Staying in Forms for Checkboxes


bestuiexperience
 

I sometimes find that when I enter a checkbox I automatically get thrown into browse mode. Since I am filling out a form I want to stay in forms mode because when in browse mode I sometimes will get focus completely thrown out of content.
So, 1) Is there a way to keep me in a given mode once I am in it 2) Is there a way to avoid being thrown out of the current element that I am in if I am not in forms mode (e.g., pressing the space bar will throw me out of focus occasionally when I am in forms mode)


Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

There are a lot of issues with forms for me. Sometimes the actual label is not read or the text in a field placed they by the form builder gets read instead but of course goes away as you type. Having played with various permutations of the automatic settings for focus mode I cannot come up with one that suits all occasions, sadly. Jaws seems to have a bit more luck but is not perfect by any means.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "bestuiexperience" <bestuiexperience@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2019 3:03 AM
Subject: [nvda] Staying in Forms for Checkboxes


I sometimes find that when I enter a checkbox I automatically get thrown into browse mode. Since I am filling out a form I want to stay in forms mode because when in browse mode I sometimes will get focus completely thrown out of content.
So, 1) Is there a way to keep me in a given mode once I am in it 2) Is there a way to avoid being thrown out of the current element that I am in if I am not in forms mode (e.g., pressing the space bar will throw me out of focus occasionally when I am in forms mode)


 

I don't know if I got it right, however if what you want is stay in a mode until or unless you change it yourself, I strongly believe that it's configurable into NVDA settings.
Others may comment on this (if they didn't it yet) as I forgot where it's exactly on.
Em 26/02/2019 00:03, bestuiexperience escreveu:

I sometimes find that when I enter a checkbox I automatically get thrown into browse mode. Since I am filling out a form I want to stay in forms mode because when in browse mode I sometimes will get focus completely thrown out of content.
So, 1) Is there a way to keep me in a given mode once I am in it 2) Is there a way to avoid being thrown out of the current element that I am in if I am not in forms mode (e.g., pressing the space bar will throw me out of focus occasionally when I am in forms mode)


 

Both NVDA and JAWS can be configured to stay in one mode or the other unless the user changes it by intent using keyboard shortcuts.  Both are also configured by default these days to switch from browse to forms mode when they land on a control during traversal and back to browse mode when they leave that control back to an area of straight text.

Gene has often mentioned that his personal preference is for "the old way" where the default was that you stayed in whatever mode you happen to be in until or unless you change it, no matter what you have landed on as you're making your way through the page.

It is odd that it would automatically switch to browse mode (or not leave browse mode) when landing on a control in the typical default configuration.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Gene
 

We need more information about how the person is navigating the page.  I believe this person is sighted.  So how is movement being done and how are the controls being activated?  Is it all from the keyboard, a combination of keyboard and mouse, or all mouse?
 
I think it is less confusing if automatic switching is turned off. 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2019 9:41 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Staying in Forms for Checkboxes

Both NVDA and JAWS can be configured to stay in one mode or the other unless the user changes it by intent using keyboard shortcuts.  Both are also configured by default these days to switch from browse to forms mode when they land on a control during traversal and back to browse mode when they leave that control back to an area of straight text.

Gene has often mentioned that his personal preference is for "the old way" where the default was that you stayed in whatever mode you happen to be in until or unless you change it, no matter what you have landed on as you're making your way through the page.

It is odd that it would automatically switch to browse mode (or not leave browse mode) when landing on a control in the typical default configuration.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


 

On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 11:08 AM, Gene wrote:
I think it is less confusing if automatic switching is turned off.
While that is arguably true, I believe that any user is better off when doing accessibility testing using the default settings.  It gives them a far more realistic feel for what "the typical user of [insert specific screen reader here]" will experience when using the software in it's typical configuration.

My own experience is that it hasn't made all that much difference as far as what NVDA announces whether I'm navigating strictly by keyboard (or using quick navigation shortcuts) or getting to an object or location by point and click (at least when mouse tracking is on, and it is by default).
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Steve Nutt
 

Hi Brian,

 

I like the other way personally, where it changes.  The reason I do is because I use ChromeVox and that doesn’t have a forms or browse mode at all, it simply has shortcuts that are not single keys to move by elements.  Of course, if you want single key behaviour in ChromeVox, you can turn on Sticky Keys.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 26 February 2019 15:41
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Staying in Forms for Checkboxes

 

Both NVDA and JAWS can be configured to stay in one mode or the other unless the user changes it by intent using keyboard shortcuts.  Both are also configured by default these days to switch from browse to forms mode when they land on a control during traversal and back to browse mode when they leave that control back to an area of straight text.

