Observation of Reply Behaviour of Some List Members
|
Andre Fisher
Hi.
I've noticed a lot recently, that when a topic is replied to, some list members do not read the responses to the initial post. This is evident when someone asks a question, then gets a response, likely answering the question or resolving an issue. Subsequent responses to the thread seek to provide the same response, sometimes more than once, with the same solution/answer, or questions relating to the issue, even after the opening poster has stated in the thread that all is resolved. Is there a good explanation for this? Now, I am not a moderator, so can't enforce anything, but I find it very annoying to have to skip through multiple messages of the same origin. Why don't persons read the thread in its entirety before posting? |
|
|
|
Felix G.
Hi,
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I can only speak from my experience. Years ago I used to behave in the same way, and the reason was that my mail reader wasn't configured to a thread-centric view but rather to a message-centric one, so my inbox was a one-dimensional list of messages. Nowadays I only use the Gmail web interface and that sorts everything by threads, by importance, and by lots of other criteria only the Google AI knows. Best, Felix Am Fr., 12. Apr. 2019 um 07:31 Uhr schrieb Andre Fisher <andrefisher729@...>:
|
|
|
|
Gene
If people want to read mail by thread, that will
organize mail by topic and people may want to do this. But you can use an
e-mail program. You don't have to use a web page and I argue that you
don't benefit to a significant extent, if at all, by using a web interface in
that regard.
I read almost all list mail and I don't bother to
have it grouped. But grouped or not, if people keep messages they may want
to respond to and delete the rest as they read, however they read list mail,
including in an e-mail program, they will automatically then have only messages
they might want to reply to. And they will already know if they have new
information to add or would only be repeating what others have said.
I'm emphasizing that an e-mail program can be used
perfectly well for this because it is important that people not believe that
using a web interface, which a lot of blind people don't want to do, is not at
all necessary to do this. Just read what you want as usual, and keep
messages you may want to reply to.
Gene ----- Original Message -----
From: Felix G.
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 1:44 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Observation of Reply Behaviour of Some List
Members I can only speak from my experience. Years ago I used to behave in the same way, and the reason was that my mail reader wasn't configured to a thread-centric view but rather to a message-centric one, so my inbox was a one-dimensional list of messages. Nowadays I only use the Gmail web interface and that sorts everything by threads, by importance, and by lots of other criteria only the Google AI knows. Best, Felix Am Fr., 12. Apr. 2019 um 07:31 Uhr schrieb Andre Fisher <andrefisher729@...>: > > Hi. > > I've noticed a lot recently, that when a topic is replied to, some list members do not read the responses to the initial post. This is evident when someone asks a question, then gets a response, likely answering the question or resolving an issue. Subsequent responses to the thread seek to provide the same response, sometimes more than once, with the same solution/answer, or questions relating to the issue, even after the opening poster has stated in the thread that all is resolved. Is there a good explanation for this? Now, I am not a moderator, so can't enforce anything, but I find it very annoying to have to skip through multiple messages of the same origin. Why don't persons read the thread in its entirety before posting? > |
|
|
|
Brian's Mail list account
At the risk of sounding like a broken record. The mail feed from my isp can be severely time warped. The key effect of this is that the replies that you see are not visible to myself maybe for some hours.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Brian our moderator does not agree that this can occur, but those of us here in the UK using Virginmedia (maybe others too), will know it happens. Nobody at virgin will admit it does. I do not feel that this minor issue will be enough for me to switch all subscriptions to gmail or some other provider, so apologies if this sometimes looks like one has not read the entire thread, but this is how life works and we live with it. Brian bglists@... Sent via blueyonder. Please address personal E-mail to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field. ----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 8:08 AM Subject: Re: [nvda] Observation of Reply Behaviour of Some List Members If people want to read mail by thread, that will organize mail by topic and people may want to do this. But you