tracking down NVDA triggers


Giles Turnbull
 

Hi all,

It must be over a year ago that I mentioned that, on my Asus laptop, NVDA would consistently and apparently randomly, announce the current program's title bar. Replies came to the conclusion that something was triggering NVDA's focus to switch away and then back to what was the active window, causing NVDA to re-announce the window's titlebar.

I haven't been experienceing this for the last year because I got a new Dell laptop which doesn't suffer this effect. But, after the death of my Dell I'm back on the Asus and I'm puzzled what might be triggering this.

Is there any way through the debugging logs to figure out what is causing NVDA to do this?

On this laptop I'm using NVDA 2019.2 and Windows 10 Version 1903 (OS Build 18362.356)

Thanks for any thoughts ... I've not used NVDA with logging enabled before.

Giles


 

Giles,

            There is likely some corruption in your Windows 10 installation itself that needs to be remedied.  The probability of this being an NVDA-based issue is very small indeed, particularly if you've already tried uninstalling NVDA and reinstalling it.


My standard advice, in virtually all cases, (and presuming any potential infection has already been addressed, first) is trying the following, in the order specified.  If the issue is fixed by option one then there's no need to go further.  Stop whenever your issue is fixed:


1. 
Using SFC (System File Checker) and DISM (Deployment Imaging Servicing and Management) to Repair Windows 8 & 10 


2. 
Doing a Windows 10 Repair Install or Feature Update Using the Windows 10 ISO file


3. Doing a completely clean reinstall (options a & b are downloadable PDF files):

           a) Completely Clean Win10 (Re)install Using MCT to Download Win10 ISO File

           b) Completely Clean Win10 (Re)install Using MCT to Create a Bootable USB Drive

           c) How to do a CLEAN Installation of Windows 10  (Tom’s Hardware Forums, with screen shots)

I never choose the “thermonuclear option,” the completely clean reinstall, until it's clear that this is the only viable option. I hate having to go through all the work of reconfiguring a machine from scratch if that can reasonably and safely be avoided.

 

 


--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 


John Isige
 

I'm sorry, but WTF? Some dude's getting a program's title read to him
periodically, and the conclusion is, yeah dude you might want to more or
less reinstall Windows. That's like, option number one? I also notice
there's no explanation whatsoever as to how we're supposedly concluding
this is a Windows issue worthy of some sort of reinstallation. I'm
sorry, this just seems irresponsible, even with things like the Windows
10 reset where you can reinstall but preserve files and data.


I don't know the answer, about how to chase it down from the logs, but
it seems to me a much more readily apparent answer is that another
program is running in the background and stealing focus, or making NVDA
think focus has changed. I don't see how it automatically means that
Windows itself has been corrupted in any way whatsoever.


Suppose for instance, there's a download manager running in the
background, and it flashes its window or such to get your attention. It
seems entirely possible to me that such a benign event could be
temporarily stealing NVDA's focus. I've had this occur before, often it
will repeatedly read the first item on the desktop, both with NVDA and
under NVDA remote. So far as I know, both of my machines are good in
terms of Windows, I'm not noticing any other issues whatsoever. It
happens so infrequently that I've never worried about it.

On 10/1/2019 9:17, Brian Vogel wrote:
Giles,

            There is likely some corruption in your Windows 10
installation itself that needs to be remedied.  The probability of
this being an NVDA-based issue is very small indeed, particularly if
you've already tried uninstalling NVDA and reinstalling it.


My standard advice, in virtually all cases, (and presuming any
potential infection has already been addressed, first) is trying the
following, in the order specified.  If the issue is fixed by option
one then there's no need to go further.  Stop whenever your issue is
fixed:

1. */Using SFC (System File Checker) and DISM (Deployment Imaging
Servicing and Management) to Repair Windows 8 & 10/*
<https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B98uELZbPFnOc2l4M0Y1V3pkcGM>


2. */Doing a Windows 10 Repair Install or Feature Update Using the
Windows 10 ISO file/*
<https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1RZiHlLVtXewYBgoSvJNm9_08hj1tALPK>


