spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable


enes sarıbaş
 

hi,

I got spss to be slightly more accessible by enabling the java access bridge. However, nvda cannot read any of the controls. The log shows a windows access violation error. I find this to be absolutely unacceptable that nvda doesn't support such an important program. The same program works flawlessly with jaws.


Brennen Kinch
 

What is this program i have never hurd of it befor

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 16, 2016, at 5:51 AM, enes sarıbaş <enes.saribas@gmail.com> wrote:

hi,

I got spss to be slightly more accessible by enabling the java access bridge. However, nvda cannot read any of the controls. The log shows a windows access violation error. I find this to be absolutely unacceptable that nvda doesn't support such an important program. The same program works flawlessly with jaws.




erik burggraaf <erik@...>
 

Why is this inexcusible? SPSS is at least 20 years old, probably more. It has several iterations, including the ability to build custom web apps for using spss databases. It's a monstrously expensive proprietary institutional software made by people with very little demonstrated interest in including the blind community.
Only part of the support we enjoy in N vda is developer direct. Items like office and adobe support came to us sponsored by microsoft and adobe. Other features came from third party developers , or by funding from private individuals. The NVDA Remote add-on for example of one such project.

There's a reason why freedom scientific charged thousands of dollars. They carried the weight of the accessibility world on their shoulders, and despite what you may think, they were very unsteady on their feet most of the time. Still, as you say, they often got the job done.

Using NVDA allows you to take charge of your own accessibility in a manner that jaws never did. If you paid top dollar for jaws and found that it didn't meet a specific need, you filed a report and prayed support would come around in a year or two or three after you paid a little more. Meanwhile, maybe some one with your exact issue paid extravigant amounts of money to a script developer to make jaws do what you need it to do, but the development work belonged to the corporate entity who developed it, and they're not making any information about it available because they don't think they can make money from it, and they don't want other companies duplicating their work for nothing. Hooray for old paradigm corporate accessibility.

With NVDA, you can leverage the power of a huge and highly reputible open source community. In stead of making this all about your acceptence and your outrage, why not take charge of the issue? Network with other blind students and professionals who use SPSS. Network with federally funded institutions who use SPSS. Bring some private backing to java or whoever makes the thing and ask for corporate support to make SPSS compatible with nvda, either by upgrades to the software itself, enhanced NVDA support, or a combination of the two. If you approach people the right way, work hard, and make the right connections, you can make a project like this happen much faster in the NVDA system than you could waiting for freedom scientific to build and maintain what you need.

I'm sorry it didn't work out for you right away, but NVDA is your screen reader. You decide what it supports and what not. If there is anything we can do to help you get the support you need, I'm sure we will be appy to help, but you'd better begin by accepting the situation as is if you want to go forward.

Best,

Erik

Sent with AquaMail for Android
http://www.aqua-mail.com

On November 16, 2016 5:52:19 AM enes sarıbaş <enes.saribas@gmail.com> wrote:

hi,

I got spss to be slightly more accessible by enabling the java access
bridge. However, nvda cannot read any of the controls. The log shows a
windows access violation error. I find this to be absolutely
unacceptable that nvda doesn't support such an important program. The
same program works flawlessly with jaws.



mohammad suliman
 

Hi,
As far as I know, this program uses java apis to support accessibility, and nvda is better than Jaws when dealing with java. So, i think that the problem is with configuring java access bridge, not nvda.
I can send you some instructions to make sure that jab is well configured, if you still facing issues.
Best


On Wed, 16 Nov 2016 at 13:58 <brennenkinch@...> wrote:
What is this program i have never hurd of it befor

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 16, 2016, at 5:51 AM, enes sarıbaş <enes.saribas@...> wrote:
>
> hi,
>
> I got spss to be slightly more accessible by enabling the java access bridge. However, nvda cannot read any of the controls. The log shows a windows access violation error. I find this to be absolutely unacceptable that nvda doesn't support such an important program.  The same program works flawlessly with jaws.
>
>
>
>




Jacques <lists4js@...>
 

I usually don't like sending "I agree" messages to a mailing list, but this one will have to be an exception. I fully agree with Erik, it's a pity that some people's talents are limited to complaining.

If the commercial screen readers were so great, those thinking so should stick to it and leave the NVDA devs and contributors to make a great product even greater.

I've been around the block a few times, since the old Window Bridge days, and everything and anything in between, always seeking better ways to get the job done. NVDA is the screen reader I exclusively use now. Folks should read the user guide and explore the wonder of the object navigator. It has often enough got me out of a sticky situation, yes, also where the commercial products failed.

Off my soap box.

A good day to all.


Jacques

On Wednesday, 16 November 2016 15:25, Erik burggraaf wrote:
Why is this inexcusible? SPSS is at least 20 years old, probably more.
It has several iterations, including the ability to build custom web
apps for using spss databases. It's a monstrously expensive proprietary
institutional software made by people with very little demonstrated
interest in including the blind community.
Only part of the support we enjoy in N vda is developer direct. Items
like office and adobe support came to us sponsored by microsoft and
adobe. Other features came from third party developers , or by funding
from private individuals. The NVDA Remote add-on for example of one
such project.

There's a reason why freedom scientific charged thousands of dollars.
They carried the weight of the accessibility world on their shoulders,
and despite what you may think, they were very unsteady on their feet
most of the time. Still, as you say, they often got the job done.

Using NVDA allows you to take charge of your own accessibility in a
manner that jaws never did. If you paid top dollar for jaws and found
that it didn't meet a specific need, you filed a report and prayed
support would come around in a year or two or three after you paid a
little more. Meanwhile, maybe some one with your exact issue paid
extravigant amounts of money to a script developer to make jaws do what
you need it to do, but the development work belonged to the corporate
entity who developed it, and they're not making any information about it
available because they don't think they can make money from it, and they
don't want other companies duplicating their work for nothing. Hooray
for old paradigm corporate accessibility.

With NVDA, you can leverage the power of a huge and highly reputible
open source community. In stead of making this all about your
acceptence and your outrage, why not take charge of the issue? Network
with other blind students and professionals who use SPSS. Network with
federally funded institutions who use SPSS. Bring some private backing
to java or whoever makes the thing and ask for corporate support to make
SPSS compatible with nvda, either by upgrades to the software itself,
enhanced NVDA support, or a combination of the two. If you approach
people the right way, work hard, and make the right connections, you can
make a project like this happen much faster in the NVDA system than you
could waiting for freedom scientific to build and maintain what you need.

I'm sorry it didn't work out for you right away, but NVDA is your screen
reader. You decide what it supports and what not. If there is anything
we can do to help you get the support you need, I'm sure we will be appy
to help, but you'd better begin by accepting the situation as is if you
want to go forward.

Best,

Erik

Sent with AquaMail for Android
http://www.aqua-mail.com


On November 16, 2016 5:52:19 AM enes sarıbaş <enes.saribas@gmail.com>
wrote:

hi,

I got spss to be slightly more accessible by enabling the java access
bridge. However, nvda cannot read any of the controls. The log shows a
windows access violation error. I find this to be absolutely
unacceptable that nvda doesn't support such an important program. The
same program works flawlessly with jaws.







mohammad suliman
 

This link explains how to configure android studio accessibility, which is a java program. The "activate support for screen readers" section can help you also:

On Wed, 16 Nov 2016 at 15:44 Jacques <lists4js@...> wrote:
I usually don't like sending "I agree" messages to a mailing list, but
this one will have to be an exception. I fully agree with Erik, it's a
pity that some people's talents are limited to complaining.

