problem reading mail


Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
 

Hi All,
 
I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1.  I am using wlm as my mail client.  It used to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda would start reading the message.  Now, I have to hit the key for it to read the message.  Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be?  Thanks for any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox


Quentin Christensen
 

Hi Gary,

I must admit I haven't been using the mail app much.  I just had a look and found a couple of times it opened the message and I had to press NVDA+down arrow to read, but most time (even on the same messages), it read fine.

Would love to get some more info if anyone else is experiencing this (or not) and particularly if anyone can better pin down exactly when it does and doesn't read automatically?

Regards

Quentin.

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 6:13 AM, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...> wrote:
Hi All,
 
I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1.  I am using wlm as my mail client.  It used to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda would start reading the message.  Now, I have to hit the key for it to read the message.  Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be?  Thanks for any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox




--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Brian's Mail list account
 

Well I don't think that should happen at all. What happens if you use the older version. I'd also advise against using a portable version on windows 10, it seldom works verywell.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Metzler " <gmtravel@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 7:13 PM
Subject: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi All,

I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1. I am using wlm as my mail client. It used to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda would start reading the message. Now, I have to hit the key for it to read the message. Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be? Thanks for any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox


Brian's Mail list account
 

I think it happens on Windows Live mail but there are a number of different versions knocking around. To me the only usable one was the version using old style menus, which microsoft now seems to have removed as a download and the version is always asking to update or to go over tto the latest app. I don't think the app in 10 has support for Usenet so I'm loathe to do that change, and in any case Outlook express with the files that emulate the old html etc displays of xp seems to owork well and I do not begrudge the 20 Eu it costs for three keys at all as the guy is very helpful.
This will do me for years unless nobody does pop3 email any more.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Quentin Christensen" <quentin@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi Gary,

I must admit I haven't been using the mail app much. I just had a look and
found a couple of times it opened the message and I had to press NVDA+down
arrow to read, but most time (even on the same messages), it read fine.

Would love to get some more info if anyone else is experiencing this (or
not) and particularly if anyone can better pin down exactly when it does
and doesn't read automatically?

Regards

Quentin.

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 6:13 AM, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
wrote:

Hi All,

I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1. I am using wlm as my mail client. It
used to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda
would start reading the message. Now, I have to hit the key for it to read
the message. Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be? Thanks
for any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox



--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess


Gene
 

What do you mean the only useable one.  You mean the only one you liked because you hate ribbons.  That is different than the only useable one.  The later version is perfectly useable.  If you are willing to use ribbons, it is just as useable as the old version. 
 
Microsoft doesn't provide the installer for the old version any longer but the full installer for the old version is available from individuals who have it.  I have it and I expect other list members have it as well.
 
Outlook Express in the version that has been modified to work in Windows 7 and higher works well for some people and not for others. 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Gene----- Original Message -----
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:29 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

I think it happens on Windows Live mail but there are a number of different
versions knocking around. To me the only usable one was the version using
old style menus, which microsoft now seems to have removed as a download and
the version is always asking to update or to go over tto the latest app. I
don't think the app in 10 has support for Usenet so I'm loathe to do that
change, and in any case Outlook express with the files that emulate the old
html etc displays of xp seems to owork well and I do not begrudge the 20 Eu
it costs for three keys at all as the guy is very helpful.
 This will do me for years unless nobody does pop3 email any more.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Quentin Christensen" <quentin@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


> Hi Gary,
>
> I must admit I haven't been using the mail app much.  I just had a look
> and
> found a couple of times it opened the message and I had to press NVDA+down
> arrow to read, but most time (even on the same messages), it read fine.
>
> Would love to get some more info if anyone else is experiencing this (or
> not) and particularly if anyone can better pin down exactly when it does
> and doesn't read automatically?
>
> Regards
>
> Quentin.
>
> On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 6:13 AM, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1.  I am using wlm as my mail client.  It
>> used to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda
>> would start reading the message.  Now, I have to hit the key for it to
>> read
>> the message.  Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be?
>> Thanks
>> for any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Quentin Christensen
> Training Material Developer
> Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available:
> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>
> Ph +61 7 3149 3306
> www.nvaccess.org
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
> Twitter: @NVAccess
>




Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
 

Hi Brian,

When I used nvda 2016.4 when I opened a message I hit the up arrow key to stop the reading of the subject line. In rc1 this no longer works. Thanks for any help.

