locked Lags With Notepad++
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Bob Cole
Hi, everyone.
I installed the latest version of Notepad++ (v7.7.1) today on my Windows 10 laptop. When I open the program, NVDA seems to read the contents of the screen for a brief period of time, then starts to lag, then goes completely silent.
In fact, NVDA seems to not work properly following the installation of the program. When I uninstall Notepad++ completely, everything goes back to normal.
Has anyone else experienced this? How can I figure out what is causing the problem?
Ambassador - Plexus Worldwide
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Hi, If I’m reading what’s new correctly, it’ll be resolved as part of NVDA 2019.2. Cheers, Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Cole
Hi, everyone.
I installed the latest version of Notepad++ (v7.7.1) today on my Windows 10 laptop. When I open the program, NVDA seems to read the contents of the screen for a brief period of time, then starts to lag, then goes completely silent. In fact, NVDA seems to not work properly following the installation of the program. When I uninstall Notepad++ completely, everything goes back to normal. Has anyone else experienced this? How can I figure out what is causing the problem? Ambassador - Plexus Worldwide
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hi.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
notepad++ version 7.7 x86 on windows xp, works perfectly with my favorite version of nvda, (nvda 2017.2). i am not sure about x64 of notepad++ or newer versions of nvda.
On 7/12/19, Bob Cole <rkcole72984@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi, everyone. --
By God, were I given all the seven heavens with all they contain in order that I may disobey God by depriving an ant from the husk of a grain of barley, I would not do it. imam ali
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Perry Simm
Hi!
On Friday, July 12, 2019 4:49 AM, zahra <nasrinkhaksar3@gmail.com> wrote: notepad++ version 7.7 x86 on windows xp, works perfectly with myGoodness! Please be aware that when you run XP and use the internet in any way, not only are you asking for trouble but actively begging for it. Whatever reasons you may be having, they are most likely invalid. Cheers Perry
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xp is the best operating system for me forever and i dont like newer
versions of windows, i hate windows ten and cant use another operating systems! On 7/12/19, Perry Simm via Groups.Io <perry.simm=protonmail.com@groups.io> wrote: Hi! -- By God, were I given all the seven heavens with all they contain in order that I may disobey God by depriving an ant from the husk of a grain of barley, I would not do it. imam ali
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Arlene
Hey I know you like xp. Yes it works for you. If you keep on using it you are asking for trouble. I had to leave win 7 for that reason! Now I;m on ten I don’t like change any better then some blind folk. But like it or not I had to change. Both my xp and 7 computers died.so I had no choice.
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: zahra
Sent: July 12, 2019 1:11 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Lags With Notepad++
xp is the best operating system for me forever and i dont like newer versions of windows, i hate windows ten and cant use another operating systems!
On 7/12/19, Perry Simm via Groups.Io <perry.simm@...> wrote: > Hi! > > On Friday, July 12, 2019 4:49 AM, zahra <nasrinkhaksar3@...> wrote: > >> notepad++ version 7.7 x86 on windows xp, works perfectly with my >> favorite version of nvda, (nvda 2017.2). > > Goodness! Please be aware that when you run XP and use the internet in any > way, not only are you asking for trouble but actively begging for it. > Whatever reasons you may be having, they are most likely invalid. > Cheers Perry > > > >
-- By God, were I given all the seven heavens with all they contain in order that I may disobey God by depriving an ant from the husk of a grain of barley, I would not do it. imam ali
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i never use ten, even if someone gives me milions of dollars!
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 7/12/19, Arlene <nedster66@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey I know you like xp. Yes it works for you. If you keep on using it you --
By God, were I given all the seven heavens with all they contain in order that I may disobey God by depriving an ant from the husk of a grain of barley, I would not do it. imam ali
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Ron Canazzi
Hi Zara,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
I also d not like change. I held onto my XP system for years after it expired. But when I eventually got up enough nerve to upgrade, I did it big time and I have no issues. If your issues are financial, that's another item entirely. But if it is simply a fear of the unknown, rest assured that Windows 10 is no big deal. I bet you would get used to it in a few days at worst.
