cause. Your
objects appear to be clickable elements as opposed to standard links.
These may or may not work well w/NVDA depending on whether or not the
mouse is positioned properly. They certainly don't appear to do
anything when using either the left-click key or the object activation
key commands.

I am assuming, simply because you appear to know something about this,
that you've used alt tags to label images. That's always a dangerous
thing to do, though, as I'm certain you're well aware. Because I
couldn't study the source, I couldn't tell, but obviously those are
always a first step.

It also appears from the source that you may be importing content from
elsewhere, ie, I'm seeing references to IFrame in your javascript, &
that, too, may not be helping. I really think the problem here is
primarily your website framework. Again, not being able to look at the
full source is problematic, but that's my assessment after a 10-minute
glance, which likely is all my time permits. I do appreciate your
wanting to make your photo site accessible. I think a more
standardized content management system like WordPress or Drupal is
likely the 1 biggest step you could take to achieve that, & I also
understand that kind of undertaking isn't likely something you want to
do.

On 2/13/19, Bianka Brankovic <bianka.brankovic@...> wrote:
Hello Greg,

now, bare in mind I am not a web developer wiz myself.

However, the first thing that came to mind, have you tested the link with
other browsers?

I see the descriptions reliably with Firefox 60.3 ESR and Google Chrome
72.0.3, the system is a Win 10 64 Bit.

You might want to look into your website building tool of choice to find the
answer to this issue.

Thanks and kind regards,

Bianka






Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von
greg@...
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 13. Februar 2019 15:54
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: [nvda] Accessibility tips on this website would be appreciated

I am a photographer / content creator that specializes in panoramic imagery
like you would find on Google Street View. I use NVDA to test the
accessibility of my projects. Generally, these projects are based on a
straight line array of thumbnails which each contain a tooltip giving a
basic name for the corresponding panorama. Sometimes, there is a combobox
that lists categories or areas each, in turn, have there own array of
panoramas....and thumbnails associated with them. I am using Chrome 72.0
and Firefox 65.0 on a 64 bit Windows 7 machine....and, Microsoft Edge 44.177
on a 64 Bit Windows 10 Machine to test this link:
http://www.photographyoptions.net/images/degraynew/tour.html. This is a
virtual tour of DeGray Lake in Arkansas.
To be honest, there appears to be virtually no accessibility in this project
most of the time. But for some reason, sometimes the page will load and
NVDA will first read the Combobox List, and then proceed to name all of the
150 or so thumbnail titles. It seems like that could be a good start to
achieving some standard of accessibility, but I don't understand why it only
does it every once in awhile.

I would be grateful for any feedback that anyone could give on how to
improve the accessibility of this project and I would be even more grateful
for information on how to tweak NVDA to get the best results. For example,
if I alternate between using the tab key and doing 1 mouse click in the
screen, I can move one by one through the thumbnails which are all
selectable. Then, If I could get NVDA to read the tooltip associated with
each thumbnail....I feel that I will have made some progress. Any advice
would be appreciated.

Cheers, Reggie
--
Greg Hosler

www.photographyoptions.com<http://www.photographyoptions.com>

Greg@...<mailto:Greg@...>

865-774-9755




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greg@...
 

Chris, I'm not blind....and so I am very inexperienced with NVDA. but most of my work is done for governments (in the U.S.).....and no two of them adhere to the same standard for the accessibility of their content.  I deal with marketing directors and most of them have no idea what a screenreader is or does....but they have may have been told that if you can tab through the project, then it should be OK.  Let me explain further.  The panoramas that I shoot are the same specialized type of photography that is found on Google Street View.  If you can imagine a sphere or a ball....and being inside the sphere in a chair with the photo of everything around you shown pictorially on the curved wall of the sphere while you push the sphere around with your mouse, you will appreciate the nature of the accessibility problem.  To be sure, the more detailed the description of each panoramic scene, the better I'm sure.  So, having said that, I would be interested in getting opinion from this forum regarding the accessibility of Google Street View. 

My problem is, that when I am doing sales, I might actually only get 2 out of 10 people that I call to look at my stuff.  And I know for a fact that some those that do, are using their tab key as a test...and if it doesn't jump to all of the elements on the page, they will disqualify me and I will never talk with them again.  That is why I asked about Google Street View.  When test it using NVDA....and I get into the Photos or Street View Section, I can only get NVDA to speak "photo 1, photo 2, photo 3, etc.)  In some cases they have better captions then that, but I don't know how to manipulate NVDA to get to them.  Thank you for your response!
--
Greg Hosler

www.photographyoptions.com

Greg@...

865-774-9755


Chris Shook <chris0309@...>
 

Greg,
This is my experience. Other people may have a different one, but here it goes.
I am totally blind. As a general rule, no screen reader, whether free or commercial will describe pictures.