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:13 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Well I don't think that should happen at all. What happens if you use the
older version. I'd also advise against using a portable version on windows
10, it seldom works verywell.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Metzler " <gmtravel@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 7:13 PM
Subject: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi All,

I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1. I am using wlm as my mail client. It used
to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda would
start reading the message. Now, I have to hit the key for it to read the
message. Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be? Thanks for
any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox


Gene
 

Whether it used to work or not, that isn't documented or expected behavior.  I have no idea if this might be restored or why the behavior has changed.  Simply issue the usual read to end command when you open a message.  I don't use thunderbird and I can't comment on this behavior stopping.  But I can tell you that when I was learning something about thunderbird a number of years ago, the way I got message bodies to read efficiently, that is without the subject line being read, was to use the read to end command in whatever screen-reader I was working with.  If the read to end command is inconvenient in whatever keyboard layout you are using, you may be able to make it far more convenient by doing something like having the caps lock key be an NVDA key.
 
You may have to experiment to see how long to wait after opening a message before issuing the command. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Hi Brian,

When I used nvda 2016.4 when I opened a message I hit the up arrow key to
stop the reading of the subject line.  In rc1 this no longer works.  Thanks
for any help.

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:13 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Well I don't think that should happen at all. What happens if you use the
older version. I'd also advise against using a portable version on windows
10, it seldom works verywell.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Metzler " <gmtravel@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 7:13 PM
Subject: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi All,

I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1.  I am using wlm as my mail client.  It used
to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda would
start reading the message.  Now, I have to hit the key for it to read the
message.  Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be?  Thanks for
any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox


 




Brian's Mail list account
 

Well I'm not rising to your bait. I meerely present what is not an uncommon view amongst blind users of windows.

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


What do you mean the only useable one. You mean the only one you liked because you hate ribbons. That is different than the only useable one. The later version is perfectly useable. If you are willing to use ribbons, it is just as useable as the old version.

Microsoft doesn't provide the installer for the old version any longer but the full installer for the old version is available from individuals who have it. I have it and I expect other list members have it as well.

Outlook Express in the version that has been modified to work in Windows 7 and higher works well for some people and not for others.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene----- Original Message -----
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


I think it happens on Windows Live mail but there are a number of different
versions knocking around. To me the only usable one was the version using
old style menus, which microsoft now seems to have removed as a download and
the version is always asking to update or to go over tto the latest app. I
don't think the app in 10 has support for Usenet so I'm loathe to do that
change, and in any case Outlook express with the files that emulate the old
html etc displays of xp seems to owork well and I do not begrudge the 20 Eu
it costs for three keys at all as the guy is very helpful.
This will do me for years unless nobody does pop3 email any more.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Quentin Christensen" <quentin@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi Gary,

I must admit I haven't been using the mail app much. I just had a look
and
found a couple of times it opened the message and I had to press NVDA+down
arrow to read, but most time (even on the same messages), it read fine.

Would love to get some more info if anyone else is experiencing this (or
not) and particularly if anyone can better pin down exactly when it does
and doesn't read automatically?

Regards

Quentin.

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 6:13 AM, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
wrote:

Hi All,

I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1. I am using wlm as my mail client. It
used to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda
would start reading the message. Now, I have to hit the key for it to
read
the message. Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be?
Thanks
for any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox



--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess


Brian's Mail list account
 

Has perhaps a parameter been added that needs to be ticked or umticked? I had a quick look at this on another machine and could find no difference. Its probably the way the email client was set up which has revealed this change. Anyone?
Does not seem to affect Outlook express.
Do you use the preview pane? I always turn this off.