If the commercial screen readers were so great, those thinking so should
stick to it and leave the NVDA devs and contributors to make a great
product even greater.

I've been around the block a few times, since the old Window Bridge
days, and everything and anything in between, always seeking better ways
to get the job done. NVDA is the screen reader I exclusively use now.
Folks should read the user guide and explore the wonder of the object
navigator. It has often enough got me out of a sticky situation, yes,
also where the commercial products failed.

Off my soap box.

A good day to all.


Jacques

On Wednesday, 16 November 2016 15:25, Erik burggraaf wrote:
> Why is this inexcusible?  SPSS is at least 20 years old, probably more.
> It has several iterations, including the ability to build custom web
> apps for using spss databases.  It's a monstrously expensive proprietary
> institutional software made by people with very little  demonstrated
> interest in including the blind community.
> Only part of the support we enjoy in N vda is developer direct.  Items
> like office and adobe support came to us sponsored by microsoft and
> adobe.  Other features came from third party developers , or by funding
> from private individuals.  The NVDA Remote add-on for example of one
> such project.
>
> There's a reason why freedom scientific charged thousands of dollars.
> They carried the weight of the accessibility world on their shoulders,
> and despite what you may think, they were very unsteady on their feet
> most of the time.  Still, as you say, they often got the job done.
>
> Using NVDA allows you to take charge of your own accessibility in a
> manner that jaws never did.  If you paid top dollar for jaws and found
> that it didn't meet a specific need, you filed a report and prayed
> support would come around in a year or two or three after you paid a
> little more.  Meanwhile, maybe some one with your exact issue paid
> extravigant amounts of money to a script developer to make jaws do what
> you need it to do, but the development work belonged to the corporate
> entity who developed it, and they're not making any information about it
> available because they don't think they can make money from it, and they
> don't want other companies duplicating their work for nothing.  Hooray
> for old paradigm corporate accessibility.
>
> With NVDA, you can leverage the power of a huge and highly reputible
> open source community.  In stead of making this all about your
> acceptence and your outrage, why not take charge of the issue?  Network
> with other blind students and professionals who use SPSS.  Network with
> federally funded institutions who use SPSS.  Bring some private backing
> to java or whoever makes the thing and ask for corporate support to make
> SPSS compatible with nvda, either by upgrades to the software itself,
> enhanced NVDA support, or a combination of the two.  If you approach
> people the right way, work hard, and make the right connections, you can
> make a project like this happen much faster in the NVDA system than you
> could waiting for freedom scientific to build and maintain what you need.
>
> I'm sorry it didn't work out for you right away, but NVDA is your screen
> reader.  You decide what it supports and what not.  If there is anything
> we can do to help you get the support you need, I'm sure we will be appy
> to help, but you'd better begin by accepting the situation as is if you
> want to go forward.
>
> Best,
>
> Erik
>
> Sent with AquaMail for Android
> http://www.aqua-mail.com
>
>
> On November 16, 2016 5:52:19 AM enes sarıbaş <enes.saribas@...>
> wrote:
>
>> hi,
>>
>> I got spss to be slightly more accessible by enabling the java access
>> bridge. However, nvda cannot read any of the controls. The log shows a
>> windows access violation error. I find this to be absolutely
>> unacceptable that nvda doesn't support such an important program.  The
>> same program works flawlessly with jaws.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>




 

SPSS (if it's the same SPSS I know of, and it probably is), was originally called the Statistical Package for the Social Sciences, is ancient, and has long since come into common use for number crunching in many disciplines.  That being said, SPSS was developed long before accessibility was on virtually anyone's radar.

I was, for a very long time, under the grossly mistaken impression that screen readers had been developed such that they could make a decent attempt to read virtually anything that might pop up on a screen.  I was recently disabused of that notion when working with a client who was expected to be able to use Interaction Desktop by Interaction Intelligence and a number of custom screen-based, but not web-based, programs developed for the client company.  It became abundantly clear instantly that JAWS (in this case, but it could have been any screen reader, this isn't JAWS bashing) was utterly incapable of interpreting the first thing that was on the screen because the underlying scripting for these applications did not exist.  We take for granted the way screen readers do function with common office suites and web browsers because an untold number of hours have been dedicated to creating the scripting that ships with them to handle these programs.  There is no way that any company can develop scripts "for everything" so the focus will logically be on the things that can benefit the most people in the most settings.   SPSS is absolutely a niche market, writ large.  In the context of the population at large, blind or not, very, very few people will ever touch SPSS.  That would not be a logical place to dedicate a lot of resources to as a result.

The above being said, after my experience with the client I made reference to, I was able to determine that there are several sites that had blind individuals using the software in question and that a significant scripting base was in place already and I believe it was actually done by Freedom Scientific.  What I do not understand is why companies like Freedom Scientific, when they're doing this work, do not have some contractual language in place that allows them to add said scripts to a central repository that they would maintain.   It is insane to keep reinventing the wheel, and that's exactly what happens when it comes to relatively little used commercial software when scripts have to be created, again and again, for each blind user at each site.  I was shocked that Freedom Scientific could not tell me whether any scripts existed or whether JAWS was known to have been used over Interaction Desktop.  Screen readers themselves are niche markets in the grand scheme of things and they would be boosting their respective reputations and really serving an important function of increasing accessibility for niche products if they set themselves up as centralized script repositories, with the proviso that they are not actively maintaining said scripts, just so a baseline would exist to work with when needed.

You can't convince me that SPSS hasn't been scripted, probably hundreds of times now, but where, for what screen reader or screen readers, who knows?
--
Brian

Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.  If you’re alive, it isn’t.

    ~ Lauren Bacall

    



Travis Siegel <tsiegel@...>
 

This is something folks generally don't realize.  Jaws is nothing but a glorified scripting engine.  If you deleted all the scripts from jaws, there would be next to nothing it could do all by itself.  This is an approach I never liked, and I never understood why screen readers didn't make more of an effort to just read what's on the screen, regardless of what/where it was.  NVDA works hard to accomplish this, and this was also the approach of windowbridge (hey, I didn't bring it up), It's always boggled my mind how little the commercial screen readers (with the exception of windowbridge) could do on their own.  I'm strongly of the opinion that script based screen readers are useless, because if there is no script, the program can't do anything.  If it mad an attempt to see what was on the screen, at least then you have a fighting chance to find what you need on the screen, even if it doesn't know what it is.  I never understood the whole scripting approach myself, but some folks seem to like it, so I guess if it works for them, then more power to them, but it certainly isn't my choice, I'd much prefer to have a screen reader that at least makes an attempt to see what's on the screen, instead of saying, oh well, no script, can't help you.



