making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)
|
Travis Siegel
Actually, this thread brings up something I've been wondering about myself. I have a program I use that isn't all that accessible with NVDA. I don't know the first thing about how to make a program accessible with NVDA. How would one go about working to make a program accessible. It largely seems to be a matter of making NVDA see various icons on the screen, and labeling those icons. The demo of jaws sees the icons (NVDA does not), though even jaws doesn't know what those icons are, so with this information in hand, how would one go about making NVDA see these icons, and provide labels to them so they can be properly identified?
I have no problem doing the work myself, I just don't know how/what to do. There isn't anything in the NVDA manual discussing this topic, and there probably should be. |
||||
|
|
||||
|
Peter Beasley
It would be nice to have a graphic dictionary like Windoweyes does.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Travis Siegel Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 5:39 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable) Actually, this thread brings up something I've been wondering about myself. I have a program I use that isn't all that accessible with NVDA. I don't know the first thing about how to make a program accessible with NVDA. How would one go about working to make a program accessible. It largely seems to be a matter of making NVDA see various icons on the screen, and labeling those icons. The demo of jaws sees the icons (NVDA does not), though even jaws doesn't know what those icons are, so with this information in hand, how would one go about making NVDA see these icons, and provide labels to them so they can be properly identified? I have no problem doing the work myself, I just don't know how/what to do. There isn't anything in the NVDA manual discussing this topic, and there probably should be. |
||||
|
|
||||
|
Gene
NVDA doesn't have a label icons feature. I
suppose if you knew how to write scripts for NVDA, you could do it but there is
no user feature.
Gene ----- Original Message -----
From: Travis Siegel
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 11:39 AM
Subject: [nvda] making a program accessible (was spss
inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable) myself. I have a program I use that isn't all that accessible with NVDA. I don't know the first thing about how to make a program accessible with NVDA. How would one go about working to make a program accessible. It largely seems to be a matter of making NVDA see various icons on the screen, and labeling those icons. The demo of jaws sees the icons (NVDA does not), though even jaws doesn't know what those icons are, so with this information in hand, how would one go about making NVDA see these icons, and provide labels to them so they can be properly identified? I have no problem doing the work myself, I just don't know how/what to do. There isn't anything in the NVDA manual discussing this topic, and there probably should be. |
||||
|
|
||||
|
What sort of base program are we talking about here? A great many programs (again, depending on age and how widely used) introduced alternate text to allow graphics of any type to be labeled and most screen readers rely on that alternate text to tell you what the graphic you've landed on happens to be. It's well nigh impossible to tell anything meaningful based on most icon file names. I'm also trying to envision the sort of program being discussed, which is almost certainly not web based (or you'd have scripting support related to browser already in place) but does present information on the screen. Since icons are mentioned I'd have to believe a GUI is involved, too. Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re alive, it isn’t. ~ Lauren Bacall
|
||||
|
|
||||
|
enes sarıbaş
hi, spss is java based. On 11/16/2016 9:12 PM, Brian Vogel
wrote:
|
||||
|
|
||||
|
I doubt that Travis is discussing SPSS or he wouldn't have spun off a separate thread. I'm curious to know what he is talking about (and if I'm incorrect, that happens).
-- Brian Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re alive, it isn’t. ~ Lauren Bacall
|
||||
|
|
||||
|
Travis Siegel
I know NVDA doesn't have a label icons feature, that's why I'm
asking how/what to do to make this program accessible. If it
entails writing a script, that's fine, but where do I find
information on writing scripts for NVDA? If it entails something
else, that's fine too, but where do I find said information to
accomplish the task. It doesn't matter what's required, I just need to know what that is, and where to go to get information on said requirements.
