Proposal to set NVDA's desktop layout object navigation keys to be active in desktop layout only


Quentin Christensen
 

Following on from the Key assignments in NVDA thread, I have created an issue on GitHub:  https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/9549 

Basically, the desktop layout object navigation and review cursor keys in NVDA are actually set to be active for ALL keyboard layouts.

Laptop layout was designed for users without a number pad, but there are users who use Laptop layout but still have a number pad and wish to use this for navigation (Without NVDA running, the number pad, with numlock off, replicates the navigation keys of home, end, page up, page down, insert, delete and the arrow keys and some laptops have a number pad but no separate navigation keys).

My proposal then is to set the desktop object navigation / review cursor keys to be active in desktop layout only.

If there is anyone who uses laptop layout but still wants to access the desktop layout object navigation keys, please let us know!

Kind regards

Quentin.

--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


 

Quentin,
I do have a laptop which was supposed to have a numpad. Nowadays, it's not working.
So, with this new proposal, would I lose all the functionalities related to object navigation?
If so, I'd imagine that the proposal for a hybrid layout is more desirable, especially for me because this way I don't lose access to all of this.

Cheers,
Marcio AKA Starboy

Sent from a galaxy far, far away.

--
Are you a Thunderbird user? Then join the Thunderbird mailing list to help and be helped with all Thunderbird things - questions, features, add-ons and much more!

Em 08/05/2019 21:11, Quentin Christensen disse:

Following on from the Key assignments in NVDA thread, I have created an issue on GitHub:  https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/9549 

Basically, the desktop layout object navigation and review cursor keys in NVDA are actually set to be active for ALL keyboard layouts.

Laptop layout was designed for users without a number pad, but there are users who use Laptop layout but still have a number pad and wish to use this for navigation (Without NVDA running, the number pad, with numlock off, replicates the navigation keys of home, end, page up, page down, insert, delete and the arrow keys and some laptops have a number pad but no separate navigation keys).

My proposal then is to set the desktop object navigation / review cursor keys to be active in desktop layout only.

If there is anyone who uses laptop layout but still wants to access the desktop layout object navigation keys, please let us know!

Kind regards

Quentin.

--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 



Ralf Kefferpuetz
 

For a laptop with a numpad just set the layout to desktop and you’re done.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of marcio via Groups.Io
Sent: Donnerstag, 9. Mai 2019 11:26
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Proposal to set NVDA's desktop layout object navigation keys to be active in desktop layout only

 

Quentin,
I do have a laptop which was supposed to have a numpad. Nowadays, it's not working.
So, with this new proposal, would I lose all the functionalities related to object navigation?
If so, I'd imagine that the proposal for a hybrid layout is more desirable, especially for me because this way I don't lose access to all of this.


Cheers,
Marcio

AKA Starboy

 

Sent from a galaxy far, far away.

--
Are you a Thunderbird user? Then join the Thunderbird mailing list to help and be helped with all Thunderbird things - questions, features, add-ons and much more!

Em 08/05/2019 21:11, Quentin Christensen disse:

Following on from the Key assignments in NVDA thread, I have created an issue on GitHub:  https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/9549 

 

Basically, the desktop layout object navigation and review cursor keys in NVDA are actually set to be active for ALL keyboard layouts.

 

Laptop layout was designed for users without a number pad, but there are users who use Laptop layout but still have a number pad and wish to use this for navigation (Without NVDA running, the number pad, with numlock off, replicates the navigation keys of home, end, page up, page down, insert, delete and the arrow keys and some laptops have a number pad but no separate navigation keys).

 

My proposal then is to set the desktop object navigation / review cursor keys to be active in desktop layout only.

 

If there is anyone who uses laptop layout but still wants to access the desktop layout object navigation keys, please let us know!

 

Kind regards

 

Quentin.

 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

 

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 

 


Quentin Christensen
 

Hi Marcio,

Do you use laptop layout or desktop layout currently?  Laptop layout already redefines all the object navigation keys to use other keys on the keyboard (the original idea was that laptop layout would provide full functionality on a keyboard without a number pad).  Currently what actually happens is that with NVDA in laptop keyboard layout, you have access to BOTH the laptop layout object navigation, AND the desktop (number pad) object navigation.

Our proposal is to set the number pad object navigation commands to work ONLY in Desktop layout (which is what most people expect anyway).

Would that break how you currently use NVDA?  Since you said your number pad isn't working, it sounds like it shouldn't make a difference, but maybe I didn't explain it well to begin with.

Quentin.

On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 8:37 PM Ralf Kefferpuetz <ralf.kefferpuetz@...> wrote:

For a laptop with a numpad just set the layout to desktop and you’re done.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of marcio via Groups.Io
Sent: Donnerstag, 9. Mai 2019 11:26
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Proposal to set NVDA's desktop layout object navigation keys to be active in desktop layout only

 

Quentin,
I do have a laptop which was supposed to have a numpad. Nowadays, it's not working.
So, with this new proposal, would I lose all the functionalities related to object navigation?
If so, I'd imagine that the proposal for a hybrid layout is more desirable, especially for me because this way I don't lose access to all of this.


