If the web app you are using is independent of a browser. In other word is self-contained browser like skype, Visual Code Editor and others. Then what is available to you is very restrictive. As the screen reader is fully dependent on what is revealed by this style of app via the accessibility framework like UIA, MSAA or iaccess2. If you cannot write a plugin, then you will have very limited access to available information.

If the app is usable in any browser, then you have more flexibility and there are extension based upon Javascript that permits you to modify the web page. You require knowledge in JavaScript languages to modify the page.

A general overview how web pages regardless if they are stand-alone apps or uses any web browser work:
* the web page is loaded.
* The DOM is populated (Document Object Model).
* the accessibility tree of the browser is populated which has the required information for a assistive technology product.
* The accessibility API (framework) like UIA is populated by the browser.
* the screen reader then interrogates the accessibility API or the browser directly.
There is more complexity to what I have outlined above. But this gives a general overview how information flows.


NVDA might be able to get more information but you need to learn python, the accessibility API and possibly a bunch of other API information to get the information you want. A major learning curve for yourself. Where it would be far cost effective for your energy and time to reach out to the owner of the product to make the require changes.

Sean

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Damien Garwood
Sent: Sunday, 13 October 2019 7:16 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

Hi Robert,
Those are actually very interesting questions. I have theories, but that's all they are. I'm sure someone who is more expert on this topic will correct me if it turns out I'm wrong, which I'm sure I probably am.
The simple answer first. Announcements for several document elements (table headers, clickable items, links, headings etc) can be enabled or disabled through the document formatting section of the settings dialog.
Other than that, the only way to really customise what is spoken by NVDA (such as changing control type text, changing spoken order etc) is through scripting.
Now for my theories. Scripting web app enhancements with NVDA wouldn't be as simple as making an app module for several reasons.
1. NVDA has its own internal stuff that allows it to do its browse/focus mode thing. This could interfere with web apps that you might think can be scripted as app modules (those packaged as executables like Skype and so on).
2. The web browser is just a host for the app, and so I'm guessing NVDA can't get to it the same way it gets to a standard desktop control. Even apps packaged as their own executables like Skype are actually using Chrome/Chromium/whatever it's called these days.
3. Bear in mind that different browsers have different rules for rendering controls and information, and so unfortunately it wouldn't be a uniform process.
Having said that. There are several accessibility API's that NVDA has, over the years, managed to smack under one umbrella. So I'm guessing that's only a matter of time before the same can be done for web browsers, and eventually, web apps.
As for profiles. My guess is that those can be used in the normal way for web apps that come as executables, but would be difficult to set up for external websites, for similar reasons. The profile would be triggered by the browser, not the app itself.
Cheers,
Damien.

On 12/10/2019 07:21 pm, Robert Logue wrote:

1: Is it difficult for users to script NVDA for web applications?


2: Is there a standard way to customize what is spoken?


3: Does NVDA have a way to set up individual profiles for each web
application?


Thanks.


Bob


On 2019-10-07 8:51 a.m., Gene wrote:

So, how do you skip all that? I don't use GMail on the Internet
except to look at the spam filter now and then. I am not familiar
with the supplied short cuts. But any time you want to jump from
message to message, typing x in browse mode takes you to the check
box for the next message. You hear, as I recall, the subject line
and the name of the sender.
But there are ways of skipping unwanted material and the fact that
they are not well known indicates poor training or poor training
materials being widely used.
The find command is one of the most useful but under or unused
feature. What is the last consistent line before the message text,
or the synopsis, begins? Find it by looking from the check box down
on more than one message. You will see a pattern.
Do a search for that line and you can then do the following:
x to move to the next message.
Repeat search, you have already searched once by entering the search
string, then down arrow once and read to end.
After you do this enough to have it become second nature, it will be
reasonably fast and efficient.
You can't be a good Internet user in more complex areas of a web page
if you rely on what I refer to as "the kindness of strangers.", as is
famously said by a character in A Street Car Named Desire.
The number of blind people, even those who are generally good
computer users, who don't know how to do what I'm describing is clear
evidence of the inadequate and poor training received.
I don't use web applications enough to discuss the general questions
presented here, but GMail isn't a web application in the sense that
Google Docx (spelling) is. It is a layout but you aren't working
with an application embedded in the page.
And you will see lots of times when doing things such as I describe
is important for efficient navigation.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Devin Prater <mailto:r.d.t.prater@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Monday, October 07, 2019 8:44 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

On no, it says “Reply, reply all, forward…” all that, even if you use
the keyboard commands to move to the next or previous message.