On 11/16/2016 1:06 PM, Gene wrote:
|
||||
|
|
||||
|
Travis Siegel
It's a disk management program written in C++, but that is immaterial. The process for making a program accessible with NVDA should be documented/discussed somewhere, and I want to find that documentation, so I can make this program accessible whether it be via scripting, or some other process. Once that's done, I'll more than likely use the same process (assuming there is such a process) to make other not accessible programs usable. Perhaps this is the wrong list to be asking these questions, but I have to start somewhere.
On 11/16/2016 1:12 PM, Brian Vogel
wrote:
|
||||
|
|
||||
|
mk360
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 3:41 PM, Travis Siegel <tsiegel@...> wrote:
|
||||
|
|
||||
|
Hi Travis and others, I recommend taking the following steps: 1. Contact IBM (SPSS developer) and give as much feedback as possible. 2. Ask IBM to contact NV Access about making SPSS screen reader friendly (not just with NVVDa, but with others). 3. If possible, ask The Documentation Foundation (TDF) and have them contact IBM about how to use JAB and/or IAccessible to make SPSS more accessible. 4. If the above does not work, then it is time to learn Python programming language and write an app module for SPSS. But just in case things doesn’t work out, learning about Python would help you, as you are not limited to what scripting languages for screen readers provides – learning Python means millions of possibilities are open, including scientific computing, accessible GUI programs, web scraping and so on, not just writing app modules for a Python-based screen reader. But please try at least steps 1 and 2 and report back to us as to what IBM says. If not, I or someone who can represent NV Access can contact IBM and state a case on your behalf (note that I myself am not an employee of NV Access). Also, as a general rule: before writing scripts for an app, contact app developers first, and then consider writing scripts as one of the last options regardless of whether it’s a website, a desktop app, a universal app and so on. Cheers, Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Travis Siegel
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 10:41 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable)
I know NVDA doesn't have a label icons feature, that's why I'm asking how/what to do to make this program accessible. If it entails writing a script, that's fine, but where do I find information on writing scripts for NVDA? If it entails something else, that's fine too, but where do I find said information to accomplish the task. It doesn't matter what's required, I just need to know what that is, and where to go to get information on said requirements.
On 11/16/2016 1:06 PM, Gene wrote:
|
||||
|
|
||||
|
Gene
How much learning and work do you want to do?
others will probably comment on this but there are people in the community who
will work on making programs accessible when requested. But how many there
are and how available their services are, I don't know. I'm sure you can
learn how to do things like script but you might rather look into having someone
do this.
Gene ----- Original Message -----
From: Travis Siegel
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] making a program accessible (was spss
inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable) It's a disk management program written in C++, but that is immaterial. The process for making a program accessible with NVDA should be documented/discussed somewhere, and I want to find that documentation, so I can make this program accessible whether it be via scripting, or some other process. Once that's done, I'll more than likely use the same process (assuming there is such a process) to make other not accessible programs usable. Perhaps this is the wrong list to be asking these questions, but I have to start somewhere. On 11/16/2016 1:12 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
|
||||
|
|
||||
|
Travis Siegel
If I wanted to get others to do the work, I wouldn't be asking how to do the task myself now would I?? Look. I've written jaws scripts before to make things accessible (both for myself and others). But, I haven't used a windows machine in more than ten years, and now that I have a new windows machine, I'm finding the windows world sadly lacking in accessible programs in various arenas, and despite obstacles being thrown up at every turn, I'm actually trying to do something about that. Believe me, I'm sorely tempted to just junk the whole windows as an os for me idea, and go back to my linux and OSX machines, but I'm trying hard *not* to do that, because I know I can't be the only person who is frustrated by the whole windows experience. I'm sure there are some who are perfectly happy with their windows experience, and to those folks, I say good for you. Unfortunately, I am not one of those people, and I'd like to at least attempt to do something about it before throwing in the towel and abandoning windows (again). So, at least try to give me some credit here, and when I ask a question about something, it's generally because I want the answer to that question, not some statement of difficulty, or pass the buck kind of crap. ok?