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Metzler " <gmtravel@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi Brian,

When I used nvda 2016.4 when I opened a message I hit the up arrow key to stop the reading of the subject line. In rc1 this no longer works. Thanks for any help.

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:13 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Well I don't think that should happen at all. What happens if you use the
older version. I'd also advise against using a portable version on windows
10, it seldom works verywell.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Metzler " <gmtravel@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 7:13 PM
Subject: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi All,

I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1. I am using wlm as my mail client. It used
to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda would
start reading the message. Now, I have to hit the key for it to read the
message. Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be? Thanks for
any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox






Gene
 

It's not a question of bait.  You didn't say clearly that you were expressing your opinion.  You didn't indicate that many people are using the later version.  If you had said something like, I don't use the later version because I don't like ribbons, that would have been one thing.  If you had said that many blind people use the program but you don't for this or that reason, that would have been a fair statement.  But your statement could far too easily be misinterpreted as saying that the later version is unuseable.  If you make such ambiguous statements, then I comment on them because you are writing in such a way that many people may interpret what you say as a general statement that the program is unuseable.  Just saying the phrase "to me" and then saying that a program is unuseable because it has ribbons is too easy to be misinterpreted unless you are more clear in your explanation of what you mean. 
 
And while many blind people don't like ribbons, many blind people use ribbons regularly and use the new version of the program.
 
I don't care which version people use.  I care about statements that are easily misinterpreted and that may cause people considering what program and version to use to believe that a program is unuseable when that is far from the case.
 
Gene 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 10:17 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Well I'm not rising to your bait. I meerely present what is not an uncommon
view amongst blind users of windows.

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


What do you mean the only useable one.  You mean the only one you liked
because you hate ribbons.  That is different than the only useable one.  The
later version is perfectly useable.  If you are willing to use ribbons, it
is just as useable as the old version.

Microsoft doesn't provide the installer for the old version any longer but
the full installer for the old version is available from individuals who
have it.  I have it and I expect other list members have it as well.

Outlook Express in the version that has been modified to work in Windows 7
and higher works well for some people and not for others.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene----- Original Message -----
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


I think it happens on Windows Live mail but there are a number of different
versions knocking around. To me the only usable one was the version using
old style menus, which microsoft now seems to have removed as a download and
the version is always asking to update or to go over tto the latest app. I
don't think the app in 10 has support for Usenet so I'm loathe to do that
change, and in any case Outlook express with the files that emulate the old
html etc displays of xp seems to owork well and I do not begrudge the 20 Eu
it costs for three keys at all as the guy is very helpful.
 This will do me for years unless nobody does pop3 email any more.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Quentin Christensen" <quentin@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


> Hi Gary,
>
> I must admit I haven't been using the mail app much.  I just had a look
> and
> found a couple of times it opened the message and I had to press NVDA+down
> arrow to read, but most time (even on the same messages), it read fine.
>
> Would love to get some more info if anyone else is experiencing this (or
> not) and particularly if anyone can better pin down exactly when it does
> and doesn't read automatically?
>
> Regards
>
> Quentin.
>
> On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 6:13 AM, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1.  I am using wlm as my mail client.  It
>> used to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda
>> would start reading the message.  Now, I have to hit the key for it to
>> read
>> the message.  Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be?
>> Thanks
>> for any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Quentin Christensen
> Training Material Developer
> Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available:
> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>
> Ph +61 7 3149 3306
> www.nvaccess.org
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
> Twitter: @NVAccess
>







 

Gary,

          Are you using WLM 2012?   Do you have the reading pane turned on or off?

          I have just had an instance where I started up WLM 2012 (and I have the reading pane turned on) where when I tabbed to the inbox list I got nothing but "pane" when it first landed on it and the focus was actually shown as on the whole pane itself rather than a message in the inbox.  Once I tabbed then Shift+tabbed things went back to normal.

          I have not, as yet, been able to replicate that "entry behavior" when I shut down WLM 2012 and restart it.  I have not restarted my machine to see if that has anything to do with the "pane" announcement.