On Oct 7, 2019, at 8:14 AM, Hope Williamson <hopeisjoyful@gmail.com

<mailto:hopeisjoyful@gmail.com>> wrote:

There's no reason to leave out normal header information. In other

words, the sender, date, time, and the fact that it's from you. If
it's like the IP you're referring to, then that's different.

1: Is it difficult for users to script NVDA for web applications?


2: Is there a standard way to customize what is spoken?


3: Does NVDA have a way to set up individual profiles for each web
application?


Thanks.


Bob


On 2019-10-07 8:51 a.m., Gene wrote:

So, how do you skip all that? I don't use GMail on the Internet
except to look at the spam filter now and then. I am not familiar
with the supplied short cuts. But any time you want to jump from
message to message, typing x in browse mode takes you to the check
box for the next message. You hear, as I recall, the subject line
and the name of the sender.
But there are ways of skipping unwanted material and the fact that
they are not well known indicates poor training or poor training
materials being widely used.
The find command is one of the most useful but under or unused
feature. What is the last consistent line before the message text,
or the synopsis, begins? Find it by looking from the check box down
on more than one message. You will see a pattern.
Do a search for that line and you can then do the following:
x to move to the next message.
Repeat search, you have already searched once by entering the search
string, then down arrow once and read to end.
After you do this enough to have it become second nature, it will be
reasonably fast and efficient.
You can't be a good Internet user in more complex areas of a web page
if you rely on what I refer to as "the kindness of strangers.", as is
famously said by a character in A Street Car Named Desire.
The number of blind people, even those who are generally good
computer users, who don't know how to do what I'm describing is clear
evidence of the inadequate and poor training received.
I don't use web applications enough to discuss the general questions
presented here, but GMail isn't a web application in the sense that
Google Docx (spelling) is. It is a layout but you aren't working
with an application embedded in the page.
And you will see lots of times when doing things such as I describe
is important for efficient navigation.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Devin Prater <mailto:r.d.t.prater@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Monday, October 07, 2019 8:44 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

On no, it says “Reply, reply all, forward…” all that, even if you use
the keyboard commands to move to the next or previous message.

On Oct 7, 2019, at 8:14 AM, Hope Williamson <hopeisjoyful@gmail.com

<mailto:hopeisjoyful@gmail.com>> wrote:

There's no reason to leave out normal header information. In other

words, the sender, date, time, and the fact that it's from you. If
it's like the IP you're referring to, then that's different.

1: Is it difficult for users to script NVDA for web applications?
2: Is there a standard way to customize what is spoken?
3: Does NVDA have a way to set up individual profiles for each web application?
Thanks.
Bob
On 2019-10-07 8:51 a.m., Gene wrote:

So, how do you skip all that?  I don't use GMail on the Internet except to look at the spam filter now and then.  I am not familiar with the supplied short cuts.  But any time you want to jump from message to message, typing x in browse mode takes you to the check box for the next message.  You hear, as I recall, the subject line and the name of the sender.
But there are ways of skipping unwanted material and the fact that they are not well known indicates poor training or poor training materials being widely used.
The find command is one of the most useful but under or unused feature.  What is the last consistent line before the message text, or the synopsis, begins?  Find it by looking from the check box down on more than one message.  You will see a pattern.
Do a search for that line and you can then do the following:
x to move to the next message.
Repeat search, you have already searched once by entering the search string, then down arrow once and read to end.
After you do this enough to have it become second nature, it will be reasonably fast and efficient.
You can't be a good Internet user in more complex areas of a web page if you rely on what I refer to as "the kindness of strangers.", as is famously said by a character in A Street Car Named Desire.
The number of blind people, even those who are generally good computer users, who don't know how to do what I'm describing is clear evidence of the inadequate and poor training received.
I don't use web applications enough to discuss the general questions presented here, but GMail isn't a web application in the sense that Google Docx (spelling) is.  It is a layout but you aren't working with an application embedded in the page.
And you will see lots of times when doing things such as I describe is important for efficient navigation.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Devin Prater <mailto:r.d.t.prater@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Monday, October 07, 2019 8:44 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

On no, it says “Reply, reply all, forward…” all that, even if you use the keyboard commands to move to the next or previous message.