3. Doing a completely clean reinstall (options *a* & *b* are
downloadable PDF files):

           a) */Completely Clean Win10 (Re)install Using MCT to
Download Win10 ISO File/*
<https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1hHoEnSz2YWHyztOO3ZjXtV2y4gQASoMR>

           b) */Completely Clean Win10 (Re)install Using MCT to Create
a Bootable USB Drive/*
<https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1cvsT64KAwz5ZJmiPfBQlUDBOoskb9dDO>

           c) */How to do a CLEAN Installation of Windows 10/*
<https://forums.tomshardware.com/faq/how-to-do-a-clean-installation-of-windows-10.3170366/>(/Tom’s
Hardware Forums/, with screen shots)

I */_never_/* choose the “/thermonuclear option/,” the completely
clean reinstall, until it's clear that this is the only viable option.
I hate having to go through all the work of reconfiguring a machine
from scratch if that can reasonably and safely be avoided.

__


--

Brian *-*Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362

*The color of truth is grey.*

           ~ André Gide


 

On Tue, Oct 1, 2019 at 12:33 PM, John Isige wrote:
I'm sorry, but WTF? Some dude's getting a program's title read to him
periodically, and the conclusion is, yeah dude you might want to more or
less reinstall Windows.
No, it isn't.   I cannot help if you cannot be bothered to read, and comprehend, the advice given.  You might want to think about that before spouting off garbage like this again.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 


 

Hi Brian,

Actually, for this one, I think John’s advice is a bit better – I myself have experienced it on my ThinkPad, and it appears to be an event-related problem. To truly find out what’s up, you need to run NVDA in debug mode (restart NVDA with debug logging enabled) and capture the log output (it’ll print all sorts of things). Only after trying to figure out what’s up with NVDA should we look into SFC.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2019 10:16 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] tracking down NVDA triggers

 

On Tue, Oct 1, 2019 at 12:33 PM, John Isige wrote:

I'm sorry, but WTF? Some dude's getting a program's title read to him
periodically, and the conclusion is, yeah dude you might want to more or
less reinstall Windows.

No, it isn't.   I cannot help if you cannot be bothered to read, and comprehend, the advice given.  You might want to think about that before spouting off garbage like this again.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 


 

On Tue, Oct 1, 2019 at 01:23 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Only after trying to figure out what’s up with NVDA should we look into SFC.
Joseph, given what was offered in the original message, I am willing to presume that NVDA debugging, including a possible uninstall/reinstall, has already taken place.  Perhaps it hasn't, but then I'd hope that might be tried as a step.

I stand by my advice, which does not include doing a completely clean reinstall unless all other methods fail.  Doing an SFC and DISM as "good housekeeping" hurts absolutely nothing, and can also serve as a diagnostic step.

There are multiple ways to come at any problem, and I am not about to allow my advice to be grossly mischaracterized.   It's a fairly simple matter to do some significant "Windows 10 Health Checks" to see if something could be wrong.  It has been my experience that when uncharacteristic behaviors such as those described are occurring it's generally not the application program that's at fault.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 


 

Hi,

I’m thinking not – as in debugging steps didn’t take place from what I can tell.

To Giles, can you try running NVDA in debug mode, and as soon as you hear NVDA repeat an info you don’t want to hear, send a log (press NVDA+F1 to open the log and copoy and paste everything as an email) to me and Quentin so we can diagnose what’s up? I’m requesting logs in private because it may contain sensitive information. Be sure to CC info@... with the precise description of the problem when sending the log to us.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2019 10:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] tracking down NVDA triggers

 

On Tue, Oct 1, 2019 at 01:23 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Only after trying to figure out what’s up with NVDA should we look into SFC.

Joseph, given what was offered in the original message, I am willing to presume that NVDA debugging, including a possible uninstall/reinstall, has already taken place.  Perhaps it hasn't, but then I'd hope that might be tried as a step.

I stand by my advice, which does not include doing a completely clean reinstall unless all other methods fail.  Doing an SFC and DISM as "good housekeeping" hurts absolutely nothing, and can also serve as a diagnostic step.