From what I've seen, a screen reader will only read the text around a graphic.


greg@...
 

Bianka,

How did you see the descriptions.  As I mentioned before....In each of the browsers, I have experienced landing on the page and having NVDA read the combobox list, and then the individual thumbnails in succession.  Is there any key stroke combination in NVDA that slow that process down and speak the tooltip associated with each of the 150 thumbnails.  Since they are all clickable....and sometimes there are additional buttons within the panorama, I could work on that next.  First I would like to find out how, in NVDA to move from thumbnail to thumbnail using the tab key or some other key combination to here the caption spoken.  Any advice would be appreciated.

Cheers, Greg
--
Greg Hosler

www.photographyoptions.com

Greg@...

865-774-9755


Jackie
 

Greg, the up & down arrow keys did that, sort of.

On 2/13/19, greg@... <greg@...> wrote:
Bianka,

How did you see the descriptions.  As I mentioned before....In each of the
browsers, I have experienced landing on the page and having NVDA read the
combobox list, and then the individual thumbnails in succession.  Is there
any key stroke combination in NVDA that slow that process down and speak the
tooltip associated with each of the 150 thumbnails.  Since they are all
clickable....and sometimes there are additional buttons within the panorama,
I could work on that next.  First I would like to find out how, in NVDA to
move from thumbnail to thumbnail using the tab key or some other key
combination to here the caption spoken.  Any advice would be appreciated.

Cheers, Greg
--
Greg Hosler

www.photographyoptions.com ( http://www.photographyoptions.com )

Greg@...

865-774-9755



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Subscribe to a WordPress for Newbies Mailing List by sending a message to:
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visiting the list page at http://www.freelists.org/list/wp4newbs
& check out my sites at www.brighter-vision.com & www.mysitesbeenhacked.com


greg@...
 

Hmmm.  Jackie....I'm glad that you can see all that.  The development program I'm using is called KR Pano and it was created by this guy in Austria named Klaus Reinfeld....who I think is a genius. It is based on his own javascript recipe with a flash fallback for machines with older graphics cards.  It uses a unique type of .xml programming to incorporate all of this other content into the panoramas....like youtube videos, still image galleries, straight line video, etc.  All of that extra stuff is cool....but it really complicates the screen reader accessibility because the screen reader focuses on the skin....or very outside of the spherical image which takes up the entire screen...and there is no easy way to penetrate into the panorama itself where there may be buttons or iframes that are embedded into inside wall of the panorama.
--
Greg Hosler

www.photographyoptions.com

Greg@...

865-774-9755


greg@...
 

Chris,  thank you.  To have NVDA read the text describing my graphics is what I am after here.  If you are telling me that you are able to read those text descriptions in my project, how are you doing it?  I can't get it to work!

Cheers, Greg
--
Greg Hosler

www.photographyoptions.com

Greg@...

865-774-9755


Chris Shook
 

Greg,
If you are referring to the text on your website, I'm just using the arrow keys.


greg@...
 

OK, I just used my arrow keys....and it worked for navigating through the combobox.  Each of those places in that list has about 10 or so panoramas associated with it....so if you click on one of the locations....like "Arlie Moore Campground." the focus then moves from that list to the first of a series of thumbnails which each have their own description.  Has anybody been able to select an item from the combobox....and then select each of the 10 or so thumbnails associated with the selected area....where NVDA speaks the description of the graphic in the thumbnail?"  Ideally, I would then want to have a key stroke to take NVDA back to the combobox so that the end user on NVDA could go back and forth between each area, hearing all of the stuff that is in the area.  Right now, my descriptions in the thumbs are basic....in most cases just repeating the name of the campground.  But if there is a way to hear the descriptions, I would program them to say stuff like: "arlie moore accessible shower house east,"  "arlie moore playground," "arlie moore B loop accessible campsite 1."
--
Greg Hosler

www.photographyoptions.com

Greg@...

865-774-9755


greg@...
 

Thanks ya'll for your help today!
--
Greg Hosler

www.photographyoptions.com

Greg@...

865-774-9755


Brian's Mail list account
 

Basically then, if Flash is at all involved you are probably sunk.
The guy may be a genius, but I certainly think you might need to consider a simpler system for access users.
I've come across this sort of thing many times where there is no equivalent accessible way to interact with the graphic content.