On 11/16/2016 11:11 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

SPSS (if it's the same SPSS I know of, and it probably is), was originally called the Statistical Package for the Social Sciences, is ancient, and has long since come into common use for number crunching in many disciplines.  That being said, SPSS was developed long before accessibility was on virtually anyone's radar.

I was, for a very long time, under the grossly mistaken impression that screen readers had been developed such that they could make a decent attempt to read virtually anything that might pop up on a screen.  I was recently disabused of that notion when working with a client who was expected to be able to use Interaction Desktop by Interaction Intelligence and a number of custom screen-based, but not web-based, programs developed for the client company.  It became abundantly clear instantly that JAWS (in this case, but it could have been any screen reader, this isn't JAWS bashing) was utterly incapable of interpreting the first thing that was on the screen because the underlying scripting for these applications did not exist.  We take for granted the way screen readers do function with common office suites and web browsers because an untold number of hours have been dedicated to creating the scripting that ships with them to handle these programs.  There is no way that any company can develop scripts "for everything" so the focus will logically be on the things that can benefit the most people in the most settings.   SPSS is absolutely a niche market, writ large.  In the context of the population at large, blind or not, very, very few people will ever touch SPSS.  That would not be a logical place to dedicate a lot of resources to as a result.

The above being said, after my experience with the client I made reference to, I was able to determine that there are several sites that had blind individuals using the software in question and that a significant scripting base was in place already and I believe it was actually done by Freedom Scientific.  What I do not understand is why companies like Freedom Scientific, when they're doing this work, do not have some contractual language in place that allows them to add said scripts to a central repository that they would maintain.   It is insane to keep reinventing the wheel, and that's exactly what happens when it comes to relatively little used commercial software when scripts have to be created, again and again, for each blind user at each site.  I was shocked that Freedom Scientific could not tell me whether any scripts existed or whether JAWS was known to have been used over Interaction Desktop.  Screen readers themselves are niche markets in the grand scheme of things and they would be boosting their respective reputations and really serving an important function of increasing accessibility for niche products if they set themselves up as centralized script repositories, with the proviso that they are not actively maintaining said scripts, just so a baseline would exist to work with when needed.

You can't convince me that SPSS hasn't been scripted, probably hundreds of times now, but where, for what screen reader or screen readers, who knows?
--
Brian

Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.  If you’re alive, it isn’t.

    ~ Lauren Bacall

    






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enes sarıbaş
 

hi,

a program used for statistics in the social sciences.

On 11/16/2016 2:58 PM, brennenkinch@gmail.com wrote:
What is this program i have never hurd of it befor

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 16, 2016, at 5:51 AM, enes sarıbaş <enes.saribas@gmail.com> wrote:

hi,

I got spss to be slightly more accessible by enabling the java access bridge. However, nvda cannot read any of the controls. The log shows a windows access violation error. I find this to be absolutely unacceptable that nvda doesn't support such an important program. The same program works flawlessly with jaws.




enes sarıbaş
 

hi,

though 20 years old, it is updated regularly. Also, jaws works perfectly I mean perfectly! with it. I would asume the jaws mode would help nvda access spss better? In the install, it asks if you want to enable jaws mode.

On 11/16/2016 4:25 PM, erik burggraaf wrote:
Why is this inexcusible? SPSS is at least 20 years old, probably more. It has several iterations, including the ability to build custom web apps for using spss databases. It's a monstrously expensive proprietary institutional software made by people with very little demonstrated interest in including the blind community.
Only part of the support we enjoy in N vda is developer direct. Items like office and adobe support came to us sponsored by microsoft and adobe. Other features came from third party developers , or by funding from private individuals. The NVDA Remote add-on for example of one such project.

There's a reason why freedom scientific charged thousands of dollars. They carried the weight of the accessibility world on their shoulders, and despite what you may think, they were very unsteady on their feet most of the time. Still, as you say, they often got the job done.

Using NVDA allows you to take charge of your own accessibility in a manner that jaws never did. If you paid top dollar for jaws and found that it didn't meet a specific need, you filed a report and prayed support would come around in a year or two or three after you paid a little more. Meanwhile, maybe some one with your exact issue paid extravigant amounts of money to a script developer to make jaws do what you need it to do, but the development work belonged to the corporate entity who developed it, and they're not making any information about it available because they don't think they can make money from it, and they don't want other companies duplicating their work for nothing. Hooray for old paradigm corporate accessibility.

With NVDA, you can leverage the power of a huge and highly reputible open source community. In stead of making this all about your acceptence and your outrage, why not take charge of the issue? Network with other blind students and professionals who use SPSS. Network with federally funded institutions who use SPSS. Bring some private backing to java or whoever makes the thing and ask for corporate support to make SPSS compatible with nvda, either by upgrades to the software itself, enhanced NVDA support, or a combination of the two. If you approach people the right way, work hard, and make the right connections, you can make a project like this happen much faster in the NVDA system than you could waiting for freedom scientific to build and maintain what you need.

I'm sorry it didn't work out for you right away, but NVDA is your screen reader. You decide what it supports and what not. If there is anything we can do to help you get the support you need, I'm sure we will be appy to help, but you'd better begin by accepting the situation as is if you want to go forward.

Best,

Erik

Sent with AquaMail for Android
http://www.aqua-mail.com


On November 16, 2016 5:52:19 AM enes sarıbaş <enes.saribas@gmail.com> wrote:

hi,

I got spss to be slightly more accessible by enabling the java access
bridge. However, nvda cannot read any of the controls. The log shows a
windows access violation error. I find this to be absolutely
unacceptable that nvda doesn't support such an important program. The
same program works flawlessly with jaws.






enes sarıbaş
 

hi,

All my complaints on this matter are 100% justified. And also, I am not a nvda novice. I tried object nav and nvda cannot access any elements in the spss window. Every movement made in the spss window generates an error tone for each element encountered.

On 11/16/2016 4:44 PM, Jacques wrote:
I usually don't like sending "I agree" messages to a mailing list, but this one will have to be an exception. I fully agree with Erik, it's a pity that some people's talents are limited to complaining.

If the commercial screen readers were so great, those thinking so should stick to it and leave the NVDA devs and contributors to make a great product even greater.

I've been around the block a few times, since the old Window Bridge days, and everything and anything in between, always seeking better ways to get the job done. NVDA is the screen reader I exclusively use now. Folks should read the user guide and explore the wonder of the object navigator. It has often enough got me out of a sticky situation, yes, also where the commercial products failed.

Off my soap box.

A good day to all.


Jacques

On Wednesday, 16 November 2016 15:25, Erik burggraaf wrote:
Why is this inexcusible? SPSS is at least 20 years old, probably more.
It has several iterations, including the ability to build custom web
apps for using spss databases. It's a monstrously expensive proprietary
institutional software made by people with very little demonstrated
interest in including the blind community.
Only part of the support we enjoy in N vda is developer direct. Items
like office and adobe support came to us sponsored by microsoft and
adobe. Other features came from third party developers , or by funding
from private individuals. The NVDA Remote add-on for example of one
such project.

There's a reason why freedom scientific charged thousands of dollars.
They carried the weight of the accessibility world on their shoulders,
and despite what you may think, they were very unsteady on their feet
most of the time. Still, as you say, they often got the job done.

