locked Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion


 

Hi.

Since the list is a bit quiet, and such, I propose the next discussion should be on nvda's features, and why we put them there especially the older ones.

I'd like to talk about intergration of addons and features that have been round for ages.

1 ducking.

Can someone remind me why we had it in the first place.

I've always been apposed to it, mainly because of the fact no one really uses it, at least I cann't see any reason a normal user like myself either on office or a gamer like me would need it in general.

I could see it when ducking some sounds, maybe or just turning down volumes.

I just answered a message with it in, but I have never cared for it.

I think this feature should go unless its used.

I also think stable addons that have been stable for 1 year or so maybe 6 months to 1 year should be reviewed for nvda core, and if not within a 2 year period if not further developed.

The following should be conciddered.

1.  if interpritors by nick stocton.

Unless this addon has any new version changes then I have used it with frotz and winglulx, tads, and its stable enough to put it in or at least native support of it.

1.  the image describer while new shows promise though having that could be an eventual support down the road.

Not sure about all the text and brousernav addons.

But all the program support addons, eg winamp, dropbox, outlook, teamtalk, etc should eventually go into nvda, as well as goldwave.

Calibre and toolbars explorer maybe and easy table nav.

THe math support, the updater eventually, the mozilla addon, and a few things like that.

This should extend to any addons that are used which havn't been updated for ages but look good, app support, and a few features.

I also think that sound scheme support for alternit sounds and theme support maybe similar to windows sound schemes should be part of nvda.

I also don't mind paying for professional theme packs for nvda.

This is not just the addons on the site excluding alegal addons and stuff used for one thing only, but especially with the nvda python3 project, eventually well next build we will start loosing addons that are not compatible.

And a few addons havn't had updates for whatever reason, maybe some of these are stable enough and don't need any.


Vlad Dragomir
 

Hello,

 

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

 

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

 

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

 

Cheers,

 

Vlad.


 

The only thing I agree with you on is the second bit of your message. Otherwise, you're wrong about the notion that people don't use ducking. I don't have the patience to explain to you why you are wrong, but you are wrong. As for your other points, some of those are valid. But how about you make an actual poll or survey rather than pretending like you know what we want.


Gene
 

I think that perhaps the most important reason to add certain add-ons to the program itself is that a lot of NVDA users don't know, and won't know, that add-ons exist or where to get them. 
 
I'm very curious if anyone has any idea what percent of NVDA users use add--ons and knows where to get them and how to see what is available.  It may not be practical to do such a study but I'd be surprised if more than thirty or forty percent of NVDA users use add-ons.  And some of those users may use ones that instructors told them about or installed.  The user may not know where to get them or where to find out what is available.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 7:57 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

Hello,

 

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

 

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

 

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

 

Cheers,

 

Vlad.


Lenron
 

I am sure many people miss out on addons because they don't know about them.

On 4/28/19, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
I think that perhaps the most important reason to add certain add-ons to the
program itself is that a lot of NVDA users don't know, and won't know, that
add-ons exist or where to get them.

I'm very curious if anyone has any idea what percent of NVDA users use
add--ons and knows where to get them and how to see what is available. It
may not be practical to do such a study but I'd be surprised if more than
thirty or forty percent of NVDA users use add-ons. And some of those users
may use ones that instructors told them about or installed. The user may
not know where to get them or where to find out what is available.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Vlad Dragomir
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 7:57 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features
proposal and wider discussion


Hello,



Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be
indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would
include Screen Curtain among those.



On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function.
It’s extremely useful, especially with services like Youtube or Google
Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having
to close everything else.



Let’s see what other opinions come up!



Cheers,



Vlad.




--
Lenron Brown
Cell: 985-271-2832
Skype: ron.brown762


Devin Prater
 

Wait, there's an addon for Outlook?

On Apr 28, 2019, at 7:18 AM, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi.

Since the list is a bit quiet, and such, I propose the next discussion should be on nvda's features, and why we put them there especially the older ones.

I'd like to talk about intergration of addons and features that have been round for ages.

1 ducking.

Can someone remind me why we had it in the first place.