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: <greg@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2019 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Accessibility tips on this website would be appreciated


Hmmm. Jackie....I'm glad that you can see all that. The development program I'm using is called KR Pano and it was created by this guy in Austria named Klaus Reinfeld....who I think is a genius. It is based on his own javascript recipe with a flash fallback for machines with older graphics cards. It uses a unique type of .xml programming to incorporate all of this other content into the panoramas....like youtube videos, still image galleries, straight line video, etc. All of that extra stuff is cool....but it really complicates the screen reader accessibility because the screen reader focuses on the skin....or very outside of the spherical image which takes up the entire screen...and there is no easy way to penetrate into the panorama itself where there may be buttons or iframes that are embedded into inside wall of the panorama.
--
Greg Hosler

www.photographyoptions.com ( http://www.photographyoptions.com )

Greg@...

865-774-9755


Brian's Mail list account
 

That is terrible. they should go and read the specs. I understand that gov sites in the US have to adhere to certain standards, and nobody would ever suggest that this is just using the tab key these days. Nvda itself can navigate by landmarks, headings buttons form fields links etc etc etc.
I think I'll leave it to others with a better memory for the actual web sites with the accredited stuff on.
I would though think that from the sounds of it, your customers need to read the docs as well as tab order can be important but its most certainly far too narrow an aspect to base access on. Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: <greg@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2019 5:10 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Accessibility tips on this website would be appreciated


Chris, I'm not blind....and so I am very inexperienced with NVDA. but most of my work is done for governments (in the U.S.).....and no two of them adhere to the same standard for the accessibility of their content. I deal with marketing directors and most of them have no idea what a screenreader is or does....but they have may have been told that if you can tab through the project, then it should be OK. Let me explain further. The panoramas that I shoot are the same specialized type of photography that is found on Google Street View. If you can imagine a sphere or a ball....and being inside the sphere in a chair with the photo of everything around you shown pictorially on the curved wall of the sphere while you push the sphere around with your mouse, you will appreciate the nature of the accessibility problem. To be sure, the more detailed the description of each panoramic scene, the better I'm sure. So, having said that, I would be interested in getting opinion from this forum regarding the accessibility of Google Street View.

My problem is, that when I am doing sales, I might actually only get 2 out of 10 people that I call to look at my stuff. And I know for a fact that some those that do, are using their tab key as a test...and if it doesn't jump to all of the elements on the page, they will disqualify me and I will never talk with them again. That is why I asked about Google Street View. When test it using NVDA....and I get into the Photos or Street View Section, I can only get NVDA to speak "photo 1, photo 2, photo 3, etc.) In some cases they have better captions then that, but I don't know how to manipulate NVDA to get to them. Thank you for your response!
--
Greg Hosler

www.photographyoptions.com ( http://www.photographyoptions.com )

Greg@...

865-774-9755


Brian's Mail list account
 

Yes but intelligent alt tagging can help here. What I think he needs to know is if google have cracked it. Since I could not make any sense of their site either, I suspect its still a grey area. after all it is a bit like tactile maps. You need to be able to emboss them. Here we have a three d object and yet it has to be shoved down a serial one dimensional channel and made sense of.The reason sight works is that its a wide band medium and one can see context, not just what is where the focus is. I often point out to web builders that they need to imagine they are viewing their site only through a long narrow tube like the centre of a toilet roll. No context of what you see is visible, and hence the person using the site is at a disadvantage, a bit like a fly in the middle of a maze who cannot fly over the hedges as his wings are broken.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Shook" <chris0309@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2019 5:17 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Accessibility tips on this website would be appreciated


Greg,
This is my experience. Other people may have a different one, but here it goes.
I am totally blind. As a general rule, no screen reader, whether free or commercial will describe pictures.
From what I've seen, a screen reader will only read the text around a graphic.


 

To be honest, flash is due to die.

Its old and unsafe and while I do load it on all the systems adobe is slating 2020 for its death.

Not sure when, but 2020 is when its supposed to be no more.

I guess we will know when it stops being supported when we get no more windows 10 updates for it, but html5 is the standard now.

I havn't seen many sites with pure flash.

Now, if you are a developer and want to still use flash, the recomended action is to use air which is flash html5, javascript java and a whole lot of extra stuff in a wrapper.

You can make websites but also compiled projects.

There is also flex in there to.

Air seems to be the standard adobe is pushing right now.

On 14/02/2019 9:55 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
Basically then, if Flash is at all involved you are probably sunk.
The guy may be a genius, but I certainly think you might need to consider a simpler system for access users.
I've come across this sort of thing many times where there is no equivalent accessible way to  interact with the graphic content.