On 7/12/2019 12:21 PM, zahra wrote:
i never use ten, even if someone gives me milions of dollars! --
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes. They ask: "How Happy are You?" I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
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Gene
This message discusses why you will have to upgrade
at some point and why I object to Windows 10 strongly. It also discusses
how my objection is related to screen-reader development. In my opinion,
Windows 10 makes screen-reader developers waste a significant amount of time and
resources constantly changing as Microsoft makes changes that affect
accessibility.
At some point, you will have little choice.
Increasingly fewer programs will be supported in XP. Your old browsers
will work with fewer and fewer sites. If you need something new like a
printer, no new printers or scanners will have XP compatible drivers. When
XP will become so unusable that you will be forced to make a change, I don't
know.
My main objection to Windows 10
is that there are two full upgrades per year. Microsoft has demonstrated
that it can't properly test two major upgrades and it is a major inconvenience
to upgrade, even if there ar no problems. Before Windows 10, there were
service packs spread out, perhaps one every two or three years, and in the case
of Windows 7, there was only one. I very much object to Microsoft imposing
this level of inconvenience and potential problems on users. And, from the
standpoint of NVDA, developers have to constantly make changes to accommodate
the constant and unending changes in Windows 10 that affect accessibility.
Lee releases one release after another of the Windows Essential app, for
example.
Gene
----- Original Message
-----
I also d not like change. I held onto my XP system for years after it expired. But when I eventually got up enough nerve to upgrade, I did it big time and I have no issues. If your issues are financial, that's another item entirely. But if it is simply a fear of the unknown, rest assured that Windows 10 is no big deal. I bet you would get used to it in a few days at worst. On 7/12/2019 12:21 PM, zahra wrote: > i never use ten, even if someone gives me milions of dollars! > > On 7/12/19, Arlene <nedster66@...> wrote: >> Hey I know you like xp. Yes it works for you. If you keep on using it you >> are asking for trouble. I had to leave win 7 for that reason! Now I;m on ten >> I don’t like change any better then some blind folk. But like it or not I >> had to change. Both my xp and 7 computers died.so I had no choice. >> >> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >> >> From: zahra >> Sent: July 12, 2019 1:11 AM >> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io >> Subject: Re: [nvda] Lags With Notepad++ >> >> xp is the best operating system for me forever and i dont like newer >> versions of windows, i hate windows ten and cant use another operating >> systems! >> >> On 7/12/19, Perry Simm via Groups.Io >> <perry.simm@...> wrote: >>> Hi! >>> >>> On Friday, July 12, 2019 4:49 AM, zahra <nasrinkhaksar3@...> wrote: >>> >>>> notepad++ version 7.7 x86 on windows xp, works perfectly with my >>>> favorite version of nvda, (nvda 2017.2). >>> Goodness! Please be aware that when you run XP and use the internet in >>> any >>> way, not only are you asking for trouble but actively begging for it. >>> Whatever reasons you may be having, they are most likely invalid. >>> Cheers Perry >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> By God, >> were I given all the seven heavens >> with all they contain >> in order that >> I may disobey God >> by depriving an ant >> from the husk of a grain of barley, >> I would not do it. >> imam ali >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > -- They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes. They ask: "How Happy are You?" I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
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Hi, I release my add-on periodically not only due to changes in Windows 10 itself, but sometimes due to apps. I sometimes end up writing a workaround, only to revert it after I and others submit a feedback and Microsoft fixes it (the most recent case being changes to Settings app in next year’s update that had to be reverted when my own workaround wasn’t needed anymore). Cheers, Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2019 11:10 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Lags With Notepad++
This message discusses why you will have to upgrade at some point and why I object to Windows 10 strongly. It also discusses how my objection is related to screen-reader development. In my opinion, Windows 10 makes screen-reader developers waste a significant amount of time and resources constantly changing as Microsoft makes changes that affect accessibility.