Cheers,
Marcio

AKA Starboy

 

Sent from a galaxy far, far away.

--
Are you a Thunderbird user? Then join the Thunderbird mailing list to help and be helped with all Thunderbird things - questions, features, add-ons and much more!

Em 08/05/2019 21:11, Quentin Christensen disse:

Following on from the Key assignments in NVDA thread, I have created an issue on GitHub:  https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/9549 

 

Basically, the desktop layout object navigation and review cursor keys in NVDA are actually set to be active for ALL keyboard layouts.

 

Laptop layout was designed for users without a number pad, but there are users who use Laptop layout but still have a number pad and wish to use this for navigation (Without NVDA running, the number pad, with numlock off, replicates the navigation keys of home, end, page up, page down, insert, delete and the arrow keys and some laptops have a number pad but no separate navigation keys).

 

My proposal then is to set the desktop object navigation / review cursor keys to be active in desktop layout only.

 

If there is anyone who uses laptop layout but still wants to access the desktop layout object navigation keys, please let us know!

 

Kind regards

 

Quentin.

 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

 

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 

 



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


David Moore
 

Hi Quentin!

I wanted you to know that

I use the laptop commands for object navigation on my laptop, even though it has a Number pad.

I like the laptop commands better, because you can keep your hands right on the alpha-numeric keys. I love just being able to hold down the shift and NVDA keys, and just press the arrow keys to do object nav.

I would not be affected at all.

I just wanted you to know!

David Moore

                                                                Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2019 5:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Proposal to set NVDA's desktop layout object navigationkeys to be active in desktop layout only

 

Hi Marcio,

 

Do you use laptop layout or desktop layout currently?  Laptop layout already redefines all the object navigation keys to use other keys on the keyboard (the original idea was that laptop layout would provide full functionality on a keyboard without a number pad).  Currently what actually happens is that with NVDA in laptop keyboard layout, you have access to BOTH the laptop layout object navigation, AND the desktop (number pad) object navigation.

 

Our proposal is to set the number pad object navigation commands to work ONLY in Desktop layout (which is what most people expect anyway).

 

Would that break how you currently use NVDA?  Since you said your number pad isn't working, it sounds like it shouldn't make a difference, but maybe I didn't explain it well to begin with.

 

Quentin.

 

On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 8:37 PM Ralf Kefferpuetz <ralf.kefferpuetz@...> wrote:

For a laptop with a numpad just set the layout to desktop and you’re done.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of marcio via Groups.Io
Sent: Donnerstag, 9. Mai 2019 11:26
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Proposal to set NVDA's desktop layout object navigation keys to be active in desktop layout only

 

Quentin,
I do have a laptop which was supposed to have a numpad. Nowadays, it's not working.
So, with this new proposal, would I lose all the functionalities related to object navigation?
If so, I'd imagine that the proposal for a hybrid layout is more desirable, especially for me because this way I don't lose access to all of this.


Cheers,
Marcio

AKA Starboy

 

Sent from a galaxy far, far away.

--
Are you a Thunderbird user? Then join the Thunderbird mailing list to help and be helped with all Thunderbird things - questions, features, add-ons and much more!

Em 08/05/2019 21:11, Quentin Christensen disse:

Following on from the Key assignments in NVDA thread, I have created an issue on GitHub:  https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/9549 

 

Basically, the desktop layout object navigation and review cursor keys in NVDA are actually set to be active for ALL keyboard layouts.

 

Laptop layout was designed for users without a number pad, but there are users who use Laptop layout but still have a number pad and wish to use this for navigation (Without NVDA running, the number pad, with numlock off, replicates the navigation keys of home, end, page up, page down, insert, delete and the arrow keys and some laptops have a number pad but no separate navigation keys).

 

My proposal then is to set the desktop object navigation / review cursor keys to be active in desktop layout only.

 

If there is anyone who uses laptop layout but still wants to access the desktop layout object navigation keys, please let us know!

 

Kind regards

 

Quentin.

 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

 

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 

 


 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

 

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 

 


Tyler Wood
 

I personally use both commands when it suits me. Is there any reason in particular this is being done or is it simply to make things less confusing?

Can this perhaps be toggleable? I find it super nice, for example, to hit a command on the num pad with one hand but other times I really enjoy the laptop layout. It just depends what I’m doing at the time.

Thanks!

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Moore
Sent: May 9, 2019 5:35 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Proposal to set NVDA's desktop layout object navigationkeys to be active in desktop layout only

 

Hi Quentin!

I wanted you to know that

I use the laptop commands for object navigation on my laptop, even though it has a Number pad.

I like the laptop commands better, because you can keep your hands right on the alpha-numeric keys. I love just being able to hold down the shift and NVDA keys, and just press the arrow keys to do object nav.

I would not be affected at all.

I just wanted you to know!

