Topics

NVDA in Employment


kelby carlson
 

Hi, everyone,

I hope this isn't too off-topic. I recently heard an argument that NVDA is bad for blind prospect's in employment because it is the "dumbed down" solution. The person arguing this elaborated, saying that NVDA is not customizable/flexible enough (too chatty"), that it was not able to be scripted as easily, it didn't work well with as much proprietary software, and that it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open source.

So my question is this: how many people here use NVDA for work, and is there a notable dilerence in level of usability with JAWS?

Also, does NVDA have a skim reading feature like JAWS?


 

hello for your second question about reading,
please check
Allow skim reading in Say All
in keyboard setting.
i activated this feature and it works greatly in most parts.

On 8/25/19, kelby carlson <kelbycarlson@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi, everyone,

I hope this isn't too off-topic. I recently heard an argument that NVDA is
bad for blind prospect's in employment because it is the "dumbed down"
solution. The person arguing this elaborated, saying that NVDA is not
customizable/flexible enough (too chatty"), that it was not able to be
scripted as easily, it didn't work well with as much proprietary software,
and that it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open
source.

So my question is this: how many people here use NVDA for work, and is there
a notable dilerence in level of usability with JAWS?

Also, does NVDA have a skim reading feature like JAWS?



--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali


Antony Stone
 

Anyone who suggests that open source software shouldn't be allowed in a secure
environment doesn't understand the concept of peer review and "we have nothing
to hide - look at our software and judge for yourself (I don't mean the
average user, I mean security experts) whether it's secure or not".

Proprietary software can hide all sorts of bugs and backdoors the vendor wants
to behind the cloak of secrecy. That's not the same as security.

Antony.

On Sunday 25 August 2019 at 13:38:39, kelby carlson wrote:

Hi, everyone,

I hope this isn't too off-topic. I recently heard an argument that NVDA is
bad for blind prospect's in employment because it is the "dumbed down"
solution. The person arguing this elaborated, saying that NVDA is not
customizable/flexible enough (too chatty"), that it was not able to be
scripted as easily, it didn't work well with as much proprietary software,
and that it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open
source.

So my question is this: how many people here use NVDA for work, and is
there a notable dilerence in level of usability with JAWS?

Also, does NVDA have a skim reading feature like JAWS?
--
If you can smile when all about you things are going wrong, you must have
someone in mind to take the blame.

Please reply to the list;
please *don't* CC me.


Andy B.
 

Part of the reason secured environments don’t allow NVDA is partly because it is written in Python, an interpreted programming language much like Java or JavaScript. Python is not type safe. This means that if you have a variable such as age = 26 in an add-on somewhere, age could be changed to the word “frozen!” and the entire system crashes down on you. Although interpreted languages are a write once, run anywhere concept, runtime is much slower than compiled programming languages such as C++ and C#. I digress though, C# is partially compiled, then ran in an interpreted environment. In either case, NVDA is prone to more errors and problems than JAWS.

The other problem is that NVDA isn’t promoted enough. It has been around for about 10 years, but JAWS has been around since the 80s. Who can compete with something that stable?

 

Andy Borka

Accessibility engineer

 

From: kelby carlson
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 7:38 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] NVDA in Emploandenp

 

Hi, everyone,

 

I hope this isn't too off-topic. I recently heard an argument that NVDA is bad for blind prospect's in employment because it is the "dumbed down" solution. The person arguing this elaborated, saying that NVDA is not customizable/flexible enough (too chatty"), that it was not able to be scripted as easily, it didn't work well with as much proprietary software, and that it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open source.

 

So my question is this: how many people here use NVDA for work, and is there a notable dilerence in level of usability with JAWS?

 

Also, does NVDA have a skim reading feature like JAWS?

 

 

 


Andy B.
 

We are getting off topic, but most IT departments don’t have the resources to look through NVDA/Open source software and determine if it’s secure enough. Then again, JAWS also has its problems getting into secured environments.

 

 

Andy Borka

Accessibility engineer

 

From: Antony Stone
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 7:49 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in Emploandenp

 

Anyone who suggests that open source software shouldn't be allowed in a secure

environment doesn't understand the concept of peer review and "we have nothing

to hide - look at our software and judge for yourself (I don't mean the

average user, I mean security experts) whether it's secure or not".

 

Proprietary software can hide all sorts of bugs and backdoors the vendor wants

to behind the cloak of secrecy.  That's not the same as security.

 

Antony.

 

On Sunday 25 August 2019 at 13:38:39, kelby carlson wrote:

 

> Hi, everyone,

>

> I hope this isn't too off-topic. I recently heard an argument that NVDA is

> bad for blind prospect's in employment because it is the "dumbed down"

> solution. The person arguing this elaborated, saying that NVDA is not

> customizable/flexible enough (too chatty"), that it was not able to be

> scripted as easily, it didn't work well with as much proprietary software,

> and that it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open

> source.

>

> So my question is this: how many people here use NVDA for work, and is

> there a notable dilerence in level of usability with JAWS?

>

> Also, does NVDA have a skim reading feature like JAWS?

 

--

If you can smile when all about you things are going wrong, you must have

someone in mind to take the blame.

 

                                                   Please reply to the list;

                                                         please *don't* CC me.

 

 

 


kelby carlson
 

I do actually use NVDA at work; my IT department didn't have an issue with it, so I wasn't aware that this was even a problem.

My real question is whether NVDA leads to noticeably less productivity in employment based on user experience of those who use it at work. I don't think it does for me, but I haven't used JAWS in a long time, so I'm not sure.

That skim reading feature doesn't look quite as advanced as the one JAWS has; no text rules etc.


On Aug 25, 2019, at 7:58 AM, Andy B. <sonfire11@...> wrote:

We are getting off topic, but most IT departments don’t have the resources to look through NVDA/Open source software and determine if it’s secure enough. Then again, JAWS also has its problems getting into secured environments.

 

 

Andy Borka

Accessibility engineer

 

From: Antony Stone
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 7:49 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in Emploandenp

 

Anyone who suggests that open source software shouldn't be allowed in a secure

environment doesn't understand the concept of peer review and "we have nothing

to hide - look at our software and judge for yourself (I don't mean the

average user, I mean security experts) whether it's secure or not".

 

Proprietary software can hide all sorts of bugs and backdoors the vendor wants

to behind the cloak of secrecy.  That's not the same as security.

 

Antony.

 

On Sunday 25 August 2019 at 13:38:39, kelby carlson wrote:

 

> Hi, everyone,

>

> I hope this isn't too off-topic. I recently heard an argument that NVDA is

> bad for blind prospect's in employment because it is the "dumbed down"

> solution. The person arguing this elaborated, saying that NVDA is not

> customizable/flexible enough (too chatty"), that it was not able to be

> scripted as easily, it didn't work well with as much proprietary software,

> and that it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open

> source.

>

> So my question is this: how many people here use NVDA for work, and is

> there a notable dilerence in level of usability with JAWS?

>

> Also, does NVDA have a skim reading feature like JAWS?

 

--

If you can smile when all about you things are going wrong, you must have

someone in mind to take the blame.

 

                                                   Please reply to the list;

                                                         please *don't* CC me.

 

 

 


Monte Single
 

I worked for the Saskatoon school board for decades.  I used nvda for the last 8  years with no problems or complaints.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of kelby carlson
Sent: August-25-19 6:40 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in Emploandenp

 

I do actually use NVDA at work; my IT department didn't have an issue with it, so I wasn't aware that this was even a problem.