Now, with all of that said. Are there any places I can get information on making programs (already written programs I should qualify) accessible using NVDA? If not, why not, and if so, where are they? I have already downloaded the NVDA source code, and short of combing through all of the source, and memorizing thousands of lines of code, there has to be some way to learn what I need to knowin an easy and organized manner. The following information has no bearing on this discussion other than in a general way, but I add it just for background information). When the author of windowbridge died, I contacted his brother,
and asked what was going to be done with windowbridge. After some
discussions, I offered to buy the windowbridge source, and
continue development on the program, just so folks would have
choices in the screen reader market. I'm a strong proponent of
choices, no matter what the area of discussion may be, and I saw
(at the time) a real need for another player in the screen reader
market. Things got screwed up (mostly due to UPS), and while I did receive *some* of the required materials to continue work on windowbridge, I never did get the whole development environment, and/or supporting libraries. As a result, unless I'm willing to rewrite windowbridge from the ground up, there's nothing I can do with the currently existing source code. I could take the time to rewrite the pieces I need to remove dependencies on the libraries and pieces of code I didn't get, but that likely wouldn't be worth the effort, I could probably write a screen reader from scratch for less effort. That was part of the reason I left the windows world, other frustrations included the gaming community, and how just plain rude they were to developers, and the fact that apple came out with this shiny new operating system that was accessible right out of the box for anyone, and I didn't have to pay extra for my screen reader. Now, it's been more than ten years since all of that stuff occurred, and although I'm still very much anchored in the linux/OSX/BSD world, I figure enough time has passed, that perhaps the windows world isn't quite as discouraging as it once was, so I'm making another attempt to help the vi community by helping out where I can, and that appears to be in making NVDA more accessible to more programs. I'm not a fan of python, but I'm not opposed to working with it if it will benefit the blind community as a whole. Now, with all of that said, if anyone has any suggestions on where I can find the information I'm after (preferably without digging through thousands of lines of code) I'd be happy to hear them. If no such documentation exists, then perhaps I'll work on creating such information to make it easier for the next person who wants to help.
On 11/16/2016 1:55 PM, Gene wrote:
|
||||
|
|
||||
|
mk360
You can see the NVDA development guide, which is located on the NVDA git repository. The guide has examples and other information... also you need to know python. Regards,On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 4:28 PM, Travis Siegel <tsiegel@...> wrote:
|
||||
|
|
||||
|
Gene
I don't know what you have done and I don't make
assumptions. At times, people on lists ask how things are done and they
don't know what is involved. Please keep such things in mind. If I
knew you already, I wouldn't have answered because I would already have known
what you wanted.
Gene ----- Original Message -----
From: Travis Siegel
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] making a program accessible (was spss
inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable) If I wanted to get others to do the work, I wouldn't be asking how to do the task myself now would I?? Look. I've written jaws scripts before to make things accessible (both for myself and others). But, I haven't used a windows machine in more than ten years, and now that I have a new windows machine, I'm finding the windows world sadly lacking in accessible programs in various arenas, and despite obstacles being thrown up at every turn, I'm actually trying to do something about that. Believe me, I'm sorely tempted to just junk the whole windows as an os for me idea, and go back to my linux and OSX machines, but I'm trying hard *not* to do that, because I know I can't be the only person who is frustrated by the whole windows experience. I'm sure there are some who are perfectly happy with their windows experience, and to those folks, I say good for you. Unfortunately, I am not one of those people, and I'd like to at least attempt to do something about it before throwing in the towel and abandoning windows (again). So, at least try to give me some credit here, and when I ask a question about something, it's generally because I want the answer to that question, not some statement of difficulty, or pass the buck kind of crap. ok? Now, with all of that said. Are there any places I can get information on making programs (already written programs I should qualify) accessible using NVDA? If not, why not, and if so, where are they? I have already downloaded the NVDA source code, and short of combing through all of the source, and memorizing thousands of lines of code, there has to be some way to learn what I need to knowin an easy and organized manner. The following information has no bearing on this discussion other than in a general way, but I add it just for background information). When the author of windowbridge died, I contacted his brother, and asked what
