Forcing an NVDA Search rather than a built-in search function


 

Hello All,

           I have got to be doing something wrong, but I'll be darned if I know what it might be, because sometimes using INS+CTRL+F (where INS is the NVDA Key) will cause the NVDA search dialog to pop up and other times it just brings up the native search function of the web browser I'm using at the moment.

           At first I thought it might be because I was in an edit box and I needed focus to be on a control object of some kind, but even if I tab to what NVDA announces as a button on the Gmail inbox page, in this specific case, I am unable to use single letter navigation to the next button nor to get INS+CTRL+F to bring up the NVDA search.  I'm getting the Firefox or Chrome browser search function, respectively, far more often than I am getting the NVDA search function.

           Is there some trick I can use, or something I need to be certain of, before invoking the NVDA search function to be sure I'll get the NVDA search function?  I need to test this some more with JAWS and Window Eyes, but I don't recall this same behavior occurring in those contexts.  I'll report back on whether I get the same behavior or not, because if I do I must be making the same mistake and if I don't I really have no idea what's up here.
--
Brian

 He discloses the workings of a mind to which incoherence lends an illusion of profundity.

         ~ T. De Vere White

    



 

OK, I'm getting similar "wacky" behavior out of JAWS 18 on the Gmail inbox page as well.  The first time I tried triggering a JAWS search it said this feature is available only in a virtual document, such as a web page.  I have no idea what it thinks the Gmail inbox web page is.  When I tried it again it came up to search, but things I can see on the page, including the "Select all conversations that match this view" link come up with NADA.

I know I used the screen reader search function when writing up instructions telling people how to get to certain "landmarks" on the page without having to resort to brute force tabbing, which I despise as a general technique because it's both a huge time waster and can be really frustrating.

What on earth have I forgotten or am I missing here?  By the way, I'm using the latest NVDA and JAWS under Win10 Home 64-bit, build 14393.576
--
Brian

 He discloses the workings of a mind to which incoherence lends an illusion of profundity.

         ~ T. De Vere White

    



Gene
 

I don't know if others will have any suggestions but assuming you are in browse mode, whatever is causing the problem isn't general to other users. You never have to be on any structure to use search. 
As longt as you are in the web page and in browse mode, search should work wherever you are. 
 
I doubt this is related to the problem but what kind of keyboard are you using?
Gene 

----- Original Message -----
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2017 3:01 PM
Subject: [nvda] Forcing an NVDA Search rather than a built-in search function

Hello All,

           I have got to be doing something wrong, but I'll be darned if I know what it might be, because sometimes using INS+CTRL+F (where INS is the NVDA Key) will cause the NVDA search dialog to pop up and other times it just brings up the native search function of the web browser I'm using at the moment.

           At first I thought it might be because I was in an edit box and I needed focus to be on a control object of some kind, but even if I tab to what NVDA announces as a button on the Gmail inbox page, in this specific case, I am unable to use single letter navigation to the next button nor to get INS+CTRL+F to bring up the NVDA search.  I'm getting the Firefox or Chrome browser search function, respectively, far more often than I am getting the NVDA search function.

           Is there some trick I can use, or something I need to be certain of, before invoking the NVDA search function to be sure I'll get the NVDA search function?  I need to test this some more with JAWS and Window Eyes, but I don't recall this same behavior occurring in those contexts.  I'll report back on whether I get the same behavior or not, because if I do I must be making the same mistake and if I don't I really have no idea what's up here.
--
Brian

 He discloses the workings of a mind to which incoherence lends an illusion of profundity.

         ~ T. De Vere White

    



Jacob Kruger
 

Just worked fine for me using latest chrome, and, NVDA key + ctrl + F, so, not sure what's happening.


Stay well


Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile, but, acceptance is versatile..."
On 2017-01-11 23:10, Brian Vogel wrote:

OK, I'm getting similar "wacky" behavior out of JAWS 18 on the Gmail inbox page as well.  The first time I tried triggering a JAWS search it said this feature is available only in a virtual document, such as a web page.  I have no idea what it thinks the Gmail inbox web page is.  When I tried it again it came up to search, but things I can see on the page, including the "Select all conversations that match this view" link come up with NADA.

I know I used the screen reader search function when writing up instructions telling people how to get to certain "landmarks" on the page without having to resort to brute force tabbing, which I despise as a general technique because it's both a huge time waster and can be really frustrating.

What on earth have I forgotten or am I missing here?  By the way, I'm using the latest NVDA and JAWS under Win10 Home 64-bit, build 14393.576
--
Brian

 He discloses the workings of a mind to which incoherence lends an illusion of profundity.