David Moore

                                                                Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2019 5:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Proposal to set NVDA's desktop layout object navigationkeys to be active in desktop layout only

 

Hi Marcio,

 

Do you use laptop layout or desktop layout currently?  Laptop layout already redefines all the object navigation keys to use other keys on the keyboard (the original idea was that laptop layout would provide full functionality on a keyboard without a number pad).  Currently what actually happens is that with NVDA in laptop keyboard layout, you have access to BOTH the laptop layout object navigation, AND the desktop (number pad) object navigation.

 

Our proposal is to set the number pad object navigation commands to work ONLY in Desktop layout (which is what most people expect anyway).

 

Would that break how you currently use NVDA?  Since you said your number pad isn't working, it sounds like it shouldn't make a difference, but maybe I didn't explain it well to begin with.

 

Quentin.

 

On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 8:37 PM Ralf Kefferpuetz <ralf.kefferpuetz@...> wrote:

For a laptop with a numpad just set the layout to desktop and you’re done.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of marcio via Groups.Io
Sent: Donnerstag, 9. Mai 2019 11:26
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Proposal to set NVDA's desktop layout object navigation keys to be active in desktop layout only

 

Quentin,
I do have a laptop which was supposed to have a numpad. Nowadays, it's not working.
So, with this new proposal, would I lose all the functionalities related to object navigation?
If so, I'd imagine that the proposal for a hybrid layout is more desirable, especially for me because this way I don't lose access to all of this.


Cheers,
Marcio

AKA Starboy

 

Sent from a galaxy far, far away.

--
Are you a Thunderbird user? Then join the Thunderbird mailing list to help and be helped with all Thunderbird things - questions, features, add-ons and much more!

Em 08/05/2019 21:11, Quentin Christensen disse:

Following on from the Key assignments in NVDA thread, I have created an issue on GitHub:  https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/9549 

 

Basically, the desktop layout object navigation and review cursor keys in NVDA are actually set to be active for ALL keyboard layouts.

 

Laptop layout was designed for users without a number pad, but there are users who use Laptop layout but still have a number pad and wish to use this for navigation (Without NVDA running, the number pad, with numlock off, replicates the navigation keys of home, end, page up, page down, insert, delete and the arrow keys and some laptops have a number pad but no separate navigation keys).

 

My proposal then is to set the desktop object navigation / review cursor keys to be active in desktop layout only.

 

If there is anyone who uses laptop layout but still wants to access the desktop layout object navigation keys, please let us know!

 

Kind regards

 

Quentin.

 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

 

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 

 


 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

 

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 

 


Luke Davis
 

On Thu, 9 May 2019, Tyler Wood wrote:

I personally use both commands when it suits me. Is there any reason in particular this is being done or is it simply to make things less confusing?
The reason is, that people using laptop layout, but who also have a number pad, have a reasonable expectation that since they are using laptop layout, that number pad will be available to do standard navigation (home, end, up, down, page up, page down).
Currently, it is not--the desktop layout object nav keys are still there in laptop layout, which doesn't make much sense.

Can this perhaps be toggleable? I find it super nice, for example, to hit a command on the num pad with one hand but other times I really enjoy the laptop
layout. It just depends what I’m doing at the time.
Not my question to answer, but personally I would think having it off by default, with a checkbox in keyboard config to turn it back on if desired, would not be objectionable.
"Replicate object navigation on number pad in laptop layout"

Luke


Gene
 

Years ago, I suggested and argued that a way be found to allow numpad insert numpad 2 to function as a read to end command, as it does in JAWS.  JAWS also allows any JAWS key to be used with down arrow on the main keyboard, and NVDA allows any NVD A key to be used with down arrow on the main keyboard.  So in that respect, they function with the same pattern.  But this command, one which is very popular among JAWS users, and all the other numpad commands would also be available in NVDA if the numpad were allowed to function in the default way in laptop layout.  In other words, numpad 4 would be equivalent to left arrow, numpad 6 would be equivalent to right arrow, etc.  Holding the numpad insert and using numpad 4 and 6 would move you back and forward by word, at least as I understand matters.  My understanding is that JAWS doesn't alter the numpad functioning in any way, thus allowing it to perform its default actions. 
 
This would make NVDA far more friendly to those who already use the Numpad this way in JAWS if they are switching or using it as another screen-reader, and it would also make it far friendlier to those who use JAWS in this way because they have problems using both hands.  It is not at all friendly to force people to either use either insert and the down arrow on the main keyboard, an uncomfortable command I very much object to for such a common command as read to end, or to have to use capslock down arrow on the main keyboard, which requires two hands.  now, it might finally be done.
 
I have no objection to this being user controlable, having the ability to have the numpad on and off regarding NVDA functions in laptop mode.  But the option to have it off should be there and it should probably be the default.  And when using the desktop layout, why not have the same option so that desktop users who seldom use object navigation or flat review can have this option as well.  But with the desktop, the numpad NVDA functions should be on by default.
 