can use an e-mail program. You don't have to use a web page and I argue that you don't benefit to a significant extent, if at all, by using a web interface in that regard. I read almost all list mail and I don't bother to have it grouped. But grouped or not, if people keep messages they may want to respond to and delete the rest as they read, however they read list mail, including in an e-mail program, they will automatically then have only messages they might want to reply to. And they will already know if they have new information to add or would only be repeating what others have said. I'm emphasizing that an e-mail program can be used perfectly well for this because it is important that people not believe that using a web interface, which a lot of blind people don't want to do, is not at all necessary to do this. Just read what you want as usual, and keep messages you may want to reply to. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Felix G. Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 1:44 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Observation of Reply Behaviour of Some List Members Hi, I can only speak from my experience. Years ago I used to behave in the same way, and the reason was that my mail reader wasn't configured to a thread-centric view but rather to a message-centric one, so my inbox was a one-dimensional list of messages. Nowadays I only use the Gmail web interface and that sorts everything by threads, by importance, and by lots of other criteria only the Google AI knows. Best, Felix Am Fr., 12. Apr. 2019 um 07:31 Uhr schrieb Andre Fisher <andrefisher729@...>:
|
|
|
|
Tyler Wood
Hi,
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
The really frustrating part of this is when mail clients don't honor the thread system to begin with, which then adds even more confusion when you have 2 or more threads with the same subject and are actually trying to follow those threads. Someone could reply to a message in one thread but said message could have actually been meant for a reply in the *other* thread with the exact same subject. Threaded view is something I can't recommend enough, with that being said. It makes it oh so easy to browse through a higher traffic mailing list and read through the subjects we're interested in as well as, most importantly, making sure a question has indeed been answered before hitting that reply button. Why mail clients are still, in 2019 not honoring the threaded view and starting an entire new one is beyond me - is there anything specific that would cause such a thing? -----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Felix G. Sent: April 12, 2019 1:44 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Observation of Reply Behaviour of Some List Members Hi, I can only speak from my experience. Years ago I used to behave in the same way, and the reason was that my mail reader wasn't configured to a thread-centric view but rather to a message-centric one, so my inbox was a one-dimensional list of messages. Nowadays I only use the Gmail web interface and that sorts everything by threads, by importance, and by lots of other criteria only the Google AI knows. Best, Felix Am Fr., 12. Apr. 2019 um 07:31 Uhr schrieb Andre Fisher <andrefisher729@...>:
|
|
|
|
Tyler Wood
Just an addition to this. In a lot of mail programs, threaded view can be found under the view menu. When enabled, your messages, essentially, turn into a tree view of sorts with the ability to expand and collapse each thread, or subject, as you see fit. Pressing the delete key on a closed thread will delete the entire thing – thus removing the step of deleting each and every message. And, as mentioned, a web interface is certainly not needed for this whatsoever.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: April 12, 2019 2:08 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Observation of Reply Behaviour of Some List Members
If people want to read mail by thread, that will organize mail by topic and people may want to do this. But you can use an e-mail program. You don't have to use a web page and I argue that you don't benefit to a significant extent, if at all, by using a web interface in that regard.
I read almost all list mail and I don't bother to have it grouped. But grouped or not, if people keep messages they may want to respond to and delete the rest as they read, however they read list mail, including in an e-mail program, they will automatically then have only messages they might want to reply to. And they will already know if they have new information to add or would only be repeating what others have said.
I'm emphasizing that an e-mail program can be used perfectly well for this because it is important that people not believe that using a web interface, which a lot of blind people don't want to do, is not at all necessary to do this. Just read what you want as usual, and keep messages you may want to reply to.
Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Felix G. Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 1:44 AM Subject: Re: [nvda] Observation of Reply Behaviour of Some List Members
Hi, |
|
|
|
On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 03:51 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
Brian our moderator does not agree that this can occurBrian, please, please, please stop harping on this!! I have never, ever said it cannot occur. I have said it is exceedingly rare for the vast majority of users around the world, and it is. I have been in the computing world full time since the 1980s and the kinds of issue you routinely describe yourself as having is not, in any way, characteristic of most users experiences, period. You are having a long term problem with your ISP. It is up to you to get that fixed via your ISP or change ISPs. General policy or expectation should not be set based on idiosyncratic behavior by an ISP, and cannot be. Extremely delayed or out of order delivery is very, very, very rare for most users of e-mail and, as such, will never be presumed to be the norm. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. ~ Edward Abbey
|
|
|
|
On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 04:22 AM, Tyler Wood wrote:
Why mail clients are still, in 2019 not honoring the threaded view and starting an entire new one is beyond me - is there anything specific that would cause such a thing?Yes, it depends entirely on what a given e-mail client uses to build threads. Most use a combination of actual subject along with any one of several other e-mail header fields that most of us don't ever see because we don't display e-mail headers in full. One big problem that occurs far more frequently on some of the blind technology related lists is that subjects accidentally get changed, causing a topic split when none was intended. All it takes is adding a space or deleting one in a Subject: field and, bang, new topic. When I actually see this occurring on the archive I immediately merge the "stray" back into the original and just pray that whoever follows up might not follow-up directly to the stray. We also see this happen when folks use e-mail classification programs that intentionally alter the Subject: field by adding text to it, e.g., [spam] or something similar. Most threading algorithms these days pay a lot of attention to the content of Subject:. It has, in fact, become common to make that the primary determinant in deciding, "What is a thread/conversation?" It's presumed that if someone is deliberately altering the Subject: field in an ongoing topic it's because they're intentionally trying to spin-off a different topic. So the best thing one can do to avoid accidental topic/thread/conversation splits is to leave the Subject: field unchanged. The second thing is to avoid using just altering the subject as a "new thread creation" technique. Starting a new topic via the posting address absolutely guarantees that a new thread/conversation/topic is going to be created even if it were to have exactly the same title as an existing one (which, I'd have to believe everyone knows, is a very bad idea). -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. ~ Edward Abbey
|
|
|
|
I get all my groups.io messages in a daily summary, which forces me to read the thread as a whole because messages are not displayed in the message window like in digest mode. There's a link to the topic, and, I click the link. For some lists, I change my subscription to, first message only, which sends me the first messages in a thread but does not send me the replies unless I start a thread or reply to a thread. There's links at the bottom of every message to view threads anyway, so why bother getting each and every message. I also just now learned how to change the, all mail, folder in gmail to threaded view in thunderbird, by looking at the thread, so, thanks, poster #4 or whoever it was. To change the subscription via email, if anybody is curious, not sure why the first message only option isn't in the list of email commands, send an email to the below. nvda+help@nvda.groups.io |
|
|
|
In my case my program hides already read emails so if I am to reply to somethingn I then have to go to my sources list and scrol to the essages I want to reply to. It's a catch 22. Take care On 11 Apr 2019, at 22:31, Andre Fisher wrote:
|
|
|
|
On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 11:41 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
In my case my program hides already read emailsWhat e-mail client are you using, if I may ask? That's a behavior that generally requires a single click to expand a conversation/thread, to remedy and where unread messages are either at the beginning or end of a conversation/thread, depending on the sort order you've chosen. What you describe as a "sources list" is entirely alien to me, but that's probably because I don't know what it is you're referring to. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. ~ Edward Abbey
|
|
|
|
I did the same think on OE. It would hide the unread count and I would not see the messages until I either clicked show all or went into a sources list, it's ben almost 20 years now so can't remember. Look up mail mate for the mac. It is just beautiful. I never ever if I can help it read my mail in windows, or anywhere else for that matter. I believe aqua mail can do the same thing but I'm not sure. I'm still learning that interface as it changed. If anyone has any questions join the android list at the bottom of my sig. There you can discuss aqua ail to your hart's content. Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website: http://www.tffppodcast.com The listen page is found here. Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here: For an android list in the making where android apps, accessibility, phones and development can be discussed subscribe send a blank email to On 12 Apr 2019, at 9:11, Brian Vogel wrote:
|
|
|
|
Ron Canazzi
Hello Brian,
Remember not everybody in the world is using high speed cable or Fiber optics. Many people in developing countries do indeed have slow connections and will have out of sequence e-mail delivery. Flaming those people/countries is not good Internet practice.
On 4/12/2019 9:27 AM, Brian Vogel
wrote:
On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 03:51 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote: -- They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes. They ask: "How Happy are You?" I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!" |
|
|
|
Actually I do know some people in the US who still are on dial up and they take about 30 minutes to receive as much mail as we do so I agree with the poster below mine. I used to be there, in fact for some reason I'm there today, maybe somethingn broke due to our weather. Tryig to keep up so I can teach class tomorrow. On 12 Apr 2019, at 14:08, Ron Canazzi wrote:
|
|
|
|
On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 05:08 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:
Flaming those people/countries is not good Internet practiceThat you consider statement of fact "flaming" is a reflection on you, not me. I used dial-up for well over a decade. It's painfully slow but it never resulted in e-mail being delivered out of sequence. The stuff is coming straight off of the server, which already has it sequenced long before I get to it. You just want me to consider something as common which decades of experience tell me absolutely is not. I will not be changing my mind on this, as the facts don't support a change of mind. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. ~ Edward Abbey
|
|
|
|
Andre Fisher
Hi.