On Oct 7, 2019, at 8:14 AM, Hope Williamson <hopeisjoyful@gmail.com

<mailto:hopeisjoyful@gmail.com>> wrote:

There's no reason to leave out normal header information. In other

words, the sender, date, time, and the fact that it's from you. If it's like the IP you're referring to, then that's different.

So, how do you skip all that?  I don't use GMail on the Internet except to look at the spam filter now and then.  I am not familiar with the supplied short cuts.  But any time you want to jump from message to message, typing x in browse mode takes you to the check box for the next message.  You hear, as I recall, the subject line and the name of the sender. 

 

But there are ways of skipping unwanted material and the fact that they are not well known indicates poor training or poor training materials being widely used.

 

The find command is one of the most useful but under or unused feature.  What is the last consistent line before the message text, or the synopsis, begins?  Find it by looking from the check box down on more than one message.  You will see a pattern.

Do a search for that line and you can then do the following:

x to move to the next message.

Repeat search, you have already searched once by entering the search string, then down arrow once and read to end.

After you do this enough to have it become second nature, it will be reasonably fast and efficient.

 

You can't be a good Internet user in more complex areas of a web page if you rely on what I refer to as "the kindness of strangers.", as is famously said by a character in A Street Car Named Desire.

 

The number of blind people, even those who are generally good computer users, who don't know how to do what I'm describing is clear evidence of the inadequate and poor training received.

 

I don't use web applications enough to discuss the general questions presented here, but GMail isn't a web application in the sense that Google Docx (spelling) is.  It is a layout but you aren't working with an application embedded in the page.

 

And you will see lots of times when doing things such as I describe is important for efficient navigation.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Devin Prater

Sent: Monday, October 07, 2019 8:44 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

On no, it says “Reply, reply all, forward…” all that, even if you use the keyboard commands to move to the next or previous message.

> On Oct 7, 2019, at 8:14 AM, Hope Williamson <hopeisjoyful@...> wrote:
>
> There's no reason to leave out normal header information. In other words, the sender, date, time, and the fact that it's from you. If it's like the IP you're referring to, then that's different.
>
>
>

Hello everyone,


Having used several Web applications in the last few years, I've been wondering why we still want desktop applications and claim for accessibility.  This thread is more to ask for opinion on the matter and perhaps, collect useful ideas we can shape into NVDA features or suggest to web application designers.  This is not a "plea for help" topic, but I don't think I'm breaking list rules (I hope not anyway), as this could benefit NVDA and is not a trivial issue.


Web apps are trendy.  And that's probably going to last for awhile, if not replace our Desktop applicaitons.  But for us, is it really a good news?  Why does a Desktop app tends to feel "more accessible" than a web app?  The thing is, there are lots of reasons why we appreciate our Desktop applications and get frustrated when we have to get the web application if a Desktop equivalent doesn't exist.  Beyond the fact that we're "used" to how an application works (which, obviously, is not the case when there's no Desktop equivalent), a website is in most cases incredibly more complex for us.  First of all, there are two navigation modes to understand and switch between instead of just one plain "way to do things".  There's no clear menubar and when we get an accessible menu, we can clap and send cookies to the web designer.  Sometimes (but not often) there's a real context menu we can really, you know, invoke from the application key and browse through the arrow keys.  And sometimes (often, to be sure), there are shortcuts to perform "standard" operations in the web app.


So do we just need to rethink our expectation of what an accessible application mean?  Some would say "come on! instead of using H and shift-H in Facebook app to browse posts, you use J and K, big deal!" But that's a big deal, because keyboard shortcuts are far from consistent.  Instead of screen reader shortcuts which can be somewhat standard and usable in most Desktop applications, web designers working on web applications feel like creating shortcuts that don't always make sense for screen reader users. Some conflicts with screen reader operations.  Some are just strange.  A user on this list asked if they could find an "accessible Facebook client".  Others said "Facebook is accessible".  While I agree 9I do use Facebook myself) I would tend to agree with the original poster: a web application is just not as simple as, say, a nice tree view with recent posts when you can just press the right-arrow to see the comments, or reactions, and press the application key to like, love, comment yourself.  I don't mean to critize Facebook here: they did a good job or creating such an application.  And I've seen much more problematic in terms of web apps.  I just want to point out there's a significant difference between a web application and desktop application in terms of accessibility.