Gene
----- Origiinal Message -----

From: Luke Davis
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2019 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Proposal to set NVDA's desktop layout object navigationkeys to be active in desktop layout only

On Thu, 9 May 2019, Tyler Wood wrote:

> I personally use both commands when it suits me. Is there any reason in particular this is being done or is it simply to make things less confusing?

The reason is, that people using laptop layout, but who also have a number pad,
have a reasonable expectation that since they are using laptop layout, that
number pad will be available to do standard navigation (home, end, up, down,
page up, page down).
Currently, it is not--the desktop layout object nav keys are still there in
laptop layout, which doesn't make much sense.

> Can this perhaps be toggleable? I find it super nice, for example, to hit a command on the num pad with one hand but other times I really enjoy the laptop
> layout. It just depends what I’m doing at the time.

Not my question to answer, but personally I would think having it off by
default, with a checkbox in keyboard config to turn it back on if desired, would
not be objectionable.
"Replicate object navigation on number pad in laptop layout"

Luke




Sarah k Alawami
 

I personally would want the number pad to act as a number pad so I can use let's say the num pad 2 to do something in my sim and not as end. Etc. I end a 6 pack on my keyboard so for me it just is not needed.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 9 May 2019, at 17:28, Luke Davis wrote:

On Thu, 9 May 2019, Tyler Wood wrote:

I personally use both commands when it suits me. Is there any reason in particular this is being done or is it simply to make things less confusing?

The reason is, that people using laptop layout, but who also have a number pad, have a reasonable expectation that since they are using laptop layout, that number pad will be available to do standard navigation (home, end, up, down, page up, page down).
Currently, it is not--the desktop layout object nav keys are still there in laptop layout, which doesn't make much sense.

Can this perhaps be toggleable? I find it super nice, for example, to hit a command on the num pad with one hand but other times I really enjoy the laptop
layout. It just depends what I’m doing at the time.

Not my question to answer, but personally I would think having it off by default, with a checkbox in keyboard config to turn it back on if desired, would not be objectionable.
"Replicate object navigation on number pad in laptop layout"

Luke


Ed Marquette
 


You may want to consider those of us who use a laptop, but who frequently either plug in a USP keyboard with a full number ped or plug the laptop into a port replication device and use a dedicated full keyboard with a number pad.
We frequently carry the laptop back and forth, using either the built-in keyboard with no number pad  or use the external keyboard.  For this reason, I like to keep the laptop set to laptop mode, but just use the separate number pad if it is   available.
Sometimes, when I’m concentrating, I forget what is actually enabled.  So, if laptop keyboard is always engaged and I have a full keyboard, I just use the separate number pad, and use the laptop navigation keys either when there is no separate number pad  or when I’m just concentrating.
Why not have an option three, e.g.:
1.  Laptop mode (with number pad functions disabled);
2.  Desktop; and
3.  Laptop with number pad still enabled?
 


On May 9, 2019, at 4:52 PM, Quentin Christensen <quentin@...> wrote:

Hi Marcio,

Do you use laptop layout or desktop layout currently?  Laptop layout already redefines all the object navigation keys to use other keys on the keyboard (the original idea was that laptop layout would provide full functionality on a keyboard without a number pad).  Currently what actually happens is that with NVDA in laptop keyboard layout, you have access to BOTH the laptop layout object navigation, AND the desktop (number pad) object navigation.

Our proposal is to set the number pad object navigation commands to work ONLY in Desktop layout (which is what most people expect anyway).

Would that break how you currently use NVDA?  Since you said your number pad isn't working, it sounds like it shouldn't make a difference, but maybe I didn't explain it well to begin with.

Quentin.

On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 8:37 PM Ralf Kefferpuetz <ralf.kefferpuetz@...> wrote:

For a laptop with a numpad just set the layout to desktop and you’re done.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of marcio via Groups.Io
Sent: Donnerstag, 9. Mai 2019 11:26
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Proposal to set NVDA's desktop layout object navigation keys to be active in desktop layout only

 

Quentin,
I do have a laptop which was supposed to have a numpad. Nowadays, it's not working.
So, with this new proposal, would I lose all the functionalities related to object navigation?
If so, I'd imagine that the proposal for a hybrid layout is more desirable, especially for me because this way I don't lose access to all of this.


Cheers,
Marcio

AKA Starboy

 

Sent from a galaxy far, far away.

--
Are you a Thunderbird user? Then join the Thunderbird mailing list to help and be helped with all Thunderbird things - questions, features, add-ons and much more!

Em 08/05/2019 21:11, Quentin Christensen disse:

Following on from the Key assignments in NVDA thread, I have created an issue on GitHub:  https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/9549 

 

Basically, the desktop layout object navigation and review cursor keys in NVDA are actually set to be active for ALL keyboard layouts.

 

Laptop layout was designed for users without a number pad, but there are users who use Laptop layout but still have a number pad and wish to use this for navigation (Without NVDA running, the number pad, with numlock off, replicates the navigation keys of home, end, page up, page down, insert, delete and the arrow keys and some laptops have a number pad but no separate navigation keys).

