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locked Moving Forward on the NVDA Group #adminnotice

 

Moving Forward on the NVDA Group

Back in April, an admin notice entitled, Important: List Conduct, was posted, followed very shortly after by, NVDA List: A Reboot, both of which outlined the refocusing of the NVDA group on its reason for being.  That reason is assisting with questions directly related to the configuration and use of NVDA itself.  By extension, that covers add-ons, working with synthesizers and Braille display setup, and asking about other programs strictly with regard as to whether they are accessible, or to what extent they are accessible, using NVDA.

The NVDA group has over a thousand members, and each and every message to the group is an imposition on the time of those members (including this one, for which we apologize to many).   Our hope had been that a request from group leadership for a refocusing would have been enough to achieve it, but that has not occurred.

We have tried gently redirecting non-NVDA-related content to the NVDA Chat Subgroup or other appropriate venues, and also tried being more directive in recent weeks hoping this might do the trick, but it has not.  So, we are now faced with doing what we had not wished to, and that is heavy-handed moderation, at least for the time being.

Before sending any message to the group, it is imperative that you ask yourself, “Is what I’m about to ask or offer directly related to controlling or using NVDA, or whether a specific program is accessible with NVDA?” If the answer is not a direct and simple, “Yes,” please do not send that message to the NVDA group.  If you do, it will be promptly locked and a canned message regarding off-topic messages added.  Instead, join the NVDA Chat Subgroup and send it there, or to another venue.

The lack of subscribers to the NVDA Chat Subgroup is indicative of one or both of the following:

1.        There is a lack of member interest in discussing non-NVDA-related content with other members of the group, since only members of a main group may join a subgroup.  This is perfectly fine, since membership is optional by design.

2.      There is a belief that not asking the above-mentioned question, and having an honest “yes” as the answer, should not be a deterrent to posting whatever one wishes on the NVDA group.  This is not fine, and will not become fine, either.


We do not have the capability to move topics between the main group and the chat subgroup, or we would have been doing so, and there is no indication that this function will be forthcoming from Groups.io.

So, if you wish to engage in non-NVDA-related discussions, and it appears that a great many do, you will need to join the chat subgroup or take them to another venue where they are on-topic.  Again, for your records, the NVDA Chat Subgroup addresses are:

In closing, we repeat the final paragraph of the administrative message regarding list conduct:

If you have read this far, thank you. I hope, that with your help, we can scale back the thread hijacking, the off-topic messages, and the many repetitive posts in order to make this place a more inviting community for everyone who wishes to learn about, or help out with NVDA. Thank you for being part of this list, and thank you for your contributions. I hope they will continue. If, after you read this far, you choose to leave the list, however, please do so, please don't announce it before you leave because I don't care that you are leaving, and please feel free to return if you wish at a later time.

Nimer Jaber

NVDA Group Owner

 

Brian Vogel

NVDA Group Moderator

Julie Melton <organsinger@...>
 

Hi, Brian.
I understand that you want to keep messages on topic, particularly on such a large and busy list as this one. What I cannot understand, however, is that when I posted a topic on the accessibility of a program, namely studio one, you basically said that the only thing that was on topic was finding resources to access this program through NVDA. I also asked about the extent of accessibility through NVDA, and this was pooh-poohed. Since this was my first post on the list ever, this felt rather personal and hurtful to me. Yes, I understand that you will want to be more heavy-handed on moderation. However, please continue to allow messages that are so clearly on topic. Thank you.
Julie


On Jun 27, 2019, at 2:50 PM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

Moving Forward on the NVDA Group

Back in April, an admin notice entitled, Important: List Conduct, was posted, followed very shortly after by, NVDA List: A Reboot, both of which outlined the refocusing of the NVDA group on its reason for being.  That reason is assisting with questions directly related to the configuration and use of NVDA itself.  By extension, that covers add-ons, working with synthesizers and Braille display setup, and asking about other programs strictly with regard as to whether they are accessible, or to what extent they are accessible, using NVDA.

The NVDA group has over a thousand members, and each and every message to the group is an imposition on the time of those members (including this one, for which we apologize to many).   Our hope had been that a request from group leadership for a refocusing would have been enough to achieve it, but that has not occurred.

We have tried gently redirecting non-NVDA-related content to the NVDA Chat Subgroup or other appropriate venues, and also tried being more directive in recent weeks hoping this might do the trick, but it has not.  So, we are now faced with doing what we had not wished to, and that is heavy-handed moderation, at least for the time being.

Before sending any message to the group, it is imperative that you ask yourself, “Is what I’m about to ask or offer directly related to controlling or using NVDA, or whether a specific program is accessible with NVDA?” If the answer is not a direct and simple, “Yes,” please do not send that message to the NVDA group.  If you do, it will be promptly locked and a canned message regarding off-topic messages added.  Instead, join the NVDA Chat Subgroup and send it there, or to another venue.

The lack of subscribers to the NVDA Chat Subgroup is indicative of one or both of the following:

1.        There is a lack of member interest in discussing non-NVDA-related content with other members of the group, since only members of a main group may join a subgroup.  This is perfectly fine, since membership is optional by design.