So the answer to this thread, for me, would be "no".  Web applications are manageable.  They're not as accessible as a Desktop application for us.  And, might I say it, I doubt they ever will.  But let's remain optimistic here: there might be ways to improve global web applications on a screen reader level, not on an individual level.  Gmail is often quoted as being one of the best web application out there, regarding accessibility.  And frankly I really like it.  I would use it, but... yeah, I still use Thunderbird, just because some keyboard shortcuts feel awkward and I have other accounts that are not fortunate enough to use Gmail.  So perhaps I'm mistaken and web applications can and should improve.  In which case, perhaps we should just discuss means to bring the bad news to web designers.  I do it on an individual level when seeing a web application I can't access. But our efforts might be best invested in a group or something similar.


So, if this post is not too much frowned upon by NVDA moderators (I guess it could just be considered off-topic), I would really appreciate your thoughts on that.


Thanks in advance,


Vincent



.

Hello,

My thoughts on web apps is that many sites use web apps these days, and it makes accessing the sites with the web apps easier in many cases.

In Gmail, users can use up/down arrow keys to traverse the list of emails. Pressing left arrow places focus in the navigation bar. Pressing enter opens an email. Pressing n/p moves between emails in the thread. Pressing x selects the email in order to do batch operations on emails. Pressing r replies, pressing a does a reply all.

These methods of navigating are so much faster than doing a find, using basic HTML, or whatever else users do to navigate Gmail. If you are unfamiliar with web apps, you would still be using basic HTML with all of its limitations.

Twitter also has a list of these keyboard shortcuts. As does Facebook. As did Google Plus. As does Google Play Music. As does Youtube to some extent.

Whether users choose to use web apps or not is dependent on them and how likely they are to adapt to a new way of navigating. I think web apps can improve efficiency, but knowing to navigate without web apps is important as well.

In the NVDA user guide, under section 6.1, there is an option of pressing NVDA+shift+space which disables browse mode commands for a particular webpage and allows the use of browse mode and web app commands. I typically don't use this, and often just turn off browse mode, but this really is up to the user to choose how to best use NVDA.

Thanks.

On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 9:23 AM molly the blind tech lover <brainardmolly@...> wrote:

When I received training it was with Jaws, and one of the first things I was taught  was how to use the elements list. I taught myself how to use NVDA when I got home, because there was no one else. I like to think I am pretty competent with NVDA, though I am certainly no expert.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Monday, October 7, 2019 12:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

 

I don't think blind people should be taught the elements list until they have thoroughly mastered the find command and other ways to navigate.  Yet a lot of instructional material teaches the elements list very early.  It is not anything like any structure on the web page and it separates the user from the web page and makes teaching looking at context more difficult. 

 

Once the student has mastered other ways of working with web pages, there is plenty of time to teach this completely artificial structure.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

 

From: Hope Williamson

Sent: Monday, October 07, 2019 10:58 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

 

I enjoy using the find function as well. Particularly on lengthy pages
with lots of links and/or information. Navigating with the elements list
would just take too long. This is useful on my RSS reader web page for
instance. I subscribe to a whole bunch of feeds, over 300.

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The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
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you, and have a great day!

We've "gotten very meta" on this topic, but this is a perfect example of where the meta information is hugely important and helpful.

One thing I feel needs to be added with regard to training, as I'm someone who does it, is that it is generally tightly constrained both by time and money (the former of which almost always being a function of availability of the latter).   It is impossible to teach everything about a screen reader, or even close to it, and I know of no one, including individuals who are far, far, far more skilled than myself with a given screen reader knowing anything close to everything about it.   We do what we can with what we know, will admit what we don't know, and will try to research questions that we don't know the answer to in real time during training when that's feasible and before the next session when not.

Both instructors and users will find themselves in positions where they have to dig for information, and often from multiple sources, and the more arcane the information the more likely it is that turning to groups like this will be necessary and, quite often, the fastest way to get an answer.   There's almost invariably someone else who's suffered through the same issue you're facing.

That being said, anyone receiving screen reader training that's focused on beginners needs to realize that this is exactly what you're getting.  The intent is to get you up and running and able to do "the most common and simple things" yourself quickly.  These basic skills are meant to be built upon by ongoing independent study.   Basic training will never focus on advanced skills and, if you have a good instructor, they will have told you enough about how to start noodling around and looking at your screen reader settings and/or search those (which I hope will become possible in NVDA in the foreseeable future) so that you can do your own problem solving.  And that's not to say you shouldn't ask for help, either, but sometimes help will not be forthcoming and it will be you, and your own tenacity and initiative, that ultimately uncovers the solution.  Then you'll be the subject matter expert for a particular arcane issue when someone asks about it in the future.