         ~ T. De Vere White

    




Andre Fisher
 

This sounds like the user is still in focus mode when he invoked the
command. Note that focus mode can be on even if you are outside of an
edit box. In fact, the standard gmail site defaults to focus mode on
the first visit. As a button is a form field, if you were not placed
in focus mode automatically (see user guide), and you tab to a button,
you are still in focus mode until you toggle to browse mode.

On 1/11/17, Jacob Kruger <jacob@...> wrote:
Just worked fine for me using latest chrome, and, NVDA key + ctrl + F,
so, not sure what's happening.


Stay well


Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile, but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 2017-01-11 23:10, Brian Vogel wrote:

OK, I'm getting similar "wacky" behavior out of JAWS 18 on the Gmail
inbox page as well. The first time I tried triggering a JAWS search
it said this feature is available only in a virtual document, such as
a web page. I have no idea what it thinks the Gmail inbox web page
is. When I tried it again it came up to search, but things I can see
on the page, including the "Select all conversations that match this
view" link come up with NADA.

I know I used the screen reader search function when writing up
instructions telling people how to get to certain "landmarks" on the
page without having to resort to brute force tabbing, which I despise
as a general technique because it's both a huge time waster and can be
really frustrating.

What on earth have I forgotten or am I missing here? By the way, I'm
using the latest NVDA and JAWS under Win10 Home 64-bit, build 14393.576
--
*/Brian/*

*//**/He discloses the workings of a mind to which incoherence
/**/lends an illusion of profundity./*

*/~ T. De Vere White/*



 

Thanks for the replies.

Gene, I was thinking that it might be possible that if I was still sitting in the edit box where you enter the search criteria that I might be in focus mode, rather than browse, but even forcing a "jump out" such that I know and can see that I am not in a context were text entry is possible, and automatic switching to browse mode has to have occurred, I'm still getting odd behavior.

The keyboard I'm using is the one that's built-in to my laptop and the one I've always used and generally used.  Right now, after having hit the period on the last sentence and being in the compose box for this message hitting NVDA+CTRL+F, while in Chrome, brought up the built-in Chrome search not the NVDA search.

Then jumping over to my Gmail tab I could get things to behave much more normally if I made sure I was out of the search criteria edit box after the search completed.  I think I'm going to try a full shutdown and restart, as this is one of those "just to bizarre to explain" behavior situations, and those often go away after power cycling.
--
Brian

 He discloses the workings of a mind to which incoherence lends an illusion of profundity.

         ~ T. De Vere White

    



Quentin Christensen
 

One other thing to double check is that num lock is off when using the number pad insert.  Many users leave it off all the time (in which case they may not think to check if it inadvertently gets pressed) and some users toggle it if entering numbers.  I've occasionally had it ignore the 0 (insert) and send the "control+f" through to the browser / other program.

Regards

Quentin.



On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 8:33 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

Thanks for the replies.

Gene, I was thinking that it might be possible that if I was still sitting in the edit box where you enter the search criteria that I might be in focus mode, rather than browse, but even forcing a "jump out" such that I know and can see that I am not in a context were text entry is possible, and automatic switching to browse mode has to have occurred, I'm still getting odd behavior.

The keyboard I'm using is the one that's built-in to my laptop and the one I've always used and generally used.  Right now, after having hit the period on the last sentence and being in the compose box for this message hitting NVDA+CTRL+F, while in Chrome, brought up the built-in Chrome search not the NVDA search.

Then jumping over to my Gmail tab I could get things to behave much more normally if I made sure I was out of the search criteria edit box after the search completed.  I think I'm going to try a full shutdown and restart, as this is one of those "just to bizarre to explain" behavior situations, and those often go away after power cycling.
--
Brian

 He discloses the workings of a mind to which incoherence lends an illusion of profundity.

         ~ T. De Vere White

    





--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


 

Gentlemen,

          Thank you again for your responses.   I now believe, though I have not yet had time to test it out, that this may be "pending update" related.  I often get some really weird behaviors, and not just with screen readers, if a major Windows Update has applied but a restart is pending.  I had gotten a warning earlier in the day that I'd forgotten about, and when I went to shutdown I saw the "Update and" feature for either shutdown or restart.  It was the upgrade to 14393.693

          I'll report back on what's happening when I try doing the same things a bit later as time permits.  Now off to see a client!
--
Brian

 He discloses the workings of a mind to which incoherence lends an illusion of profundity.

         ~ T. De Vere White

    



Quentin Christensen
 

Interesting.  I've also seen problems while a big update is downloading as well.