At some point, you will have little choice. Increasingly fewer programs will be supported in XP. Your old browsers will work with fewer and fewer sites. If you need something new like a printer, no new printers or scanners will have XP compatible drivers. When XP will become so unusable that you will be forced to make a change, I don't know.
My main objection to Windows 10 is that there are two full upgrades per year. Microsoft has demonstrated that it can't properly test two major upgrades and it is a major inconvenience to upgrade, even if there ar no problems. Before Windows 10, there were service packs spread out, perhaps one every two or three years, and in the case of Windows 7, there was only one. I very much object to Microsoft imposing this level of inconvenience and potential problems on users. And, from the standpoint of NVDA, developers have to constantly make changes to accommodate the constant and unending changes in Windows 10 that affect accessibility. Lee releases one release after another of the Windows Essential app, for example.
Gene ----- Original Message -----
Hi Zara,
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Gene
but are the changes Microsoft makes ones that could
have been avoided with more planning or development earlier?
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Hi, I release my add-on periodically not only due to changes in Windows 10 itself, but sometimes due to apps. I sometimes end up writing a workaround, only to revert it after I and others submit a feedback and Microsoft fixes it (the most recent case being changes to Settings app in next year’s update that had to be reverted when my own workaround wasn’t needed anymore). Cheers, Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Gene
This message discusses why you will have to upgrade at some point and why I object to Windows 10 strongly. It also discusses how my objection is related to screen-reader development. In my opinion, Windows 10 makes screen-reader developers waste a significant amount of time and resources constantly changing as Microsoft makes changes that affect accessibility.
At some point, you will have little choice. Increasingly fewer programs will be supported in XP. Your old browsers will work with fewer and fewer sites. If you need something new like a printer, no new printers or scanners will have XP compatible drivers. When XP will become so unusable that you will be forced to make a change, I don't know.
My main objection to Windows 10 is that there are two full upgrades per year. Microsoft has demonstrated that it can't properly test two major upgrades and it is a major inconvenience to upgrade, even if there ar no problems. Before Windows 10, there were service packs spread out, perhaps one every two or three years, and in the case of Windows 7, there was only one. I very much object to Microsoft imposing this level of inconvenience and potential problems on users. And, from the standpoint of NVDA, developers have to constantly make changes to accommodate the constant and unending changes in Windows 10 that affect accessibility. Lee releases one release after another of the Windows Essential app, for example.
Gene ----- Original Message -----
Hi Zara,
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Hi, Yes and no, mostly dealing with UI accessibility (not UI Automation) assumptions. Yes, provided that Microsoft do ask employees with disabilities to test UI changes with assistive technologies, or write tests to simulate it; no, because of intraorganizational and intercultural communication issues- I bring up intercultural because disability is a culture, and talking to those outside require communication at the level of cultures. To elaborate further: most workarounds I’ve cataloged over the past five years has to do with incomplete implementations, which suggests the level of collaboration between accessibility team (including Narrator developers) and other Microsoft teams need to be enhanced. The biggest debacle in this space (which also surprised Microsoft people) was “invalid entry” announcement from NVDA, caused by programming issues from Microsoft side (I and other Insiders had to deal with that for the better part of 2016). Currently the newly released Windows Terminal app for Windows 10 cannot be used by screen reader users (including Narrator users) due to lack of UI Automation implementation from Microsoft (I know I’m saying this for the umpteenth time), which Microsoft did acknowledge and is on the roadmap for future releases. At least Microsoft is highlighting public-facing accessibility changes and steps taken to make sure screen reader users are treated with respect, but there are things that may need to be implemented (some of them I imagine painful) including unit tests and other cultural changes that will make sure at least Narrator can deal with user interface elements. I know I keep mentioning Narrator as a gold standard on Windows 10, because Narrator is an example of an app that strives to conform to UI Automation and Windows 10 changes, with other screen readers following shortly after (usually NVDA is one of the first third-party screen readers to do so mostly due to my add-on). For this reason, I test UI changes with Narrator and NVDA to make sure both screen readers can stay on the same page in regards to the user interface, and if Narrator fails, that’s the moment I press Windows+F to submit a feedback or two about it because a problem like that will affect everyone. Cheers, Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2019 11:20 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Lags With Notepad++
but are the changes Microsoft makes ones that could have been avoided with more planning or development earlier?