was going to be done with windowbridge. After some discussions, I offered
to buy the windowbridge source, and continue development on the program, just so
folks would have choices in the screen reader market. I'm a strong
proponent of choices, no matter what the area of discussion may be, and I saw
(at the time) a real need for another player in the screen reader
market. Things got screwed up (mostly due to UPS), and while I did receive *some* of the required materials to continue work on windowbridge, I never did get the whole development environment, and/or supporting libraries. As a result, unless I'm willing to rewrite windowbridge from the ground up, there's nothing I can do with the currently existing source code. I could take the time to rewrite the pieces I need to remove dependencies on the libraries and pieces of code I didn't get, but that likely wouldn't be worth the effort, I could probably write a screen reader from scratch for less effort. That was part of the reason I left the windows world, other frustrations included the gaming community, and how just plain rude they were to developers, and the fact that apple came out with this shiny new operating system that was accessible right out of the box for anyone, and I didn't have to pay extra for my screen reader. Now, it's been more than ten years since all of that stuff occurred, and although I'm still very much anchored in the linux/OSX/BSD world, I figure enough time has passed, that perhaps the windows world isn't quite as discouraging as it once was, so I'm making another attempt to help the vi community by helping out where I can, and that appears to be in making NVDA more accessible to more programs. I'm not a fan of python, but I'm not opposed to working with it if it will benefit the blind community as a whole. Now, with all of that said, if anyone has any suggestions on where I can find the information I'm after (preferably without digging through thousands of lines of code) I'd be happy to hear them. If no such documentation exists, then perhaps I'll work on creating such information to make it easier for the next person who wants to help. On 11/16/2016 1:55 PM, Gene wrote:
|
||||
|
|
||||
|
Hi Travis and others:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I'm sorry to hear about your experiences, particularly when it comes to getting developer information. I'll address your concerns on a different thread. Cheers, Joseph ----- Original Message -----
From: "Travis Siegel" <tsiegel@... To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Date sent: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 14:28:55 -0500 Subject: Re: [nvda] making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable) If I wanted to get others to do the work, I wouldn't be asking how to do the task myself now would I?? Look. I've written jaws scripts before to make things accessible (both for myself and others). But, I haven't used a windows machine in more than ten years, and now that I have a new windows machine, I'm finding the windows world sadly lacking in accessible programs in various arenas, and despite obstacles being thrown up at every turn, I'm actually trying to do something about that. Believe me, I'm sorely tempted to just junk the whole windows as an os for me idea, and go back to my linux and OSX machines, but I'm trying hard *not* to do that, because I know I can't be the only person who is frustrated by the whole windows experience. I'm sure there are some who are perfectly happy with their windows experience, and to those folks, I say good for you. Unfortunately, I am not one of those people, and I'd like to at least attempt to do something about it before throwing in the towel and abandoning windows (again). So, at least try to give me some credit here, and when I ask a question about something, it's generally because I want the answer to that question, not some statement of difficulty, or pass the buck kind of crap. ok? Now, with all of that said. Are there any places I can get information on making programs (already written programs I should qualify) accessible using NVDA? If not, why not, and if so, where are they? I have already downloaded the NVDA source code, and short of combing through all of the source, and memorizing thousands of lines of code, there has to be some way to learn what I need to knowin an easy and organized manner. The following information has no bearing on this discussion other than in a general way, but I add it just for background information). When the author of windowbridge died, I contacted his brother, and asked what was going to be done with windowbridge. After some discussions, I offered to buy the windowbridge source, and continue development on the program, just so folks would have choices in the screen reader market. I'm a strong proponent of choices, no matter what the area of discussion may be, and I saw (at the time) a real need for another player in the screen reader market. Things got screwed up (mostly due to UPS), and while I did receive *some* of the required materials to continue work on windowbridge, I never did get the whole development