          It's a PITA when you encounter stuff like this but can't figure out how to "force the issue" again.  Developers can't fix something they can't make happen so that they can figure out why it's happening.  If you've experienced a pattern with when this happens that would be useful to know.
--
Brian

    I don't find an uninformed hatred a "principled position" that I need to respect in any way.

        ~ Ellen Evans, soc.motss, 11/6/2004



Ron Canazzi
 

...and while I respect Gene for most issues, when ever he has said in the past that ribbons are easy once you get used to them, and I ask about just how to use them in Excel--he or any of the other 'get on the ball blinky' advocates of ribbons have no clue as to how to answer me. I have some basic shortcuts I have been given by those forced to use the newer Excel and Access version, but that's about it. None who use ribbons for complex suite such as Office do anything other than memorize shortcuts to achieve basic functions. Fortunately some of the older ones such as Control + S for save and alt + F, A for save as still work, but having real command of ribbons in complex programs still alludes most blind people.

On 2/16/2017 11:17 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
Well I'm not rising to your bait. I meerely present what is not an uncommon view amongst blind users of windows.

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


What do you mean the only useable one. You mean the only one you liked because you hate ribbons. That is different than the only useable one. The later version is perfectly useable. If you are willing to use ribbons, it is just as useable as the old version.

Microsoft doesn't provide the installer for the old version any longer but the full installer for the old version is available from individuals who have it. I have it and I expect other list members have it as well.

Outlook Express in the version that has been modified to work in Windows 7 and higher works well for some people and not for others.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene----- Original Message -----
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


I think it happens on Windows Live mail but there are a number of different
versions knocking around. To me the only usable one was the version using
old style menus, which microsoft now seems to have removed as a download and
the version is always asking to update or to go over tto the latest app. I
don't think the app in 10 has support for Usenet so I'm loathe to do that
change, and in any case Outlook express with the files that emulate the old
html etc displays of xp seems to owork well and I do not begrudge the 20 Eu
it costs for three keys at all as the guy is very helpful.
This will do me for years unless nobody does pop3 email any more.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen" <quentin@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi Gary,

I must admit I haven't been using the mail app much. I just had a look
and
found a couple of times it opened the message and I had to press NVDA+down
arrow to read, but most time (even on the same messages), it read fine.

Would love to get some more info if anyone else is experiencing this (or
not) and particularly if anyone can better pin down exactly when it does
and doesn't read automatically?

Regards

Quentin.

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 6:13 AM, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
wrote:

Hi All,

I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1. I am using wlm as my mail client. It
used to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda
would start reading the message. Now, I have to hit the key for it to
read
the message. Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be?
Thanks
for any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox



--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess





--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


 

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 09:28 am, Ron Canazzi wrote:

None who use ribbons for complex suite such as Office do anything other than memorize shortcuts to achieve basic functions.

And this is different than the menu driven system in what way, precisely?

No one has ever known exactly where to find "very seldom to almost never used" functions but did menu searches when there were menus and ribbon searches when there are ribbons to find them.

The ribbons are nothing more than a menu in different form.  It's not all that much easier to conduct an exhaustive search of a multi-level menu than it is to do the same with a ribbon control, it's just the precise "how" that's different.

How you use them in Excel is no different than how you use them in any ribbon-driven program.  Read the brief "how-to" I wrote which applies to any ribbon-controlled program in Windows.   It's impossible to get specific unless one is writing a "how-to" for a single program and even then you'll never cover all the options available in the various ribbons or menus and the multiple dialogs that each can spawn.  

 
--
Brian

    I don't find an uninformed hatred a "principled position" that I need to respect in any way.

        ~ Ellen Evans, soc.motss, 11/6/2004



Gene
 

When the program opens, I believe that at times, no message is selected.  Try unselecting the current message, closing and opening the program and see what happens.  If the cause is that no message is selected, I'm not sure what, if anything, should occur differently than at present but it's something to check to see if that replicates the behavior.
 