Gene has often mentioned that his personal preference is for "the old way" where the default was that you stayed in whatever mode you happen to be in until or unless you change it, no matter what you have landed on as you're making your way through the page.

It is odd that it would automatically switch to browse mode (or not leave browse mode) when landing on a control in the typical default configuration.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


 

On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 04:05 PM, Steve Nutt wrote:
ChromeVox
This reply is not meant as a "jumping down your throat," but once you get to an ecosystem other than Windows we're talking about an entirely different world.

You are not alone, however, in liking the automatic switching between modes.   I prefer it except in very specific circumstances, and those occur so seldom that I'd never make the default be manual switching.

Some of this comes from when different people began using screen readers, too, as at one time manual switching was the default.  It's all pretty much in what you got used to and comfortable with.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Curtis Delzer
 

I will also point out that Window-eyes had the ability to change and
stay in any given mode, as well as the ability, (not by just changing
cursors) to at least query the system and see if browse mode was
available, and then tell you, for example, "browse mode available,"
which is extremely valuable in cases where you try to go to it in a
control you may not be familiar with but suspect that browse mode may be
available. :)
-----
Curtis Delzer, HS.
WB6HEF
San Bernardino, CA


Gene
 

Any time I have been in a program where browse mode is available, JAWS and NVDA automatically place me in browse mode.  I should add that Microsoft Word, which may have browse mode available is an exception to what I said for understandable reasons.  Often, when you run Word, you want to edit and write.  You can't in browse mode.  I can instantly tell if it is available or if I am in it by using the command NVDA key space, which will toggle between browse mode on and off.  In JAWS the same behavior occurs, you are automatically placed in browse mode if the program supports it.  To see if you are in browse mode, or as JAWS calls it, the Virtual PC cursor, pressing numpad plus will announce Virtual PC cursor if it is active.
 
I recall that Window-eyes had a setting that would allow you to have browse mode not automatically come on.  This can be accomplished in JAWS and NVDA with roughly equivalent commands.  But my point is that it is very easy to tell if you are in browse mode with JAWS and NVDA.  When using a different screen-reader, it’s a good idea to ask if there is a feature that is equivalent to what you use in the one you generally work with if you are switching screen-readers or plan to use the other one a lot more. Not asking may cause you to lose access to a useful or important feature. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2019 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Staying in Forms for Checkboxes

I will also point out that Window-eyes had the ability to change and
stay in any given mode, as well as the ability, (not by just changing
cursors) to at least query the system and see if browse mode was
available, and then tell you, for example, "browse mode available,"
which is extremely valuable in cases where you try to go to it in a
control you may not be familiar with but suspect that browse mode may be
available. :)
-----
Curtis Delzer, HS.
WB6HEF
San Bernardino, CA




Annette Moore
 

Can you have it manually switch between browse and focus modes without it automatically opening a combo box when you come to one? having it do so in a combo box is why I don't have it manually switch between the two. System Access, the screen reader I previously used, would automatically allow you to start typing in an edit box, but when you got to a combo box or a drop-down menu, you had to hit alt+d I believe. I don't recall now if that keystroke opened combo boxes or just drop-down menus, but anyway, when I started using NVDA, I had it set to automatically switch, but then, one time, I was shopping and ran into a combo box. Not realizing the thing had opened automatically, I nearly ended up buying way, way more than I'd intended to by inadvertently selecting a high number of whatever item it was I was trying to purchase. I don't even remember now what the item was, but I remember thinking, OK, I don't want this thing automatically opening the combo box and confusing the heck out of me! So I'm just wondering: Can you have it switch between browse and focus modes, while not automatically opening combo boxes. I'd rather open those myself. If not, I'll just keep it the way it is. It's nothing, really, to hit alt space when I need to write something. Only takes a second to do.

Annette

On 2/26/2019 3:14 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 04:05 PM, Steve Nutt wrote:
ChromeVox
This reply is not meant as a "jumping down your throat," but once you get to an ecosystem other than Windows we're talking about an entirely different world.

You are not alone, however, in liking the automatic switching between modes.   I prefer it except in very specific circumstances, and those occur so seldom that I'd never make the default be manual switching.

Some of this comes from when different people began using screen readers, too, as at one time manual switching was the default.  It's all pretty much in what you got used to and comfortable with.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Gene
 

Here is a thorough explanation of combo boxes in terms of opening them.  It is a little long but many people may find it useful.
 
The command to open a combo box is alt down arrow.  But you first have to be in forms mode.  You can manually go into forms mode, then issue the command alt down arrow.  If the combo box makes the screen-reader automatically go into forms mode, you still have to open the combo box.  The two actions are completely separate.
 