And it isn't just screen readers where all of the above applies.   After more than 30 years in the computing world I can tell you it applies universally when it comes to training and learning any complex software (or any complex thing outside the computing world, for that matter - think musical instruments for a very clear example).  Also accept that except in very constrained circumstances, practice seldom makes perfect, just much better.  You have to decide what's good enough for you and your purposes.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 

I use the find function to find the MyCommnet,  where you log in  on my school’s website. Otherwise you’d have to activate the elements list and press the letter m until you hear MyCommnet.

The find dialog really saves me time. I just love NVDA

 😂

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Monday, October 7, 2019 11:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

 

I actually rarely use the find function on for example http://restream.io I jut use elements list to get to title, then social to update my stuff and e to get to the firs the edit field. Man I hope one day I can edit this stuff using the app as it is just more convenient.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on youtube, twitch and mixer. Thanks Restream staff.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 7 Oct 2019, at 8:22, Devin Prater wrote:

Yes, I do like the Find function. I teach my students to use that, over the commonly taught “elements list” dinosaur. Seriously, when a website is mainly reading, the elements list skips so much, and it only makes a blind person’s life harder because if that element isn’t there anymore, or it changes from a link to a button, well there ya go. But if it’s a web app we’re working with, I try to use it as “natively” as possible, turning on focus mode, using Tab, shift+Tab, and keyboard shortcuts as much as possible.

On Oct 7, 2019, at 10:08 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

 

On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 10:51 AM, Gene wrote:

But there are ways of skipping unwanted material and the fact that they are not well known indicates poor training or poor training materials being widely used.

 

The find command is one of the most useful but under or unused feature.

Indeed.   What's worse is how often I see people making the assertion, "You can't do {insert thing X}," which I know for fact you can do, and have been able to do for years.   Or stating that something is inaccessible not because it's actually inaccessible, but because they do not know how to access it.   That's one of the very reasons that questions of the form, "Is {insert program or app here} accessible with NVDA?," are allowed and encouraged on this group.  Though one can install and play with things, and actually should, when a given program either costs money and/or is quite complex it makes perfect sense to try to determine whether it's accessible or not before investing a lot of time in playing with it.   One good thing about groups, though, is that you can easily figure out when an incorrect assertion has been made based upon the typical flow of, "That's just not the case," often accompanied by instructions on how to access something that follows it.

And the screen reader find is one of the most handy and grossly underused features for "quick and dirty" movement around a given cyber landscape that I know of.  One of the tutorials I wrote ages ago,Mass Selection and Deletion of Gmail Messages via the Gmail Web Interface, was in response to several assertions of the "you can't do that, at all" nature that were offered.  And if you don't use the screen reader find function (see step 3) it is impossible to do, but with it, well . . .
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 

 

On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 12:26 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

You can do that or go into the elements list and quickly type the element name

The problem with this theory is it relies upon the web page developer to have bothered to have structured the page well, and often they don't.

I have nothing against the elements list, and teach people how to use it, but one needs to approach it with caution and use it in combination with other tools.  You can't count on something "not being there" because it's not in any one of the elements lists (whether in NVDA, JAWS, or any other screen reader).   You can be assured that if you do both a screen reader find and, if necessary, a straight application program find as well and can't find something that it's really not there.  I often use straight find commands when a visual scan doesn't immediately turn up what I think should be there, but I can't spot.  It's the same concept - knowing how to double and sometimes triple check yourself.

I don't think that anyone, including myself, is saying one should never use tool X or tool Y.   Being aware of the limitations of tool X and tool Y, which may mean you need to resort to tool Z upon occasion, is, however, vital.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 

I use the find function to find the MyCommnet,  where you log in  on my school’s website. Otherwise you’d have to activate the elements list and press the letter m until you hear MyCommnet.