 

My proposal then is to set the desktop object navigation / review cursor keys to be active in desktop layout only.

 

If there is anyone who uses laptop layout but still wants to access the desktop layout object navigation keys, please let us know!

 

Kind regards

 

Quentin.

 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

 

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 

 



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Cristóbal
 

Honestly, why restrict functionality? Being able to execute commands either from the main keyboard or numpad depending on what you’re doing or where your hands are is a huge plus. Be it with Jaws or NVDA.

This was part of my issue I wrote about a  while back with NVDA. That there wasn’t a means to navigate via paragraph, line or whatever strictly off of the keyboard without having to use the arrow keys.

Some may think it’s redundant that there are duplicate commands for the same function, but again, I and I’m sure a lot of folks find it rather useful to accomplish the same task from both the numpad and main keyboard.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Moore
Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2019 3:35 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Proposal to set NVDA's desktop layout object navigationkeys to be active in desktop layout only

 

Hi Quentin!

I wanted you to know that

I use the laptop commands for object navigation on my laptop, even though it has a Number pad.

I like the laptop commands better, because you can keep your hands right on the alpha-numeric keys. I love just being able to hold down the shift and NVDA keys, and just press the arrow keys to do object nav.

I would not be affected at all.

I just wanted you to know!

David Moore

                                                                Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2019 5:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Proposal to set NVDA's desktop layout object navigationkeys to be active in desktop layout only

 

Hi Marcio,

 

Do you use laptop layout or desktop layout currently?  Laptop layout already redefines all the object navigation keys to use other keys on the keyboard (the original idea was that laptop layout would provide full functionality on a keyboard without a number pad).  Currently what actually happens is that with NVDA in laptop keyboard layout, you have access to BOTH the laptop layout object navigation, AND the desktop (number pad) object navigation.

 

Our proposal is to set the number pad object navigation commands to work ONLY in Desktop layout (which is what most people expect anyway).

 

Would that break how you currently use NVDA?  Since you said your number pad isn't working, it sounds like it shouldn't make a difference, but maybe I didn't explain it well to begin with.

 

Quentin.

 

On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 8:37 PM Ralf Kefferpuetz <ralf.kefferpuetz@...> wrote:

For a laptop with a numpad just set the layout to desktop and you’re done.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of marcio via Groups.Io
Sent: Donnerstag, 9. Mai 2019 11:26
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Proposal to set NVDA's desktop layout object navigation keys to be active in desktop layout only

 

Quentin,
I do have a laptop which was supposed to have a numpad. Nowadays, it's not working.
So, with this new proposal, would I lose all the functionalities related to object navigation?
If so, I'd imagine that the proposal for a hybrid layout is more desirable, especially for me because this way I don't lose access to all of this.


Cheers,
Marcio

AKA Starboy

 

Sent from a galaxy far, far away.

--
Are you a Thunderbird user? Then join the Thunderbird mailing list to help and be helped with all Thunderbird things - questions, features, add-ons and much more!

Em 08/05/2019 21:11, Quentin Christensen disse:

Following on from the Key assignments in NVDA thread, I have created an issue on GitHub:  https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/9549 

 

Basically, the desktop layout object navigation and review cursor keys in NVDA are actually set to be active for ALL keyboard layouts.

 

Laptop layout was designed for users without a number pad, but there are users who use Laptop layout but still have a number pad and wish to use this for navigation (Without NVDA running, the number pad, with numlock off, replicates the navigation keys of home, end, page up, page down, insert, delete and the arrow keys and some laptops have a number pad but no separate navigation keys).

 

My proposal then is to set the desktop object navigation / review cursor keys to be active in desktop layout only.

 

If there is anyone who uses laptop layout but still wants to access the desktop layout object navigation keys, please let us know!

 

Kind regards

 

Quentin.

 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

 

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 

 


 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

 

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 

 


Quentin Christensen
 

Ah, but the current situation (object navigation using two sets of keys in laptop layout) restricts functionality to those who have a number pad but no separate navigation keys.

My proposal, as you've pointed out, "restricts functionality" in only allowing one set of keys for functions at a time.

And the third proposal, to make a way of selecting either option, may not restrict functionality as such, but it adds complexity (an extra setting, or keystroke, or both), and for some users, that is as bad as they may find it confusing and not be able to setup NVDA how they would like.

Yes, you can make arguments for and against all of those points (for instance, I still don't see my proposal as restricting functionality, as there would still be at least ONE way of doing everything still at any given time), but there is no single solution that is going to work for everyone.  Yes it can be useful to be able to do something from the number if you are there, or from the main keyboard, if you are there, but the intention of laptop keyboard layout was to provide the ability to access all NVDA functions for those using laptops which didn't have number pads - it wasn't supposed to be just a way of duplicating functionality - in fact, if you want to add extra keystrokes, you can use the input gestures dialog to add as many as you like.