There are multiple ways to come at any problem, and I am not about to allow my advice to be grossly mischaracterized.   It's a fairly simple matter to do some significant "Windows 10 Health Checks" to see if something could be wrong.  It has been my experience that when uncharacteristic behaviors such as those described are occurring it's generally not the application program that's at fault.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 


tim
 

I have to go with John on this one.
If you have any third party virus or malware hunters. Then you can have screen notifications pop up and go . With those any screen reader acts the same way.
So I would look for notifications and maintenance software that came with the laptop. All have some type for updating drivers.

On Oct 1, 2019, at 1:33 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:

Hi,
I’m thinking not – as in debugging steps didn’t take place from what I can tell.
To Giles, can you try running NVDA in debug mode, and as soon as you hear NVDA repeat an info you don’t want to hear, send a log (press NVDA+F1 to open the log and copoy and paste everything as an email) to me and Quentin so we can diagnose what’s up? I’m requesting logs in private because it may contain sensitive information. Be sure to CC info@... with the precise description of the problem when sending the log to us.
Cheers,
Joseph
 
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2019 10:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] tracking down NVDA triggers
 
On Tue, Oct 1, 2019 at 01:23 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Only after trying to figure out what’s up with NVDA should we look into SFC.
Joseph, given what was offered in the original message, I am willing to presume that NVDA debugging, including a possible uninstall/reinstall, has already taken place.  Perhaps it hasn't, but then I'd hope that might be tried as a step.

I stand by my advice, which does not include doing a completely clean reinstall unless all other methods fail.  Doing an SFC and DISM as "good housekeeping" hurts absolutely nothing, and can also serve as a diagnostic step.

There are multiple ways to come at any problem, and I am not about to allow my advice to be grossly mischaracterized.   It's a fairly simple matter to do some significant "Windows 10 Health Checks" to see if something could be wrong.  It has been my experience that when uncharacteristic behaviors such as those described are occurring it's generally not the application program that's at fault.
 
-- 
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  
The color of truth is grey.
           ~ André Gide

 

 



Giles Turnbull
 

Thanks, particularly to Joseph and John. I've never used debugging mode so Joseph's info is helpful. I will do that and send the logs once I have recorded it happening :)

Giles


Gene
 

I suspect something is causing a focus problem but we really don't have enough information to do more than speculate.  My recollection is that NVDA doesn't automatically read the title bar when it changes.  I think that would be a good user controlled feature. 
 
That aside, if something is taking focus, then returning it, I would expect this behavior.  But I think discussion of whether NVDA should have an automatically read the title bar or text changes feature in the title bar might be useful.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: tim
Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2019 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] tracking down NVDA triggers

I have to go with John on this one.
If you have any third party virus or malware hunters. Then you can have screen notifications pop up and go . With those any screen reader acts the same way.
So I would look for notifications and maintenance software that came with the laptop. All have some type for updating drivers.

On Oct 1, 2019, at 1:33 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:

Hi,
I’m thinking not – as in debugging steps didn’t take place from what I can tell.
To Giles, can you try running NVDA in debug mode, and as soon as you hear NVDA repeat an info you don’t want to hear, send a log (press NVDA+F1 to open the log and copoy and paste everything as an email) to me and Quentin so we can diagnose what’s up? I’m requesting logs in private because it may contain sensitive information. Be sure to CC info@... with the precise description of the problem when sending the log to us.
Cheers,
Joseph
 
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2019 10:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] tracking down NVDA triggers
 
On Tue, Oct 1, 2019 at 01:23 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Only after trying to figure out what’s up with NVDA should we look into SFC.
Joseph, given what was offered in the original message, I am willing to presume that NVDA debugging, including a possible uninstall/reinstall, has already taken place.  Perhaps it hasn't, but then I'd hope that might be tried as a step.

I stand by my advice, which does not include doing a completely clean reinstall unless all other methods fail.  Doing an SFC and DISM as "good housekeeping" hurts absolutely nothing, and can also serve as a diagnostic step.

There are multiple ways to come at any problem, and I am not about to allow my advice to be grossly mischaracterized.   It's a fairly simple matter to do some significant "Windows 10 Health Checks" to see if something could be wrong.  It has been my experience that when uncharacteristic behaviors such as those described are occurring it's generally not the application program that's at fault.
 
-- 
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  
The color of truth is grey.
           ~ André Gide