Some combo boxes don't have to be opened.  Some do.  If you are in a combo box that needs to be opened, trying to move in the combo box will cause it to take an action.  For example, if you are in a list of states, down arrowing will cause the combo box to do something, such as open a page or register the state you have moved to as the one you want and take you out of forms mode and put you back in browse mode again.  If you open such combo boxes, you can move up and down as much as you want and no action will be taken until you press enter or, I believe tab may cause the action to be taken as well.
 
In combo boxes that don't require opening, yu can move up and down as often as you want with no action being taken.  Some people go into forms mode at a combo box and then issue the open command.  That is so that no combo box will take an action they don't want taken.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2019 10:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Staying in Forms for Checkboxes

Can you have it manually switch between browse and focus modes without it automatically opening a combo box when you come to one? having it do so in a combo box is why I don't have it manually switch between the two. System Access, the screen reader I previously used, would automatically allow you to start typing in an edit box, but when you got to a combo box or a drop-down menu, you had to hit alt+d I believe. I don't recall now if that keystroke opened combo boxes or just drop-down menus, but anyway, when I started using NVDA, I had it set to automatically switch, but then, one time, I was shopping and ran into a combo box. Not realizing the thing had opened automatically, I nearly ended up buying way, way more than I'd intended to by inadvertently selecting a high number of whatever item it was I was trying to purchase. I don't even remember now what the item was, but I remember thinking, OK, I don't want this thing automatically opening the combo box and confusing the heck out of me! So I'm just wondering: Can you have it switch between browse and focus modes, while not automatically opening combo boxes. I'd rather open those myself. If not, I'll just keep it the way it is. It's nothing, really, to hit alt space when I need to write something. Only takes a second to do.

Annette

On 2/26/2019 3:14 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 04:05 PM, Steve Nutt wrote:
ChromeVox
This reply is not meant as a "jumping down your throat," but once you get to an ecosystem other than Windows we're talking about an entirely different world.

You are not alone, however, in liking the automatic switching between modes.   I prefer it except in very specific circumstances, and those occur so seldom that I'd never make the default be manual switching.

Some of this comes from when different people began using screen readers, too, as at one time manual switching was the default.  It's all pretty much in what you got used to and comfortable with.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


 

It's also important here to make a distinction, and it's not a trivial one, between a combo box and a dropdown box.

A dropdown box allows you to make a selection from the dropdown list - that's it.  You may, in some implementations, get away with using the first letter of a choice to get to it quickly, but that's the equivalent of arrowing down to it.  You can't change it in any way, only select it.

A true combo box, hence its name, is a merger of an edit box and a dropdown list.  You can type in a combo box and it will accept the input.  Some do edit checks afterward to ensure that what's there matches one of the items in the dropdown list (most common), while others intentionally don't, so that the end user can essentially give an input that is not one of those things.

I've actually never paid close attention to whether dropdowns and combos are announced differently, but I have to believe they are since their behaviors are, while related, distinctly different.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Gene
 

I don't recall screen-readers I've used making such a distinction.  and in quick navigation keys, there is the letter c for move to next combo box but I don't recall any screen-reader I've used having a letter d command for move to next drop down box, nor any other letter command for it.  In NVDA, the letter d moves you to the next landmark. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2019 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Staying in Forms for Checkboxes

It's also important here to make a distinction, and it's not a trivial one, between a combo box and a dropdown box.

A dropdown box allows you to make a selection from the dropdown list - that's it.  You may, in some implementations, get away with using the first letter of a choice to get to it quickly, but that's the equivalent of arrowing down to it.  You can't change it in any way, only select it.

A true combo box, hence its name, is a merger of an edit box and a dropdown list.  You can type in a combo box and it will accept the input.  Some do edit checks afterward to ensure that what's there matches one of the items in the dropdown list (most common), while others intentionally don't, so that the end user can essentially give an input that is not one of those things.

I've actually never paid close attention to whether dropdowns and combos are announced differently, but I have to believe they are since their behaviors are, while related, distinctly different.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Annette Moore
 

Thanks so much for this explanation, Gene. It's very helpful.

Annette

On 2/27/2019 6:43 AM, Gene wrote:
Here is a thorough explanation of combo boxes in terms of opening them.  It is a little long but many people may find it useful.
 
The command to open a combo box is alt down arrow.  But you first have to be in forms mode.  You can manually go into forms mode, then issue the command alt down arrow.  If the combo box makes the screen-reader automatically go into forms mode, you still have to open the combo box.  The two actions are completely separate.
 
