Can I change NVDA key commands
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Joseph Norton
Hi:
I’m switching back and forth between JAWS and NVDA for certain things, and, I frequently use the wrong exit command.
I notice NVDA+f4 isn’t mapped to anything, so, can I map NVDA+f4 to exit NVDA?
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Ralf Kefferpuetz
Hello, Yes, you can, nvda-n, preferences, input gestures. There search for “quit” and change it to what you prefer.
Cheers, Ralf
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joseph Norton
Sent: Sonntag, 21. Juli 2019 15:27 To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] Can I change NVDA key commands
Hi:
I’m switching back and forth between JAWS and NVDA for certain things, and, I frequently use the wrong exit command.
I notice NVDA+f4 isn’t mapped to anything, so, can I map NVDA+f4 to exit NVDA?
Thanks! |
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Joseph Norton
Hi:
Thanks much for that.
I saw “input gestures” on the menu, but, thought it only applied to touch gestures, so didn’t try it.
Anyway, works like a top.
Thanks again!
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: Ralf Kefferpuetz
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 9:46 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Can I change NVDA key commands
Hello, Yes, you can, nvda-n, preferences, input gestures. There search for “quit” and change it to what you prefer.
Cheers, Ralf
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joseph Norton
Hi:
I’m switching back and forth between JAWS and NVDA for certain things, and, I frequently use the wrong exit command.
I notice NVDA+f4 isn’t mapped to anything, so, can I map NVDA+f4 to exit NVDA?
Thanks!
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On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 11:32 AM, Joseph Norton wrote:
I saw “input gestures” on the menu, but, thought it only applied to touch gestures, so didn’t try it.I've actually complained on this list (but I don't think on github) about this very unfortunate choice of terminology. Your presumption that gestures applies to touch actions is almost universal across the UI world. Keyboard shortcuts are not gestures and never the twain shall meet. There are often separate keyboard shortcuts and touch gestures to do the same thing which clearly indicates their separation as entities. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362 The color of truth is grey. ~ André Gide
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Gene
Clearly, something like keyboard and gestures help should be the
title. Input help, while technically correct and covering any possible
means of input is too technical to give users who are not technically
knowledgeable confidence that they know what is being described.
Gene ----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can I change NVDA key commands On
Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 11:32 AM, Joseph Norton wrote: I saw “input gestures” on the menu, but, thought it only applied to touch gestures, so didn’t try it.I've actually complained on this list (but I don't think on github) about this very unfortunate choice of terminology. Your presumption that gestures applies to touch actions is almost universal across the UI world. Keyboard shortcuts are not gestures and never the twain shall meet. There are often separate keyboard shortcuts and touch gestures to do the same thing which clearly indicates their separation as entities. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362 The color of truth is grey. ~ André Gide
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Hi, I think part of the reason for going that route is our (NVDA developers’) assumption that gestures can encompass input methods such as keyboards, touch, braille, and so many possibilities. JAWS has issues with this too, in that the headquarters for configuring commands is called “keyboard manager” when in fact it can be used to assign braille and touchscreen shortcuts. I think I saw a GitHub issue that asks NV Access to change this to something more meaningful – if I do find it and if there is justification for it, I’ll ask NV Access people to take a look at it again. If NVDA developers agree that it should be changed, it will be done for a future release (not now due to more important road paving operations taking place at the moment). Cheers, Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 11:32 AM, Joseph Norton wrote:
I've actually complained on this list (but I don't think on github) about this very unfortunate choice of terminology. Your presumption that gestures applies to touch actions is almost universal across the UI world. Keyboard shortcuts are not gestures and never the twain shall meet. Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362 The color of truth is grey. ~ André Gide
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Hi, Other screen readers exhibit the same problem: JAWS calls it “keyboard help”, while Narrator calls it “input learning”. VoiceOver on iOS just calls it “help”, which is more understandable in that it originally supported touch gestures. In the old versions of NVDA (prior to 2011.1), NVDA itself used “keyboard help”, but in 2011.1, it was changed to what it is today to acknowledge the fact that input comes from all sorts of places (back then, they were keyboards and braille displays). Cheers, Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 10:18 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Can I change NVDA key commands
Clearly, something like keyboard and gestures help should be the title. Input help, while technically correct and covering any possible means of input is too technical to give users who are not technically knowledgeable confidence that they know what is being described.
Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian Vogel Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] Can I change NVDA key commands
On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 11:32 AM, Joseph Norton wrote:
I've actually complained on this list (but I don't think on github) about this very unfortunate choice of terminology. Your presumption that gestures applies to touch actions is almost universal across the UI world. Keyboard shortcuts are not gestures and never the twain shall meet. Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362 The color of truth is grey. ~ André Gide
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Gene
That is an invalid assumption. Gestures means something you do to
indicate something or something you do on a screen. When have the
developers ever once, before the advent of the touch screen, heard or seen
anyone refer to a gesture when describing a keystroke. Pressing a key is
moving a mechanical switch, not a gesture and it still isn’t refered to as
one. .
Developers aren’t professional writers generally, they are
developers. Those who really know language and who pay close attention to
useage and meaning should be given good attention when such things are brought
up. I was an English major before unexpectedly leaving college. And
I’ve read enough about philosophy to be very aware of the importance of defining
terms. Who do the developers consult when making such a decission based on
a suggestion or complaint? I’m not assuming they don’t consult such people
but it is a question worth getting an answer to.
Brian, from my past observation, is another person who pays careful
attention to precise use of language.
Gene ----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 12:20 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can I change NVDA key commands Hi, I think part of the reason for going that route is our (NVDA developers’) assumption that gestures can encompass input methods such as keyboards, touch, braille, and so many possibilities. JAWS has issues with this too, in that the headquarters for configuring commands is called “keyboard manager” when in fact it can be used to assign braille and touchscreen shortcuts. I think I saw a GitHub issue that asks NV Access to change this to something more meaningful – if I do find it and if there is justification for it, I’ll ask NV Access people to take a look at it again. If NVDA developers agree that it should be changed, it will be done for a future release (not now due to more important road paving operations taking place at the moment). Cheers, Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 11:32 AM, Joseph Norton wrote:
I've actually complained on this list (but I don't think on
github) about this very unfortunate choice of terminology. Your
presumption that gestures applies to touch actions is almost universal across
the UI world. Keyboard shortcuts are not gestures and never the twain
shall meet. Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362 The color of truth is grey. ~ André Gide
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Being a tech geek from way back, I can categorically state that this is yet another instance where "tech brevity" is being valued over end user understanding. It happens again and again and again.
"Input contols - keyboard commands, touch gestures, etc." as a descriptive in these programs, which is a simple thing to do, makes the intention entirely clear. Microsoft was just as guilty of this with the inane "toast" notifications. No one would instantly recognize that these are notifications that slide in at the lower right hand side of the screen by default. "Slide-in" notifications at least makes it clear what the behavior is, whether you can see it or not, and allows both the sighted and the blind to be "on the same page" about what's being looked out for. It just drives me insane that the "user ergonomics" of software is still so little considered. I am only too well aware that at the setting by setting level this becomes an impossible nightmare for any truly complex piece of software, but at the broad categories and first level of subdivision of those it should be pretty simple. I'd have the previously mentioned "Input Controls" fully articulated label then under that it would be broken into Keyboard Commands, Touch Gestures, Other [e.g. Pen or something that hasn't even been invented yet]. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362 The color of truth is grey. ~ André Gide
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Hi, Hmmm, I see. How about renaming it to something to the effect of, “Manage commands”? That may allow the original intent to be kept while making it more user friendly. It may also allow translators to translate this concept more easily. The obvious downside is extensive edits to tutorials, websites, training materials, user guide and such, but I don’t consider this a downside – rather, an opportunity to change it based on more user feedback. Cheers, Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Being a tech geek from way back, I can categorically state that this is yet another instance where "tech brevity" is being valued over end user understanding. It happens again and again and again. Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362 The color of truth is grey. ~ André Gide
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Joseph,
It makes a lot more sense than what's there now. That being said, one of my points is that there are times when brevity serves an important purpose and others where it obscures. In structures meant to guide an end user (or even a tech that probably doesn't touch this stuff with any frequency) somewhere it's better to err on the side of "length that guides" rather than economy of words when said economy obscures. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362 The color of truth is grey. ~ André Gide
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Hi, I see. Quentin, any thoughts? I’m willing to work on this for 2019.3 provided that we get more user feedback. Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Joseph, Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362 The color of truth is grey. ~ André Gide
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Gene
Manage commands means that you can define or
redefine or map commands by invoking the NVDA 1 command. Why not just call
it what it is, keyboard and gestures help. Or something else, if there is
as good alternative descriptive language but I can think of no other
comprehensive and accurate way to say this that will be 8understandable to the
gggeneral user.