environment, and/or supporting libraries. As a result, unless I'm willing to rewrite windowbridge from the ground up, there's nothing I can do with the currently existing source code. I could take the time to rewrite the pieces I need to remove dependencies on the libraries and pieces of code I didn't get, but that likely wouldn't be worth the effort, I could probably write a screen reader from scratch for less effort. That was part of the reason I left the windows world, other frustrations included the gaming community, and how just plain rude they were to developers, and the fact that apple came out with this shiny new operating system that was accessible right out of the box for anyone, and I didn't have to pay extra for my screen reader. Now, it's been more than ten years since all of that stuff occurred, and although I'm still very much anchored in the linux/OSX/BSD world, I figure enough time has passed, that perhaps the windows world isn't quite as discouraging as it once was, so I'm making another attempt to help the vi community by helping out where I can, and that appears to be in making NVDA more accessible to more programs. I'm not a fan of python, but I'm not opposed to working with it if it will benefit the blind community as a whole. Now, with all of that said, if anyone has any suggestions on where I can find the information I'm after (preferably without digging through thousands of lines of code) I'd be happy to hear them. If no such documentation exists, then perhaps I'll work on creating such information to make it easier for the next person who wants to help. On 11/16/2016 1:55 PM, Gene wrote: How much learning and work do you want to do? others will probably comment on this but there are people in the community who will work on making programs accessible when requested. But how many there are and how available their services are, I don't know. I'm sure you can learn how to do things like script but you might rather look into having someone do this. Gene ----- Original Message ----- *From:* Travis Siegel <mailto:tsiegel@... *Sent:* Wednesday, November 16, 2016 12:46 PM *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io *Subject:* Re: [nvda] making a program accessible (was spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable) It's a disk management program written in C++, but that is immaterial. The process for making a program accessible with NVDA should be documented/discussed somewhere, and I want to find that documentation, so I can make this program accessible whether it be via scripting, or some other process. Once that's done, I'll more than likely use the same process (assuming there is such a process) to make other not accessible programs usable. Perhaps this is the wrong list to be asking these questions, but I have to start somewhere. On 11/16/2016 1:12 PM, Brian Vogel wrote: What sort of base program are we talking about here? A great many programs (again, depending on age and how widely used) introduced alternate text to allow graphics of any type to be labeled and most screen readers rely on that alternate text to tell you what the graphic you've landed on happens to be. It's well nigh impossible to tell anything meaningful based on most icon file names. I'm also trying to envision the sort of program being discussed, which is almost certainly not web based (or you'd have scripting support related to browser already in place) but does present information on the screen. Since icons are mentioned I'd have to believe a GUI is involved, too. -- */Brian/* */Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you're alive, it isn't./* //~ Lauren Bacall ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------- Avast logo <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link &utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link &utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient |
||||
|
|
||||
|
You need to learn python first learning how to code addons is semi easy with the guide.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Another way is to use the controler client to control things. Failing that there are libraries like tolque that can control multiple screen readers at once and that may be enough. On 17/11/2016 7:55 a.m., Gene wrote:
How much learning and work do you want to do? others will probably comment on this but there are people in the community who will work on making programs accessible when requested. But how many there are and how available their services are, I don't know. I'm sure you can learn how to do things like script but you might rather look into having someone do this. |
||||
|
|
||||
|
Gene New Zealand <hurrikennyandopo@...>
hi
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
At present there is no graphics label er in NVDA. I know at one time there was some work done, but not heard much since. have a look at the following ticket not sure if it was linked to any others, but hopefully i found the right one. My self as well i would like to see this in NVDA. I use talkback on my phone and i seem to use the labeler more offen if needed. The link to the ticket is https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/2111 Gene nz On 17/11/2016 6:39 AM, Travis Siegel wrote:
Actually, this thread brings up something I've been wondering about |
||||
|
|
