Can I change NVDA key commands
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Chris
Command Manager sounds better than manage commands
From: Marcio via Groups.Io
Sent: 22 July 2019 07:32 To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Can I change NVDA key commands
Joseph and Luke,
At least calling it "manage commands" makes more sense than what we havenow. It defines the purpose of that feature better, it denotes thatkeyboards and touchscreens are seen as commands by NVDA (or a piece of inputgesture, for those looking at NVDA source code), and leaves room forcapturing other input possibilities without changing things later (whichdoes introduce visual and linguistic side effects). I agree. "Manage Commands" sounds nice for me, and I guess now I'm sticking with this one :) AKA Starboy
Sent from a galaxy far, far away. --
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Joseph and Luke,
Joseph wrote: I agree. "Manage Commands" sounds nice for me, and I guess now I'm sticking with this one :)At least calling it "manage commands" makes more sense than what we have now. It defines the purpose of that feature better, it denotes that keyboards and touchscreens are seen as commands by NVDA (or a piece of input gesture, for those looking at NVDA source code), and leaves room for capturing other input possibilities without changing things later (which does introduce visual and linguistic side effects). Cheers, Marcio AKA Starboy Sent from a galaxy far, far away. --Are you a Thunderbird user? Then join the Thunderbird mailing list to help and be helped with all Thunderbird things - questions, features, add-ons and much more! |
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Hi,
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As I pointed out a few hours ago, input refers to not only keyboards, but also touch gestures, braille displays, and other possibilities. There are braille display hardware commands that are not really keyboard commands, nor can be described accurately as gestures (for example, whiz wheels on older Vispero (formerly Freedom Scientific) displays, scroll wheel on HumanWare BrailleNote Apex, touchscreen input on BrailleNote Touch family, cursor routing buttons, etc.). In case of BrailleNote Touch and Touch Plus (internally recognized as Brailliant BI/B), it is a special case of its own due to touch input surface - could be considered a keyboard, could be considered a gesture, and other endless possibilities. If DictationBridge add-on adds a possibility to define custom voice commands (or rather, ability to add text to be used to activate a command via voice), then using just keyboard and gestures won't make sense. At least calling it "manage commands" makes more sense than what we have now. It defines the purpose of that feature better, it denotes that keyboards and touchscreens are seen as commands by NVDA (or a piece of input gesture, for those looking at NVDA source code), and leaves room for capturing other input possibilities without changing things later (which does introduce visual and linguistic side effects). Having used all four forms of input (keyboard, braille, touch, voice; five if I count using a BrailleNote Touch Plus as a braille display with input done from the touch surface as a separate category of its own), I think it would be best to go for something that makes things clearer without making it more verbose, something that describes the idea without going into specifics. Regardless of which label gets chosen by the community, here is what I will do: 1. I will ask translators about the new label. 2. I will edit the NVDA source code accordingly, including adding clarifications here and there. 3. I will edit the user guide to mention the new label and add a clarification as to which input technology NVDA can understand. Cheers, Joseph -----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Luke Davis Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 7:27 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Can I change NVDA key commands On Sun, 21 Jul 2019, Luke Davis wrote: How about "Edit Keys and Gestures" then?I think I will retract this one. While I like the word "edit" for what the option is doing, it is possible for edit to be taken not in the context of altering the keys and gestures in question, but as some sort of control for working with "edit keys" or some such silliness. Perhaps: Change Keys and Gestures Modify Keys and Gestures Key and Gesture Manager I still find "Command Manager" or the like to be a little more opaque than just putting something in the name about keys and gestures, or keyboard and gestures. Luke |
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Luke Davis
On Sun, 21 Jul 2019, Luke Davis wrote:
How about "Edit Keys and Gestures" then?I think I will retract this one. While I like the word "edit" for what the option is doing, it is possible for edit to be taken not in the context of altering the keys and gestures in question, but as some sort of control for working with "edit keys" or some such silliness. Perhaps: Change Keys and Gestures Modify Keys and Gestures Key and Gesture Manager I still find "Command Manager" or the like to be a little more opaque than just putting something in the name about keys and gestures, or keyboard and gestures. Luke |
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Luke Davis
How about "Edit Keys and Gestures" then?
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On Sun, 21 Jul 2019, Marcio via Groups.Io wrote:
Luke, |
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I wrote:
the more I liked better was the "Keyboard and Gesture Management".It should be "the one I liked better". Guess I need to pay more attention to what I'm writing LOL Cheers, Marcio AKA Starboy Sent from a galaxy far, far away. --Are you a Thunderbird user? Then join the Thunderbird mailing list to help and be helped with all Thunderbird things - questions, features, add-ons and much more! |
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Luke,
From all of your suggestions the more I
liked better was the "Keyboard and Gesture Management".