On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 9:14 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

Gentlemen,

          Thank you again for your responses.   I now believe, though I have not yet had time to test it out, that this may be "pending update" related.  I often get some really weird behaviors, and not just with screen readers, if a major Windows Update has applied but a restart is pending.  I had gotten a warning earlier in the day that I'd forgotten about, and when I went to shutdown I saw the "Update and" feature for either shutdown or restart.  It was the upgrade to 14393.693

          I'll report back on what's happening when I try doing the same things a bit later as time permits.  Now off to see a client!
--
Brian

 He discloses the workings of a mind to which incoherence lends an illusion of profundity.

         ~ T. De Vere White

    





--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


 

Well, there's good news and bad news.

The good news is that using INS+CTRL+F in both Firefox and Chrome is invoking the NVDA search now that I've rebooted.  

The bad news is that what NVDA finds (and I am going to have to do additional testing) as far as the "Select Menu Button" seems to change after having done a search.  When I do my initial search in Firefox, then use INS+CTRL+F to invoke the NVDA search and use "select" as my string it lands on the Select Menu Button as I'd expect.  If I go back and perform a subsequent search and then use the same NVDA search, it lands me on "Select Input Tool" rather than the "Select Menu Button" which is weird.  

Even though I have the Focus Highlight add-on added on I do not seem to be able to follow exactly where NVDA has it's focus when doing anything other than the first NVDA search.  If I completely reload my inbox page before doing a subsequent NVDA search things seem to behave as I'd expect.  I would have to believe that the "page state" (for lack of a better description) is precisely the same when any given Gmail search completes from its search box, so I would think that an NVDA search for Select immediately after should always land one on the Select Menu Button, but it doesn't.

More work to be done on my part, but if anyone has any thoughts about what I am doing wrong or might try to do differently they will be gratefully accepted.
--
Brian

 He discloses the workings of a mind to which incoherence lends an illusion of profundity.

         ~ T. De Vere White

    



 

By the way, as I'm confusing myself a bit with that last post because I'm doing a Gmail search first followed by an NVDA search to find a control, then attempting to do this again, I thought I'd post the link to the article on mass Gmail selection (you don't have to delete) that I'm trying to do iteratively:

Mass Selection and Deletion of Gmail Messages via the Gmail Web Interface

On iteration two the NVDA search for "Select" doesn't find the same Gmail control that it does on the first one.  Weird.

--
Brian

 He discloses the workings of a mind to which incoherence lends an illusion of profundity.

         ~ T. De Vere White

    



Gene
 

You haven't said whether this behavior occurs on other pages or just on this one.  There are sites, such as The New York Times where you can search for a specific button such as the all button.  You haven't established, at least not in what you have described, whether this is behavior caused by this one page or general behavior.  Also, what happens if you don't just move to the top of the page before repeating the search, but move to the top and then do something like tabbing once.  I'm not sure what is causing the problem but it sounds as though something isn't calibrating correctly as you move in the virtual buffer and starts a search from the location of the previous result rather than from the top of the page. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2017 10:45 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Forcing an NVDA Search rather than a built-in search function

Well, there's good news and bad news.

The good news is that using INS+CTRL+F in both Firefox and Chrome is invoking the NVDA search now that I've rebooted.  

The bad news is that what NVDA finds (and I am going to have to do additional testing) as far as the "Select Menu Button" seems to change after having done a search.  When I do my initial search in Firefox, then use INS+CTRL+F to invoke the NVDA search and use "select" as my string it lands on the Select Menu Button as I'd expect.  If I go back and perform a subsequent search and then use the same NVDA search, it lands me on "Select Input Tool" rather than the "Select Menu Button" which is weird.  

Even though I have the Focus Highlight add-on added on I do not seem to be able to follow exactly where NVDA has it's focus when doing anything other than the first NVDA search.  If I completely reload my inbox page before doing a subsequent NVDA search things seem to behave as I'd expect.  I would have to believe that the "page state" (for lack of a better description) is precisely the same when any given Gmail search completes from its search box, so I would think that an NVDA search for Select immediately after should always land one on the Select Menu Button, but it doesn't.

More work to be done on my part, but if anyone has any thoughts about what I am doing wrong or might try to do differently they will be gratefully accepted.
--
Brian

 He discloses the workings of a mind to which incoherence lends an illusion of profundity.

         ~ T. De Vere White

    



 

hi. i have this problem too.
when i want search something in my gmail, nvda says the result not
found and i dont know how to find everything that i needed!
the situation in firefox or any browser is worse.
gene,
may i be contact with you via your gmail addresss or skype?