 

My real question is whether NVDA leads to noticeably less productivity in employment based on user experience of those who use it at work. I don't think it does for me, but I haven't used JAWS in a long time, so I'm not sure.

 

That skim reading feature doesn't look quite as advanced as the one JAWS has; no text rules etc.


On Aug 25, 2019, at 7:58 AM, Andy B. <sonfire11@...> wrote:

We are getting off topic, but most IT departments don’t have the resources to look through NVDA/Open source software and determine if it’s secure enough. Then again, JAWS also has its problems getting into secured environments.

 

 

Andy Borka

Accessibility engineer

 

From: Antony Stone
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 7:49 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in Emploandenp

 

Anyone who suggests that open source software shouldn't be allowed in a secure

environment doesn't understand the concept of peer review and "we have nothing

to hide - look at our software and judge for yourself (I don't mean the

average user, I mean security experts) whether it's secure or not".

 

Proprietary software can hide all sorts of bugs and backdoors the vendor wants

to behind the cloak of secrecy.  That's not the same as security.

 

Antony.

 

On Sunday 25 August 2019 at 13:38:39, kelby carlson wrote:

 

> Hi, everyone,

>

> I hope this isn't too off-topic. I recently heard an argument that NVDA is

> bad for blind prospect's in employment because it is the "dumbed down"

> solution. The person arguing this elaborated, saying that NVDA is not

> customizable/flexible enough (too chatty"), that it was not able to be

> scripted as easily, it didn't work well with as much proprietary software,

> and that it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open

> source.

>

> So my question is this: how many people here use NVDA for work, and is

> there a notable dilerence in level of usability with JAWS?

>

> Also, does NVDA have a skim reading feature like JAWS?

 

--

If you can smile when all about you things are going wrong, you must have

someone in mind to take the blame.

 

                                                   Please reply to the list;

                                                         please *don't* CC me.

 

 

 


Andy B.
 

Productivity is a different story, and the answer will depend on the user and what they do at work. For me, NVDA seems more limiting than productive, especially with software/web design because unless you take the time to create your own features in an add-on like I do, then I don’t get much work done. Then again, JAWS is limiting in this aspect of accessibility as well.

Aside the user interface design, NVDA is a deal breaker with software/web development because the autocomplete features of most IDEs like VS Code, Notepad++, and Visual Studio don’t work with screen readers, or lack in usability. NVDA’s support for autocomplete in these editors/IDEs is lacking at best and adds almost 30 seconds of time to the additional time it takes to edit each line of code. Considering it takes 30 seconds to type a line of code and another 30 seconds to use autocomplete, 1 minute to type a line of code is quite slow. JAWS speeds up time with autocomplete. It only takes me 10 seconds a line of code on average because autocomplete can finish most lines of code for me, and I know what autocomplete is doing as well.

 

Andy Borka

Accessibility engineer

 

From: kelby carlson
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 8:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in Emploandenp

 

I do actually use NVDA at work; my IT department didn't have an issue with it, so I wasn't aware that this was even a problem.

 

My real question is whether NVDA leads to noticeably less productivity in employment based on user experience of those who use it at work. I don't think it does for me, but I haven't used JAWS in a long time, so I'm not sure.

 

That skim reading feature doesn't look quite as advanced as the one JAWS has; no text rules etc.


On Aug 25, 2019, at 7:58 AM, Andy B. <sonfire11@...> wrote:

We are getting off topic, but most IT departments don’t have the resources to look through NVDA/Open source software and determine if it’s secure enough. Then again, JAWS also has its problems getting into secured environments.

 

 

Andy Borka

Accessibility engineer

 

From: Antony Stone
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 7:49 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in Emploandenp

 

Anyone who suggests that open source software shouldn't be allowed in a secure

environment doesn't understand the concept of peer review and "we have nothing

to hide - look at our software and judge for yourself (I don't mean the

average user, I mean security experts) whether it's secure or not".

 

Proprietary software can hide all sorts of bugs and backdoors the vendor wants

to behind the cloak of secrecy.  That's not the same as security.

 

Antony.

 

On Sunday 25 August 2019 at 13:38:39, kelby carlson wrote:

 

> Hi, everyone,

>

> I hope this isn't too off-topic. I recently heard an argument that NVDA is

> bad for blind prospect's in employment because it is the "dumbed down"

> solution. The person arguing this elaborated, saying that NVDA is not

> customizable/flexible enough (too chatty"), that it was not able to be

> scripted as easily, it didn't work well with as much proprietary software,

> and that it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open

> source.

>

> So my question is this: how many people here use NVDA for work, and is

> there a notable dilerence in level of usability with JAWS?

>

> Also, does NVDA have a skim reading feature like JAWS?

 

--

If you can smile when all about you things are going wrong, you must have

someone in mind to take the blame.

 

                                                   Please reply to the list;

                                                         please *don't* CC me.

 

 

 

 


Gene
 

However, if the general perception among those who administer such software is that NVDA may be more dangerous, that still means that the perception makes it as much a problem as if it were reality.  So how prevalent are such problems?
 
Gene
----- original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 6:49 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in Emploandenp

Anyone who suggests that open source software shouldn't be allowed in a secure
environment doesn't understand the concept of peer review and "we have nothing
to hide - look at our software and judge for yourself (I don't mean the
average user, I mean security experts) whether it's secure or not".

Proprietary software can hide all sorts of bugs and backdoors the vendor wants
to behind the cloak of secrecy.  That's not the same as security.

Antony.

On Sunday 25 August 2019 at 13:38:39, kelby carlson wrote:

> Hi, everyone,
>
> I hope this isn't too off-topic. I recently heard an argument that NVDA is
> bad for blind prospect's in employment because it is the "dumbed down"
> solution. The person arguing this elaborated, saying that NVDA is not
> customizable/flexible enough (too chatty"), that it was not able to be
> scripted as easily, it didn't work well with as much proprietary software,
> and that it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open
> source.
>
> So my question is this: how many people here use NVDA for work, and is
> there a notable dilerence in level of usability with JAWS?
>
> Also, does NVDA have a skim reading feature like JAWS?

--
If you can smile when all about you things are going wrong, you must have
someone in mind to take the blame.

                                                   Please reply to the list;
                                                         please *don't* CC me.



kelby carlson
 

Part of the reason I'm asking is because I'm at least considering trying to switch back to JAWS. However, I'm not sure my work will go for it given I have made NVDA work; I would need to come up with specific reasons JAWS would be necessary.


On Aug 25, 2019, at 11:08 AM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

However, if the general perception among those who administer such software is that NVDA may be more dangerous, that still means that the perception makes it as much a problem as if it were reality.  So how prevalent are such problems?
 
Gene
----- original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 6:49 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in Emploandenp

Anyone who suggests that open source software shouldn't be allowed in a secure
environment doesn't understand the concept of peer review and "we have nothing
to hide - look at our software and judge for yourself (I don't mean the
average user, I mean security experts) whether it's secure or not".

Proprietary software can hide all sorts of bugs and backdoors the vendor wants
to behind the cloak of secrecy.  That's not the same as security.

Antony.