What I need to do, is work out what the best setup is for the majority of users, out of the box, and the easiest way to adjust the functionality for those who desire that (currently you could free the number pad in laptop layout, by deleting all those keystrokes in the Input Gestures dialog - however it would be a tedious process, and there is a great risk of accidentally removing a keystroke you intended to keep).



On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 11:41 AM Cristóbal <cristobalmuli@...> wrote:

Honestly, why restrict functionality? Being able to execute commands either from the main keyboard or numpad depending on what you’re doing or where your hands are is a huge plus. Be it with Jaws or NVDA.

This was part of my issue I wrote about a  while back with NVDA. That there wasn’t a means to navigate via paragraph, line or whatever strictly off of the keyboard without having to use the arrow keys.

Some may think it’s redundant that there are duplicate commands for the same function, but again, I and I’m sure a lot of folks find it rather useful to accomplish the same task from both the numpad and main keyboard.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Moore
Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2019 3:35 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Proposal to set NVDA's desktop layout object navigationkeys to be active in desktop layout only

 

Hi Quentin!

I wanted you to know that

I use the laptop commands for object navigation on my laptop, even though it has a Number pad.

I like the laptop commands better, because you can keep your hands right on the alpha-numeric keys. I love just being able to hold down the shift and NVDA keys, and just press the arrow keys to do object nav.

I would not be affected at all.

I just wanted you to know!

David Moore

                                                                Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2019 5:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Proposal to set NVDA's desktop layout object navigationkeys to be active in desktop layout only

 

Hi Marcio,

 

Do you use laptop layout or desktop layout currently?  Laptop layout already redefines all the object navigation keys to use other keys on the keyboard (the original idea was that laptop layout would provide full functionality on a keyboard without a number pad).  Currently what actually happens is that with NVDA in laptop keyboard layout, you have access to BOTH the laptop layout object navigation, AND the desktop (number pad) object navigation.

 

Our proposal is to set the number pad object navigation commands to work ONLY in Desktop layout (which is what most people expect anyway).

 

Would that break how you currently use NVDA?  Since you said your number pad isn't working, it sounds like it shouldn't make a difference, but maybe I didn't explain it well to begin with.

 

Quentin.

 

On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 8:37 PM Ralf Kefferpuetz <ralf.kefferpuetz@...> wrote:

For a laptop with a numpad just set the layout to desktop and you’re done.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of marcio via Groups.Io
Sent: Donnerstag, 9. Mai 2019 11:26
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Proposal to set NVDA's desktop layout object navigation keys to be active in desktop layout only

 

Quentin,
I do have a laptop which was supposed to have a numpad. Nowadays, it's not working.
So, with this new proposal, would I lose all the functionalities related to object navigation?
If so, I'd imagine that the proposal for a hybrid layout is more desirable, especially for me because this way I don't lose access to all of this.


Cheers,
Marcio

AKA Starboy

 

Sent from a galaxy far, far away.

--
Are you a Thunderbird user? Then join the Thunderbird mailing list to help and be helped with all Thunderbird things - questions, features, add-ons and much more!

Em 08/05/2019 21:11, Quentin Christensen disse:

Following on from the Key assignments in NVDA thread, I have created an issue on GitHub:  https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/9549 

 

Basically, the desktop layout object navigation and review cursor keys in NVDA are actually set to be active for ALL keyboard layouts.

 

Laptop layout was designed for users without a number pad, but there are users who use Laptop layout but still have a number pad and wish to use this for navigation (Without NVDA running, the number pad, with numlock off, replicates the navigation keys of home, end, page up, page down, insert, delete and the arrow keys and some laptops have a number pad but no separate navigation keys).

 

My proposal then is to set the desktop object navigation / review cursor keys to be active in desktop layout only.

 

If there is anyone who uses laptop layout but still wants to access the desktop layout object navigation keys, please let us know!

 

Kind regards

 

Quentin.

 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

 

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 

 


 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

 

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 

 



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


 

Quentin,
Would that break how you currently use NVDA?  Since you said your number pad isn't working, it sounds like it shouldn't make a difference, but maybe I didn't explain it well to begin with.
Ah, never mind it. It was a misinterpretation on my side.
It's indeed not going to affect me.

Thanks for the patience as I sometimes am a bit slow for understanding things. LOL

Cheers,
Marcio AKA Starboy

Sent from a galaxy far, far away.

--
Are you a Thunderbird user? Then join the Thunderbird mailing list to help and be helped with all Thunderbird things - questions, features, add-ons and much more!


Luke Davis
 

Responding to Ed Marquette's point: you would need a 4th, as Gene described, so that people who want desktop layout but don't want the numpad to act as review/object nav controls, can have that option.

So instead of all of these different intricate keyboard layout choices, it would seem more reasonable to me to keep the two current layouts, but have now two checkboxes under keyboard:

Numpad controls NVDA cursers in laptop layout (default to off)
Numpad controls NVDA cursers in desktop layout (default to on)

This would provide all possible options, without requiring a plethora of layout choices. It would also keep the setting from reverting when you changed keyboard layout choices--you would just get whatever functionality you had your checkboxes set to.

I would suggest further a keyboard shortcut to toggle numpad nav no matter what layout you're in, unassigned by default. That covers those who like to change their numpad functionality on the fly, but wouldn't get in the way of people who have no idea what this is all about.

Luke

On Thu, 9 May 2019, Ed Marquette wrote:

You may want to consider those of us who use a laptop, but who frequently either plug in a USP keyboard with a full number ped or plug the laptop into a
port replication device and use a dedicated full keyboard with a number pad.
We frequently carry the laptop back and forth, using either the built-in keyboard with no number pad  or use the external keyboard.  For this reason, I like
to keep the laptop set to laptop mode, but just use the separate number pad if it is   available.
Sometimes, when I’m concentrating, I forget what is actually enabled.  So, if laptop keyboard is always engaged and I have a full keyboard, I just use the
separate number pad, and use the laptop navigation keys either when there is no separate number pad  or when I’m just concentrating.
Why not have an option three, e.g.:
1.  Laptop mode (with number pad functions disabled);
2.  Desktop; and
3.  Laptop with number pad still enabled?


Luke Davis
 

On Fri, 10 May 2019, Quentin Christensen wrote:

Yes, you can make arguments for and against all of those points (for instance, I still don't see my proposal as restricting functionality, as there would
still be at least ONE way of doing everything still at any given time), but there is no single solution that is going to work for everyone.  Yes it can be
useful to be able to do something from the number if you are there, or from the main keyboard, if you are there, but the intention of laptop keyboard layout
was to provide the ability to access all NVDA functions for those using laptops which didn't have number pads - it wasn't supposed to be just a way of
duplicating functionality [.]
What I need to do, is work out what the best setup is for the majority of users, out of the box, and the easiest way to adjust the functionality for those
who desire that [.]
In another message (a few minutes ago), I proposed (1) adopting your proposal, which is still the most reasonable starting position, as the default; (2) then providing two checkboxes under keyboard options, to customize for users who want that. Lastly I added (3) an unassigned gesture to switch the numpad to the other state on the fly.

I say now: if you are concerned about simplicity, why not do (1) and (3), and eliminate (2)? That would have your proposal as the default (numpad nav in desktop, default numpad in laptop), and allow users who want it, and understand what they need, to make a keystroke (gesture) to toggle the state of the numpad in whatever layout their in. Hidden from those who would be confused, but there for those who need advanced configurations; and the default would behave as one would expect. No extra checkboxes, and still only two layouts needed.

Make that toggle state save with saved settings for those users who want to set one unusual config and forget it.

Luke


Kevin Cussick
 

I agree I use laptop even on the desktop machine, this is because I only want to learn one keyboard layout.

On 09/05/2019 23:35, David Moore wrote:
Hi Quentin!
I wanted you to know that
I use the laptop commands for object navigation on my laptop, even though it has a Number pad.
I like the laptop commands better, because you can keep your hands right on the alpha-numeric keys. I love just being able to hold down the shift and NVDA keys, and just press the arrow keys to do object nav.
I would not be affected at all.
I just wanted you to know!
David Moore
                                                                Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
*From: *Quentin Christensen <mailto:quentin@nvaccess.org>
*Sent: *Thursday, May 9, 2019 5:52 PM
*To: *nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject: *Re: [nvda] Proposal to set NVDA's desktop layout object navigationkeys to be active in desktop layout only
Hi Marcio,
Do you use laptop layout or desktop layout currently?  Laptop layout already redefines all the object navigation keys to use other keys on the keyboard (the original idea was that laptop layout would provide full functionality on a keyboard without a number pad).  Currently what actually happens is that with NVDA in laptop keyboard layout, you have access to BOTH the laptop layout object navigation, AND the desktop (number pad) object navigation.
Our proposal is to set the number pad object navigation commands to work ONLY in Desktop layout (which is what most people expect anyway).
Would that break how you currently use NVDA?  Since you said your number pad isn't working, it sounds like it shouldn't make a difference, but maybe I didn't explain it well to begin with.
Quentin.
On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 8:37 PM Ralf Kefferpuetz <ralf.kefferpuetz@elra-consulting.de <mailto:ralf.kefferpuetz@elra-consulting.de>> wrote:
For a laptop with a numpad just set the layout to desktop and you’re
done.
*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
*marcio via Groups.Io
*Sent:* Donnerstag, 9. Mai 2019 11:26
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Proposal to set NVDA's desktop layout object
navigation keys to be active in desktop layout only
Quentin,
I do have a laptop which was supposed to have a numpad. Nowadays,
it's not working.
So, with this new proposal, would I lose all the functionalities
related to object navigation?
If so, I'd imagine that the proposal for a hybrid layout is more
desirable, especially for me because this way I don't lose access to
all of this.
Cheers,
Marcio <https://tinyurl.com/TlkTM>
AKA /Starboy/
Sent from a galaxy far, far away.
--
Are you a Thunderbird user? Then join the Thunderbird mailing list
<https://groups.io/g/thunderbird/> to help and be helped with all
Thunderbird things - questions, features, add-ons and much more!
Em 08/05/2019 21:11, Quentin Christensen disse:
Following on from the Key assignments in NVDA thread, I have
created an issue on GitHub:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/9549
Basically, the desktop layout object navigation and review
cursor keys in NVDA are actually set to be active for ALL
keyboard layouts.
Laptop layout was designed for users without a number pad, but
there are users who use Laptop layout but still have a number
pad and wish to use this for navigation (Without NVDA running,
the number pad, with numlock off, replicates the navigation keys
of home, end, page up, page down, insert, delete and the arrow
keys and some laptops have a number pad but no separate
navigation keys).
My proposal then is to set the desktop object navigation /
review cursor keys to be active in desktop layout only.
If there is anyone who uses laptop layout but still wants to
access the desktop layout object navigation keys, please let us
know!
Kind regards
Quentin.
--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager
Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification
now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess
--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager
Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess


Sarah k Alawami
 

I also learned laptop mode on all desktops even with jaws, and my teachers hated it. Lol! But it was so so much easier for my poor hands.

Take care

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 10 May 2019, at 14:13, Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io wrote:

I agree I use laptop even on the desktop machine, this is because I only want to learn one keyboard layout.

On 09/05/2019 23:35, David Moore wrote:

Hi Quentin!

I wanted you to know that

I use the laptop commands for object navigation on my laptop, even though it has a Number pad.

I like the laptop commands better, because you can keep your hands right on the alpha-numeric keys. I love just being able to hold down the shift and NVDA keys, and just press the arrow keys to do object nav.

I would not be affected at all.

I just wanted you to know!

David Moore

                                                                Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

*From: *Quentin Christensen <mailto:quentin@...>
*Sent: *Thursday, May 9, 2019 5:52 PM
*To: *nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject: *Re: [nvda] Proposal to set NVDA's desktop layout object navigationkeys to be active in desktop layout only

Hi Marcio,

Do you use laptop layout or desktop layout currently?  Laptop layout already redefines all the object navigation keys to use other keys on the keyboard (the original idea was that laptop layout would provide full functionality on a keyboard without a number pad).  Currently what actually happens is that with NVDA in laptop keyboard layout, you have access to BOTH the laptop layout object navigation, AND the desktop (number pad) object navigation.

Our proposal is to set the number pad object navigation commands to work ONLY in Desktop layout (which is what most people expect anyway).

Would that break how you currently use NVDA?  Since you said your number pad isn't working, it sounds like it shouldn't make a difference, but maybe I didn't explain it well to begin with.

Quentin.

On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 8:37 PM Ralf Kefferpuetz <ralf.kefferpuetz@... <mailto:ralf.kefferpuetz@...>> wrote:

For a laptop with a numpad just set the layout to desktop and you’re
done.

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
*marcio via Groups.Io
*Sent:* Donnerstag, 9. Mai 2019 11:26
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Proposal to set NVDA's desktop layout object
navigation keys to be active in desktop layout only

Quentin,
I do have a laptop which was supposed to have a numpad. Nowadays,
it's not working.
So, with this new proposal, would I lose all the functionalities
related to object navigation?
If so, I'd imagine that the proposal for a hybrid layout is more
desirable, especially for me because this way I don't lose access to
all of this.


Cheers,
Marcio <https://tinyurl.com/TlkTM>

AKA /Starboy/

Sent from a galaxy far, far away.

--
Are you a Thunderbird user? Then join the Thunderbird mailing list
<https://groups.io/g/thunderbird/> to help and be helped with all
Thunderbird things - questions, features, add-ons and much more!

Em 08/05/2019 21:11, Quentin Christensen disse:

Following on from the Key assignments in NVDA thread, I have
created an issue on GitHub:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/9549

Basically, the desktop layout object navigation and review
cursor keys in NVDA are actually set to be active for ALL
keyboard layouts.

Laptop layout was designed for users without a number pad, but
there are users who use Laptop layout but still have a number
pad and wish to use this for navigation (Without NVDA running,
the number pad, with numlock off, replicates the navigation keys
of home, end, page up, page down, insert, delete and the arrow
keys and some laptops have a number pad but no separate
navigation keys).

My proposal then is to set the desktop object navigation /
review cursor keys to be active in desktop layout only.

If there is anyone who uses laptop layout but still wants to
access the desktop layout object navigation keys, please let us
know!

Kind regards

Quentin.

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification
now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess


--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess


Andre Fisher
 

Hi.

The best solution, for me, is to create a third keyboard layout, called hybrid, with the NUMPAD shortcuts assigned to review cursor and object navigation gestures. Then, the default could be laptop layout, which would remove all those duplicated shortcuts.

I'd use the hybrid solution, in my case, and I know that others would too.