Topics

NVDA List, A Reboot #adminnotice

Nimer Jaber
 

Hello everyone,

 

Here's hoping this message finds everyone well.

 

A bit over a month ago, Brian and I began working together as he became moderator of this list. One of my goals, and Brian's too, was to think of ways to make sure that we are remaining on target with our discussions, that we are a community who is helpful, open to new users as they embark on their journey of learning NVDA, and so on. To that end, Brian worked on a letter to our community. This letter is to provide for a reboot of this list. This is still the same list, but it is not as loose as it has been in some ways, and we believe that it will be more open to new and long-time users alike, while at the same time, allowing us to be productive and efficient in our discussions. Please read this letter. If you have questions, comments, or suggestions, I am requesting that you please e-mail the owner address, found at the bottom of every e-mail. These will be the guidelines moving forward for this list, and they will be sent out to all new users.

The NVDA Group – A Reboot

The NVDA Group has as its central purpose discussing how to use NVDA in order to accomplish any specific task an end user has in mind.  Like all screen readers, it is a tool for accessing something else, and really serves no other purpose.  Its function as an accessibility tool is, of course, its reason for being.

The group has existed for some time now with “unwritten rules or guidelines” some of which really do warrant being put into writing, and I will try to set forth some of those here, illustrating some with examples.

The group has subgroups, the main one of which is the Chat Subgroup (see: https://nvda.groups.io/g/chat, Group Email Addresses section) that has as its purpose the asking of virtually any “off-topic” question about anything you can think of, including just socializing.  It should be used for exactly that purpose.  If you ask yourself the question, “Is what I’m about to ask related to using NVDA directly to accomplish something, using a specific program with NVDA, or to control NVDA itself?,” and the answer is, “No,” then the topic belongs in the NVDA Chat Subgroup, not on the main group.

Respectful, even if slightly heated, disagreements will occur occasionally and will be tolerated provided what is described next does not occur.  Flaming, name calling, instigating arguments for their own sake that do nothing to advance anyone’s knowledge, pointed rudeness, and similar boorish behavior will not be tolerated.  If at any point one of you happens upon a message anywhere in the NVDA Group sphere, main or chat, that you feel fits that description then please report it to the group owner either via e-mail at, nvda+owner@nvda.groups.io, or, if you read via the web interface at https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/topics, then use the Report this message option that’s a part of the More button at the end of each message.  Please don’t add a protest message the topic.  If we receive a report and agree with it, the issue will be taken care of promptly.

In order to make your experience with the NVDA Group as easy as it can be, we are asking members to please consider the following:

1.       Using threaded or conversation view in their respective e-mail client programs and reading through the entirety of a thread before replying.  It gets you completely up to speed and avoids a lot of repetition.  If you choose not to use threaded/conversation view, please take the time to read through all messages from the group that are in your inbox prior to adding any reply to the group.  It’s the only way you can be sure you’re up to speed on any topic when not using threaded/conversation view.

2.       If you are virtually certain that your question has likely been asked, and answered, in the past please search the Group Archive first.  The Group Archive is located at  https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/topics.  At the very top of the page is a search button that allows you to enter the search terms, including exact phrases if you enclose them in quotations, you need to find what you’re looking for.  If you get too much back, and need to whittle it down further, there is a Tools button on the search results page that lets you do this in a variety of ways such as specifying a time range, collapsing the individual messages back into topics, and excluding text in signatures.   You can also use a web search, if you prefer, where you include the search term site:nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/topics with whatever other search operators you might wish to get a narrower result.  Also consider using a web search first for questions that have almost certainly been asked frequently and for which myriad answers, often in the form of tutorials, already exist.

3.       Think very carefully about the title you are going to give any topic you post.  The topic is the first (and, sometimes, only) thing a member sees and that may be how they decide if they’re going to look further.   Generic titles, such as “Help Me!,” are not helpful because they give no idea about what.  Compare that to something like, “NVDA not reading Excel cell contents,” or, “NVDA setting for pronouncing numbers,” where the exact issue where help is needed is front and center.   Even something like, “Need help with the following . . .,” lets the reader know that you are going to present a list of issues.

4.       Please avoid, “What is the best . . .?,” topics, because what qualifies as “best” is entirely subjective.   Topics of this sort are also always chat topics.  If you know you have specific needs then asking, “What {insert program type here} has the following features . . .,” is much more descriptive.   If you want to know what programs people like for a specific task, asking, “What’s your favorite . . . and why?,” is far more likely to get you the details you want to have.  Notice that none of the above questions include, “to work with NVDA.”  If you’re asking something like, “Which {insert program class here} has worked well for you with NVDA?,” then it’s a main group topic.