On 1/12/17, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
You haven't said whether this behavior occurs on other pages or just on this
one. There are sites, such as The New York Times where you can search for a
specific button such as the all button. You haven't established, at least
not in what you have described, whether this is behavior caused by this one
page or general behavior. Also, what happens if you don't just move to the
top of the page before repeating the search, but move to the top and then do
something like tabbing once. I'm not sure what is causing the problem but
it sounds as though something isn't calibrating correctly as you move in the
virtual buffer and starts a search from the location of the previous result
rather than from the top of the page.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2017 10:45 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Forcing an NVDA Search rather than a built-in search
function


Well, there's good news and bad news.

The good news is that using INS+CTRL+F in both Firefox and Chrome is
invoking the NVDA search now that I've rebooted.

The bad news is that what NVDA finds (and I am going to have to do
additional testing) as far as the "Select Menu Button" seems to change after
having done a search. When I do my initial search in Firefox, then use
INS+CTRL+F to invoke the NVDA search and use "select" as my string it lands
on the Select Menu Button as I'd expect. If I go back and perform a
subsequent search and then use the same NVDA search, it lands me on "Select
Input Tool" rather than the "Select Menu Button" which is weird.

Even though I have the Focus Highlight add-on added on I do not seem to be
able to follow exactly where NVDA has it's focus when doing anything other
than the first NVDA search. If I completely reload my inbox page before
doing a subsequent NVDA search things seem to behave as I'd expect. I would
have to believe that the "page state" (for lack of a better description) is
precisely the same when any given Gmail search completes from its search
box, so I would think that an NVDA search for Select immediately after
should always land one on the Select Menu Button, but it doesn't.

More work to be done on my part, but if anyone has any thoughts about what I
am doing wrong or might try to do differently they will be gratefully
accepted.
--
Brian


He discloses the workings of a mind to which incoherence lends an illusion
of profundity.

~ T. De Vere White









--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration is:
imam hosein is the beacon of light and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
al-islam.org


 

Gene,

            I can't honestly answer the "is it only Gmail's page" question because I do these kinds of intensive explorations pretty much in response to either a specific client need or a question that pops up on the groups.

            I can say that I am probably not "moving to the top of the page" insofar as forcing that via NVDA.  I would think that when I go back to the Gmail search box, which is both very near the top of the visible page and clearly before the "Select Menu Button" in the virtual the first cycle around that this should return me to the same position in the virtual page as I was in when entering the first set of Gmail search criteria.  That's why this leaves me so perplexed.  Since part of this is performing a new Gmail search, which results in a reloaded Gmail page of results, I'd also rationally believe that the virtual page is being reloaded and I should be placed at the beginning, but it appears that's not happening.  However, further research is needed.  This is why I turn to you all who actually use NVDA day in and day out, because I recognize that I could be making a mistake that I have absolutely no idea I'm making because I'm not a "real user" and no one who isn't ever develops the "in the gut" ease and facility that a day-in-day-out user of any technology does.

            Yesterday, on a completely different issue elsewhere, I was introduced to the Principle of Least Astonishment and that's what I'm experiencing a seeming violation of in this instance.  But it could be stupid user error, and I need to eliminate that as a root cause first.
--
Brian

 He discloses the workings of a mind to which incoherence lends an illusion of profundity.

         ~ T. De Vere White

    



 

Also, as of this morning, just now, I'm back to the *%$&^ behavior where when I'm hitting INS+CTRL+F I am not ever getting the NVDA search dialog box but always having the Firefox page search bar come up at the bottom of the screen.   This is immensely frustrating for me and I cannot even begin to imagine the orders of magnitude of additional frustration that would be added were I depending on this to behave in a predictable way to actually get work done.

-- 

Brian

 He discloses the workings of a mind to which incoherence lends an illusion of profundity.

         ~ T. De Vere White

    



Angelo Sonnesso
 

It seems to be a Firefox problem.

I just tried it in Chrome, and it works just fine.

I also tried it on your email message, and it worked.

 

73 N2DYN Angelo

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2017 10:26 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Forcing an NVDA Search rather than a built-in search function

 

Also, as of this morning, just now, I'm back to the *%$&^ behavior where when I'm hitting INS+CTRL+F I am not ever getting the NVDA search dialog box but always having the Firefox page search bar come up at the bottom of the screen.   This is immensely frustrating for me and I cannot even begin to imagine the orders of magnitude of additional frustration that would be added were I depending on this to behave in a predictable way to actually get work done.

-- 

Brian

 He discloses the workings of a mind to which incoherence lends an illusion of profundity.

         ~ T. De Vere White

    

 


 

I have also replicated the error in Firefox.   I rebooted my system before trying to do so as well.

