Topics

Being Unsubscribed for Marking Messages as Spam #adminnotice

 

Hello All,

           You can consider this my first formal communication as group moderator, and I'm hoping that it will help not only the group as a whole but Groups.io as a whole, too.

           First, let me say, that I know that many of you who've experienced this have not done this marking yourself.   If, however, you did, and you did it intentionally:  Please STOP!!   There are all sorts of mechanisms in place these days behind the scenes that feed information about messages marked by users as spam up to their e-mail service providers, that then gets shared among e-mail service providers, to create spam filters.    This is absolutely marvelous when messages are marked correctly, but if non-spam gets marked, then non-spam starts to get identified as spam by the e-mail service providers, leading everyone to have things blocked that they'd rather be getting.

           If you are not intentionally marking anything as spam, but are getting a message from Groups.io saying that you have been unsubscribed for marking a message as spam, this means that your own e-mail service provider is doing that marking, which is not a good thing.  Thus, I'm asking you to please make the effort to contact your e-mail service provider and ask them to remove anything that comes from any groups.io address from their spam filters.   The only way anyone should be getting messages from groups.io is if they went to the effort to subscribe, and by definition subscription e-mail lists cannot be spam.  You may get messages you don't want, and if they're few and far between, then delete them, but don't mark them as spam.

            If you are on any Groups.io group where traffic is substantial, and you don't want to deal with individual messages, you can change your subscription to digest to cut down on your traffic or use a number of controls provided to really limit what you're going to see from Groups.io for a given group.  I will post the instructions on what exists, and how to use it, here again now:

         Controlling the Messages You Receive via E-Mail from Groups.io

 


            There has been a lot of recent conversation on a couple of the administrators groups about people being unsubscribed for having marked messages as spam, even when they personally have not done so.   I wanted you all to know why this is happening when you have not done any marking and what you can do to at least try to educate your e-mail service provider about Groups.io messages not being spam.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 

 

By the way, for any of you who want to know more about what's happening and why, there is an excellent Wiki Page on the Group Managers Forum that gives you the skinny.  For those who want more of the background on this, the actual mechanisms involved, and what you can do about it, please read:

      Members Removed for Marking Messages as Spam
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 

Cohn, Jonathan
 

I usually get at least 3 messages a week from this list that are quarantined from my inbox. (including the one I am replying to). I almost always press the ‘release” button, and I have never clicked “block”.

 

 

From: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
Reply-To: "nvda@nvda.groups.io" <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Date: Wednesday, February 27, 2019 at 5:25 PM
To: "nvda@nvda.groups.io" <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [nvda] Being Unsubscribed for Marking Messages as Spam #adminnotice

 

Hello All,

           You can consider this my first formal communication as group moderator, and I'm hoping that it will help not only the group as a whole but Groups.io as a whole, too.

           First, let me say, that I know that many of you who've experienced this have not done this marking yourself.   If, however, you did, and you did it intentionally:  Please STOP!!   There are all sorts of mechanisms in place these days behind the scenes that feed information about messages marked by users as spam up to their e-mail service providers, that then gets shared among e-mail service providers, to create spam filters.    This is absolutely marvelous when messages are marked correctly, but if non-spam gets marked, then non-spam starts to get identified as spam by the e-mail service providers, leading everyone to have things blocked that they'd rather be getting.

           If you are not intentionally marking anything as spam, but are getting a message from Groups.io saying that you have been unsubscribed for marking a message as spam, this means that your own e-mail service provider is doing that marking, which is not a good thing.  Thus, I'm asking you to please make the effort to contact your e-mail service provider and ask them to remove anything that comes from any groups.io address from their spam filters.   The only way anyone should be getting messages from groups.io is if they went to the effort to subscribe, and by definition subscription e-mail lists cannot be spam.  You may get messages you don't want, and if they're few and far between, then delete them, but don't mark them as spam.

            If you are on any Groups.io group where traffic is substantial, and you don't want to deal with individual messages, you can change your subscription to digest to cut down on your traffic or use a number of controls provided to really limit what you're going to see from Groups.io for a given group.  I will post the instructions on what exists, and how to use it, here again now:

         Controlling the Messages You Receive via E-Mail from Groups.io

 


            There has been a lot of recent conversation on a couple of the administrators groups about people being unsubscribed for having marked messages as spam, even when they personally have not done so.   I wanted you all to know why this is happening when you have not done any marking and what you can do to at least try to educate your e-mail service provider about Groups.io messages not being spam.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 

 

On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 05:30 PM, Cohn, Jonathan wrote:
I usually get at least 3 messages a week from this list that are quarantined from my inbox. (including the one I am replying to). I almost always press the ‘release” button, and I have never clicked “block”.
Even if you were to block, it is only if this action also carries with it the marking of a blocked message as spam that the problematic feedback loops come into play.

You might want to consider whitelisting anything that comes from an address that ends in groups.io in your own e-mail filters.  It can save you having to keep releasing things.  Notifying your e-mail service provider that things originating from groups.io are not spam or suspicious would be helpful, too.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Could I just say that most of the time for me at least I only use pop3, and hence have no control over what virginmedia do. But when I do occasionally go on and look through IMAP, I do find some messages from lists and individuals in there every week. The marking as spam is not obvious but if you look at the headers you see bla bla.. spam score is xx content spam.
This means it never gets to pop 3. What I then do is go into Imap move them into inbox and then after a short time the pop3 delivers them to me again. its as if this kind of thing only sticks for around a couple of weeks though, and unfortunately having in the past tried to contact them they will not talk about how their spam filtering works as they say if I were a spammer they would be telling me how to get around it, making spam far more difficult to trap.
Now I think what you and others refer to is when a server at a mail list company gets on a spam list, Sadly unless you can send your message to every single list on every single list maker and delivery system. there will be occasions when they get a listing. this is when the company sends an email telling you it cannot deliver mail.
Because this server is used by all lists it is possibly somebody elsewhere who has triggered the black listing.
There is I am sure a lot of grey listing going on to try to stop spam getting to lists whereby the first attempt to deliver is always refused in case its a spam boted machine using the infected users address book, but even then some bot software is getting clever.

Thus do check the spam if you have the ability to do so, but we may have to live with the odd problem cropping up we have no control over.
I posted this directly to the list as I wanted to pass on what I had found out over the years but do not want it to turn into a discussion filling up the list. I just felt it had to be said.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <@britechguy>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2019 5:10 PM
Subject: [nvda] Being Unsubscribed for Marking Messages as Spam #adminnotice


Hello All,

You can consider this my first formal communication as group moderator, and I'm hoping that it will help not only the group as a whole but Groups.io as a whole, too.

First, let me say, that I know that many of you who've experienced this have not done this marking yourself. If, however, you did, and you did it intentionally: Please STOP!! There are all sorts of mechanisms in place these days behind the scenes that feed information about messages marked by users as spam up to their e-mail service providers, that then gets shared among e-mail service providers, to create spam filters. This is absolutely marvelous when messages are marked correctly, but if non-spam gets marked, then non-spam starts to get identified as spam by the e-mail service providers, leading everyone to have things blocked that they'd rather be getting.

If you are not intentionally marking anything as spam, but are getting a message from Groups.io saying that you have been unsubscribed for marking a message as spam, this means that your own e-mail service provider is doing that marking, which is not a good thing. Thus, I'm asking you to please make the effort to contact your e-mail service provider and ask them to remove anything that comes from any groups.io address from their spam filters. The only way anyone should be getting messages from groups.io is if they went to the effort to subscribe, and by definition subscription e-mail lists cannot be spam. You may get messages you don't want, and if they're few and far between, then delete them, but don't mark them as spam.

If you are on any Groups.io group where traffic is substantial, and you don't want to deal with individual messages, you can change your subscription to digest to cut down on your traffic or use a number of controls provided to really limit what you're going to see from Groups.io for a given group. I will post the instructions on what exists, and how to use it, here again now:

*Controlling the Messages You Receive via E-Mail from Groups.io ( https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1B941pSg2OCRKGukRg1d5w7nwu8wJLUaK ) *



There has been a lot of recent conversation on a couple of the administrators groups about people being unsubscribed for having marked messages as spam, even when they personally have not done so. I wanted you all to know why this is happening when you have not done any marking and what you can do to at least try to educate your e-mail service provider about Groups.io messages not being spam.
--

Brian *-* Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763

*A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.*

~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Oh if only one could actually do that.. The real world is not that simple, sadly. See my long post.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <@britechguy>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2019 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Being Unsubscribed for Marking Messages as Spam #adminnotice


On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 05:30 PM, Cohn, Jonathan wrote:


I usually get at least 3 messages a week from this list that are
quarantined from my inbox. (including the one I am replying to). I almost
always press the ‘release” button, and I have never clicked “block”.
Even if you were to block, it is only if this action also carries with it the marking of a blocked message as spam that the problematic feedback loops come into play.

You might want to consider whitelisting anything that comes from an address that ends in groups.io in your own e-mail filters. It can save you having to keep releasing things. Notifying your e-mail service provider that things originating from groups.io are not spam or suspicious would be helpful, too.

--

Brian *-* Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763

*A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.*

~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

I've never marked any of these as spam, ever, yet, somehow, they still ended up in my spam folder. I finally had to create a filter to tell gmail to never mark this domain as spam and that solved the problem. Below is a link on creating gmail filters.

https://support.google.com/mail/answer/6579?hl=en

 

On Thu, Feb 28, 2019 at 03:45 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
Oh if only one could actually do that.. The real world is not that simple, sadly. See my long post.
One can actually do that in a great many cases, thus it is important that when one can, one does.   The real world is never simple.   Using POP in this day and age is unwise (though that is a separate issue of its own).
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 

ADRIAN POCOCK
 

Hi

The discussion here has been enlightening to me, I am relatively new to newsgroups and forums and i didn't realise that deleting junk mail could cause such problems.  I must hold my hands up, I did it.  Is emptying the junk folder all at once causing the same problems.


Best Adrian Pocock

On 28/02/2019 14:22, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Thu, Feb 28, 2019 at 03:45 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
Oh if only one could actually do that.. The real world is not that simple, sadly. See my long post.
One can actually do that in a great many cases, thus it is important that when one can, one does.   The real world is never simple.   Using POP in this day and age is unwise (though that is a separate issue of its own).
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 

Travis Siegel <tsiegel@...>
 

It's not deleting junk mail that causes the problems, it's marking messages as spam that aren't that causes the problem.  If you mark messages as spam that aren't truly spam, then that will (sometimes) filter back upstream to your email provider, and out  to other providers who share configurations, so that it eventually gets marked as spam for everyone using the same system, and that's what's being discussed here.  Deleting junk messages is no different from deleting nonjunk messages, it's only the action of marking them spam that (sometimes) has the undesired result of making lots of other servers mark them as spam as well.

On 2/28/2019 5:22 PM, ADRIAN POCOCK wrote:

Hi

The discussion here has been enlightening to me, I am relatively new to newsgroups and forums and i didn't realise that deleting junk mail could cause such problems.  I must hold my hands up, I did it.  Is emptying the junk folder all at once causing the same problems.


Best Adrian Pocock

On 28/02/2019 14:22, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Thu, Feb 28, 2019 at 03:45 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
Oh if only one could actually do that.. The real world is not that simple, sadly. See my long post.
One can actually do that in a great many cases, thus it is important that when one can, one does.   The real world is never simple.   Using POP in this day and age is unwise (though that is a separate issue of its own).
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Virus-free. www.avast.com

 

On Thu, Feb 28, 2019 at 06:03 PM, Travis Siegel wrote:
Deleting junk messages is no different from deleting nonjunk messages, it's only the action of marking them spam that (sometimes) has the undesired result of making lots of other servers mark them as spam as well.
That depends entirely on the e-mail client.   It makes me want to scream that Thunderbird, as much as I love it, decided to use the term Junk for what is more generally known as Spam.  It's built-in junk filtering also marks junk as spam, because the two are considered synonymous in that particular client.  What they did do, which is only helpful if you're sighted, is to make their "junk flame icon" attach to the spam folder for IMAP accounts where one exists.  At one time it didn't, which made things entirely confusing.

So, if you're a Thunderbird user, Junk and Spam are one and the same.

Trash can be deleted under Thunderbird, WLM (any version I know of), and Outlook (again, any version) without any issue.  Those messages are not considered to be Spam.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back