I've always been apposed to it, mainly because of the fact no one really uses it, at least I cann't see any reason a normal user like myself either on office or a gamer like me would need it in general.

I could see it when ducking some sounds, maybe or just turning down volumes.

I just answered a message with it in, but I have never cared for it.

I think this feature should go unless its used.

I also think stable addons that have been stable for 1 year or so maybe 6 months to 1 year should be reviewed for nvda core, and if not within a 2 year period if not further developed.

The following should be conciddered.

1. if interpritors by nick stocton.

Unless this addon has any new version changes then I have used it with frotz and winglulx, tads, and its stable enough to put it in or at least native support of it.

1. the image describer while new shows promise though having that could be an eventual support down the road.

Not sure about all the text and brousernav addons.

But all the program support addons, eg winamp, dropbox, outlook, teamtalk, etc should eventually go into nvda, as well as goldwave.

Calibre and toolbars explorer maybe and easy table nav.

THe math support, the updater eventually, the mozilla addon, and a few things like that.

This should extend to any addons that are used which havn't been updated for ages but look good, app support, and a few features.

I also think that sound scheme support for alternit sounds and theme support maybe similar to windows sound schemes should be part of nvda.

I also don't mind paying for professional theme packs for nvda.

This is not just the addons on the site excluding alegal addons and stuff used for one thing only, but especially with the nvda python3 project, eventually well next build we will start loosing addons that are not compatible.

And a few addons havn't had updates for whatever reason, maybe some of these are stable enough and don't need any.





 

On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 09:56 AM, Devin Prater wrote:
Wait, there's an addon for Outlook?
When I see things like this my jaw drops?   The official NVDA Add-Ons Page, whose address has been posted hundreds of times, is:  https://addons.nvda-project.org/index.en.html.

Each add-on is presented, by title, as a link on the page.   If you, any you, who've been an NVDA user and participant on any NVDA related list/forum for a long time have never bothered to go there and do a cruise-through of the links to see what's what you have no one to blame but yourselves.

I'm not about to give the actual link in this case, but the fact that there is an add-on named Outlook Extended answers that question.

[The above may not apply to Devin if that comment was in jest, but it certainly applies to any member who's been on this list for at least a month.  Go look, and if you need to activate an add-on title to get a further description of its function, well . . . ]
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.

           ~ Edward Abbey

 

 


Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Vlad,


I agree with you on the ducting.  I don't use it a lot with NVDA because I use a computer and long before ducting, I used 2 separate sound cards and have total control.  However, I am using ducting on the iPhone and the way Apple has instituted it works great and is definitely an advantage.  For those who can't run 2 separate sound cards, it is truly a godsend.


As far as including a huge number of add-ons with NVDA, I  also disagree with this one.  One of the good things about NVDA is that it is under public license and is subject to a lot of different additions and variations. I would hate to see it become so bulky that is gets like JAWS which has so much bloteware and features that many people don't use that it is at times extremely redundant.  People in developing countries probably appreciate the slim and streamline aspects of NVDA.  If they need it only for word processing, why should they have to include a bunch of add-ons that would make the download so much larger and perhaps create a situation where there could be conflicts with their desired tasks.


...just my opinion.


On 4/28/2019 8:57 AM, Vlad Dragomir wrote:

Hello,

 

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

 

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

 

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

 

Cheers,

 

Vlad.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Gene,


You make a good point, but that could easily be rectified if during the install, there is a reference screen that says something like: "You have just installed the basic NVDA package.  NVDA is a flexible program and there are additional add-ons which can expand the functionality of NVDA for such programs as Winamp, Thunderbird, ETC.  The add-ons can be found at..."  This would inform anyone installing the program that major enhancements can be added to NVDA functionality by the use of add-ons.


On 4/28/2019 9:40 AM, Gene wrote:
I think that perhaps the most important reason to add certain add-ons to the program itself is that a lot of NVDA users don't know, and won't know, that add-ons exist or where to get them. 
 