On Sunday 25 August 2019 at 13:38:39, kelby carlson wrote:

> Hi, everyone,
>
> I hope this isn't too off-topic. I recently heard an argument that NVDA is
> bad for blind prospect's in employment because it is the "dumbed down"
> solution. The person arguing this elaborated, saying that NVDA is not
> customizable/flexible enough (too chatty"), that it was not able to be
> scripted as easily, it didn't work well with as much proprietary software,
> and that it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open
> source.
>
> So my question is this: how many people here use NVDA for work, and is
> there a notable dilerence in level of usability with JAWS?
>
> Also, does NVDA have a skim reading feature like JAWS?

--
If you can smile when all about you things are going wrong, you must have
someone in mind to take the blame.

                                                   Please reply to the list;
                                                         please *don't* CC me.



erik burggraaf <erik@...>
 

Hi Kelby

On August 25, 2019 7:39:31 AM "kelby carlson" <kelbycarlson@gmail.com> wrote:


I hope this isn't too off-topic. I recently heard an argument that NVDA is bad for blind prospect's in employment because it is the "dumbed down" solution.

That sounds like the blather of some one who recommended commercial screen readers for 20 years and is now having their apple cart upset. I've seen this time and time again and will keep seeing it as long as accessibility is a thing. When some one has to use dirision rather than fact to steer you away from one product and ttowards another, an alarm bell should shreek in your head.

The person arguing this elaborated, saying that NVDA is not customizable/flexible enough (too chatty"),

This is a matter of personal preference, but I can make NVDA do the common things such as punctuation level that I sometimes need to configure.

that it was not able to be scripted as easily,

Now, I have heard argued the other point that NVDA is easier to scrypt than jaws and I subscribe to this view. Consider, there are many more python programmers in the world than jaws scripters. A company can script NVDA in house using their own IT department. Otherwise, the company needs to outsource jaws scripting to an access technology professional. The prices I have seen quoted range from $500 per hour to $150 per line.
it didn't work well with as much proprietary software,

An argument that shows no understanding of access technology trends. It is no longer the purview of a screen reader to work with particular software. In the current and emerging model, an operating system creates accessibility API's that comply with recognized standards. Screen readers provide access using the API's and standards. Software manufacturers are increasingly legally and socially obligated to comply with accessibility standards and implement API's and ffeatures for accessibility provided by the system. Employers are increasingly legally and socially obligated to procure technology hardware and software that complies with accessibility standards so that it can work with access technologies. NVDA has been considered the most standards compliant screen rreader for several years as far as I know,.

and that it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open source.

Extrordinarily foolish. If open source software is insecure, why is it powering the commercial internet? If commercial software is inherantly secure, why do we need to spend billians of dollars protecting windows against viruses? NVD'S licencing makes it time and cost efficient to install across large networks such as call centre floors holding thousands of computer workstations. If your corporate network is secure, than running NVDA can't possibly be less secure than running say adobe reader, which is a known constantly volnerable commercial product.

So my question is this: how many people here use NVDA for work,

I do. I'm a compuuter programming student working as a web application developer for wholenote media in Toronto. I've experienced some of the things members are saying about programming tools such as long delays using intelisense. Not 30 seconds but finger-chompingly long lag. This is the fault of software developers such as Microsoft for not complying with standards or even properly implementing their own API's. At least, if you want me to consider that there might be something in NVDA causing severe lag in microsoft intelisense, how about giving us full access to xaml designer, rad tools, and unit testing among other things. If ms could say their product was up to snuff, then I'd consider that there's an ineficiency in NVDA. Otherwise, autocomplete works well for me in browsers and in VSCode though I haven't tried in notepadplusplus with the add on. We can talk about it when visual studio becomes truly viable for accessibility.

and is there a notable dilerence in level of usability with JAWS?

I couldn't speak to this. I haven't used jaws since the days of 4.5. I have provided some computer training on jaws systems though and have experienced significant frustration using google chrome, excel 2016, windows 10 mail, and other things. In helping jaws users the last year or so, I've seen an issue where displaying web content poops out. Jaws scripts still have a bent for corrupting themselves and needing to be re-installed. And they still haven't figured out how to deal with issues such as laptops switching video cards for various power profiles and ditching the authorization.

I was at the college last week getting set up for my fall semester classes. When I sat down with my access technologist, a nondisabled college employee, he imediately expressed frustration to me over use of jaws in the college. He told me that in general nvda was working much better on college systems than jaws, nvda is superior at the maths I have to do this semester compared to jaws, and he thought for it's effectiveness, jaws was way over priced. This is a complete turnaround from 2.5 years ago when I was registering for courses. At that time, jaws was everything according to this guy. He was extremely skeptical of NVDA and only implemented it for me because I insisted. He was also dead set against mac and has had to rethink that position too. :-)

I've told the story many times about going into the interview at the call centre back in 16. It looked like they were gung hoe to hire me. Their IT guy that I was working with said, "thank god you really wanted NVDA. Jaws won't even load up on our systems for testing." He also told me they would script NVDA in house using their python programmers. I didn't get hired, but I don't think it had anything to do with equipment and resources.

Hope this helps,


 

On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 07:49 AM, Antony Stone wrote:
Proprietary software can hide all sorts of bugs and backdoors the vendor wants
to behind the cloak of secrecy. That's not the same as security.
Just a big, honkin' second and thank you from this member of the peanut gallery!!

You would think, all these decades in, and after the number of times the above scenarios have been proven to have actually occurred, the idea that open-source software, which can be examined, is unsafe relative to proprietary would have died the death it so richly deserves.

Alas . . .
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 


kelby carlson
 

That is extremely helpful. I don't want to name the individual who made these comments, as I suspect many know who he is and he can be somewhat polarizing. With respect to "chattiness", I believe he meant things like announcing too much info when scrolling through Outlook messages—that's the example he gave, at least. I've never seen that to be much of a problem. The biggest deal for me is the lag in many files in Word, though I've never been able to figure out whether that is an NVDA problem. There is also a very strange bug in Outlook where NVDA does not announce messages as I scroll through them; however, this is unique to one specific laptop—my home computer and work desktop don't have this issue.

All that being said, it's interesting to hear your comments about NVDA being implemented widely on corporate nepworks. This person attributed things like that to people choosing the "easy solution" even though it is less efficient. However, I have actually seen NVDA be more efficient in a number of cases; I like it's way of handling navigation better than JAWS's multiple cursors, for one thing.

On Aug 25, 2019, at 2:27 PM, erik burggraaf <erik@erik-burggraaf.com> wrote:

Hi Kelby
On August 25, 2019 7:39:31 AM "kelby carlson" <kelbycarlson@gmail.com> wrote:


I hope this isn't too off-topic. I recently heard an argument that NVDA is bad for blind prospect's in employment because it is the "dumbed down" solution.

That sounds like the blather of some one who recommended commercial screen readers for 20 years and is now having their apple cart upset. I've seen this time and time again and will keep seeing it as long as accessibility is a thing. When some one has to use dirision rather than fact to steer you away from one product and ttowards another, an alarm bell should shreek in your head.