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: <greg@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2019 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Accessibility tips on this website would be appreciated


Hmmm. Jackie....I'm glad that you can see all that. The development program I'm using is called KR Pano and it was created by this guy in Austria named Klaus Reinfeld....who I think is a genius. It is based on his own javascript recipe with a flash fallback for machines with older graphics cards. It uses a unique type of .xml programming to incorporate all of this other content into the panoramas....like youtube videos, still image galleries, straight line video, etc. All of that extra stuff is cool....but it really complicates the screen reader accessibility because the screen reader focuses on the skin....or very outside of the spherical image which takes up the entire screen...and there is no easy way to penetrate into the panorama itself where there may be buttons or iframes that are embedded into inside wall of the panorama.
--
Greg Hosler

www.photographyoptions.com ( http://www.photographyoptions.com )

Greg@...

865-774-9755







 

I am not sure about google, but you don't necessarily need to have descriptions for everything, of course its always a good idea, but there are a few ai toolkits about that can probably handle a lot of the boring stuff for you.

Now that doesn't lock you out of the loop completely just like a speech synth your ai is only as good as its database file, but even so, it is probably a bit better for your users if you describe things yourself when you can.

If not, you may get the gist of what something is in broken english sort of thing but its not as good is a human description.

At least right now.

On 14/02/2019 10:06 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
Yes but intelligent alt tagging can help here. What I think he needs to know is if google have cracked it. Since I could not make any sense of their site either, I suspect its still a grey area. after all it is a bit like tactile maps. You need to be able to emboss them. Here we have a three d object and yet it has to be shoved down a serial one dimensional  channel and made sense of.The reason sight works is that its a wide band medium and one can see context, not just what is where the focus is. I often point out to web builders that they need to imagine they are viewing their site only through a long narrow tube like the centre of a toilet roll. No context of what you see is visible, and hence the person using the site is at a disadvantage, a bit like a fly in the middle of a maze who cannot fly over the hedges as his wings are broken.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Shook" <chris0309@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2019 5:17 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Accessibility tips on this website would be appreciated


Greg,
This is my experience. Other people may have a different one, but here it goes.
I am totally blind. As a general rule, no screen reader, whether free or commercial will describe pictures.
From what I've seen, a screen reader will only read the text around a graphic.




greg@...
 

Brian,

Thank you for "cutting to the chase" on my inquiry!  The development platform that I am using is designed to optimize spinning panoramic imagery that provides better context compared to still imagery.....because it allows the viewer to see what is above, behind, below and all around the initial focal point of the image.  What makes the program so appealing to me as a sighted person is that it allows the incorporation of other supporting content....like video and still imagery to be accessed from within the panoramic image.  This requires that a transition element like a button....or several buttons be accessible within the spinning panoramic image.  For right now, there seems to be no easy way to make the transition to these buttons with a screen reader.  So, I have inferred that a good first step in making panoramic projects more screen reader friendly would be to find a way to use key strokes to move from panorama to panorama....where the best description possible tor each panorama is be provided with an alt tag or tooltip.  In the project link that I originally posted http://www.photographyoptions.net/images/degraynew/tour.html I can use the up and down arrows to move through a combobox this lists the different campgrounds and recreation areas, but when I hit the enter key to select one of those areas, I cannot figure out how to use a keystroke to move through the 15 or so individual thumbnail images representing all of the panoramas that I am showing in each of 10 campground / day use areas.  It would then be useful to use a keystroke to find your way back to the combobox menu....so that you could skip around more quickly and find what you are looking for.  In this particular project...In many of the campgrounds, there are specific campsites designed for accessibility located right next to the shower houses that are also designed for accessibility.  I think that this information might be sought by camping enthusiasts on this forum.

Also, thank you for letting me know that Google seems not to have cracked this.  Using NVDA on Google maps, it looks and sounds to me like they have done a pretty good job at facilitating keystroke navigation to every part of their maps....except the imagery in "Photos" and "Streetview."  One of the problems for them is that they allow the general public to put imagery up in these places....and many times there are no captions provided.  My strategy right now is to find a way to enable keystroke navigation through each of the 150 or 200 panoramas that I have in each project, where the screen reader speaks the description.  The next step will be to find away to navigate with keystrokes within each panorama to find the additional content like video and stills that may be available there.

With all of this said.  If anyone out there has been able to reliably access all of the 150 panoramas in my project link and hear the tootips (they are repetitive at this point....only speaking the name of the recreation area,) I would appreciate learning the correct keystrokes to achieve that. 

Brian, thanks again for taking the time to clarify!

Cheers, Greg
 
--
Greg Hosler

www.photographyoptions.com

Greg@...

865-774-9755


greg@...
 

Thank you Shaun.  Just to clarify a bit.  This project is done in HTML5, but there are still bunches of old computers out there that have older graphics cards that are not capable of viewing WebGL content in HTML5.....so this program also has the ability to automatically detect if the flash version is needed.  The flash version is only a "fallback" that is provided as a courtesy for end users with older computers.
--
Greg Hosler

www.photographyoptions.com

Greg@...

865-774-9755