Everything works as expected on the first iteration of a Gmail search and mass selection per my instructions for doing same.  After that, if one navigates back to the Gmail search edit box and performs another search, INS+CTRL+F insists on pulling up the Firefox search, not the NVDA search.  This behavior continues even if I intentionally tab my way around the page to get to another control and hit INS+CTRL+F again.  In all instances I get a Firefox search not an NVDA search.

Windows 10 Home 64-bit Build 14393.693, Firefox 50.1.0, NVDA 2016.4

--
Brian

 He discloses the workings of a mind to which incoherence lends an illusion of profundity.

         ~ T. De Vere White

    



Andre Fisher
 

You would probably need to send a log here so that there is evidence
that a) you are in browse mode and b) that you actually pressed the
correct keyboard shortcut.

On 1/12/17, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
I have also replicated the error in Firefox.   I rebooted my system before
trying to do so as well.

Everything works as expected on the first iteration of a Gmail search and
mass selection per my instructions for doing same.  After that, if one
navigates back to the Gmail search edit box and performs another search,
INS+CTRL+F insists on pulling up the Firefox search, not the NVDA search.
 This behavior continues even if I intentionally tab my way around the page
to get to another control and hit INS+CTRL+F again.  In all instances I get
a Firefox search not an NVDA search.

Windows 10 Home 64-bit Build 14393.693, Firefox 50.1.0, NVDA 2016.4

--
*Brian*

* * *He discloses the workings of a mind to which incoherence * *lends an
illusion of profundity.*

*         ~ T. De Vere White*


 

If someone wants a log all they need to do is tell me how to force NVDA to create one, where it will be located, and what it's name structure will be and I'll be happy to generate one.  I have absolutely no doubt that I am in browse mode and am pressing INS+CTRL+F.  I've tried it too many times and have taken both possibly having missed mode change and fat fingering the NVDA search key sequence into account.  Neither is a factor.
--
Brian

 He discloses the workings of a mind to which incoherence lends an illusion of profundity.

         ~ T. De Vere White

    



Gene
 

I seldom correspond privately with list members and if you have a problem you want help on, it's a much gbetter idea to ask about on list.  I have no idea if I can help and even if I can, others may have other or additional information.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2017 8:22 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Forcing an NVDA Search rather than a built-in search function

hi. i have this problem too.
when i want search something in my gmail, nvda says the result not
found and i dont know how to find everything that i needed!
the situation in firefox or any browser is worse.
gene,
may i be contact with you via your gmail  addresss or skype?

On 1/12/17, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
> You haven't said whether this behavior occurs on other pages or just on this
> one.  There are sites, such as The New York Times where you can search for a
> specific button such as the all button.  You haven't established, at least
> not in what you have described, whether this is behavior caused by this one
> page or general behavior.  Also, what happens if you don't just move to the
> top of the page before repeating the search, but move to the top and then do
> something like tabbing once.  I'm not sure what is causing the problem but
> it sounds as though something isn't calibrating correctly as you move in the
> virtual buffer and starts a search from the location of the previous result
> rather than from the top of the page.
>
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Brian Vogel
> Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2017 10:45 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Forcing an NVDA Search rather than a built-in search
> function
>
>
> Well, there's good news and bad news.
>
> The good news is that using INS+CTRL+F in both Firefox and Chrome is
> invoking the NVDA search now that I've rebooted.
>
> The bad news is that what NVDA finds (and I am going to have to do
> additional testing) as far as the "Select Menu Button" seems to change after
> having done a search.  When I do my initial search in Firefox, then use
> INS+CTRL+F to invoke the NVDA search and use "select" as my string it lands
> on the Select Menu Button as I'd expect.  If I go back and perform a
> subsequent search and then use the same NVDA search, it lands me on "Select
> Input Tool" rather than the "Select Menu Button" which is weird.
>
> Even though I have the Focus Highlight add-on added on I do not seem to be
> able to follow exactly where NVDA has it's focus when doing anything other
> than the first NVDA search.  If I completely reload my inbox page before
> doing a subsequent NVDA search things seem to behave as I'd expect.  I would
> have to believe that the "page state" (for lack of a better description) is
> precisely the same when any given Gmail search completes from its search
> box, so I would think that an NVDA search for Select immediately after
> should always land one on the Select Menu Button, but it doesn't.
>
> More work to be done on my part, but if anyone has any thoughts about what I
> am doing wrong or might try to do differently they will be gratefully
> accepted.
> --
> Brian
>
>
>  He discloses the workings of a mind to which incoherence lends an illusion
> of profundity.
>
>          ~ T. De Vere White
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration is:
imam hosein is the beacon of light and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
al-islam.org