Gene ----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can I change NVDA key commands Hi, Hmmm, I see. How about renaming it to something to the effect of, “Manage commands”? That may allow the original intent to be kept while making it more user friendly. It may also allow translators to translate this concept more easily. The obvious downside is extensive edits to tutorials, websites, training materials, user guide and such, but I don’t consider this a downside – rather, an opportunity to change it based on more user feedback. Cheers, Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Being a tech geek from way back, I can categorically state
that this is yet another instance where "tech brevity" is being valued over end
user understanding. It happens again and again and again. Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362 The color of truth is grey. ~ André Gide
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Hi, We’re talking about two different things: the suggested text refers to what is now known as “Input Gestures” dialog. NVDA+number row 1 may change to something more descriptive and not too verbose. Cheers, Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 11:05 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Can I change NVDA key commands
Manage commands means that you can define or redefine or map commands by invoking the NVDA 1 command. Why not just call it what it is, keyboard and gestures help. Or something else, if there is as good alternative descriptive language but I can think of no other comprehensive and accurate way to say this that will be 8understandable to the gggeneral user.
Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Joseph Lee Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 12:55 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] Can I change NVDA key commands
Hi, Hmmm, I see. How about renaming it to something to the effect of, “Manage commands”? That may allow the original intent to be kept while making it more user friendly. It may also allow translators to translate this concept more easily. The obvious downside is extensive edits to tutorials, websites, training materials, user guide and such, but I don’t consider this a downside – rather, an opportunity to change it based on more user feedback. Cheers, Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Being a tech geek from way back, I can categorically state that this is yet another instance where "tech brevity" is being valued over end user understanding. It happens again and again and again. Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362 The color of truth is grey. ~ André Gide
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Ed Marquette
Why not something simple like “managing input“ or “manage input.“ That would cover all forms of input: keyboard voice, and so on.
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On Jul 21, 2019, at 1:10 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:
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Gene
I see. I thought NVDA key 1 was input
gestures but evidently, it's just input help. Input help is a reasonable
name for that feature.
Manage commands sounds alright for the
dialog.
Gene
----- Original Message
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From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can I change NVDA key commands Hi, We’re talking about two different things: the suggested text refers to what is now known as “Input Gestures” dialog. NVDA+number row 1 may change to something more descriptive and not too verbose. Cheers, Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Gene
Manage commands means that you can define or redefine or map commands by invoking the NVDA 1 command. Why not just call it what it is, keyboard and gestures help. Or something else, if there is as good alternative descriptive language but I can think of no other comprehensive and accurate way to say this that will be 8understandable to the gggeneral user.
Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Joseph Lee Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 12:55 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] Can I change NVDA key commands
Hi, Hmmm, I see. How about renaming it to something to the effect of, “Manage commands”? That may allow the original intent to be kept while making it more user friendly. It may also allow translators to translate this concept more easily. The obvious downside is extensive edits to tutorials, websites, training materials, user guide and such, but I don’t consider this a downside – rather, an opportunity to change it based on more user feedback. Cheers, Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Brian Vogel
Being a tech geek from way back, I can categorically state
that this is yet another instance where "tech brevity" is being valued over end
user understanding. It happens again and again and again. Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362 The color of truth is grey. ~ André Gide
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Rui Fontes
Why not "Manage commands" and "Commands help"?
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After all, keystrokes, from a keyboard or Braille display, touchs on screen and so on, are all commands for NVDA... Rui Fontes Às 19:57 de 21/07/2019, Gene escreveu: I see. I thought NVDA key 1 was input gestures but evidently, it's just input help. Input help is a reasonable name for that feature. |
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Good idea, but no. I interpret that as" terminal commands" not keyboard and gesture commands." Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well. Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc. Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here On 21 Jul 2019, at 10:55, Joseph Lee wrote:
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On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 04:43 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I interpret that as" terminal commands" not keyboard and gesture commands."Why? There are not and never have been terminal/command line commands (other than for starting it) for NVDA. There is absolutely no legitimate context for that interpretation. We are talking about "within NVDA" here. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362 The color of truth is grey. ~ André Gide
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Luke Davis
I have always thought calling it "input Gestures" was a bit absurd, seeming to prioritize the idea of touch gestures over keys in the language, when exactly the opposite is the case in practical use.
Anything is better than what's there now, but I would personally like something along the lines of Keyboard and Gesture Manager, or Keyboard and Gesture Management. Or possibly better: Remap Keys and Gestures. Or maybe more newbie friendly still: Edit Key Commands and Touch Gestures. Luke |
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