Gene ----- Original Message -----
Hi, I release my add-on periodically not only due to changes in Windows 10 itself, but sometimes due to apps. I sometimes end up writing a workaround, only to revert it after I and others submit a feedback and Microsoft fixes it (the most recent case being changes to Settings app in next year’s update that had to be reverted when my own workaround wasn’t needed anymore). Cheers, Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
This message discusses why you will have to upgrade at some point and why I object to Windows 10 strongly. It also discusses how my objection is related to screen-reader development. In my opinion, Windows 10 makes screen-reader developers waste a significant amount of time and resources constantly changing as Microsoft makes changes that affect accessibility.
At some point, you will have little choice. Increasingly fewer programs will be supported in XP. Your old browsers will work with fewer and fewer sites. If you need something new like a printer, no new printers or scanners will have XP compatible drivers. When XP will become so unusable that you will be forced to make a change, I don't know.
My main objection to Windows 10 is that there are two full upgrades per year. Microsoft has demonstrated that it can't properly test two major upgrades and it is a major inconvenience to upgrade, even if there ar no problems. Before Windows 10, there were service packs spread out, perhaps one every two or three years, and in the case of Windows 7, there was only one. I very much object to Microsoft imposing this level of inconvenience and potential problems on users. And, from the standpoint of NVDA, developers have to constantly make changes to accommodate the constant and unending changes in Windows 10 that affect accessibility. Lee releases one release after another of the Windows Essential app, for example.
Gene ----- Original Message -----
Hi Zara,
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Gene
Interesting. I hope things improve. it
sounds as though they may.
It sounds as though Narrator may be becoming more
important to know than it used to be to fill the gap where NVDA doesn't do
something well yet.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Hi, Yes and no, mostly dealing with UI accessibility (not UI Automation) assumptions. Yes, provided that Microsoft do ask employees with disabilities to test UI changes with assistive technologies, or write tests to simulate it; no, because of intraorganizational and intercultural communication issues- I bring up intercultural because disability is a culture, and talking to those outside require communication at the level of cultures. To elaborate further: most workarounds I’ve cataloged over the past five years has to do with incomplete implementations, which suggests the level of collaboration between accessibility team (including Narrator developers) and other Microsoft teams need to be enhanced. The biggest debacle in this space (which also surprised Microsoft people) was “invalid entry” announcement from NVDA, caused by programming issues from Microsoft side (I and other Insiders had to deal with that for the better part of 2016). Currently the newly released Windows Terminal app for Windows 10 cannot be used by screen reader users (including Narrator users) due to lack of UI Automation implementation from Microsoft (I know I’m saying this for the umpteenth time), which Microsoft did acknowledge and is on the roadmap for future releases. At least Microsoft is highlighting public-facing accessibility changes and steps taken to make sure screen reader users are treated with respect, but there are things that may need to be implemented (some of them I imagine painful) including unit tests and other cultural changes that will make sure at least Narrator can deal with user interface elements. I know I keep mentioning Narrator as a gold standard on Windows 10, because Narrator is an example of an app that strives to conform to UI Automation and Windows 10 changes, with other screen readers following shortly after (usually NVDA is one of the first third-party screen readers to do so mostly due to my add-on). For this reason, I test UI changes with Narrator and NVDA to make sure both screen readers can stay on the same page in regards to the user interface, and if Narrator fails, that’s the moment I press Windows+F to submit a feedback or two about it because a problem like that will affect everyone. Cheers, Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Gene
but are the changes Microsoft makes ones that could have been avoided with more planning or development earlier?