The person arguing this elaborated, saying that NVDA is not customizable/flexible enough (too chatty"),

This is a matter of personal preference, but I can make NVDA do the common things such as punctuation level that I sometimes need to configure.

that it was not able to be scripted as easily,

Now, I have heard argued the other point that NVDA is easier to scrypt than jaws and I subscribe to this view. Consider, there are many more python programmers in the world than jaws scripters. A company can script NVDA in house using their own IT department. Otherwise, the company needs to outsource jaws scripting to an access technology professional. The prices I have seen quoted range from $500 per hour to $150 per line.
it didn't work well with as much proprietary software,

An argument that shows no understanding of access technology trends. It is no longer the purview of a screen reader to work with particular software. In the current and emerging model, an operating system creates accessibility API's that comply with recognized standards. Screen readers provide access using the API's and standards. Software manufacturers are increasingly legally and socially obligated to comply with accessibility standards and implement API's and ffeatures for accessibility provided by the system. Employers are increasingly legally and socially obligated to procure technology hardware and software that complies with accessibility standards so that it can work with access technologies. NVDA has been considered the most standards compliant screen rreader for several years as far as I know,.

and that it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open source.

Extrordinarily foolish. If open source software is insecure, why is it powering the commercial internet? If commercial software is inherantly secure, why do we need to spend billians of dollars protecting windows against viruses? NVD'S licencing makes it time and cost efficient to install across large networks such as call centre floors holding thousands of computer workstations. If your corporate network is secure, than running NVDA can't possibly be less secure than running say adobe reader, which is a known constantly volnerable commercial product.

So my question is this: how many people here use NVDA for work,

I do. I'm a compuuter programming student working as a web application developer for wholenote media in Toronto. I've experienced some of the things members are saying about programming tools such as long delays using intelisense. Not 30 seconds but finger-chompingly long lag. This is the fault of software developers such as Microsoft for not complying with standards or even properly implementing their own API's. At least, if you want me to consider that there might be something in NVDA causing severe lag in microsoft intelisense, how about giving us full access to xaml designer, rad tools, and unit testing among other things. If ms could say their product was up to snuff, then I'd consider that there's an ineficiency in NVDA. Otherwise, autocomplete works well for me in browsers and in VSCode though I haven't tried in notepadplusplus with the add on. We can talk about it when visual studio becomes truly viable for accessibility.

and is there a notable dilerence in level of usability with JAWS?

I couldn't speak to this. I haven't used jaws since the days of 4.5. I have provided some computer training on jaws systems though and have experienced significant frustration using google chrome, excel 2016, windows 10 mail, and other things. In helping jaws users the last year or so, I've seen an issue where displaying web content poops out. Jaws scripts still have a bent for corrupting themselves and needing to be re-installed. And they still haven't figured out how to deal with issues such as laptops switching video cards for various power profiles and ditching the authorization.

I was at the college last week getting set up for my fall semester classes. When I sat down with my access technologist, a nondisabled college employee, he imediately expressed frustration to me over use of jaws in the college. He told me that in general nvda was working much better on college systems than jaws, nvda is superior at the maths I have to do this semester compared to jaws, and he thought for it's effectiveness, jaws was way over priced. This is a complete turnaround from 2.5 years ago when I was registering for courses. At that time, jaws was everything according to this guy. He was extremely skeptical of NVDA and only implemented it for me because I insisted. He was also dead set against mac and has had to rethink that position too. :-)

I've told the story many times about going into the interview at the call centre back in 16. It looked like they were gung hoe to hire me. Their IT guy that I was working with said, "thank god you really wanted NVDA. Jaws won't even load up on our systems for testing." He also told me they would script NVDA in house using their python programmers. I didn't get hired, but I don't think it had anything to do with equipment and resources.

Hope this helps,









Vincent Le Goff <vincent.legoff.srs@...>
 

Well, there were a lot of comments on this topic and I just want to answer the question: who use NVDA for/at work?

 

And I’ll add one to the list.  I’ve been using NVDA for 10 years (back then it may not have been that stable, arguably). Last year I worked as an IT engineer and accessibility developer and that was the first time I really had to play with Jaws scripts and Jaws accessibility.  My opinion was similar to the one expressed in previous posts: Jaws sounded way overpriced for a tool that didn’t look that stable (yeah, I could crash it several times and it wasn’t even my scripting then) and had several bugs (I found more bugs in Jaws with Braille than I found in NVDA, which was a great and somewhat pleasant surprise to me).  If I can spend my time working on NVDA addons instead of Jaws scripts, I will be happy.  Only my two cents!

 

Vincent

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: erik burggraaf
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 8:27 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in Emploandenp

 

Hi Kelby

On August 25, 2019 7:39:31 AM "kelby carlson" <kelbycarlson@...> wrote:

 

 

I hope this isn't too off-topic. I recently heard an argument that NVDA is

bad for blind prospect's in employment because it is the "dumbed down"

solution.

 

That sounds like the blather of some one who recommended commercial screen

readers for 20 years and is now having their apple cart upset.  I've seen

this time and time again and will keep seeing it as long as accessibility

is a thing.  When some one has to use dirision rather than fact to steer

you away from one product and ttowards another, an alarm bell should shreek

in your head.

 

The person arguing this elaborated, saying that NVDA is not

customizable/flexible enough (too chatty"),

 

This is a matter of personal preference, but I can make NVDA do the common

things such as punctuation level that I sometimes need to configure.

 

that it was not able to be scripted as easily,

 

Now, I have heard argued the other point that NVDA is easier to scrypt than

jaws and I subscribe to this view.  Consider, there are many more python

programmers in the world than jaws scripters.  A company can script NVDA in

house using their own IT department.  Otherwise, the company needs to

outsource jaws scripting to an access technology professional.  The prices

I have seen quoted range from $500 per hour to $150 per line.

it didn't work well with as much proprietary software,

 

An argument that shows no understanding of access technology trends.  It is

no longer the purview of a screen reader to work with particular software. 

In the current and emerging model, an operating system creates

accessibility API's that comply with recognized standards.  Screen readers

provide access using the API's and standards.  Software manufacturers are

increasingly  legally and socially obligated to comply with accessibility

standards and implement API's and ffeatures for accessibility provided by

the system.  Employers are increasingly legally and socially obligated to

procure technology hardware and software that complies with accessibility

standards so that it can work with access technologies.  NVDA has been

considered the most standards compliant screen rreader for several years as

far as I know,.

 

and that it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open

source.

 

Extrordinarily foolish.  If open source software is insecure, why is it

powering the commercial internet?  If commercial software is inherantly

secure, why do we need to spend billians of dollars protecting windows

against viruses?  NVD'S licencing makes it time and cost efficient to

install across large networks such as call centre floors holding thousands

of computer workstations.  If your corporate network is secure, than

running NVDA can't possibly be less secure  than running say adobe reader,

which is a known constantly volnerable commercial product.

 

So my question is this: how many people here use NVDA for work,

 

I do.  I'm a compuuter programming student working as a web application

developer for wholenote media in Toronto.  I've experienced some of the

things members are saying about programming tools such as long delays using

intelisense.  Not 30 seconds but finger-chompingly long lag.  This is the

fault of software developers such as Microsoft for not complying with

standards or even properly implementing their own API's.  At least, if you

want me to consider that there might be something in NVDA causing severe

lag in microsoft intelisense, how about giving us full access to xaml

designer, rad tools, and unit testing among other things.  If ms could say

their product was up to snuff, then I'd consider that there's an

ineficiency in NVDA.  Otherwise, autocomplete works well for me in browsers

and in VSCode though I haven't tried in notepadplusplus with the add on. 

We can talk about it when visual studio becomes truly viable for accessibility.

 

and is there a notable dilerence in level of usability with JAWS?