"Edit Key Commands and Touch Gestures" isn't bad either, yet too verbose and that's why this isn't my choice instead. And while we are on this, I'd like to suggest something. Itt would be nice to have a topic open for these suggestions. This topic would be active for a few days then after this someone would gather the most suitable ones and put them into a poll. What y'all think? Cheers, Marcio AKA Starboy Sent from a galaxy far, far away. --Are you a Thunderbird user? Then join the Thunderbird mailing list to help and be helped with all Thunderbird things - questions, features, add-ons and much more! |
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Luke Davis
I have always thought calling it "input Gestures" was a bit absurd, seeming to prioritize the idea of touch gestures over keys in the language, when exactly the opposite is the case in practical use.
Anything is better than what's there now, but I would personally like something along the lines of Keyboard and Gesture Manager, or Keyboard and Gesture Management. Or possibly better: Remap Keys and Gestures. Or maybe more newbie friendly still: Edit Key Commands and Touch Gestures. Luke |
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On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 04:43 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I interpret that as" terminal commands" not keyboard and gesture commands."Why? There are not and never have been terminal/command line commands (other than for starting it) for NVDA. There is absolutely no legitimate context for that interpretation. We are talking about "within NVDA" here. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362 The color of truth is grey. ~ André Gide
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Good idea, but no. I interpret that as" terminal commands" not keyboard and gesture commands." Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well. Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc. Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here On 21 Jul 2019, at 10:55, Joseph Lee wrote:
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Rui Fontes
Why not "Manage commands" and "Commands help"?
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After all, keystrokes, from a keyboard or Braille display, touchs on screen and so on, are all commands for NVDA... Rui Fontes Às 19:57 de 21/07/2019, Gene escreveu: I see. I thought NVDA key 1 was input gestures but evidently, it's just input help. Input help is a reasonable name for that feature. |
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Gene
I see. I thought NVDA key 1 was input
gestures but evidently, it's just input help. Input help is a reasonable
name for that feature.
Manage commands sounds alright for the
dialog.
Gene
----- Original Message
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From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can I change NVDA key commands Hi, We’re talking about two different things: the suggested text refers to what is now known as “Input Gestures” dialog. NVDA+number row 1 may change to something more descriptive and not too verbose. Cheers, Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Gene
Manage commands means that you can define or redefine or map commands by invoking the NVDA 1 command. Why not just call it what it is, keyboard and gestures help. Or something else, if there is as good alternative descriptive language but I can think of no other comprehensive and accurate way to say this that will be 8understandable to the gggeneral user.
Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Joseph Lee Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 12:55 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] Can I change NVDA key commands
Hi, Hmmm, I see. How about renaming it to something to the effect of, “Manage commands”? That may allow the original intent to be kept while making it more user friendly. It may also allow translators to translate this concept more easily. The obvious downside is extensive edits to tutorials, websites, training materials, user guide and such, but I don’t consider this a downside – rather, an opportunity to change it based on more user feedback. Cheers, Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Brian Vogel
Being a tech geek from way back, I can categorically state
that this is yet another instance where "tech brevity" is being valued over end
user understanding. It happens again and again and again. Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362 The color of truth is grey. ~ André Gide
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Ed Marquette
Why not something simple like “managing input“ or “manage input.“ That would cover all forms of input: keyboard voice, and so on.
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On Jul 21, 2019, at 1:10 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:
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Hi, We’re talking about two different things: the suggested text refers to what is now known as “Input Gestures” dialog. NVDA+number row 1 may change to something more descriptive and not too verbose. Cheers, Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 11:05 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Can I change NVDA key commands
Manage commands means that you can define or redefine or map commands by invoking the NVDA 1 command. Why not just call it what it is, keyboard and gestures help. Or something else, if there is as good alternative descriptive language but I can think of no other comprehensive and accurate way to say this that will be 8understandable to the gggeneral user.
Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Joseph Lee Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 12:55 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] Can I change NVDA key commands
Hi, Hmmm, I see. How about renaming it to something to the effect of, “Manage commands”? That may allow the original intent to be kept while making it more user friendly. It may also allow translators to translate this concept more easily. The obvious downside is extensive edits to tutorials, websites, training materials, user guide and such, but I don’t consider this a downside – rather, an opportunity to change it based on more user feedback. Cheers, Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Being a tech geek from way back, I can categorically state that this is yet another instance where "tech brevity" is being valued over end user understanding. It happens again and again and again. Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362 The color of truth is grey. ~ André Gide
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Gene
Manage commands means that you can define or
redefine or map commands by invoking the NVDA 1 command. Why not just call
it what it is, keyboard and gestures help. Or something else, if there is
as good alternative descriptive language but I can think of no other
comprehensive and accurate way to say this that will be 8understandable to the
gggeneral user.