I'm very curious if anyone has any idea what percent of NVDA users use add--ons and knows where to get them and how to see what is available.  It may not be practical to do such a study but I'd be surprised if more than thirty or forty percent of NVDA users use add-ons.  And some of those users may use ones that instructors told them about or installed.  The user may not know where to get them or where to find out what is available.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 7:57 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

Hello,

 

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

 

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

 

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

 

Cheers,

 

Vlad.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Rui Fontes
 

The education about how NVDA works, about the existence of add-ons and so on, it is not one of the major responsabilities of the various local communities?

At least, for the portuguese community, it is, and we are doing a good job, proven by the continuos growth of user basis...

Rui Fontes
NVDA portuguese team

Às 15:33 de 28/04/2019, Ron Canazzi escreveu:

Hi Gene,
You make a good point, but that could easily be rectified if during the install, there is a reference screen that says something like: "You have just installed the basic NVDA package. NVDA is a flexible program and there are additional add-ons which can expand the functionality of NVDA for such programs as Winamp, Thunderbird, ETC.  The add-ons can be found at..."  This would inform anyone installing the program that major enhancements can be added to NVDA functionality by the use of add-ons.
On 4/28/2019 9:40 AM, Gene wrote:
I think that perhaps the most important reason to add certain add-ons to the program itself is that a lot of NVDA users don't know, and won't know, that add-ons exist or where to get them.
I'm very curious if anyone has any idea what percent of NVDA users use add--ons and knows where to get them and how to see what is available.  It may not be practical to do such a study but I'd be surprised if more than thirty or forty percent of NVDA users use add-ons.  And some of those users may use ones that instructors told them about or installed.  The user may not know where to get them or where to find out what is available.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Vlad Dragomir <mailto:vladdragomir1983@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Sunday, April 28, 2019 7:57 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

Hello,

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

Cheers,

Vlad.
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


 

On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 10:26 AM, Ron Canazzi wrote:
I agree with you on the ducting.  I don't use it a lot with NVDA
Ron, what follows is not personally aimed at you, but at this concept, which several have expressed.

Whether or not you, any you, use a given feature or function is irrelevant.  You can be assured that a very great many others do.

It becomes completely irrelevant when that feature is configurable to an OFF state by the user.   All programs have features that any individual user may not like or may not use.  All programs have default settings that may not suit a given individual.  The first task of any user, with any program, is to do the exploration necessary to configure it to match their own wants and needs to the maximal extent possible.  You don't "steal features" that are assuredly used by many because you (the generic you) cannot be bothered to learn how to configure them, which includes turning them off.

Software is not now, and will never be, bespoke for any given individual unless they've written it themselves for themselves.  Something like NVDA should not be expected to be anything near to being so in its "out of the box" state.  You're going to have to tweak it to make it fit.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.

           ~ Edward Abbey

 

 


Giles Turnbull
 

Hi Shaun,

I'm not sure I agree with much of this! I like audio ducking a lot becuase there are often websites that start things playing too loudly and there is no way to navigate to the volume control if ducking is not active. I've experienced this when listening to a podcast that I wanted to listen to and I've also experienced it when going to newspaper sites and I have been listening to NVDA read the article only for it to start playing a video of some other news story and it can be difficult to navigate down to the mute button.

As for bundling addons into NVDA I suspect many people would find that getting close to being bloatware. The beauty of addons  is that we can choose whether to install themn or not, and we can uninstal them if we find we don't need them or they are interfereing with something else. I can't see (pardon the pun) the pint in adding to the size of the NVDA executable when not everybody is going to use, for example, the WinAmp addon. I do use WinAmp every day but I don't use the addon becuase I tried it and it didn't enance anything I do with WinAmp, so I uninstalled it.

SO my vote, if you're counting them, is that I would not want lots of addons bundled into NVDA by default.

I'm pretty sure there was a discussion on this around the time Screen Curtain was developed. The general agreement was that the core NVDA program should only do screen reader functions and that things like the screen curtain or the weather app, things which I think I remember JAWS coming bundled with (it's a long time since I've used JAWS) were best left as addons for individual users to decide on whether to install or not.

Just my 2 currency units' worth :)


 

Hi,

First, what I’m saying below has nothing to do with NV Access’s position on this subject – I’m sure Quentin will post something about this when he is ready.