Gene
----- original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 11:06 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Gary,

          Are you using WLM 2012?   Do you have the reading pane turned on or off?

          I have just had an instance where I started up WLM 2012 (and I have the reading pane turned on) where when I tabbed to the inbox list I got nothing but "pane" when it first landed on it and the focus was actually shown as on the whole pane itself rather than a message in the inbox.  Once I tabbed then Shift+tabbed things went back to normal.

          I have not, as yet, been able to replicate that "entry behavior" when I shut down WLM 2012 and restart it.  I have not restarted my machine to see if that has anything to do with the "pane" announcement.

          It's a PITA when you encounter stuff like this but can't figure out how to "force the issue" again.  Developers can't fix something they can't make happen so that they can figure out why it's happening.  If you've experienced a pattern with when this happens that would be useful to know.
--
Brian

    I don't find an uninformed hatred a "principled position" that I need to respect in any way.

        ~ Ellen Evans, soc.motss, 11/6/2004



Gene
 

I've repeatedly sent instructions on using ribbons to the list.  And I don't say that ribbons are easy to use because that is a blanket generalization that may not apply to everyone.  I do believe that for the majority or most users, if ribbons are properly taught, they will not be difficult to use. 
 
I can send my discussion about how to use ribbons again, if desired.  The essence of working with ribbons is that you open the ribbon bar with alt.  You left or right arrow to the ribbon you want to use as you do when moving to a menu.  Then instead of up or down arrowing, you tab or shift tab.
 
There is more to learn than that but that is the essence of understanding the organization of ribbons in the most simple introductory framework. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

...and while I respect Gene for most issues, when ever he has said in
the past that ribbons are easy once you get used to them, and I ask
about just how to use them in Excel--he or any of the other 'get on the
ball blinky' advocates of ribbons have no clue as to how to answer me. 
I have some basic shortcuts I have been given by those forced to use the
newer Excel and Access version, but that's about it.  None who use
ribbons for complex suite such as Office do anything other than memorize
shortcuts to achieve basic functions.  Fortunately some of the older
ones such as Control + S for save and alt + F, A for save as still work,
but having real command of ribbons in complex programs still alludes
most blind people.



On 2/16/2017 11:17 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
> Well I'm not rising to your bait. I meerely present what is not an
> uncommon view amongst blind users of windows.
>
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 1:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
> What do you mean the only useable one.  You mean the only one you
> liked because you hate ribbons.  That is different than the only
> useable one.  The later version is perfectly useable.  If you are
> willing to use ribbons, it is just as useable as the old version.
>
> Microsoft doesn't provide the installer for the old version any longer
> but the full installer for the old version is available from
> individuals who have it.  I have it and I expect other list members
> have it as well.
>
> Outlook Express in the version that has been modified to work in
> Windows 7 and higher works well for some people and not for others.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> Gene----- Original Message -----
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Brian's Mail list account
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:29 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
> I think it happens on Windows Live mail but there are a number of
> different
> versions knocking around. To me the only usable one was the version using
> old style menus, which microsoft now seems to have removed as a
> download and
> the version is always asking to update or to go over tto the latest
> app. I
> don't think the app in 10 has support for Usenet so I'm loathe to do that
> change, and in any case Outlook express with the files that emulate
> the old
> html etc displays of xp seems to owork well and I do not begrudge the
> 20 Eu
> it costs for three keys at all as the guy is very helpful.
> This will do me for years unless nobody does pop3 email any more.
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen"
> <quentin@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 10:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
>> Hi Gary,
>>
>> I must admit I haven't been using the mail app much.  I just had a look
>> and
>> found a couple of times it opened the message and I had to press
>> NVDA+down
>> arrow to read, but most time (even on the same messages), it read fine.
>>
>> Would love to get some more info if anyone else is experiencing this (or
>> not) and particularly if anyone can better pin down exactly when it does
>> and doesn't read automatically?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Quentin.
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 6:13 AM, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1.  I am using wlm as my mail client.  It
>>> used to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda
>>> would start reading the message.  Now, I have to hit the key for it to
>>> read
>>> the message.  Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be?
>>> Thanks
>>> for any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Quentin Christensen
>> Training Material Developer
>> Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
>> available:
>> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>>
>> Ph +61 7 3149 3306
>> www.nvaccess.org
>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>> Twitter: @NVAccess
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"