Gene ----- Original Message -----
Hi, I release my add-on periodically not only due to changes in Windows 10 itself, but sometimes due to apps. I sometimes end up writing a workaround, only to revert it after I and others submit a feedback and Microsoft fixes it (the most recent case being changes to Settings app in next year’s update that had to be reverted when my own workaround wasn’t needed anymore). Cheers, Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Gene
This message discusses why you will have to upgrade at some point and why I object to Windows 10 strongly. It also discusses how my objection is related to screen-reader development. In my opinion, Windows 10 makes screen-reader developers waste a significant amount of time and resources constantly changing as Microsoft makes changes that affect accessibility.
At some point, you will have little choice. Increasingly fewer programs will be supported in XP. Your old browsers will work with fewer and fewer sites. If you need something new like a printer, no new printers or scanners will have XP compatible drivers. When XP will become so unusable that you will be forced to make a change, I don't know.
My main objection to Windows 10 is that there are two full upgrades per year. Microsoft has demonstrated that it can't properly test two major upgrades and it is a major inconvenience to upgrade, even if there ar no problems. Before Windows 10, there were service packs spread out, perhaps one every two or three years, and in the case of Windows 7, there was only one. I very much object to Microsoft imposing this level of inconvenience and potential problems on users. And, from the standpoint of NVDA, developers have to constantly make changes to accommodate the constant and unending changes in Windows 10 that affect accessibility. Lee releases one release after another of the Windows Essential app, for example.
Gene ----- Original Message -----
Hi Zara,
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hi gene.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
i even tried firefox 3.5 and could easily open and use static web pages and even my gmail! i could easily send email and emails which i recieved. i did not test printers, but if i buy one printer some day, i need to find a compatible version with my laptop. everythings work perfectly for me except skype, and i really need it! you mentioned only some of the disadvantages of windows ten and its crisis and problems are so extended that i am sure that never use it in my life! God bless you and his especial mercy i pray for you!
On 7/12/19, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
This message discusses why you will have to upgrade at some point and why I --
By God, were I given all the seven heavens with all they contain in order that I may disobey God by depriving an ant from the husk of a grain of barley, I would not do it. imam ali
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Ron Canazzi
Hi Gene,
It's kind of funny how you at times viciously attack people who are uncomfortable with use of the ribbon, but are so ambivalent--some say---critical of those who wish to upgrade to Windows 10. Unlike many people, I do not have any of the major issues when using Windows 10. I know there were issues with 1803, but I never experienced them. Getting used to the interface of Windows 10 is much easier than the Windows 8 original version which had only the use of the grid instead of the somewhat standard search/start menu system. Use of the ribbons is much more of an issue--particularly if you use a lot of Word/Excel/Access features. Yet, I muddle through and am able to get by--however so clumsily. By comparison, the interface of Windows 10 for normal operation is a cake walk when compared to going into what would be in the old pre-ribbon days sub menus of sub menus. These are facts--experienced not only by blind people but also by sighted people as well. This is so much so that there are ribbon disabler programs coming up the ying yan which are obviously not intended solely for the blind. On 7/12/2019 2:10 PM, Gene wrote:
-- They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes. They ask: "How Happy are You?" I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
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Arlene
Same here. I’m just staggering around on these ribbens like a drunk. By the way, what is note pad plus plus?
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: July 12, 2019 9:22 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Lags With Notepad++
Hi Gene, On 7/12/2019 2:10 PM, Gene wrote:
-- They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes. They ask: "How Happy are You?" I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
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Ron Canazzi
Hi Arlene,
Notepad Plus Plus is a substitute for Windows Notepad. It is a text editor with a lot of features for writing code, writing HTML pages, and dealing with large text files of various types. On 7/13/2019 12:36 AM, Arlene wrote:
-- They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes. They ask: "How Happy are You?" I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
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Jaffar Sidek <jaffar.sidek10@...>
Notepad++ is more than a substitute for Windows notepad. It is a
more advanced version of a text editor, you might say. It is, in
some ways, am IDE as well, since it's many plugins allow for
IDE-like features such as intellisense. Add these features to the
ones already mentioned and you will find a very soffisticated
editor on your hands. Cheers! On 7/13/2019 12:52 PM, Ron Canazzi
wrote:
Hi Arlene, -- Pictures paint a thousand words; Melodies paint a thousand dreams; Music paints a thousand worlds; Movies light up fantasy screens.