Some combo boxes don't have to be opened.  Some do.  If you are in a combo box that needs to be opened, trying to move in the combo box will cause it to take an action.  For example, if you are in a list of states, down arrowing will cause the combo box to do something, such as open a page or register the state you have moved to as the one you want and take you out of forms mode and put you back in browse mode again.  If you open such combo boxes, you can move up and down as much as you want and no action will be taken until you press enter or, I believe tab may cause the action to be taken as well.
 
In combo boxes that don't require opening, yu can move up and down as often as you want with no action being taken.  Some people go into forms mode at a combo box and then issue the open command.  That is so that no combo box will take an action they don't want taken.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2019 10:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Staying in Forms for Checkboxes

Can you have it manually switch between browse and focus modes without it automatically opening a combo box when you come to one? having it do so in a combo box is why I don't have it manually switch between the two. System Access, the screen reader I previously used, would automatically allow you to start typing in an edit box, but when you got to a combo box or a drop-down menu, you had to hit alt+d I believe. I don't recall now if that keystroke opened combo boxes or just drop-down menus, but anyway, when I started using NVDA, I had it set to automatically switch, but then, one time, I was shopping and ran into a combo box. Not realizing the thing had opened automatically, I nearly ended up buying way, way more than I'd intended to by inadvertently selecting a high number of whatever item it was I was trying to purchase. I don't even remember now what the item was, but I remember thinking, OK, I don't want this thing automatically opening the combo box and confusing the heck out of me! So I'm just wondering: Can you have it switch between browse and focus modes, while not automatically opening combo boxes. I'd rather open those myself. If not, I'll just keep it the way it is. It's nothing, really, to hit alt space when I need to write something. Only takes a second to do.

Annette

On 2/26/2019 3:14 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 04:05 PM, Steve Nutt wrote:
ChromeVox
This reply is not meant as a "jumping down your throat," but once you get to an ecosystem other than Windows we're talking about an entirely different world.

You are not alone, however, in liking the automatic switching between modes.   I prefer it except in very specific circumstances, and those occur so seldom that I'd never make the default be manual switching.

Some of this comes from when different people began using screen readers, too, as at one time manual switching was the default.  It's all pretty much in what you got used to and comfortable with.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Sarah k Alawami
 

I don't think screen readers at least the ones I've used distinguish between the two either. They cll it a picker, a dropdown, a combo box, but they all to me do the same thing at least according to the screen reader. And c will get you to the next combo box.

Take care

On 27 Feb 2019, at 11:37, Gene wrote:

I don't recall screen-readers I've used making such a distinction.  and in quick navigation keys, there is the letter c for move to next combo box but I don't recall any screen-reader I've used having a letter d command for move to next drop down box, nor any other letter command for it.  In NVDA, the letter d moves you to the next landmark. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2019 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Staying in Forms for Checkboxes

It's also important here to make a distinction, and it's not a trivial one, between a combo box and a dropdown box.

A dropdown box allows you to make a selection from the dropdown list - that's it.  You may, in some implementations, get away with using the first letter of a choice to get to it quickly, but that's the equivalent of arrowing down to it.  You can't change it in any way, only select it.

A true combo box, hence its name, is a merger of an edit box and a dropdown list.  You can type in a combo box and it will accept the input.  Some do edit checks afterward to ensure that what's there matches one of the items in the dropdown list (most common), while others intentionally don't, so that the end user can essentially give an input that is not one of those things.

I've actually never paid close attention to whether dropdowns and combos are announced differently, but I have to believe they are since their behaviors are, while related, distinctly different.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Steve Nutt
 

Brian,

 

Dropdowns of any kind are never announced as dropdowns.

 

Combos are announced as Combo and Combo Edits are announced as Combo Edit.  Dropdown is not a screen reader term thus far on any screen reader I have ever used.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 27 February 2019 16:10
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Staying in Forms for Checkboxes

 

It's also important here to make a distinction, and it's not a trivial one, between a combo box and a dropdown box.

A dropdown box allows you to make a selection from the dropdown list - that's it.  You may, in some implementations, get away with using the first letter of a choice to get to it quickly, but that's the equivalent of arrowing down to it.  You can't change it in any way, only select it.

A true combo box, hence its name, is a merger of an edit box and a dropdown list.  You can type in a combo box and it will accept the input.  Some do edit checks afterward to ensure that what's there matches one of the items in the dropdown list (most common), while others intentionally don't, so that the end user can essentially give an input that is not one of those things.

I've actually never paid close attention to whether dropdowns and combos are announced differently, but I have to believe they are since their behaviors are, while related, distinctly different.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back