Gene ----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can I change NVDA key commands Hi, Hmmm, I see. How about renaming it to something to the effect of, “Manage commands”? That may allow the original intent to be kept while making it more user friendly. It may also allow translators to translate this concept more easily. The obvious downside is extensive edits to tutorials, websites, training materials, user guide and such, but I don’t consider this a downside – rather, an opportunity to change it based on more user feedback. Cheers, Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Being a tech geek from way back, I can categorically state
that this is yet another instance where "tech brevity" is being valued over end
user understanding. It happens again and again and again. Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362 The color of truth is grey. ~ André Gide
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Hi, I see. Quentin, any thoughts? I’m willing to work on this for 2019.3 provided that we get more user feedback. Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Joseph, Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362 The color of truth is grey. ~ André Gide
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Joseph,
It makes a lot more sense than what's there now. That being said, one of my points is that there are times when brevity serves an important purpose and others where it obscures. In structures meant to guide an end user (or even a tech that probably doesn't touch this stuff with any frequency) somewhere it's better to err on the side of "length that guides" rather than economy of words when said economy obscures. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362 The color of truth is grey. ~ André Gide
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Hi, Hmmm, I see. How about renaming it to something to the effect of, “Manage commands”? That may allow the original intent to be kept while making it more user friendly. It may also allow translators to translate this concept more easily. The obvious downside is extensive edits to tutorials, websites, training materials, user guide and such, but I don’t consider this a downside – rather, an opportunity to change it based on more user feedback. Cheers, Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Being a tech geek from way back, I can categorically state that this is yet another instance where "tech brevity" is being valued over end user understanding. It happens again and again and again. Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362 The color of truth is grey. ~ André Gide
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Being a tech geek from way back, I can categorically state that this is yet another instance where "tech brevity" is being valued over end user understanding. It happens again and again and again.
"Input contols - keyboard commands, touch gestures, etc." as a descriptive in these programs, which is a simple thing to do, makes the intention entirely clear. Microsoft was just as guilty of this with the inane "toast" notifications. No one would instantly recognize that these are notifications that slide in at the lower right hand side of the screen by default. "Slide-in" notifications at least makes it clear what the behavior is, whether you can see it or not, and allows both the sighted and the blind to be "on the same page" about what's being looked out for. It just drives me insane that the "user ergonomics" of software is still so little considered. I am only too well aware that at the setting by setting level this becomes an impossible nightmare for any truly complex piece of software, but at the broad categories and first level of subdivision of those it should be pretty simple. I'd have the previously mentioned "Input Controls" fully articulated label then under that it would be broken into Keyboard Commands, Touch Gestures, Other [e.g. Pen or something that hasn't even been invented yet]. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362 The color of truth is grey. ~ André Gide
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Gene
That is an invalid assumption. Gestures means something you do to
indicate something or something you do on a screen. When have the
developers ever once, before the advent of the touch screen, heard or seen
anyone refer to a gesture when describing a keystroke. Pressing a key is
moving a mechanical switch, not a gesture and it still isn’t refered to as
one. .
Developers aren’t professional writers generally, they are
developers. Those who really know language and who pay close attention to
useage and meaning should be given good attention when such things are brought
up. I was an English major before unexpectedly leaving college. And
I’ve read enough about philosophy to be very aware of the importance of defining
terms. Who do the developers consult when making such a decission based on
a suggestion or complaint? I’m not assuming they don’t consult such people
but it is a question worth getting an answer to.
Brian, from my past observation, is another person who pays careful
attention to precise use of language.
Gene ----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 12:20 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can I change NVDA key commands Hi, I think part of the reason for going that route is our (NVDA developers’) assumption that gestures can encompass input methods such as keyboards, touch, braille, and so many possibilities. JAWS has issues with this too, in that the headquarters for configuring commands is called “keyboard manager” when in fact it can be used to assign braille and touchscreen shortcuts. I think I saw a GitHub issue that asks NV Access to change this to something more meaningful – if I do find it and if there is justification for it, I’ll ask NV Access people to take a look at it again. If NVDA developers agree that it should be changed, it will be done for a future release (not now due to more important road paving operations taking place at the moment). Cheers, Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 11:32 AM, Joseph Norton wrote:
I've actually complained on this list (but I don't think on
github) about this very unfortunate choice of terminology. Your
presumption that gestures applies to touch actions is almost universal across
the UI world. Keyboard shortcuts are not gestures and never the twain
shall meet. Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362 The color of truth is grey. ~ André Gide
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