The find dialog really saves me time. I just love NVDA

 😂

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Monday, October 7, 2019 11:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

 

I actually rarely use the find function on for example http://restream.io I jut use elements list to get to title, then social to update my stuff and e to get to the firs the edit field. Man I hope one day I can edit this stuff using the app as it is just more convenient.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on youtube, twitch and mixer. Thanks Restream staff.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 7 Oct 2019, at 8:22, Devin Prater wrote:

Yes, I do like the Find function. I teach my students to use that, over the commonly taught “elements list” dinosaur. Seriously, when a website is mainly reading, the elements list skips so much, and it only makes a blind person’s life harder because if that element isn’t there anymore, or it changes from a link to a button, well there ya go. But if it’s a web app we’re working with, I try to use it as “natively” as possible, turning on focus mode, using Tab, shift+Tab, and keyboard shortcuts as much as possible.

On Oct 7, 2019, at 10:08 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

 

On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 10:51 AM, Gene wrote:

But there are ways of skipping unwanted material and the fact that they are not well known indicates poor training or poor training materials being widely used.

 

The find command is one of the most useful but under or unused feature.

Indeed.   What's worse is how often I see people making the assertion, "You can't do {insert thing X}," which I know for fact you can do, and have been able to do for years.   Or stating that something is inaccessible not because it's actually inaccessible, but because they do not know how to access it.   That's one of the very reasons that questions of the form, "Is {insert program or app here} accessible with NVDA?," are allowed and encouraged on this group.  Though one can install and play with things, and actually should, when a given program either costs money and/or is quite complex it makes perfect sense to try to determine whether it's accessible or not before investing a lot of time in playing with it.   One good thing about groups, though, is that you can easily figure out when an incorrect assertion has been made based upon the typical flow of, "That's just not the case," often accompanied by instructions on how to access something that follows it.

And the screen reader find is one of the most handy and grossly underused features for "quick and dirty" movement around a given cyber landscape that I know of.  One of the tutorials I wrote ages ago,Mass Selection and Deletion of Gmail Messages via the Gmail Web Interface, was in response to several assertions of the "you can't do that, at all" nature that were offered.  And if you don't use the screen reader find function (see step 3) it is impossible to do, but with it, well . . .
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 

 

I use the find function to find the MyCommnet,  where you log in  on my school’s website. Otherwise you’d have to activate the elements list and press the letter m until you hear MyCommnet.

The find dialog really saves me time. I just love NVDA

 😂

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Monday, October 7, 2019 11:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

 

I actually rarely use the find function on for example http://restream.io I jut use elements list to get to title, then social to update my stuff and e to get to the firs the edit field. Man I hope one day I can edit this stuff using the app as it is just more convenient.

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On 7 Oct 2019, at 8:22, Devin Prater wrote:

Yes, I do like the Find function. I teach my students to use that, over the commonly taught “elements list” dinosaur. Seriously, when a website is mainly reading, the elements list skips so much, and it only makes a blind person’s life harder because if that element isn’t there anymore, or it changes from a link to a button, well there ya go. But if it’s a web app we’re working with, I try to use it as “natively” as possible, turning on focus mode, using Tab, shift+Tab, and keyboard shortcuts as much as possible.

On Oct 7, 2019, at 10:08 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

 

On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 10:51 AM, Gene wrote:

But there are ways of skipping unwanted material and the fact that they are not well known indicates poor training or poor training materials being widely used.

 

The find command is one of the most useful but under or unused feature.

Indeed.   What's worse is how often I see people making the assertion, "You can't do {insert thing X}," which I know for fact you can do, and have been able to do for years.   Or stating that something is inaccessible not because it's actually inaccessible, but because they do not know how to access it.   That's one of the very reasons that questions of the form, "Is {insert program or app here} accessible with NVDA?," are allowed and encouraged on this group.  Though one can install and play with things, and actually should, when a given program either costs money and/or is quite complex it makes perfect sense to try to determine whether it's accessible or not before investing a lot of time in playing with it.   One good thing about groups, though, is that you can easily figure out when an incorrect assertion has been made based upon the typical flow of, "That's just not the case," often accompanied by instructions on how to access something that follows it.

And the screen reader find is one of the most handy and grossly underused features for "quick and dirty" movement around a given cyber landscape that I know of.  One of the tutorials I wrote ages ago,Mass Selection and Deletion of Gmail Messages via the Gmail Web Interface, was in response to several assertions of the "you can't do that, at all" nature that were offered.  And if you don't use the screen reader find function (see step 3) it is impossible to do, but with it, well . . .
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 

 

I enjoy using the find function as well. Particularly on lengthy pages
with lots of links and/or information. Navigating with the elements list
would just take too long. This is useful on my RSS reader web page for
instance. I subscribe to a whole bunch of feeds, over 300.