Audio ducking (not ducting, by the way): it was added because Microsoft added necessary foundations for it in Windows 8, and users did request this feature. Note that this will work on installed copy only due to extra privilege required. We had issues with this feature in recent Windows 10 builds, but all is good now. Just because you yourself doesn’t use it should not be a reason to generalize your findings to the larger population and claim that it should be removed.

Inclusion of add-ons: not all of them, in my opinion. A recent trend has been add-ons fixing issues raised on GitHub – screen curtain sort of resolves an issue reported not long ago, and someone is indeed working on integrating this into NVDA (not me). Windows 10 App Essentials is donating some of its features to NVDA because there is a need for it (search suggestion sound was originally part of my add-on before it became a feature in NVDA not long ago).

At other times, we could have taken a poll as to which add-ons deserve to be part of NVDA. Not now: many of you may have read by now that NV Access is thinking about how to proceed with Python 3 transition, and I guarantee that some add-ons not maintained for too long, some of which were mentioned for possible inclusion into NVDA won’t function in Python 3 version of NVDA. Once NV Access officially declares Python 3 transition (any day now), I’ll instruct the add-ons community to start porting our add-ons to Python 3 and give that a priority boost for a while.

I do understand that sometimes my posts have an effect of closing this and similar discussions (that happened many times); I think just because a world-renown NVDA expert says things should not be a reason to blindly follow whatever he or she says, and I think it applies to this situation too.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Giles Turnbull
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 8:08 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi Shaun,

I'm not sure I agree with much of this! I like audio ducking a lot becuase there are often websites that start things playing too loudly and there is no way to navigate to the volume control if ducking is not active. I've experienced this when listening to a podcast that I wanted to listen to and I've also experienced it when going to newspaper sites and I have been listening to NVDA read the article only for it to start playing a video of some other news story and it can be difficult to navigate down to the mute button.

As for bundling addons into NVDA I suspect many people would find that getting close to being bloatware. The beauty of addons  is that we can choose whether to install themn or not, and we can uninstal them if we find we don't need them or they are interfereing with something else. I can't see (pardon the pun) the pint in adding to the size of the NVDA executable when not everybody is going to use, for example, the WinAmp addon. I do use WinAmp every day but I don't use the addon becuase I tried it and it didn't enance anything I do with WinAmp, so I uninstalled it.

SO my vote, if you're counting them, is that I would not want lots of addons bundled into NVDA by default.

I'm pretty sure there was a discussion on this around the time Screen Curtain was developed. The general agreement was that the core NVDA program should only do screen reader functions and that things like the screen curtain or the weather app, things which I think I remember JAWS coming bundled with (it's a long time since I've used JAWS) were best left as addons for individual users to decide on whether to install or not.

Just my 2 currency units' worth :)


Sarah k Alawami
 

I don't like the idea of number 2. I see nvda becoming very bloated. As for 1 I do use ducking if somethingn is too loud and I ned to use the screen reader. It can come in handy at times. Just because you don't use it doesn't mean anyone else won't. So I say leave ducking there.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 28 Apr 2019, at 5:18, Shaun Everiss wrote:

Hi.

Since the list is a bit quiet, and such, I propose the next discussion should be on nvda's features, and why we put them there especially the older ones.

I'd like to talk about intergration of addons and features that have been round for ages.

1 ducking.

Can someone remind me why we had it in the first place.

I've always been apposed to it, mainly because of the fact no one really uses it, at least I cann't see any reason a normal user like myself either on office or a gamer like me would need it in general.

I could see it when ducking some sounds, maybe or just turning down volumes.

I just answered a message with it in, but I have never cared for it.

I think this feature should go unless its used.

I also think stable addons that have been stable for 1 year or so maybe 6 months to 1 year should be reviewed for nvda core, and if not within a 2 year period if not further developed.

The following should be conciddered.

1.  if interpritors by nick stocton.

Unless this addon has any new version changes then I have used it with frotz and winglulx, tads, and its stable enough to put it in or at least native support of it.