Using NVDA allows you to take charge of your own accessibility in a
manner that jaws never did. If you paid top dollar for jaws and found
that it didn't meet a specific need, you filed a report and prayed
support would come around in a year or two or three after you paid a
little more. Meanwhile, maybe some one with your exact issue paid
extravigant amounts of money to a script developer to make jaws do what
you need it to do, but the development work belonged to the corporate
entity who developed it, and they're not making any information about it
available because they don't think they can make money from it, and they
don't want other companies duplicating their work for nothing. Hooray
for old paradigm corporate accessibility.

With NVDA, you can leverage the power of a huge and highly reputible
open source community. In stead of making this all about your
acceptence and your outrage, why not take charge of the issue? Network
with other blind students and professionals who use SPSS. Network with
federally funded institutions who use SPSS. Bring some private backing
to java or whoever makes the thing and ask for corporate support to make
SPSS compatible with nvda, either by upgrades to the software itself,
enhanced NVDA support, or a combination of the two. If you approach
people the right way, work hard, and make the right connections, you can
make a project like this happen much faster in the NVDA system than you
could waiting for freedom scientific to build and maintain what you need.

I'm sorry it didn't work out for you right away, but NVDA is your screen
reader. You decide what it supports and what not. If there is anything
we can do to help you get the support you need, I'm sure we will be appy
to help, but you'd better begin by accepting the situation as is if you
want to go forward.

Best,

Erik

Sent with AquaMail for Android
http://www.aqua-mail.com


On November 16, 2016 5:52:19 AM enes sarıbaş <enes.saribas@gmail.com>
wrote:

hi,

I got spss to be slightly more accessible by enabling the java access
bridge. However, nvda cannot read any of the controls. The log shows a
windows access violation error. I find this to be absolutely
unacceptable that nvda doesn't support such an important program. The
same program works flawlessly with jaws.








Rui Fontes
 

Yes, SPSS is accessible with Jaws, but I think only with Jaws...

I don't know if they use a JFW API or not...

Rui


-----Mensagem Original-----
De: enes sarıbaş
Data: 16 de novembro de 2016 18:06
Para: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Assunto: Re: [nvda] spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable

hi,

though 20 years old, it is updated regularly. Also, jaws works
perfectly I mean perfectly! with it. I would asume the jaws mode would
help nvda access spss better? In the install, it asks if you want to
enable jaws mode.

On 11/16/2016 4:25 PM, erik burggraaf wrote:
Why is this inexcusible? SPSS is at least 20 years old, probably more. It has several iterations, including the ability to build custom web apps for using spss databases. It's a monstrously expensive proprietary institutional software made by people with very little demonstrated interest in including the blind community.
Only part of the support we enjoy in N vda is developer direct. Items like office and adobe support came to us sponsored by microsoft and adobe. Other features came from third party developers , or by funding from private individuals. The NVDA Remote add-on for example of one such project.

There's a reason why freedom scientific charged thousands of dollars. They carried the weight of the accessibility world on their shoulders, and despite what you may think, they were very unsteady on their feet most of the time. Still, as you say, they often got the job done.

Using NVDA allows you to take charge of your own accessibility in a manner that jaws never did. If you paid top dollar for jaws and found that it didn't meet a specific need, you filed a report and prayed support would come around in a year or two or three after you paid a little more. Meanwhile, maybe some one with your exact issue paid extravigant amounts of money to a script developer to make jaws do what you need it to do, but the development work belonged to the corporate entity who developed it, and they're not making any information about it available because they don't think they can make money from it, and they don't want other companies duplicating their work for nothing. Hooray for old paradigm corporate accessibility.

With NVDA, you can leverage the power of a huge and highly reputible open source community. In stead of making this all about your acceptence and your outrage, why not take charge of the issue? Network with other blind students and professionals who use SPSS. Network with federally funded institutions who use SPSS. Bring some private backing to java or whoever makes the thing and ask for corporate support to make SPSS compatible with nvda, either by upgrades to the software itself, enhanced NVDA support, or a combination of the two. If you approach people the right way, work hard, and make the right connections, you can make a project like this happen much faster in the NVDA system than you could waiting for freedom scientific to build and maintain what you need.

I'm sorry it didn't work out for you right away, but NVDA is your screen reader. You decide what it supports and what not. If there is anything we can do to help you get the support you need, I'm sure we will be appy to help, but you'd better begin by accepting the situation as is if you want to go forward.

Best,

Erik

Sent with AquaMail for Android
http://www.aqua-mail.com


On November 16, 2016 5:52:19 AM enes sarıbaş <enes.saribas@gmail.com> wrote:

hi,

I got spss to be slightly more accessible by enabling the java access
bridge. However, nvda cannot read any of the controls. The log shows a
windows access violation error. I find this to be absolutely
unacceptable that nvda doesn't support such an important program. The
same program works flawlessly with jaws.







 

On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:06 am, enes sarıbaş wrote:
though 20 years old, it is updated regularly. Also, jaws works perfectly I mean perfectly! with it. I would asume the jaws mode would help nvda access spss better? In the install, it asks if you want to enable jaws mode.

 It's more than 20 years old, since I was using it when I was in undergraduate school in the early 1980s.

I would certainly try enabling JAWS mode if it's not enabled since screen readers in general latch on to a lot of the same mechanisms that lie "under the hood."

But, back to my original point:   Very few people, period, as part of the population use SPSS, period.  Blind or visually impaired individuals who are also SPSS users are a tiny minority of a tiny minority.  Decisions about where accessibility resources are to be directed have to be made.  Apparently someone made the decision that SPSS should be scripted for JAWS at some point, and heaven knows why.  Were I a screen reader developer or scripter asking, "What should my next project be?," there is an almost zero probability that I'd target SPSS for entirely legitimate reasons.   This is a matter of the most benefit for the most people.  It's that simple.  And the following is not aimed at you, specifically, but is a general observation:  It's worth remembering that it's not all about you.
--
Brian

Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.  If you’re alive, it isn’t.

    ~ Lauren Bacall

    



Gene
 

NVDA uses plenty of scripts.  you just don't know it because the scripts are not exposed to the user in NVDA or discussed often.  Any modern screen-reader relies heavily on scripts. 
 
A screen-reader can't just read what is on screen.  How does it know what order to read material?  If a certain line of text needs to be read when it comes up, how is the screen-reader to know when to do so?  What if five or ten lines of text come up under certain conditions but the blind user needs to hear one specific line.  Without scripting, how is the screen-reader supposed to know what to read? 
 