So in other words, you know this happens, but for your own comfort, and disregarding the views of others, you won't seek to address it with a simple solution? Because that is how life is, and we should live with it? |
|
|
|
Andre Fisher
Hi.
At no time have I heard any flaming from the moderator. However, as the person that initiated this thread, I have gotten some great reasons and responses to my question. It can be a combination of attitudes and behaviours, as well as technology and software playing a role in the late delivery of messages. Still, I hope this type of issue can be resolved. |
|
|
|
Ron Canazzi
Well I personally had a lot of out of sequence stuff when I used dial-up. I used to get yelled at by hard headed moderators for answering messages that had already been answered and I hadn't received them as of yet. Then an hour or 2 after the moderator's displeasure, there it came big as life. That's why for a while there back in about 1999, I was very tentative about answering messages on some lists for fear that they had already been answered and I would get an abusive comment from some moderator.
Fortunately, that's all over now since 2001 and my cable modem service.
On 4/12/2019 6:22 PM, Brian Vogel
wrote:
On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 05:08 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote: -- They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes. They ask: "How Happy are You?" I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!" |
|
|
|
To be honest, if you get this abuse you should switch off those lists. I have been banned for being out of timezone, usually I have looked at lists and answered what I think I should. Most of the back and forth chat I usually don't answer especially if its not directed at me or is a general message, and it goes without saying that unless its open and I think I can answer it I just don't bother. Yeah, dialup still exists. It depends on what you have though. Gmail definitely makes a load of difference. In the early days 2001 I think, I was in a bording education system using their secured network. SSl was available but not as yet via the net. Email lists via isps worked through pop but if you were in a secured network with strict filtering this never worked. I kept being told I was spamming and being bounced, I was routeenly being banned by moderators because of bouncing. I was able to contact yahoo I think for yahoogroups and get them to unbounce me every time that happened, then when I got home I had to handle all the traffic from my local network. A year later we got ssl. Now days we don't even think about it anymore. My isp is now fully ssl and while its faster to go unprotected I wouldn't go back. Dsl was good as was adsl but with the event of fibre and wireless broadband its a load better still. There are still issues with wireless signals, and once my isp stops having issues with ac routers and some mobile devices I will be upgrading my internal coms isp controler and extra hardware but at least now, my extender is getting the full 300 mbps rather than the 150 mbps it was getting so thats a pluss. My aunt has mobile wireless and that just works. I can remember where you used 1 device per line and had to limit to time what was what.
On 13/04/2019 4:58 PM, Ron Canazzi
wrote:
|
|
|
|
Lets face it, most of the repetitions are the direct result of the individual posting the repeat not having read through the topic in its entirety before replying. This can be easily inferred by the fact that very frequently the quoted material, even hours and days later, is the initial message.
No one is complaining about several people jumping on a given message at approximately the same time and there being overlapping responses. It happens all the time when folks are responding to the same request, usually very promptly, and having started within minutes of each other. But when you're seeing messages coming in hours to days later, and it does happen, particularly hours later, when there have often been one or more responses of exactly the same nature well ahead of the late replies, the reasonable conclusion is that the person doing the responding has not read through the entire topic. It is a perfectly reasonable request to ask the membership to review the entirety of a topic that's already available to them in their inboxes before replying. It can and does cut down on unnecessary (and that's the key adjective here) repetition. Topics in general are going to recur over time, as is completely natural. That's not the kind of repetition that is being referred to by the original poster or by me or by the group guidelines. All anyone is asking is that you have a cruise through all the messages you already have for a given topic before posting your own reply. Using conversation or threaded view in e-mail clients makes this particular request a cinch to accomplish. Even if you don't wish to use that view, searching on the subject to create a "temporary topic view" allows you to do the same thing. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. ~ Edward Abbey
|
|
|