 

I couldn't speak to this.  I haven't used jaws since the days of 4.5.  I

have provided some computer training on jaws systems though and have

experienced significant frustration using google chrome, excel 2016,

windows 10 mail, and other things.  In helping jaws users the last year or

so, I've seen an issue where displaying web content poops out.  Jaws

scripts still have a bent for corrupting themselves and needing to be

re-installed.  And they still haven't figured out how to deal with issues

such as laptops switching video cards for various power profiles and

ditching the authorization.

 

I was at the college last week getting set up for my fall semester classes.

 When I sat down with my access technologist, a nondisabled college

employee, he imediately expressed frustration to me over use of jaws in the

college.  He told me that in general nvda was working much better on

college systems than jaws, nvda is superior at the maths I have to do this

semester compared to jaws, and he thought for it's effectiveness, jaws was

way over priced.  This is a complete turnaround from 2.5 years ago when I

was registering for courses.  At that time, jaws was everything according

to this guy.  He was extremely skeptical of NVDA and only implemented it

for me because I insisted.  He was also dead set against mac and has had to

rethink that position too.  :-)

 

I've told the story many times about going into the interview at the call

centre back in 16.  It looked like they were gung hoe to hire me.  Their IT

guy that I was working with said, "thank god you really wanted NVDA.  Jaws

won't even load up on our systems for testing."  He also told me they would

script NVDA in house using their python programmers.  I didn't get hired,

but I don't think it had anything to do with  equipment and resources.

 

Hope this helps,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Sky Mundell
 

Hello Eric. I can confirm exactly what you are saying. I work as an adaptive
technology specialist at Pacific Training Centre for the blind and we use
NVDA with our students, and we also do JAWS as well but on the computers we
have, as you said, JAWS sometimes work, it sometimes doesn't. NVDA, on the
other hand, has no problems at all. For instants, when I go and check for
updates on the computers at work JAWS says the word "blank" all the time
when I use the JAWS curser but NVDA has no problems with it and it doesn't
say blank all the time. Even updating JAWS doesn't help. I think part of it
is that IT departments think that if it is free, it isn't comparable to
JAWS, but, what we need to focus on is the why it is free. The reason why it
is free is to help those folks who couldn't fork out to buy an expensive
solution. That was why NVDA started out in the first place. Also, it has a
unique model in that you can donate. So, while your getting the product for
free, you can still donate to the product and keep it going. It isn't like a
software that is just free and has no way to donate. It's actually what I
would call it a donation baste product.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of erik
burggraaf
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 11:27 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in Emploandenp

Hi Kelby
On August 25, 2019 7:39:31 AM "kelby carlson" <kelbycarlson@gmail.com>
wrote:


I hope this isn't too off-topic. I recently heard an argument that NVDA is
bad for blind prospect's in employment because it is the "dumbed down"
solution.

That sounds like the blather of some one who recommended commercial screen
readers for 20 years and is now having their apple cart upset. I've seen
this time and time again and will keep seeing it as long as accessibility
is a thing. When some one has to use dirision rather than fact to steer
you away from one product and ttowards another, an alarm bell should shreek
in your head.

The person arguing this elaborated, saying that NVDA is not
customizable/flexible enough (too chatty"),

This is a matter of personal preference, but I can make NVDA do the common
things such as punctuation level that I sometimes need to configure.

that it was not able to be scripted as easily,

Now, I have heard argued the other point that NVDA is easier to scrypt than
jaws and I subscribe to this view. Consider, there are many more python
programmers in the world than jaws scripters. A company can script NVDA in
house using their own IT department. Otherwise, the company needs to
outsource jaws scripting to an access technology professional. The prices
I have seen quoted range from $500 per hour to $150 per line.
it didn't work well with as much proprietary software,

An argument that shows no understanding of access technology trends. It is
no longer the purview of a screen reader to work with particular software.
In the current and emerging model, an operating system creates
accessibility API's that comply with recognized standards. Screen readers
provide access using the API's and standards. Software manufacturers are
increasingly legally and socially obligated to comply with accessibility
standards and implement API's and ffeatures for accessibility provided by
the system. Employers are increasingly legally and socially obligated to
procure technology hardware and software that complies with accessibility
standards so that it can work with access technologies. NVDA has been
considered the most standards compliant screen rreader for several years as
far as I know,.

and that it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open
source.

Extrordinarily foolish. If open source software is insecure, why is it
powering the commercial internet? If commercial software is inherantly
secure, why do we need to spend billians of dollars protecting windows
against viruses? NVD'S licencing makes it time and cost efficient to
install across large networks such as call centre floors holding thousands
of computer workstations. If your corporate network is secure, than
running NVDA can't possibly be less secure than running say adobe reader,
which is a known constantly volnerable commercial product.

So my question is this: how many people here use NVDA for work,

I do. I'm a compuuter programming student working as a web application
developer for wholenote media in Toronto. I've experienced some of the
things members are saying about programming tools such as long delays using
intelisense. Not 30 seconds but finger-chompingly long lag. This is the
fault of software developers such as Microsoft for not complying with
standards or even properly implementing their own API's. At least, if you
want me to consider that there might be something in NVDA causing severe
lag in microsoft intelisense, how about giving us full access to xaml
designer, rad tools, and unit testing among other things. If ms could say
their product was up to snuff, then I'd consider that there's an
ineficiency in NVDA. Otherwise, autocomplete works well for me in browsers
and in VSCode though I haven't tried in notepadplusplus with the add on.
We can talk about it when visual studio becomes truly viable for
accessibility.

and is there a notable dilerence in level of usability with JAWS?

I couldn't speak to this. I haven't used jaws since the days of 4.5. I
have provided some computer training on jaws systems though and have
experienced significant frustration using google chrome, excel 2016,
windows 10 mail, and other things. In helping jaws users the last year or
so, I've seen an issue where displaying web content poops out. Jaws
scripts still have a bent for corrupting themselves and needing to be
re-installed. And they still haven't figured out how to deal with issues
such as laptops switching video cards for various power profiles and
ditching the authorization.

I was at the college last week getting set up for my fall semester classes.
When I sat down with my access technologist, a nondisabled college
employee, he imediately expressed frustration to me over use of jaws in the
college. He told me that in general nvda was working much better on
college systems than jaws, nvda is superior at the maths I have to do this
semester compared to jaws, and he thought for it's effectiveness, jaws was
way over priced. This is a complete turnaround from 2.5 years ago when I
was registering for courses. At that time, jaws was everything according
to this guy. He was extremely skeptical of NVDA and only implemented it
for me because I insisted. He was also dead set against mac and has had to
rethink that position too. :-)

I've told the story many times about going into the interview at the call
centre back in 16. It looked like they were gung hoe to hire me. Their IT
guy that I was working with said, "thank god you really wanted NVDA. Jaws
won't even load up on our systems for testing." He also told me they would
script NVDA in house using their python programmers. I didn't get hired,
but I don't think it had anything to do with equipment and resources.

Hope this helps,


 

By the way, I have updated the topic title so that if future searchers were looking for the terms NVDA and employment the title would match as well as some of the messages.