1.  the image describer while new shows promise though having that could be an eventual support down the road.

Not sure about all the text and brousernav addons.

But all the program support addons, eg winamp, dropbox, outlook, teamtalk, etc should eventually go into nvda, as well as goldwave.

Calibre and toolbars explorer maybe and easy table nav.

THe math support, the updater eventually, the mozilla addon, and a few things like that.

This should extend to any addons that are used which havn't been updated for ages but look good, app support, and a few features.

I also think that sound scheme support for alternit sounds and theme support maybe similar to windows sound schemes should be part of nvda.

I also don't mind paying for professional theme packs for nvda.

This is not just the addons on the site excluding alegal addons and stuff used for one thing only, but especially with the nvda python3 project, eventually well next build we will start loosing addons that are not compatible.

And a few addons havn't had updates for whatever reason, maybe some of these are stable enough and don't need any.


Sarah k Alawami
 

No one will read that final dialogue. I don't eve rread the finished dialogues of software except to search for any errors.if info is missed, it's my fault but I don't have to time to speed read through a finished dialogue.

Take care

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 28 Apr 2019, at 7:33, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Hi Gene,


You make a good point, but that could easily be rectified if during the install, there is a reference screen that says something like: "You have just installed the basic NVDA package.  NVDA is a flexible program and there are additional add-ons which can expand the functionality of NVDA for such programs as Winamp, Thunderbird, ETC.  The add-ons can be found at..."  This would inform anyone installing the program that major enhancements can be added to NVDA functionality by the use of add-ons.


On 4/28/2019 9:40 AM, Gene wrote:
I think that perhaps the most important reason to add certain add-ons to the program itself is that a lot of NVDA users don't know, and won't know, that add-ons exist or where to get them. 
 
I'm very curious if anyone has any idea what percent of NVDA users use add--ons and knows where to get them and how to see what is available.  It may not be practical to do such a study but I'd be surprised if more than thirty or forty percent of NVDA users use add-ons.  And some of those users may use ones that instructors told them about or installed.  The user may not know where to get them or where to find out what is available.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 7:57 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

Hello,

 

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

 

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

 

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

 

Cheers,

 

Vlad.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Shaun Oliver
 

this, I am in complete agreement with, because on the whole, the concept you're proposing flies in the face of what NVDA is truly all about.


It has been stated time and time again, that they do not wish to turn the software in to bloatware, and quite frankly, we have problems a plenty with another screenreader that shall remain nameless for that very reason.


Quite apart from the fact the other charges like a wounded bull for a product that quite frankly should be readily accessible to any and all blind people, and not require a government grant just to have your computer fully functional and mildly accessible for your work place, among other things, it's fast becoming apparent that said product while a good many people like it and use it, is almost becoming as big in file size as the operating system it is supposed to make more user friendly for us.

and while you might not utilise a particular feature set,, others do, so it should not be removed because not everybody uses it. it was introduced for a very good reason and some of you are wanting that feature taken away? I'm sorry for my harsh words, but that is rather arrogant and gauche of you to believe that yours is the right way to go about things.


The developers have had to weigh up the costs of implementing certain feature sets out of the box as against the footprint on the overall system, and they have done a marvellous job at keeping that footprint relatively small.

Hell, unlike others in the field, there is no display driver added in to the video chain, and that, quite frankly is no bad thing as even something as trivial as that can and does decrease performance, especially when on the whole, UIA is a far better way of gathering the information a screenreader needs.


On 29/04/2019 00:38, Giles Turnbull wrote:
Hi Shaun,

I'm not sure I agree with much of this! I like audio ducking a lot becuase there are often websites that start things playing too loudly and there is no way to navigate to the volume control if ducking is not active. I've experienced this when listening to a podcast that I wanted to listen to and I've also experienced it when going to newspaper sites and I have been listening to NVDA read the article only for it to start playing a video of some other news story and it can be difficult to navigate down to the mute button.

As for bundling addons into NVDA I suspect many people would find that getting close to being bloatware. The beauty of addons  is that we can choose whether to install themn or not, and we can uninstal them if we find we don't need them or they are interfereing with something else. I can't see (pardon the pun) the pint in adding to the size of the NVDA executable when not everybody is going to use, for example, the WinAmp addon. I do use WinAmp every day but I don't use the addon becuase I tried it and it didn't enance anything I do with WinAmp, so I uninstalled it.

SO my vote, if you're counting them, is that I would not want lots of addons bundled into NVDA by default.

I'm pretty sure there was a discussion on this around the time Screen Curtain was developed. The general agreement was that the core NVDA program should only do screen reader functions and that things like the screen curtain or the weather app, things which I think I remember JAWS coming bundled with (it's a long time since I've used JAWS) were best left as addons for individual users to decide on whether to install or not.

Just my 2 currency units' worth :)


Shaun Oliver
 

further to my last,


I also am a firm believer that if your application has default keystrokes, you should not need to completely remap the keyboard to make the application more usable.

case in point, skype classic, the other totally remapped keystrokes that already performed other functions from within the app itself, and yet, with NVDA, I found it just as easy to use, using the default keystrokes coded in to the application, moreso than the other utilising the concept of a totally remapped keyboard command structure.


On 29/04/2019 01:13, Shaun Oliver via Groups.Io wrote:

this, I am in complete agreement with, because on the whole, the concept you're proposing flies in the face of what NVDA is truly all about.


It has been stated time and time again, that they do not wish to turn the software in to bloatware, and quite frankly, we have problems a plenty with another screenreader that shall remain nameless for that very reason.


Quite apart from the fact the other charges like a wounded bull for a product that quite frankly should be readily accessible to any and all blind people, and not require a government grant just to have your computer fully functional and mildly accessible for your work place, among other things, it's fast becoming apparent that said product while a good many people like it and use it, is almost becoming as big in file size as the operating system it is supposed to make more user friendly for us.

and while you might not utilise a particular feature set,, others do, so it should not be removed because not everybody uses it. it was introduced for a very good reason and some of you are wanting that feature taken away? I'm sorry for my harsh words, but that is rather arrogant and gauche of you to believe that yours is the right way to go about things.


The developers have had to weigh up the costs of implementing certain feature sets out of the box as against the footprint on the overall system, and they have done a marvellous job at keeping that footprint relatively small.

Hell, unlike others in the field, there is no display driver added in to the video chain, and that, quite frankly is no bad thing as even something as trivial as that can and does decrease performance, especially when on the whole, UIA is a far better way of gathering the information a screenreader needs.


On 29/04/2019 00:38, Giles Turnbull wrote:
Hi Shaun,

I'm not sure I agree with much of this! I like audio ducking a lot becuase there are often websites that start things playing too loudly and there is no way to navigate to the volume control if ducking is not active. I've experienced this when listening to a podcast that I wanted to listen to and I've also experienced it when going to newspaper sites and I have been listening to NVDA read the article only for it to start playing a video of some other news story and it can be difficult to navigate down to the mute button.

As for bundling addons into NVDA I suspect many people would find that getting close to being bloatware. The beauty of addons  is that we can choose whether to install themn or not, and we can uninstal them if we find we don't need them or they are interfereing with something else. I can't see (pardon the pun) the pint in adding to the size of the NVDA executable when not everybody is going to use, for example, the WinAmp addon. I do use WinAmp every day but I don't use the addon becuase I tried it and it didn't enance anything I do with WinAmp, so I uninstalled it.

SO my vote, if you're counting them, is that I would not want lots of addons bundled into NVDA by default.

I'm pretty sure there was a discussion on this around the time Screen Curtain was developed. The general agreement was that the core NVDA program should only do screen reader functions and that things like the screen curtain or the weather app, things which I think I remember JAWS coming bundled with (it's a long time since I've used JAWS) were best left as addons for individual users to decide on whether to install or not.

Just my 2 currency units' worth :)


 

On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 11:31 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
I’ll instruct the add-ons community to start porting our add-ons to Python 3 and give that a priority boost for a while.
And, for the flip side of the "features" coin, add-on support only lasts as long as there's someone willing and able to do the ongoing maintenance necessary to keep an add-on viable.   This is not just in the NVDA Add-On world, either.  Very large numbers of the membership here has seen the death of Webvisum and (I believe, I'm not 100% certain about this one) Rumola.   Webvisum died under Firefox not because it didn't perform its function beautifully, but because the team behind it decided to walk away when Firefox Quantum made its debut (or at least somewhere around that time).   This happens, and not infrequently, if there's not someone who is willing to take up the torch combined with someone willing to pass that torch.  If either is missing . . .

'Tis the nature of software and the pace of change in the world of computing.  It's always been this way and, given the human factors at play, will probably always be this way.

There has been a great deal of concern expressed in the past about NVDA Remote Support (which is still an Add-On at this stage, but I seem to recall something about discussions about whether this should be something integrated into NVDA itself).   Regardless of how it came into being, those who created it are not obligated to maintain it perpetually.  They created a product at a set time that has worked for years afterward.  It's open-source so it could (maybe has, but that's not my point) be picked up by anyone willing and able to maintain or improve it, and that anyone may or may not be its original developers.   But the original developers met the entirety of their obligation upon release.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.

           ~ Edward Abbey

 

 


Devin Prater
 

I knew about the page, but I’ve never seen an Outlook add-on, neither there before nor discussed on list. This is great, and if it helps with the control+. (Period) in speaking the next message automatically that it lands on, then Outlook may become my email client of choice on Windows, if using it because even better than using Gmail.

On Apr 28, 2019, at 9:22 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 09:56 AM, Devin Prater wrote:
Wait, there's an addon for Outlook?
When I see things like this my jaw drops?   The official NVDA Add-Ons Page, whose address has been posted hundreds of times, is:  https://addons.nvda-project.org/index.en.html.

Each add-on is presented, by title, as a link on the page.   If you, any you, who've been an NVDA user and participant on any NVDA related list/forum for a long time have never bothered to go there and do a cruise-through of the links to see what's what you have no one to blame but yourselves.

I'm not about to give the actual link in this case, but the fact that there is an add-on named Outlook Extended answers that question.

[The above may not apply to Devin if that comment was in jest, but it certainly applies to any member who's been on this list for at least a month.  Go look, and if you need to activate an add-on title to get a further description of its function, well . . . ]
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.

           ~ Edward Abbey

 
 


Gene
 

First, as to the size of add-ons, my impression is that they are generally small and that you can incorporate many, perhaps a large number, without making the program larger enough to matter to any extent.  Those who work with add-ons technically will, I hope, discuss the matter.
 
I have a few add-ons in case I want to use or reinstall them at some point.  I just checked one.  It's only 5.90 KB for its download size.  Another is 2.76 KB as the download size.
 
Some may be much larger than others and the two I looked at may not be representative but large size can't be assumed to be a problem.
 
It isn't just a matter of size.  Even if the program is somewhat larger, the benefits to a lot of users who, I suspect, would never know about add-ons, might far outweigh the larger program size in terms of possible inconvenience.
 
Size may be of concern if you are going to add add-ons with no limit over time but I doubt we are near that point now.
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

Hi Vlad,


I agree with you on the ducting.  I don't use it a lot with NVDA because I use a computer and long before ducting, I used 2 separate sound cards and have total control.  However, I am using ducting on the iPhone and the way Apple has instituted it works great and is definitely an advantage.  For those who can't run 2 separate sound cards, it is truly a godsend.


As far as including a huge number of add-ons with NVDA, I  also disagree with this one.  One of the good things about NVDA is that it is under public license and is subject to a lot of different additions and variations. I would hate to see it become so bulky that is gets like JAWS which has so much bloteware and features that many people don't use that it is at times extremely redundant.  People in developing countries probably appreciate the slim and streamline aspects of NVDA.  If they need it only for word processing, why should they have to include a bunch of add-ons that would make the download so much larger and perhaps create a situation where there could be conflicts with their desired tasks.


...just my opinion.


On 4/28/2019 8:57 AM, Vlad Dragomir wrote:

Hello,

 

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

 

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

 

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

 

Cheers,

 

Vlad.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"