 

Gene,

           What you suggest has merit, but I cannot get the situation to recur, at least not yet.  Right now if I get into the inbox tree and move myself to an account different than the one I've been viewing that definitely deselects any message in the inbox.  But if I exit WLM 2012 and restart it again, the first thing that gets focus is a message in the inbox for the account I had focus on in the inbox tree prior to shutting it down.

            I suspect this might be an initial startup after full system shutdown or use of Restart, as opposed to doing a shutdown when Fast Startup is enabled.  I will try a bit later today to do a shutdown (as I don't have Fast Startup enabled) then see what happens if I've got NVDA fired up and then start WLM 2012.  My gut tells me that this behavior is very context specific and once that context has been changed and stays changed it won't recur until the original context presents itself again.
--
Brian

    I don't find an uninformed hatred a "principled position" that I need to respect in any way.

        ~ Ellen Evans, soc.motss, 11/6/2004



Ron Canazzi
 

I'll look at this again, but I'm almost certain I read it before. It's not the basic function, it's such things as defining column width, importing and exporting various kinds of file types and formats and such.  I always could find those things in standard pull downs--no matter how deep within they were.  My best guess is that once you get in a few layers that screen reading software does not read all possible choices within the ribbon structure.  I'll give it a go once again--don't recall how many such tutorials I have read in the past and spent several hours on each one comparing and testing; here goes again!



On 2/16/2017 1:06 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 09:28 am, Ron Canazzi wrote:

None who use ribbons for complex suite such as Office do anything other than memorize shortcuts to achieve basic functions.

And this is different than the menu driven system in what way, precisely?

No one has ever known exactly where to find "very seldom to almost never used" functions but did menu searches when there were menus and ribbon searches when there are ribbons to find them.

The ribbons are nothing more than a menu in different form.  It's not all that much easier to conduct an exhaustive search of a multi-level menu than it is to do the same with a ribbon control, it's just the precise "how" that's different.

How you use them in Excel is no different than how you use them in any ribbon-driven program.  Read the brief "how-to" I wrote which applies to any ribbon-controlled program in Windows.   It's impossible to get specific unless one is writing a "how-to" for a single program and even then you'll never cover all the options available in the various ribbons or menus and the multiple dialogs that each can spawn.  

 
--
Brian

    I don't find an uninformed hatred a "principled position" that I need to respect in any way.

        ~ Ellen Evans, soc.motss, 11/6/2004



--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Gene
 

It appears that normally, unselecting a message and then closing the program causes the program to open again with the next message selected.  I tried unselecting a message with control space bar, then closing and opening the program.  As I said, the next message in the list was selected.  Even if my hypothesis is correct, it may be hard to test since it may be uncommon for the program to open with no message selected.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:36 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Gene,

           What you suggest has merit, but I cannot get the situation to recur, at least not yet.  Right now if I get into the inbox tree and move myself to an account different than the one I've been viewing that definitely deselects any message in the inbox.  But if I exit WLM 2012 and restart it again, the first thing that gets focus is a message in the inbox for the account I had focus on in the inbox tree prior to shutting it down.

            I suspect this might be an initial startup after full system shutdown or use of Restart, as opposed to doing a shutdown when Fast Startup is enabled.  I will try a bit later today to do a shutdown (as I don't have Fast Startup enabled) then see what happens if I've got NVDA fired up and then start WLM 2012.  My gut tells me that this behavior is very context specific and once that context has been changed and stays changed it won't recur until the original context presents itself again.
--
Brian

    I don't find an uninformed hatred a "principled position" that I need to respect in any way.