If you respond to the topic using this message, it will carry the corrected title along.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 


Tony Malykh
 

My two cents: I use NVDA at work. My reasons are:
1. Superior scripting. I wrote half a dozen NVDA add-ons that greatly boost my productivity. For example, IndentNav, TextNav, BrowserNav. Writing similar scripts for Jaws would be hard since I'd have to learn new scripting language, and I was told (correct me if I'm wrong) some of my add-ons would be impossible to implement in Jaws scripting model since it is more limited in nature.
2. Better maintenance. Let's be honest, both NVDA and Jaws do have bugs. However I am delighted to observe that NVDA bugs do get fixed in a very timely fashion. An example of that would be recent breakage of Notepad++, that was fixed within only 10 days. To give you example from the other side, command prompt in Jaws had been broken for two years (approximately entire 2016 and 2017) and all my attempts to talk to Jaws customer support ended up with pretty generic messages "we're working hard on it, but it's not our fault anyways." This was actually the reason why I switched to NVDA - it is hard to keep your job knowing that an essential tool can get broken for years.
it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open source.
It is allowed at my work. Now I've indeed heard of cases when IT department wouldn't allow you to use NVDA with this excuse. It is important to understand the difference between real reasons and excuses. This one sounds to me like an excuse - there is nothing whatsoever in open-source software that makes it inherently insecure. However there are people in IT departments, who are lazy, and sometimes dumb - pardon my French. And in order to avoid doing a little bit of work, they might just reject NVDA with this excuse. On the positive side, it seems to me this happens rarely enough these days.
--Tony


On 8/25/2019 4:38 AM, kelby carlson wrote:
Hi, everyone,

I hope this isn't too off-topic. I recently heard an argument that NVDA is bad for blind prospect's in employment because it is the "dumbed down" solution. The person arguing this elaborated, saying that NVDA is not customizable/flexible enough (too chatty"), that it was not able to be scripted as easily, it didn't work well with as much proprietary software, and that it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open source.

So my question is this: how many people here use NVDA for work, and is there a notable dilerence in level of usability with JAWS?

Also, does NVDA have a skim reading feature like JAWS?


Gene
 

It appears to me that you are trying much too hard from what looks to me to be a defend NVDA position rather than a what is in the real world position.
 
I'll begin by saying that I am retired and I didn't use computers in my work.  And if I had, I wouldn't have had a perspective of the general situation.  However, I offer these observations for people to agree or disagree with. 
 
NVDA has no way for the user to designate frames and have things happen in those frames.  I helped someone years ago who wanted a screen-reader to do certain specific things when she logged on and worked with a transcribing program in a VPN.  The only way NVDA could be made to do the things would have been to have one or more scripts.  The whole point of Frames in JAWS and what Window-eyes called windows and hyperactive windows, was that you could define a part of the screen, have it read when you issue a command, or have the screen-reader monitor that part of the screen and read it when any change occurred, or take some sort of action if certain text appeared or disappeared in the frame. 
There may be technical reasons why NVDA can't have that feature.  But it is a significant deficiency for some, perhaps many, work situations and other settings where customization is necessary.  Aside from how many NVDA scripters there are, a lot of people can learn to work with frames who wouldn't have the interest in learning how to script. 
 
Let's say, though this isn't a work situation, but it is analogous to what I understand is often the case, that I wanted to play a game, have certain parts of the screen read in a certain order and have certain parts of the screen monitored to speak automatically when a specific thing appeared on those parts of the screen and to have that reading interrupt current reading.  All this can be done with frames.
 
And two other important workplace features.  Can NVDA be made to indicate a capital letter when using read to end or up and down arrowing, reading by line?  This is important in the workplace and anywhere else where people proof materials such as reports or papers, as in schools and colleges.  Also, it is my recollection, that JAWS can be made to indicate extra spaces in a document.  I suspect it can indicate other things such as two periods, etc, when reading or moving line by line.  Can NVDA do that?
 
While it may be that standards are being implemented more in software, I doubt the implementation is anywhere near adequate in the wide range of programs used by businesses.
 
Having said all that, NVDA meets the needs of a lot of users and is an enormous contribution to blind peoples' access to computers.  I'm not overlooking or denegrating that.  But I remain to be convinced that JAWS is no longer a better option in many work situations.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 1:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in Emploandenp

Hi Kelby
On August 25, 2019 7:39:31 AM "kelby carlson" <kelbycarlson@...> wrote:


I hope this isn't too off-topic. I recently heard an argument that NVDA is
bad for blind prospect's in employment because it is the "dumbed down"
solution.

That sounds like the blather of some one who recommended commercial screen
readers for 20 years and is now having their apple cart upset.  I've seen
this time and time again and will keep seeing it as long as accessibility
is a thing.  When some one has to use dirision rather than fact to steer
you away from one product and ttowards another, an alarm bell should shreek
in your head.

 The person arguing this elaborated, saying that NVDA is not
customizable/flexible enough (too chatty"),

This is a matter of personal preference, but I can make NVDA do the common
things such as punctuation level that I sometimes need to configure.

that it was not able to be scripted as easily,

Now, I have heard argued the other point that NVDA is easier to scrypt than
jaws and I subscribe to this view.  Consider, there are many more python
programmers in the world than jaws scripters.  A company can script NVDA in
house using their own IT department.  Otherwise, the company needs to
outsource jaws scripting to an access technology professional.  The prices
I have seen quoted range from $500 per hour to $150 per line.
it didn't work well with as much proprietary software,

An argument that shows no understanding of access technology trends.  It is
no longer the purview of a screen reader to work with particular software. 
In the current and emerging model, an operating system creates
accessibility API's that comply with recognized standards.  Screen readers
provide access using the API's and standards.  Software manufacturers are
increasingly  legally and socially obligated to comply with accessibility
standards and implement API's and ffeatures for accessibility provided by
the system.  Employers are increasingly legally and socially obligated to
procure technology hardware and software that complies with accessibility
standards so that it can work with access technologies.  NVDA has been
considered the most standards compliant screen rreader for several years as
far as I know,.

and that it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open
source.

Extrordinarily foolish.  If open source software is insecure, why is it
powering the commercial internet?  If commercial software is inherantly
secure, why do we need to spend billians of dollars protecting windows
against viruses?  NVD'S licencing makes it time and cost efficient to
install across large networks such as call centre floors holding thousands
of computer workstations.  If your corporate network is secure, than
running NVDA can't possibly be less secure  than running say adobe reader,
which is a known constantly volnerable commercial product.

So my question is this: how many people here use NVDA for work,

I do.  I'm a compuuter programming student working as a web application
developer for wholenote media in Toronto.  I've experienced some of the
things members are saying about programming tools such as long delays using
intelisense.  Not 30 seconds but finger-chompingly long lag.  This is the
fault of software developers such as Microsoft for not complying with
standards or even properly implementing their own API's.  At least, if you
want me to consider that there might be something in NVDA causing severe
lag in microsoft intelisense, how about giving us full access to xaml
designer, rad tools, and unit testing among other things.  If ms could say
their product was up to snuff, then I'd consider that there's an
ineficiency in NVDA.  Otherwise, autocomplete works well for me in browsers
and in VSCode though I haven't tried in notepadplusplus with the add on. 
We can talk about it when visual studio becomes truly viable for accessibility.

 and is there a notable dilerence in level of usability with JAWS?

I couldn't speak to this.  I haven't used jaws since the days of 4.5.  I
have provided some computer training on jaws systems though and have
experienced significant frustration using google chrome, excel 2016,
windows 10 mail, and other things.  In helping jaws users the last year or
so, I've seen an issue where displaying web content poops out.  Jaws
scripts still have a bent for corrupting themselves and needing to be
re-installed.  And they still haven't figured out how to deal with issues
such as laptops switching video cards for various power profiles and
ditching the authorization.

I was at the college last week getting set up for my fall semester classes.
 When I sat down with my access technologist, a nondisabled college
employee, he imediately expressed frustration to me over use of jaws in the
college.  He told me that in general nvda was working much better on
college systems than jaws, nvda is superior at the maths I have to do this
semester compared to jaws, and he thought for it's effectiveness, jaws was
way over priced.  This is a complete turnaround from 2.5 years ago when I
was registering for courses.  At that time, jaws was everything according
to this guy.  He was extremely skeptical of NVDA and only implemented it
for me because I insisted.  He was also dead set against mac and has had to
rethink that position too.  :-)

I've told the story many times about going into the interview at the call
centre back in 16.  It looked like they were gung hoe to hire me.  Their IT
guy that I was working with said, "thank god you really wanted NVDA.  Jaws
won't even load up on our systems for testing."  He also told me they would
script NVDA in house using their python programmers.  I didn't get hired,
but I don't think it had anything to do with  equipment and resources.

Hope this helps,









Andy B.
 

A few things here.

1. NVDA has been the most standards compliant for years, at least that you
know of... Do you have documentation that NVDA is the most standards
compliant Windows-based screen reader? I wouldn't call NVDA standards
compliant when the only effective email client NVDA works with is the
web-based version of Gmail. When TB sometimes lags for hours, Windows 10
Mail doesn't read well and you have to make use of notepad to type email,
and NVDA+Outlook results in the error bell going off like the closing bell
on Wallstreet, it doesn't sound very compliant. There are truck loads of
other issues, but I digress.
2. Software developers are increasingly required to create standards
compliant software. Do you have evidence from the U.S. Supreme court or
other international governing body that standards compliant software is an
absolute must? If so, what are those standards and penalties for violating
the standards? This sounds more like an advocacy problem than an NVDA/JAWS
problem. Each platform seems to have its own set of standards. UIA for
Microsoft, IAccessible and IAccessible2 for browsers and most desktop
software, atspi for Linux systems, and who knows what for MAC? In fact,
Windows has implemented UIA since 2016, but NVDA still uses IA2 for most
desktop/application access, and if they don't, they hide it in their APIs.
3. It is foolish to claim open source is not safe in the workplace. You seem
to be taking this point from an NVDA users perspective. If you take it from
the typical IT manager's perspective, the light turns in a different
direction. Assuming the IT department isn't familiar with Python, IA2, UIA,
and focused objects, scripting in Python becomes a problem. Besides, most AT
software and hardware gains popularity through a good marketing plan. NVDA
doesn't seem to have a good marketing plan, else they would have become
direct competitor's with JAWS. In any case, most IT managers have no clue
about AT and how it works. Thus, they will go with the product most
advertised and sought after in the accessibility space.
4. Surprising your disability support person even knew the difference
between JAWS and NVDA. Most schools never heard of them, or if they have,
know nothing about what they do or how they work.
5. The point of AT software and hardware is to gain access to, and use the
accessibility framework implemented in the operating system. Its other job
is to compensate for a lack in such accessibility framework. Hence, why JAWS
works better in VS code and Visual Studio better than NVDA, especially with
autocomplete.

Andy Borka
Accessibility Engineer

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of erik burggraaf
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 2:27 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in Emploandenp

Hi Kelby
On August 25, 2019 7:39:31 AM "kelby carlson" <kelbycarlson@gmail.com>
wrote:


I hope this isn't too off-topic. I recently heard an argument that NVDA is
bad for blind prospect's in employment because it is the "dumbed down"
solution.

That sounds like the blather of some one who recommended commercial screen
readers for 20 years and is now having their apple cart upset. I've seen
this time and time again and will keep seeing it as long as accessibility is
a thing. When some one has to use dirision rather than fact to steer you
away from one product and ttowards another, an alarm bell should shreek in
your head.

The person arguing this elaborated, saying that NVDA is not
customizable/flexible enough (too chatty"),

This is a matter of personal preference, but I can make NVDA do the common
things such as punctuation level that I sometimes need to configure.

that it was not able to be scripted as easily,

Now, I have heard argued the other point that NVDA is easier to scrypt than
jaws and I subscribe to this view. Consider, there are many more python
programmers in the world than jaws scripters. A company can script NVDA in
house using their own IT department. Otherwise, the company needs to
outsource jaws scripting to an access technology professional. The prices I
have seen quoted range from $500 per hour to $150 per line.
it didn't work well with as much proprietary software,

An argument that shows no understanding of access technology trends. It is
no longer the purview of a screen reader to work with particular software.
In the current and emerging model, an operating system creates accessibility
API's that comply with recognized standards. Screen readers provide access
using the API's and standards. Software manufacturers are increasingly
legally and socially obligated to comply with accessibility standards and
implement API's and ffeatures for accessibility provided by the system.
Employers are increasingly legally and socially obligated to procure
technology hardware and software that complies with accessibility standards
so that it can work with access technologies. NVDA has been considered the
most standards compliant screen rreader for several years as far as I know,.

and that it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open
source.

Extrordinarily foolish. If open source software is insecure, why is it
powering the commercial internet? If commercial software is inherantly
secure, why do we need to spend billians of dollars protecting windows
against viruses? NVD'S licencing makes it time and cost efficient to
install across large networks such as call centre floors holding thousands
of computer workstations. If your corporate network is secure, than running
NVDA can't possibly be less secure than running say adobe reader, which is
a known constantly volnerable commercial product.

So my question is this: how many people here use NVDA for work,

I do. I'm a compuuter programming student working as a web application
developer for wholenote media in Toronto. I've experienced some of the
things members are saying about programming tools such as long delays using
intelisense. Not 30 seconds but finger-chompingly long lag. This is the
fault of software developers such as Microsoft for not complying with
standards or even properly implementing their own API's. At least, if you
want me to consider that there might be something in NVDA causing severe lag
in microsoft intelisense, how about giving us full access to xaml designer,
rad tools, and unit testing among other things. If ms could say their
product was up to snuff, then I'd consider that there's an ineficiency in
NVDA. Otherwise, autocomplete works well for me in browsers and in VSCode
though I haven't tried in notepadplusplus with the add on.
We can talk about it when visual studio becomes truly viable for
accessibility.

and is there a notable dilerence in level of usability with JAWS?

I couldn't speak to this. I haven't used jaws since the days of 4.5. I
have provided some computer training on jaws systems though and have
experienced significant frustration using google chrome, excel 2016, windows
10 mail, and other things. In helping jaws users the last year or so, I've
seen an issue where displaying web content poops out. Jaws scripts still
have a bent for corrupting themselves and needing to be re-installed. And
they still haven't figured out how to deal with issues such as laptops
switching video cards for various power profiles and ditching the
authorization.