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Gene
Show me in the archives where I viciously attack
anyone. I do not. but I strongly object to people who make
unqualified statements such as ribbons are terrible, ribbons are very hard to
use, etc. That's because I know, from experience, that ribbons only
require an understanding of how they are laid out but that, in essence, they are
similar to menus except that you tab through a ribbon instead of down arrowing
or you shift tab instead of up arrowing. There are other things to learn
but that is the essence of ribbons compared to menus. My strong response,
and I don't attack people personally, I strongly disagree with what and how they
say what they say about ribbons, is because I strongly object to people being
discouraged from learning by wildly overgeneralized statements about a
completely accessible interface that a lot of people are afraid of because they
haven't received proper instruction and because they have heard so many negative
comments about from others who haven't received proper instruction. And
once they successfully use ribbons, they may become more confident computer
users, more willing to try new things, because they see how the only thing they
had to fear in this case was fear itself, as was famously said.
If I were talking with someone
off list, I wouldn't write in the same strong way about criticism of ribbons
because the comments of the person wouldn't be on a list and wouldn't possibly
be discouraging many people from learning. If you can find instances where
I have viciously attacked people, I'll apologize. And because I have strong
feelings about this, I created a tutorial teaching use of ribbons which I have
shared here more than once when the topic has come up,.
What does Windows 10- have to do with any of
this? I don't make up widespread stories about full upgrades that have
caused serious problems for some users, to the extent that Microsoft stopped
releasing an update perhaps about a year ago, for a month or more of further
corrections and testing. And there have been two such bad upgrades in the
last eighteen months. I don't think the last one was nearly as bad but
Microsoft has a lot of confidence to regain among users. While the number
of people asking about problems after a Windows 10 upgrade is not large, even
so, there are enough to indicate that problems occur more often than in earlier
versions of Windows, where service packs were released far more infrequently and
people didn't have to spend perhaps forty-five minutes, perhaps an hour,
upgrading Windows twice a year.
What does any of this have to do with strongly
responding to someone who once, or repeatedly states how terrible ribbons are,
as though it is a matter of fact?
And I am not critical of people who upgrade to
Windows 10. I simply think that, with what I have discussed, the rush to
upgrade instead of waiting to near the end of support is questionable for people
who don't want to use specific new features or apps in Windows 10 and who want
as reliable and stable an operating system as possible. If people are
curious or experimenters or want new features, fine. If someone is buying
a new computer, that will come with Windows 10. I am not personally
criticial on a personal level. But I think that users should seriously
consider the advisability of upgrading a system they currently own far in
advance of support ending for Windows 7. and it also depends on how
satisfied they are with Windows 8 as well, where support will continue
longer. It is my impression that Windows 10 is harder for
screen-reader developers to stay on top of, thus taking resources that would
have been used for other things before Windows 10 and diverting them into
keeping things as accessible as possible, thus possibly slowing work on other
projects that would benefit blind computer users.
I have never objected to the Windows 10 interface
nor objected to people upgrading on those grounds. I haven't used Windows
10. As far as I can tell, not having direct experience of using it, the
interface itself is similar to Windows 7. As far as I can tell, working
with apps, not applications, is somewhat different but the actual interface of
Windows is similar and if applications, not apps are used, my impression is that
there isn't much learning to do.
Gene
----- Original Message
-----
It's kind of funny how you at times viciously attack people who are uncomfortable with use of the ribbon, but are so ambivalent--some say---critical of those who wish to upgrade to Windows 10. Unlike many people, I do not have any of the major issues when using Windows 10. I know there were issues with 1803, but I never experienced them. Getting used to the interface of Windows 10 is much easier than the Windows 8 original version which had only the use of the grid instead of the somewhat standard search/start menu system. Use of the ribbons is much more of an issue--particularly if you use a lot of Word/Excel/Access features. Yet, I muddle through and am able to get by--however so clumsily. By comparison, the interface of Windows 10 for normal operation is a cake walk when compared to going into what would be in the old pre-ribbon days sub menus of sub menus. These are facts--experienced not only by blind people but also by sighted people as well. This is so much so that there are ribbon disabler programs coming up the ying yan which are obviously not intended solely for the blind. On 7/12/2019 2:10 PM, Gene wrote:
-- They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes. They ask: "How Happy are You?" I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
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Gene
I sent out my tutorial concerning ribbons two or
three weeks ago. Did you get it? Have you worked with
it?
I didn't say that everyone would just pick up
ribbons immediately, but with good instruction, people, for the most part,
should not have much
difficulty learning ribbons. They may like
the way things were organized better using menus, but they should find ribbons
very usable.
I'll send the tutorial again under my signature in
this message.
If you have questions or problems, please ask on
the chat list since this is off topic for the main list.
And since this is off topic for the main list, I
won't contribute further to the ribbon discussion here. But I'm sending
the tutorial here because the chat list doesn't have ten percent of the users on
the main list, its current membership being somewhere around eighty-two
members.
Gene
I'll provide a brief tutorial based on what I wrote years
ago of how to work with ribbons.
I've added a little to it here.
I don't know how the organization of Windows has changed
in Windows 10 but this description should allow you to look through the Windows
ribbons, or any other ribbons, and see how things are organized.
First, I'll discuss a structure found in later versions of
Windows that you need to know about-- the split button.
One thing you will see as you look around ribbons and in other places in Windows are split buttons. A split button often allows you to see more options than just the default action. Let's take an example. Let's say you come across a split button that says shut down Windows. If you press enter on that button, Windows will shut down. That is the default action. Split buttons often show more options if you either right arrow while on the button or down arrow. As an example, if you are on the shut down split button, you can right arrow and a list of options will open. the items in the list include sleep, hibernate, restart, and others. You up or down arrow through the list or use the short cut commands you hear announced as you move through the list. the letter shortcuts often take actions without pressing enter so be careful when using them, just as you are in menus. So, let's review. You find a split button that says
shut down. If you press enter, the computer will shut down. If you right
arrow, other options may be displayed. Or if you down arrow, other options
may be displayed. A split button won't work with both methods. One
method, either right arrowing or down arrowing will do so if it can be done with
the button. Try both methods if you don't know which one might work.
If you are on a tool bar which extends across the screen from left to right,
down arrowing will open additional options. If you think about this, it
makes sense. If you are in a menu, down arrowing will move you to the next
item in the menu. So you right arrow on the split button to cause it to
display more options. In a tool bar that extends across the screen from
left to right, right arrowing will move you to the next item in the tool
bar. So you down arrow when on the split button to cause it to display
more options. But some tool bars run up and down the screen, as menus
do. And at times, you may not be sure which way a structure extends on
screen. So, as I said, if you are not sure or don't know, try both methods
of causing the split button to display more options. Often, one of them
will work. If you open the options a split button offers and don't want to work
with them, arrow in the opposite direction to move out of them. For
example, if you right arrowed to open more options, left arrow.
Some split buttons don't do anything when you right arrow or down arrow. In that case, open them with alt down arrow. Then tab through the additional options. I've almost never worked in this way with split buttons but if you want to close a split button, try alt up arrow if you've used alt down arrow to open it. Now, to ribbons themselves.
Regarding ribbons, much of the complaining about them is
not warranted if you understand how they work and how to use short cut commands
effectively and efficiently. and I would strongly recommend against using
the JAWS virtual menus, no matter what the JAWS training material says about
ribbons being difficult to use. the training material is just plain wrong
and using virtual menus, you will be unnecessarily dependent on one
screen-reader. There are other disadvantages to using them which I won't
go into here.
Try looking at ribbons and doing what is described below
in wordpad. Everyone with Windows 7 has Wordpad on their machine.
Wordpad provides a good environment to look at and practice working with
ribbons.