5.       Any topic that is not about using NVDA to accomplish a task, or how to control NVDA, belongs in the chat subgroup, not the main group.

The moderator and owner will be taking the above into account, and will be trying follow those guidelines very closely for themselves and all members, which really should not be difficult.  There will likely be some locking of topics the main group accompanied by a note that the chat subgroup is where it should be taken up until it becomes habitual for those looking for “off central topic” information to start topics on the chat group.  If we lock your topic please do not take it as a personal affront; this transition will come more naturally to some than others, and there are limited options for gentle guidance after a point.

I will also ask that everyone take the time to read the following tutorial, which I put together, about:

Controlling the Messages You Receive via E-Mail from Groups.io (docx)

Controlling the Messages You Receive via E-Mail from Groups.io  (PDF)

Each of you has the ability to mute topics that don’t interest you, get digests instead of individual messages, or to set up topic preview for yourself via the Following Only and First Messages Also features used in conjunction with each other.  It is up to you to use those to manage your e-mail as you see fit.  It’s almost certain that there will be plenty of topics on the chat subgroup that will not be of the least interest to you as an individual. Setting up topic preview lets you pick and choose what you want to continue to see, and this function can be used on any Groups.io group.

Cultures are created by the consistent application of guidelines and rules, and that’s what we’re setting out to do.

Sincerely,

Nimer Jaber                                     Brian Vogel

NVDA Group Owner                       NVDA Group Moderator

 

 

For those who want the comprehensive list of e-mail addresses for the NVDA Chat Subgroup sent to them via e-mail for future reference, send a message to:

chat+help@nvda.groups.io

and you'll have all of them.    If you happen to want the same for the NVDA main group, send a message to nvda+help@nvda.groups.io.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.

           ~ Edward Abbey

 

 

 

Hello All NVDA List Members,

Well, the Reboot is officially upon us, per the list owner, Nimer Jaber’s, directive in his administrative notice, Important: List Conduct.   Application of the rules and guidelines will begin as of midnight on April 14, 2019.  I sincerely ask the membership to help during this transition.

I will be copying the Reboot document immediately following this introduction.  The first thing I want to emphasize is that the main thing we are asking each and every member to do, prior to choosing whether to launch a new topic on the main NVDA group versus the Chat Subgroup, is to ask yourself the question:  “Is what I’m about to ask related to using NVDA directly to accomplish something, using a specific program with NVDA, or to control NVDA itself?”   If you feel the answer is, “Yes,” then launch that topic on the main NVDA group, and if , “No,” on the Chat subgroup (which has not been, at least primarily, composed of “chit chat”).

It is not my intent, and I’m certain that it’s not Nimer’s, either, to be unduly restrictive nor punishing.  This being a period of transition all of us, including me, will be doing some feeling out and finding our respective footing.  So, if I ask that a topic be moved, whether from main to chat or vice versa, it’s a way for you to see what I’m thinking about how, “the one rule,” embodied in the question previously mentioned should be applied.  Asking for a topic to be taken up “on the other side” should not be considered a chastisement, nor should my locking a topic to prevent further replies on what I’ve classified as “the wrong side” for that particular topic.   I have options limited by Groups.io to allow me to guide and steer.  Eventually we’ll all be “on the same page” after enough time, and examples, have gone by.  There will be plenty of times where the distinction will be less than entirely clear, too, and other times where it’s crystal clear.  I shall try my best to be consistent, and will sometimes fail, I’m sure.

Again, for your convenience, the Chat Subgroup addresses are:

Only members of the NVDA Group are eligible to subscribe to the Chat Subgroup, and this is how subgroups work on Groups.io.  You must be a member of the parent group first.

My final note is that the Reboot document is, by its nature, prescriptive.  It lays out “the one rule” along with a lot of guidelines.  Guidelines are not demands or orders, but requests for very serious consideration, which we hope you all will give them.   If there are any questions regarding learning how to follow any of those guidelines, please ask on the Chat subgroup.  There are many, including myself, ready, willing, and able to assist you with that and all sorts of other technical questions not related to NVDA itself.  You now have a venue to seek those answers among a group of people you already know.

Brian Vogel

NVDA Group Moderator


The NVDA Group – A Reboot

The NVDA Group has as its central purpose discussing how to use NVDA in order to accomplish any specific task an end user has in mind.  Like all screen readers, it is a tool for accessing something else, and really serves no other purpose.  Its function as an accessibility tool is, of course, its reason for being.

The group has existed for some time now with “unwritten rules or guidelines” some of which really do warrant being put into writing, and I will try to set forth some of those here, illustrating some with examples.

The group has subgroups, the main one of which is the Chat Subgroup (see: https://nvda.groups.io/g/chat, Group Email Addresses section) that has as its purpose the asking of virtually any “off-topic” question about anything you can think of, including just socializing.  It should be used for exactly that purpose.  If you ask yourself the question, “Is what I’m about to ask related to using NVDA directly to accomplish something, using a specific program with NVDA, or to control NVDA itself?,” and the answer is, “No,” then the topic belongs in the NVDA Chat Subgroup, not on the main group.

Respectful, even if slightly heated, disagreements will occur occasionally and will be tolerated provided what is described next does not occur.  Flaming, name calling, instigating arguments for their own sake that do nothing to advance anyone’s knowledge, pointed rudeness, and similar boorish behavior will not be tolerated.  If at any point one of you happens upon a message anywhere in the NVDA Group sphere, main or chat, that you feel fits that description then please report it to the group owner either via e-mail at, nvda+owner@nvda.groups.io, or, if you read via the web interface at https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/topics, then use the Report this message option that’s a part of the More button at the end of each message.  Please don’t add a protest message the topic.  If we receive a report and agree with it, the issue will be taken care of promptly.

In order to make your experience with the NVDA Group as easy as it can be, we are asking members to please consider the following:

1.       Using threaded or conversation view in their respective e-mail client programs and reading through the entirety of a thread before replying.  It gets you completely up to speed and avoids a lot of repetition.  If you choose not to use threaded/conversation view, please take the time to read through all messages from the group that are in your inbox prior to adding any reply to the group.  It’s the only way you can be sure you’re up to speed on any topic when not using threaded/conversation view.

2.       If you are virtually certain that your question has likely been asked, and answered, in the past please search the Group Archive first.  The Group Archive is located at  https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/topics.  At the very top of the page is a search button that allows you to enter the search terms, including exact phrases if you enclose them in quotations, you need to find what you’re looking for.  If you get too much back, and need to whittle it down further, there is a Tools button on the search results page that lets you do this in a variety of ways such as specifying a time range, collapsing the individual messages back into topics, and excluding text in signatures.   You can also use a web search, if you prefer, where you include the search term site:nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/topics with whatever other search operators you might wish to get a narrower result.  Also consider using a web search first for questions that have almost certainly been asked frequently and for which myriad answers, often in the form of tutorials, already exist.

3.       Think very carefully about the title you are going to give any topic you post.  The topic is the first (and, sometimes, only) thing a member sees and that may be how they decide if they’re going to look further.   Generic titles, such as “Help Me!,” are not helpful because they give no idea about what.  Compare that to something like, “NVDA not reading Excel cell contents,” or, “NVDA setting for pronouncing numbers,” where the exact issue where help is needed is front and center.   Even something like, “Need help with the following . . .,” lets the reader know that you are going to present a list of issues.

4.       Please avoid, “What is the best . . .?,” topics, because what qualifies as “best” is entirely subjective.   Topics of this sort are also always chat topics.  If you know you have specific needs then asking, “What {insert program type here} has the following features . . .,” is much more descriptive.   If you want to know what programs people like for a specific task, asking, “What’s your favorite . . . and why?,” is far more likely to get you the details you want to have.  Notice that none of the above questions include, “to work with NVDA.”  If you’re asking something like, “Which {insert program class here} has worked well for you with NVDA?,” then it’s a main group topic.

5.       Any topic that is not about using NVDA to accomplish a task, or how to control NVDA, belongs in the chat subgroup, not the main group.

The moderator and owner will be taking the above into account, and will be trying follow those guidelines very closely for themselves and all members, which really should not be difficult.  There will likely be some locking of topics the main group accompanied by a note that the chat subgroup is where it should be taken up until it becomes habitual for those looking for “off central topic” information to start topics on the chat group.  If we lock your topic please do not take it as a personal affront; this transition will come more naturally to some than others, and there are limited options for gentle guidance after a point.

I will also ask that everyone take the time to read the following tutorial, which I put together, about:

Controlling the Messages You Receive via E-Mail from Groups.io (docx)

Controlling the Messages You Receive via E-Mail from Groups.io  (PDF)

Each of you has the ability to mute topics that don’t interest you, get digests instead of individual messages, or to set up topic preview for yourself via the Following Only and First Messages Also features used in conjunction with each other.  It is up to you to use those to manage your e-mail as you see fit.  It’s almost certain that there will be plenty of topics on the chat subgroup that will not be of the least interest to you as an individual. Setting up topic preview lets you pick and choose what you want to continue to see, and this function can be used on any Groups.io group.

Cultures are created by the consistent application of guidelines and rules, and that’s what we’re setting out to do.

Sincerely,

Nimer Jaber                                     Brian Vogel
NVDA Group Owner                        NVDA Group Moderator