I was at the college last week getting set up for my fall semester classes.
When I sat down with my access technologist, a nondisabled college
employee, he imediately expressed frustration to me over use of jaws in the
college. He told me that in general nvda was working much better on college
systems than jaws, nvda is superior at the maths I have to do this semester
compared to jaws, and he thought for it's effectiveness, jaws was way over
priced. This is a complete turnaround from 2.5 years ago when I was
registering for courses. At that time, jaws was everything according to
this guy. He was extremely skeptical of NVDA and only implemented it for me
because I insisted. He was also dead set against mac and has had to rethink
that position too. :-)

I've told the story many times about going into the interview at the call
centre back in 16. It looked like they were gung hoe to hire me. Their IT
guy that I was working with said, "thank god you really wanted NVDA. Jaws
won't even load up on our systems for testing." He also told me they would
script NVDA in house using their python programmers. I didn't get hired,
but I don't think it had anything to do with equipment and resources.

Hope this helps,


Monte Single
 

I've been using nvda with m s outlook for several years and have had no real
problems.
I am certain I am not the only person with this experience.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Andy B.
Sent: August-25-19 4:10 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in Emploandenp

A few things here.

1. NVDA has been the most standards compliant for years, at least that you
know of... Do you have documentation that NVDA is the most standards
compliant Windows-based screen reader? I wouldn't call NVDA standards
compliant when the only effective email client NVDA works with is the
web-based version of Gmail. When TB sometimes lags for hours, Windows 10
Mail doesn't read well and you have to make use of notepad to type email,
and NVDA+Outlook results in the error bell going off like the closing bell
on Wallstreet, it doesn't sound very compliant. There are truck loads of
other issues, but I digress.
2. Software developers are increasingly required to create standards
compliant software. Do you have evidence from the U.S. Supreme court or
other international governing body that standards compliant software is an
absolute must? If so, what are those standards and penalties for violating
the standards? This sounds more like an advocacy problem than an NVDA/JAWS
problem. Each platform seems to have its own set of standards. UIA for
Microsoft, IAccessible and IAccessible2 for browsers and most desktop
software, atspi for Linux systems, and who knows what for MAC? In fact,
Windows has implemented UIA since 2016, but NVDA still uses IA2 for most
desktop/application access, and if they don't, they hide it in their APIs.
3. It is foolish to claim open source is not safe in the workplace. You seem
to be taking this point from an NVDA users perspective. If you take it from
the typical IT manager's perspective, the light turns in a different
direction. Assuming the IT department isn't familiar with Python, IA2, UIA,
and focused objects, scripting in Python becomes a problem. Besides, most AT
software and hardware gains popularity through a good marketing plan. NVDA
doesn't seem to have a good marketing plan, else they would have become
direct competitor's with JAWS. In any case, most IT managers have no clue
about AT and how it works. Thus, they will go with the product most
advertised and sought after in the accessibility space.
4. Surprising your disability support person even knew the difference
between JAWS and NVDA. Most schools never heard of them, or if they have,
know nothing about what they do or how they work.
5. The point of AT software and hardware is to gain access to, and use the
accessibility framework implemented in the operating system. Its other job
is to compensate for a lack in such accessibility framework. Hence, why JAWS
works better in VS code and Visual Studio better than NVDA, especially with
autocomplete.

Andy Borka
Accessibility Engineer

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of erik burggraaf
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 2:27 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in Emploandenp

Hi Kelby
On August 25, 2019 7:39:31 AM "kelby carlson" <kelbycarlson@gmail.com>
wrote:


I hope this isn't too off-topic. I recently heard an argument that NVDA is
bad for blind prospect's in employment because it is the "dumbed down"
solution.

That sounds like the blather of some one who recommended commercial screen
readers for 20 years and is now having their apple cart upset. I've seen
this time and time again and will keep seeing it as long as accessibility is
a thing. When some one has to use dirision rather than fact to steer you
away from one product and ttowards another, an alarm bell should shreek in
your head.

The person arguing this elaborated, saying that NVDA is not
customizable/flexible enough (too chatty"),

This is a matter of personal preference, but I can make NVDA do the common
things such as punctuation level that I sometimes need to configure.

that it was not able to be scripted as easily,

Now, I have heard argued the other point that NVDA is easier to scrypt than
jaws and I subscribe to this view. Consider, there are many more python
programmers in the world than jaws scripters. A company can script NVDA in
house using their own IT department. Otherwise, the company needs to
outsource jaws scripting to an access technology professional. The prices I
have seen quoted range from $500 per hour to $150 per line.
it didn't work well with as much proprietary software,

An argument that shows no understanding of access technology trends. It is
no longer the purview of a screen reader to work with particular software.
In the current and emerging model, an operating system creates accessibility
API's that comply with recognized standards. Screen readers provide access
using the API's and standards. Software manufacturers are increasingly
legally and socially obligated to comply with accessibility standards and
implement API's and ffeatures for accessibility provided by the system.
Employers are increasingly legally and socially obligated to procure
technology hardware and software that complies with accessibility standards
so that it can work with access technologies. NVDA has been considered the
most standards compliant screen rreader for several years as far as I know,.

and that it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open
source.

Extrordinarily foolish. If open source software is insecure, why is it
powering the commercial internet? If commercial software is inherantly
secure, why do we need to spend billians of dollars protecting windows
against viruses? NVD'S licencing makes it time and cost efficient to
install across large networks such as call centre floors holding thousands
of computer workstations. If your corporate network is secure, than running
NVDA can't possibly be less secure than running say adobe reader, which is
a known constantly volnerable commercial product.

So my question is this: how many people here use NVDA for work,

I do. I'm a compuuter programming student working as a web application
developer for wholenote media in Toronto. I've experienced some of the
things members are saying about programming tools such as long delays using
intelisense. Not 30 seconds but finger-chompingly long lag. This is the
fault of software developers such as Microsoft for not complying with
standards or even properly implementing their own API's. At least, if you
want me to consider that there might be something in NVDA causing severe lag
in microsoft intelisense, how about giving us full access to xaml designer,
rad tools, and unit testing among other things. If ms could say their
product was up to snuff, then I'd consider that there's an ineficiency in
NVDA. Otherwise, autocomplete works well for me in browsers and in VSCode
though I haven't tried in notepadplusplus with the add on.
We can talk about it when visual studio becomes truly viable for
accessibility.

and is there a notable dilerence in level of usability with JAWS?

I couldn't speak to this. I haven't used jaws since the days of 4.5. I
have provided some computer training on jaws systems though and have
experienced significant frustration using google chrome, excel 2016, windows
10 mail, and other things. In helping jaws users the last year or so, I've
seen an issue where displaying web content poops out. Jaws scripts still
have a bent for corrupting themselves and needing to be re-installed. And
they still haven't figured out how to deal with issues such as laptops
switching video cards for various power profiles and ditching the
authorization.

I was at the college last week getting set up for my fall semester classes.
When I sat down with my access technologist, a nondisabled college
employee, he imediately expressed frustration to me over use of jaws in the
college. He told me that in general nvda was working much better on college
systems than jaws, nvda is superior at the maths I have to do this semester
compared to jaws, and he thought for it's effectiveness, jaws was way over
priced. This is a complete turnaround from 2.5 years ago when I was
registering for courses. At that time, jaws was everything according to
this guy. He was extremely skeptical of NVDA and only implemented it for me
because I insisted. He was also dead set against mac and has had to rethink
that position too. :-)

I've told the story many times about going into the interview at the call
centre back in 16. It looked like they were gung hoe to hire me. Their IT
guy that I was working with said, "thank god you really wanted NVDA. Jaws
won't even load up on our systems for testing." He also told me they would
script NVDA in house using their python programmers. I didn't get hired,
but I don't think it had anything to do with equipment and resources.

Hope this helps,