2.      There is a belief that not asking the above-mentioned question, and having an honest “yes” as the answer, should not be a deterrent to posting whatever one wishes on the NVDA group.  This is not fine, and will not become fine, either.


We do not have the capability to move topics between the main group and the chat subgroup, or we would have been doing so, and there is no indication that this function will be forthcoming from Groups.io.

So, if you wish to engage in non-NVDA-related discussions, and it appears that a great many do, you will need to join the chat subgroup or take them to another venue where they are on-topic.  Again, for your records, the NVDA Chat Subgroup addresses are:

In closing, we repeat the final paragraph of the administrative message regarding list conduct:

If you have read this far, thank you. I hope, that with your help, we can scale back the thread hijacking, the off-topic messages, and the many repetitive posts in order to make this place a more inviting community for everyone who wishes to learn about, or help out with NVDA. Thank you for being part of this list, and thank you for your contributions. I hope they will continue. If, after you read this far, you choose to leave the list, however, please do so, please don't announce it before you leave because I don't care that you are leaving, and please feel free to return if you wish at a later time.

Nimer Jaber

NVDA Group Owner

 

Brian Vogel

NVDA Group Moderator

Nimer Jaber
 

Hello Julie,

1. this is an example of what not to do when you have a disagreement with a moderator. Namely, responding to another message which is unrelated to your original thread, on list, for over 1000 members to read. If you have an issue, you have been provided with the address which will reach owner/moderator, and it is expected that you reach out and express your concerns.
2. Brian is not perfect, I am not either. We likely will make mistakes. We are, however, not robots, and are open to learning, growing, and changing. If a mistake was made in the response to a thread, it can only be corrected if an individual reaches out and points out the error.
3. If anyone has further comments on the moderation policies, please send an email to nvda+owner@nvda.groups.io

thanks.

On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 2:33 PM Julie Melton <organsinger@...> wrote:
Hi, Brian.
I understand that you want to keep messages on topic, particularly on such a large and busy list as this one. What I cannot understand, however, is that when I posted a topic on the accessibility of a program, namely studio one, you basically said that the only thing that was on topic was finding resources to access this program through NVDA. I also asked about the extent of accessibility through NVDA, and this was pooh-poohed. Since this was my first post on the list ever, this felt rather personal and hurtful to me. Yes, I understand that you will want to be more heavy-handed on moderation. However, please continue to allow messages that are so clearly on topic. Thank you.
Julie


On Jun 27, 2019, at 2:50 PM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

Moving Forward on the NVDA Group

Back in April, an admin notice entitled, Important: List Conduct, was posted, followed very shortly after by, NVDA List: A Reboot, both of which outlined the refocusing of the NVDA group on its reason for being.  That reason is assisting with questions directly related to the configuration and use of NVDA itself.  By extension, that covers add-ons, working with synthesizers and Braille display setup, and asking about other programs strictly with regard as to whether they are accessible, or to what extent they are accessible, using NVDA.

The NVDA group has over a thousand members, and each and every message to the group is an imposition on the time of those members (including this one, for which we apologize to many).   Our hope had been that a request from group leadership for a refocusing would have been enough to achieve it, but that has not occurred.

We have tried gently redirecting non-NVDA-related content to the NVDA Chat Subgroup or other appropriate venues, and also tried being more directive in recent weeks hoping this might do the trick, but it has not.  So, we are now faced with doing what we had not wished to, and that is heavy-handed moderation, at least for the time being.

Before sending any message to the group, it is imperative that you ask yourself, “Is what I’m about to ask or offer directly related to controlling or using NVDA, or whether a specific program is accessible with NVDA?” If the answer is not a direct and simple, “Yes,” please do not send that message to the NVDA group.  If you do, it will be promptly locked and a canned message regarding off-topic messages added.  Instead, join the NVDA Chat Subgroup and send it there, or to another venue.

The lack of subscribers to the NVDA Chat Subgroup is indicative of one or both of the following:

1.        There is a lack of member interest in discussing non-NVDA-related content with other members of the group, since only members of a main group may join a subgroup.  This is perfectly fine, since membership is optional by design.

2.      There is a belief that not asking the above-mentioned question, and having an honest “yes” as the answer, should not be a deterrent to posting whatever one wishes on the NVDA group.  This is not fine, and will not become fine, either.


We do not have the capability to move topics between the main group and the chat subgroup, or we would have been doing so, and there is no indication that this function will be forthcoming from Groups.io.

So, if you wish to engage in non-NVDA-related discussions, and it appears that a great many do, you will need to join the chat subgroup or take them to another venue where they are on-topic.  Again, for your records, the NVDA Chat Subgroup addresses are:

In closing, we repeat the final paragraph of the administrative message regarding list conduct:

If you have read this far, thank you. I hope, that with your help, we can scale back the thread hijacking, the off-topic messages, and the many repetitive posts in order to make this place a more inviting community for everyone who wishes to learn about, or help out with NVDA. Thank you for being part of this list, and thank you for your contributions. I hope they will continue. If, after you read this far, you choose to leave the list, however, please do so, please don't announce it before you leave because I don't care that you are leaving, and please feel free to return if you wish at a later time.

Nimer Jaber

NVDA Group Owner

 

Brian Vogel

NVDA Group Moderator



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