There was a screen-reader years ago, ASAW, that largely relied on artificial intellligence and programming to read what is on the screen.  it worked reasonably well but there were programs in which it read nothing when it should have read something to read something.  Also, those were simpler times.  The program worked with Windows 3.1 and Windows 95.  I don't know if it could have been made to work nearly as well in today's more compplex environment.  And as I said, it had some problems, though I dohn't know if they could have been ironed out with further development. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable

This is something folks generally don't realize.  Jaws is nothing but a glorified scripting engine.  If you deleted all the scripts from jaws, there would be next to nothing it could do all by itself.  This is an approach I never liked, and I never understood why screen readers didn't make more of an effort to just read what's on the screen, regardless of what/where it was.  NVDA works hard to accomplish this, and this was also the approach of windowbridge (hey, I didn't bring it up), It's always boggled my mind how little the commercial screen readers (with the exception of windowbridge) could do on their own.  I'm strongly of the opinion that script based screen readers are useless, because if there is no script, the program can't do anything.  If it mad an attempt to see what was on the screen, at least then you have a fighting chance to find what you need on the screen, even if it doesn't know what it is.  I never understood the whole scripting approach myself, but some folks seem to like it, so I guess if it works for them, then more power to them, but it certainly isn't my choice, I'd much prefer to have a screen reader that at least makes an attempt to see what's on the screen, instead of saying, oh well, no script, can't help you.



On 11/16/2016 11:11 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

SPSS (if it's the same SPSS I know of, and it probably is), was originally called the Statistical Package for the Social Sciences, is ancient, and has long since come into common use for number crunching in many disciplines.  That being said, SPSS was developed long before accessibility was on virtually anyone's radar.

I was, for a very long time, under the grossly mistaken impression that screen readers had been developed such that they could make a decent attempt to read virtually anything that might pop up on a screen.  I was recently disabused of that notion when working with a client who was expected to be able to use Interaction Desktop by Interaction Intelligence and a number of custom screen-based, but not web-based, programs developed for the client company.  It became abundantly clear instantly that JAWS (in this case, but it could have been any screen reader, this isn't JAWS bashing) was utterly incapable of interpreting the first thing that was on the screen because the underlying scripting for these applications did not exist.  We take for granted the way screen readers do function with common office suites and web browsers because an untold number of hours have been dedicated to creating the scripting that ships with them to handle these programs.  There is no way that any company can develop scripts "for everything" so the focus will logically be on the things that can benefit the most people in the most settings.   SPSS is absolutely a niche market, writ large.  In the context of the population at large, blind or not, very, very few people will ever touch SPSS.  That would not be a logical place to dedicate a lot of resources to as a result.

The above being said, after my experience with the client I made reference to, I was able to determine that there are several sites that had blind individuals using the software in question and that a significant scripting base was in place already and I believe it was actually done by Freedom Scientific.  What I do not understand is why companies like Freedom Scientific, when they're doing this work, do not have some contractual language in place that allows them to add said scripts to a central repository that they would maintain.   It is insane to keep reinventing the wheel, and that's exactly what happens when it comes to relatively little used commercial software when scripts have to be created, again and again, for each blind user at each site.  I was shocked that Freedom Scientific could not tell me whether any scripts existed or whether JAWS was known to have been used over Interaction Desktop.  Screen readers themselves are niche markets in the grand scheme of things and they would be boosting their respective reputations and really serving an important function of increasing accessibility for niche products if they set themselves up as centralized script repositories, with the proviso that they are not actively maintaining said scripts, just so a baseline would exist to work with when needed.

You can't convince me that SPSS hasn't been scripted, probably hundreds of times now, but where, for what screen reader or screen readers, who knows?
--
Brian

Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.  If you’re alive, it isn’t.

    ~ Lauren Bacall

    






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Jacques <lists4js@...>
 

Hi Travis

Since I was the one to bring up the topic of Window Bridge, I'm curious as to which parts you remember and which parts you may choose to forget. Having said that, I have no knowledge about your computer skills and cannot possibly comment on it.

You appear to hint on the OSM model, an acronym for off screen model. Although it certainly had its place in some situations, it more often than not also caused absolute garbage to be fed to the user. One should be careful to wish for a screen reader to guess what's on the screen, as it may just lead you up the garden path.

Although some commercial products claim to have done away with this approach, it often is clear, based on the garbage they use for output, that this is not the case.

I guess this is getting a bit off topic in terms of NVDA, so I'll leave it at that.


Jacques

On Wednesday, 16 November 2016 19:49, Travis Siegel wrote:
This is something folks generally don't realize. Jaws is nothing but a
glorified scripting engine. If you deleted all the scripts from jaws,
there would be next to nothing it could do all by itself. This is an
approach I never liked, and I never understood why screen readers didn't
make more of an effort to just read what's on the screen, regardless of
what/where it was. NVDA works hard to accomplish this, and this was
also the approach of windowbridge (hey, I didn't bring it up), It's
always boggled my mind how little the commercial screen readers (with
the exception of windowbridge) could do on their own. I'm strongly of
the opinion that script based screen readers are useless, because if
there is no script, the program can't do anything. If it mad an attempt
to see what was on the screen, at least then you have a fighting chance
to find what you need on the screen, even if it doesn't know what it
is. I never understood the whole scripting approach myself, but some
folks seem to like it, so I guess if it works for them, then more power
to them, but it certainly isn't my choice, I'd much prefer to have a
screen reader that at least makes an attempt to see what's on the
screen, instead of saying, oh well, no script, can't help you.



On 11/16/2016 11:11 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

SPSS (if it's the same SPSS <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPSS> I
know of, and it probably is), was originally called the Statistical
Package for the Social Sciences, is ancient, and has long since come
into common use for number crunching in many disciplines. That being
said, SPSS was developed long before accessibility was on virtually
anyone's radar.

I was, for a very long time, under the grossly mistaken impression
that screen readers had been developed such that they could make a
decent attempt to read virtually anything that might pop up on a
screen. I was recently disabused of that notion when working with a
client who was expected to be able to use Interaction Desktop by
Interaction Intelligence and a number of custom screen-based, but not
web-based, programs developed for the client company. It became
abundantly clear instantly that JAWS (in this case, but it could have
been any screen reader, this isn't JAWS bashing) was utterly incapable
of interpreting the first thing that was on the screen because the
underlying scripting for these applications did not exist. We take
for granted the way screen readers do function with common office
suites and web browsers because an untold number of hours have been
dedicated to creating the scripting that ships with them to handle
these programs. There is no way that any company can develop scripts
"for everything" so the focus will logically be on the things that can
benefit the most people in the most settings. SPSS is absolutely a
niche market, writ large. In the context of the population at large,
blind or not, very, very few people will ever touch SPSS. That would
not be a logical place to dedicate a lot of resources to as a result.

The above being said, after my experience with the client I made
reference to, I was able to determine that there are several sites
that had blind individuals using the software in question and that a
significant scripting base was in place already and I believe it was
actually done by Freedom Scientific. What I do not understand is why
companies like Freedom Scientific, when they're doing this work, do
not have some contractual language in place that allows them to add
said scripts to a central repository that they would maintain. It is
insane to keep reinventing the wheel, and that's exactly what happens
when it comes to relatively little used commercial software when
scripts have to be created, again and again, for each blind user at
each site. I was shocked that Freedom Scientific could not tell me
whether any scripts existed or whether JAWS was known to have been
used over Interaction Desktop. Screen readers themselves are niche
markets in the grand scheme of things and they would be boosting their
respective reputations and really serving an important function of
increasing accessibility for niche products if they set themselves up
as centralized script repositories, with the proviso that they are not
actively maintaining said scripts, just so a baseline would exist to
work with when needed.

You can't convince me that SPSS hasn't been scripted, probably
hundreds of times now, but where, for what screen reader or screen
readers, who knows?
--
*/Brian/*

*/Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.
If you’re alive, it isn’t./*

/ /~ Lauren Bacall





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erik burggraaf <erik@...>
 

Hi Brian, I think Freedom Scientific is probably putting the rights of their scriptures and the intellectual property they generate over to 7:18 information directly to users about what is available and what is not. In the context of SPS s, this is a highly corporate package and the work that's been done on it by people in corporate settings is going to have to stay in those companies because the company's themselves are not going to want to let go of it.

Forcing authors of scripts 2278 their information by a contract would be great for users, but it would definitely scare away corporations research institutions and other big money providers. Freedom Scientific is going to go where the money is.

Sent with AquaMail for Android
http://www.aqua-mail.com

On November 16, 2016 11:12:51 AM "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...> wrote:

SPSS (if it's the same SPSS I know of, and it probably is), was originally called the Statistical Package for the Social Sciences, is ancient, and has long since come into common use for number crunching in many disciplines.  That being said, SPSS was developed long before accessibility was on virtually anyone's radar.

I was, for a very long time, under the grossly mistaken impression that screen readers had been developed such that they could make a decent attempt to read virtually anything that might pop up on a screen.  I was recently disabused of that notion when working with a client who was expected to be able to use Interaction Desktop by Interaction Intelligence and a number of custom screen-based, but not web-based, programs developed for the client company.  It became abundantly clear instantly that JAWS (in this case, but it could have been any screen reader, this isn't JAWS bashing) was utterly incapable of interpreting the first thing that was on the screen because the underlying scripting for these applications did not exist.  We take for granted the way screen readers do function with common office suites and web browsers because an untold number of hours have been dedicated to creating the scripting that ships with them to handle these programs.  There is no way that any company can develop scripts "for everything" so the focus will logically be on the things that can benefit the most people in the most settings.   SPSS is absolutely a niche market, writ large.  In the context of the population at large, blind or not, very, very few people will ever touch SPSS.  That would not be a logical place to dedicate a lot of resources to as a result.

The above being said, after my experience with the client I made reference to, I was able to determine that there are several sites that had blind individuals using the software in question and that a significant scripting base was in place already and I believe it was actually done by Freedom Scientific.  What I do not understand is why companies like Freedom Scientific, when they're doing this work, do not have some contractual language in place that allows them to add said scripts to a central repository that they would maintain.   It is insane to keep reinventing the wheel, and that's exactly what happens when it comes to relatively little used commercial software when scripts have to be created, again and again, for each blind user at each site.  I was shocked that Freedom Scientific could not tell me whether any scripts existed or whether JAWS was known to have been used over Interaction Desktop.  Screen readers themselves are niche markets in the grand scheme of things and they would be boosting their respective reputations and really serving an important function of increasing accessibility for niche products if they set themselves up as centralized script repositories, with the proviso that they are not actively maintaining said scripts, just so a baseline would exist to work with when needed.

You can't convince me that SPSS hasn't been scripted, probably hundreds of times now, but where, for what screen reader or screen readers, who knows?
--
Brian

Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.  If you’re alive, it isn’t.

    ~ Lauren Bacall

    



 

Well technically nvda is a script based screen reader.
I mean its a python based one.
I just tried to clear every pyo, pid, picl pic and other python file from the thing.
It didn't even work, kill the library zip file, and then the python dlls and I get a couple nice errors.
This was on a portable version to.
Nvda is based around a scripting engine its not custom made, but it is based round a scripting engine.
Jaws yes I agree to many scripts just about everything else is going into scripts now.
What sets nvda appart I guess then is its built round windows itself using libraries allready there for the most part, uia msaa rich text, win32, other libraries within windows mostly.
There are hooks for displays and a few other things but there are no video intercepts at all.
Before nvda you needed those for graphics interception and we can thank microsoft for making it hard for us blinks on the nt based system.
Everything should be in that reguard using the same library but uia can be broken and well.
I don't think scripts are the problem its how they are used.
nvda is half script and half standard files, its why addons can be dangerous but also helpfull, its why we can run programs within nvda to run other programs.
In a way nvda is not a screen reader, more like one of those talking dos shells than anything else with the way things are.
The difference is you can make nvda scripts do almost everything.
From running ocr engines to looking for weather with just one click.
To maybe doing your shopping for you, to voice recognition and much more.
On the other side it shares the risks associated with the model.

It can be abused and misused.
A lot of readers are moving or trying to move to the lua script languages and java script though to bring things in line.
One thing while we are on the subject which concerns me is how chummy some of our tech reviewers are.
I know for example that cool blind tech is up and cosy with microsoft maintaining that narator is really good as a primary reader.
Narator has never been good as a primary reader, its why I am using nvda.
In 10 they are trying to make it better but I can't trust them anymore, why are we buying jaws, using nvda and other things when we could just use narator.
Narator was bad to start off with, its reputation as far as I care is ruined.
Its just the microsoft setup screen reader on a windows desktop now in mobile it aparently works for its apps.
But we want more than microsoft apps.

On 17/11/2016 6:49 a.m., Travis Siegel wrote:
This is something folks generally don't realize. Jaws is nothing but a
glorified scripting engine. If you deleted all the scripts from jaws,
there would be next to nothing it could do all by itself. This is an
approach I never liked, and I never understood why screen readers didn't
make more of an effort to just read what's on the screen, regardless of
what/where it was. NVDA works hard to accomplish this, and this was
also the approach of windowbridge (hey, I didn't bring it up), It's
always boggled my mind how little the commercial screen readers (with
the exception of windowbridge) could do on their own. I'm strongly of
the opinion that script based screen readers are useless, because if
there is no script, the program can't do anything. If it mad an attempt
to see what was on the screen, at least then you have a fighting chance
to find what you need on the screen, even if it doesn't know what it
is. I never understood the whole scripting approach myself, but some
folks seem to like it, so I guess if it works for them, then more power
to them, but it certainly isn't my choice, I'd much prefer to have a
screen reader that at least makes an attempt to see what's on the
screen, instead of saying, oh well, no script, can't help you.



On 11/16/2016 11:11 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

SPSS (if it's the same SPSS <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPSS> I
know of, and it probably is), was originally called the Statistical
Package for the Social Sciences, is ancient, and has long since come
into common use for number crunching in many disciplines. That being
said, SPSS was developed long before accessibility was on virtually
anyone's radar.

I was, for a very long time, under the grossly mistaken impression
that screen readers had been developed such that they could make a
decent attempt to read virtually anything that might pop up on a
screen. I was recently disabused of that notion when working with a
client who was expected to be able to use Interaction Desktop by
Interaction Intelligence and a number of custom screen-based, but not
web-based, programs developed for the client company. It became
abundantly clear instantly that JAWS (in this case, but it could have
been any screen reader, this isn't JAWS bashing) was utterly incapable
of interpreting the first thing that was on the screen because the
underlying scripting for these applications did not exist. We take
for granted the way screen readers do function with common office
suites and web browsers because an untold number of hours have been
dedicated to creating the scripting that ships with them to handle
these programs. There is no way that any company can develop scripts
"for everything" so the focus will logically be on the things that can
benefit the most people in the most settings. SPSS is absolutely a
niche market, writ large. In the context of the population at large,
blind or not, very, very few people will ever touch SPSS. That would
not be a logical place to dedicate a lot of resources to as a result.

The above being said, after my experience with the client I made
reference to, I was able to determine that there are several sites
that had blind individuals using the software in question and that a
significant scripting base was in place already and I believe it was
actually done by Freedom Scientific. What I do not understand is why
companies like Freedom Scientific, when they're doing this work, do
not have some contractual language in place that allows them to add
said scripts to a central repository that they would maintain. It is
insane to keep reinventing the wheel, and that's exactly what happens
when it comes to relatively little used commercial software when
scripts have to be created, again and again, for each blind user at
each site. I was shocked that Freedom Scientific could not tell me
whether any scripts existed or whether JAWS was known to have been
used over Interaction Desktop. Screen readers themselves are niche
markets in the grand scheme of things and they would be boosting their
respective reputations and really serving an important function of
increasing accessibility for niche products if they set themselves up
as centralized script repositories, with the proviso that they are not
actively maintaining said scripts, just so a baseline would exist to
work with when needed.

You can't convince me that SPSS hasn't been scripted, probably
hundreds of times now, but where, for what screen reader or screen
readers, who knows?
--
*/Brian/*

*/Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.
If you’re alive, it isn’t./*

//~ Lauren Bacall





 

I agree.
The majority of the compiled scripts for nvda for the core are compressed in a library zipfile.
In there if you care to look, there are clearly titled folders which have all the apps that need them pluss the core compiled files.
Nvda is one large script thats why its most successfull.
Maybe if all readers just used python they would be that good.
So if you want to be technical you are running python2.7 engine right now with the nvda project compiled under it under your flashy windows os.

On 17/11/2016 7:22 a.m., Gene wrote:
NVDA uses plenty of scripts. you just don't know it because the scripts are not exposed to the user in NVDA or discussed often. Any modern screen-reader relies heavily on scripts.

A screen-reader can't just read what is on screen. How does it know what order to read material? If a certain line of text needs to be read when it comes up, how is the screen-reader to know when to do so? What if five or ten lines of text come up under certain conditions but the blind user needs to hear one specific line. Without scripting, how is the screen-reader supposed to know what to read?

There was a screen-reader years ago, ASAW, that largely relied on artificial intellligence and programming to read what is on the screen. it worked reasonably well but there were programs in which it read nothing when it should have read something to read something. Also, those were simpler times. The program worked with Windows 3.1 and Windows 95. I don't know if it could have been made to work nearly as well in today's more compplex environment. And as I said, it had some problems, though I dohn't know if they could have been ironed out with further development.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Travis Siegel
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 11:49 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable


This is something folks generally don't realize. Jaws is nothing but a glorified scripting engine. If you deleted all the scripts from jaws, there would be next to nothing it could do all by itself. This is an approach I never liked, and I never understood why screen readers didn't make more of an effort to just read what's on the screen, regardless of what/where it was. NVDA works hard to accomplish this, and this was also the approach of windowbridge (hey, I didn't bring it up), It's always boggled my mind how little the commercial screen readers (with the exception of windowbridge) could do on their own. I'm strongly of the opinion that script based screen readers are useless, because if there is no script, the program can't do anything. If it mad an attempt to see what was on the screen, at least then you have a fighting chance to find what you need on the screen, even if it doesn't know what it is. I never understood the whole scripting approach myself, but some folks seem to like it, so I guess if it works for them, then more power to them, but it certainly isn't my choice, I'd much prefer to have a screen reader that at least makes an attempt to see what's on the screen, instead of saying, oh well, no script, can't help you.






On 11/16/2016 11:11 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

SPSS (if it's the same SPSS I know of, and it probably is), was originally called the Statistical Package for the Social Sciences, is ancient, and has long since come into common use for number crunching in many disciplines. That being said, SPSS was developed long before accessibility was on virtually anyone's radar.

I was, for a very long time, under the grossly mistaken impression that screen readers had been developed such that they could make a decent attempt to read virtually anything that might pop up on a screen. I was recently disabused of that notion when working with a client who was expected to be able to use Interaction Desktop by Interaction Intelligence and a number of custom screen-based, but not web-based, programs developed for the client company. It became abundantly clear instantly that JAWS (in this case, but it could have been any screen reader, this isn't JAWS bashing) was utterly incapable of interpreting the first thing that was on the screen because the underlying scripting for these applications did not exist. We take for granted the way screen readers do function with common office suites and web browsers because an untold number of hours have been dedicated to creating the scripting that ships with them to handle these programs. There is no way that any company can develop scripts "for everything" so the focus will logically be on the things that can benefit the most people in the most settings. SPSS is absolutely a niche market, writ large. In the context of the population at large, blind or not, very, very few people will ever touch SPSS. That would not be a logical place to dedicate a lot of resources to as a result.

The above being said, after my experience with the client I made reference to, I was able to determine that there are several sites that had blind individuals using the software in question and that a significant scripting base was in place already and I believe it was actually done by Freedom Scientific. What I do not understand is why companies like Freedom Scientific, when they're doing this work, do not have some contractual language in place that allows them to add said scripts to a central repository that they would maintain. It is insane to keep reinventing the wheel, and that's exactly what happens when it comes to relatively little used commercial software when scripts have to be created, again and again, for each blind user at each site. I was shocked that Freedom Scientific could not tell me whether any scripts existed or whether JAWS was known to have been used over Interaction Desktop. Screen readers themselves are niche markets in the grand scheme of things and they would be boosting their respective reputations and really serving an important function of increasing accessibility for niche products if they set themselves up as centralized script repositories, with the proviso that they are not actively maintaining said scripts, just so a baseline would exist to work with when needed.

You can't convince me that SPSS hasn't been scripted, probably hundreds of times now, but where, for what screen reader or screen readers, who knows?
--
Brian

Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re alive, it isn’t.

~ Lauren Bacall










--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com




 

Also it really is not good to force/sue if you don't need to do so.
True the big companies bash themselves with everything they can get their hands on but us people will find it hard to dammage those and they can wipe the floor with us dead easy.

On 17/11/2016 7:54 a.m., erik burggraaf wrote:
Hi Brian, I think Freedom Scientific is probably putting the rights of
their scriptures and the intellectual property they generate over to
7:18 information directly to users about what is available and what is
not. In the context of SPS s, this is a highly corporate package and the
work that's been done on it by people in corporate settings is going to
have to stay in those companies because the company's themselves are not
going to want to let go of it.

Forcing authors of scripts 2278 their information by a contract would be
great for users, but it would definitely scare away corporations
research institutions and other big money providers. Freedom Scientific
is going to go where the money is.

Sent with AquaMail for Android
http://www.aqua-mail.com


On November 16, 2016 11:12:51 AM "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@gmail.com>
wrote:

SPSS (if it's the same SPSS ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPSS ) I
know of, and it probably is), was originally called the Statistical
Package for the Social Sciences, is ancient, and has long since come
into common use for number crunching in many disciplines. That being
said, SPSS was developed long before accessibility was on virtually
anyone's radar.

I was, for a very long time, under the grossly mistaken impression
that screen readers had been developed such that they could make a
decent attempt to read virtually anything that might pop up on a
screen. I was recently disabused of that notion when working with a
client who was expected to be able to use Interaction Desktop by
Interaction Intelligence and a number of custom screen-based, but not
web-based, programs developed for the client company. It became
abundantly clear instantly that JAWS (in this case, but it could have
been any screen reader, this isn't JAWS bashing) was utterly incapable
of interpreting the first thing that was on the screen because the
underlying scripting for these applications did not exist. We take
for granted the way screen readers do function with common office
suites and web browsers because an untold number of hours have been
dedicated to creating the scripting that ships with them to handle
these programs. There is no way that any company can develop scripts
"for everything" so the focus will logically be on the things that can
benefit the most people in the most settings. SPSS is absolutely a
niche market, writ large. In the context of the population at large,
blind or not, very, very few people will ever touch SPSS. That would
not be a logical place to dedicate a lot of resources to as a result.

The above being said, after my experience with the client I made
reference to, I was able to determine that there are several sites
that had blind individuals using the software in question and that a
significant scripting base was in place already and I believe it was
actually done by Freedom Scientific. What I do not understand is why
companies like Freedom Scientific, when they're doing this work, do
not have some contractual language in place that allows them to add
said scripts to a central repository that they would maintain. It is
insane to keep reinventing the wheel, and that's exactly what happens
when it comes to relatively little used commercial software when
scripts have to be created, again and again, for each blind user at
each site. I was shocked that Freedom Scientific could not tell me
whether any scripts existed or whether JAWS was known to have been
used over Interaction Desktop. Screen readers themselves are niche
markets in the grand scheme of things and they would be boosting their
respective reputations and really serving an important function of
increasing accessibility for niche products if they set themselves up
as centralized script repositories, with the proviso that they are not
actively maintaining said scripts, just so a baseline would exist to
work with when needed.

You can't convince me that SPSS hasn't been scripted, probably
hundreds of times now, but where, for what screen reader or screen
readers, who knows?
--
*Brian*

*Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.
If you’re alive, it isn’t.*

~ Lauren Bacall


Travis Siegel <tsiegel@...>
 

I know narrator bites as a general purpose screen reader, but that's not microsoft's fault. MS tried to build a general purpose screen reader (just like Apple did), but when they tried, organizations like the NFB jumped all over them screaming about how bad it would be for the screen reader market if MS had their own screen reader, and how many blind people it would put out of work, how ms would be able to do things with their screen reader third-party screen readers couldn't, and so on and so on. As a result, MS had to scale back the functionality of narrator turning it into what it has become. So, in this particular case, you can't blame MS for the state of narrator, they actually tried, and were blocked by special interest groups. Admittedly, I'm no fan of Microsoft, and defending them is the last thing I would want to do, but in this particular for instance, it truly isn't their fault.

On 11/16/2016 3:10 PM, Shaun Everiss wrote:
One thing while we are on the subject which concerns me is how chummy some of our tech reviewers are.
I know for example that cool blind tech is up and cosy with microsoft maintaining that narator is really good as a primary reader.
Narator has never been good as a primary reader, its why I am using nvda.
In 10 they are trying to make it better but I can't trust them anymore, why are we buying jaws, using nvda and other things when we could just use narator.
Narator was bad to start off with, its reputation as far as I care is ruined.
Its just the microsoft setup screen reader on a windows desktop now in mobile it aparently works for its apps.
But we want more than microsoft apps.



On 17/11/2016 6:49 a.m., Travis Siegel wrote:
This is something folks generally don't realize. Jaws is nothing but a
glorified scripting engine. If you deleted all the scripts from jaws,
there would be next to nothing it could do all by itself. This is an
approach I never liked, and I never understood why screen readers didn't
make more of an effort to just read what's on the screen, regardless of
what/where it was. NVDA works hard to accomplish this, and this was
also the approach of windowbridge (hey, I didn't bring it up), It's
always boggled my mind how little the commercial screen readers (with
the exception of windowbridge) could do on their own. I'm strongly of
the opinion that script based screen readers are useless, because if
there is no script, the program can't do anything. If it mad an attempt
to see what was on the screen, at least then you have a fighting chance
to find what you need on the screen, even if it doesn't know what it
is. I never understood the whole scripting approach myself, but some
folks seem to like it, so I guess if it works for them, then more power
to them, but it certainly isn't my choice, I'd much prefer to have a
screen reader that at least makes an attempt to see what's on the
screen, instead of saying, oh well, no script, can't help you.



On 11/16/2016 11:11 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

SPSS (if it's the same SPSS <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPSS> I
know of, and it probably is), was originally called the Statistical
Package for the Social Sciences, is ancient, and has long since come
into common use for number crunching in many disciplines. That being
said, SPSS was developed long before accessibility was on virtually
anyone's radar.

I was, for a very long time, under the grossly mistaken impression
that screen readers had been developed such that they could make a
decent attempt to read virtually anything that might pop up on a
screen. I was recently disabused of that notion when working with a
client who was expected to be able to use Interaction Desktop by
Interaction Intelligence and a number of custom screen-based, but not
web-based, programs developed for the client company. It became
abundantly clear instantly that JAWS (in this case, but it could have
been any screen reader, this isn't JAWS bashing) was utterly incapable
of interpreting the first thing that was on the screen because the
underlying scripting for these applications did not exist. We take
for granted the way screen readers do function with common office
suites and web browsers because an untold number of hours have been
dedicated to creating the scripting that ships with them to handle
these programs. There is no way that any company can develop scripts
"for everything" so the focus will logically be on the things that can
benefit the most people in the most settings. SPSS is absolutely a
niche market, writ large. In the context of the population at large,
blind or not, very, very few people will ever touch SPSS. That would
not be a logical place to dedicate a lot of resources to as a result.

The above being said, after my experience with the client I made
reference to, I was able to determine that there are several sites
that had blind individuals using the software in question and that a
significant scripting base was in place already and I believe it was
actually done by Freedom Scientific. What I do not understand is why
companies like Freedom Scientific, when they're doing this work, do
not have some contractual language in place that allows them to add
said scripts to a central repository that they would maintain. It is
insane to keep reinventing the wheel, and that's exactly what happens
when it comes to relatively little used commercial software when
scripts have to be created, again and again, for each blind user at
each site. I was shocked that Freedom Scientific could not tell me
whether any scripts existed or whether JAWS was known to have been
used over Interaction Desktop. Screen readers themselves are niche
markets in the grand scheme of things and they would be boosting their
respective reputations and really serving an important function of
increasing accessibility for niche products if they set themselves up
as centralized script repositories, with the proviso that they are not
actively maintaining said scripts, just so a baseline would exist to
work with when needed.

You can't convince me that SPSS hasn't been scripted, probably
hundreds of times now, but where, for what screen reader or screen
readers, who knows?
--
*/Brian/*

*/Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.
If you’re alive, it isn’t./*

//~ Lauren Bacall