The essence of working with ribbons is this:
Press alt to move to the upper ribbon. You will probably be on an item that says home tab. Items on the upper ribbon are announced as tabs such as home tab, view tab, etc. To see what ribbons are available, right or left arrow repeatedly to move through the ribbons. Move in one direction to move through all of them, just as you would to move through all the menus. For this demonstration, just so we are all doing the same
thing, move with the right arrow. When you get back to where you started, you
can keep right arrowing to move through the items again, if you wish. You
can move through all the items as many times as you want. Or you can move with
the left arrow whenever you want to move in the opposite direction.
Stop on view. Then start tabbing. You will
move through all items in what is called the lower ribbon that are in the view
ribbon.
In other words you tab to see the items in a ribbon once
you move to it. Tab moves you forward through the items, shift tab moves
you backword.
So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow. Many items in the lower ribbon are buttons. Use
either the space bar or enter to activate the button. You may find a button that
opens a menu and if you press enter or the space bar, you will then be in a
menu.
Each time you move to an item, you will hear the short cut
command to work with that item.
But JAWS has a bug and you often won't. To hear the short cut, use the command JAWS key tab. If you are using the default JAWS key, it is either insert. Try tabbing to an item in a Wordpad ribbon and using the
command insert tab. You will hear some extraneous information. The
last thing you will hear is the short cut sequence. You can repeat the
information by repeating the command as often as you want.
Let's look at an item which is usually called the
application menu. Return to the main program window in wordpad by closing
the ribbons. You can either press escape repeatedly, if necessary, or you
can press alt once. Now, open the ribbons again with alt.
Start right arrowing until you get to the application menu. You will hear application menu and then something like button drop down grid. Never mind drop down grid. It's a description you don't have to worry about. The important things are that you are on a button and at the application menu. Press enter or the space bar to activate the button. Activating the button opens the menu. Start down arrowing. you will hear all the short cut commands necessary to open an item or take an action. When you got to the menu item, you heard alt f. When you open the menu and move through it, you will hear all the letters announced. for example, if you down arrow to save as, you will hear alt f a. that means that, when you are in the main program window, you open the menu as you always did, alt f, then type a. Alt f opens the menau and a then opens save as. Ribbon programs have one menu and you should look through it. Many important and common commands and interfaces such as options may be there. By options, I mean the kind of options interface you used to find in the tools menu. Now the we have seen the menu, let's look at the ribbons
structure some more.
To review, and add more information, as you have seen, you can move to the ribbon interface with alt. Then right and left arrow, just as you would move from menu to menu. You can also move to a ribbon using alt and a letter. So, alt h takes you to the home ribbon. Alt v takes you to the view ribbon, etc. Once you are on the ribbon you want to work with, tab to move forward through the items in a ribbon. Shift tab to move back through the items. So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow. Ribbons are divided into categories which you will hear announced as you tab. for example, in an e-mail program, a ribbon may have a category named respond. You may hear this announced as respond tool bar. As you tab, you will hear commands such as reply and forward in the respond category. When you hear a category announced, don't tab until you hear everything spoken. You will miss the first command in the category if you do. I'm talking about working with an unfamiliar ribbon. there are often many more commands and items in a ribbon than in a menu. So memorize command sequences for items you know you will use regularly. As I said, there are different categories in ribbons to help organize items. You can quickly jump from category to category in a ribbon to help you see if there is a category you want to look through. Move to a ribbon in Wordpad. For example, alt h for hhome or alt v for view. Then repeatedly issue the command control right arrow to move forward from category to category and control left arrow to move back. When you get to a category you want to hear the items in, start tabbing. Of course, you can shift tab to move back. Open a ribbon in Wordpad and tab through it to see how it
is organized by moving through it.
Then use control right arrow to move by category and tab to see what is in a category. Commands such as control o, control n, control s, control
r, etc. are mostly retained in programs that use ribbons, though you won't hear them announced. If you don't already know them, you'll have to find them in ways such as by looking at a list of keyboard commands for the program. Such lists are often available in the help for the program. If you already know the commands from having used an older version of the program, most or perhaps even all of the commands you know will work.
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