        ~ Ellen Evans, soc.motss, 11/6/2004



Gene
 

I suspect that if you asked how to find a specific thing, you would get an answer either here or on another list.  I see no reason to believe that ribbons are inaccessible as you move into their structure.  Ribbons don't have structures within structures.  You can open a dialog or a menu from within a ribbon but you don't open another ribbon in a ribbon.  I have never had an accessibility problem with a dialog or a menu because it is opened from inside of a ribbon.  If a dialog or a menu isn't properly accessible, that's because it isn't designed properly from an accessibility standpoint.  But the ribbon isn't causing the problem. 
 
As I said, if you ask on this or other lists how to find a specific item using ribbons and not using short cuts, you have a good chance of getting an answer.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

I'll look at this again, but I'm almost certain I read it before. It's not the basic function, it's such things as defining column width, importing and exporting various kinds of file types and formats and such.  I always could find those things in standard pull downs--no matter how deep within they were.  My best guess is that once you get in a few layers that screen reading software does not read all possible choices within the ribbon structure.  I'll give it a go once again--don't recall how many such tutorials I have read in the past and spent several hours on each one comparing and testing; here goes again!



On 2/16/2017 1:06 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 09:28 am, Ron Canazzi wrote:

None who use ribbons for complex suite such as Office do anything other than memorize shortcuts to achieve basic functions.

And this is different than the menu driven system in what way, precisely?

No one has ever known exactly where to find "very seldom to almost never used" functions but did menu searches when there were menus and ribbon searches when there are ribbons to find them.

The ribbons are nothing more than a menu in different form.  It's not all that much easier to conduct an exhaustive search of a multi-level menu than it is to do the same with a ribbon control, it's just the precise "how" that's different.

How you use them in Excel is no different than how you use them in any ribbon-driven program.  Read the brief "how-to" I wrote which applies to any ribbon-controlled program in Windows.   It's impossible to get specific unless one is writing a "how-to" for a single program and even then you'll never cover all the options available in the various ribbons or menus and the multiple dialogs that each can spawn.  


--
Brian

    I don't find an uninformed hatred a "principled position" that I need to respect in any way.

        ~ Ellen Evans, soc.motss, 11/6/2004



--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Jacques <lists4js@...>
 

For what its worth, if Allow skim reading in Say All is checked in the NVDA keyboard dialogue, pressing up arrow as soon as the message is opened will set read to end in motion and read the message body top to bottom, if indeed so desired. Pressing delete key, the above-mentioned procedure will read the next message body without reading the header information.

 

Please make sure if the above-mentioned checkbox indeed is checked, else this approach obviously wont work. If memory serves, it is unchecked by default after a clean installation. I am running the latest RC and do not experience this behaving differently compared to previous builds.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, 16 February 2017 17:10
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

 

Whether it used to work or not, that isn't documented or expected behavior.  I have no idea if this might be restored or why the behavior has changed.  Simply issue the usual read to end command when you open a message.  I don't use thunderbird and I can't comment on this behavior stopping.  But I can tell you that when I was learning something about thunderbird a number of years ago, the way I got message bodies to read efficiently, that is without the subject line being read, was to use the read to end command in whatever screen-reader I was working with.  If the read to end command is inconvenient in whatever keyboard layout you are using, you may be able to make it far more convenient by doing something like having the caps lock key be an NVDA key.

 

You may have to experiment to see how long to wait after opening a message before issuing the command. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 8:49 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

 

Hi Brian,

When I used nvda 2016.4 when I opened a message I hit the up arrow key to
stop the reading of the subject line.  In rc1 this no longer works.  Thanks
for any help.

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:13 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Well I don't think that should happen at all. What happens if you use the
older version. I'd also advise against using a portable version on windows
10, it seldom works verywell.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Metzler " <gmtravel@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 7:13 PM
Subject: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi All,

I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1.  I am using wlm as my mail client.  It used
to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda would
start reading the message.  Now, I have to hit the key for it to read the
message.  Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be?  Thanks for
any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox