problem reading mail


Gene
 

Then don't use logic if parts of the categories organization of a ribbon are too arbitrary to make good sense, at least to you.  In an unfamiliar program, tab through every item in every ribbon and make notes of the key sequences to cause something to occur or something like a dialog to open when working in the program.  When working with menus, you do the same thing to use menus efficiently.  Most people don't down arrow to save as in the file menu and press enter.  They use short cut sequences, alt f a. 
 
As for the logic itself, isn't it logical that items dealing with copy and paste be found in the clipboard grouping category?  Isn't it logical that actions such as reply or forward be found in a ribbon e-mail program in a category called something like respond? 
 
Just because organization is different from what you are used to doesn't mean it is illogical.  You may like or dislike the organization but it is not illogical.
 
But again, if I use an item regularly, I memorize the sequence and I don't keep going through the ribbon to get to it. 
 
gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 3:55 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

I do agree totally. Ribbons  to me are like throwing toolbars, dialogues and
options all up in theaire and then when they land  joining them all together
in a random way with bits of string. Logic is out the window, and the pun
was intended.
 Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Shaun Everiss" <sm.everiss@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 7:48 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


> Actually what really gets my goat is that bar microsoft ribbons are not
> the industry standard.
> Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have
> ribbons.
> We will just have to download system hacking tools to turn it off.
> Issue is with windows updating itself we will have to rerun these hack
> tools every month.
> This is not what I hoped.
> Yes I can manage the ribbon for a few things but I still can't do a select
> all as such in explorer, replace multiple files at once without a tedious
> copy past op hitting alt y or space a bunch of times, etc.
> I have managed to load the right sequences in office I need to do my job
> which is to say update office and check for mail in outlook but I can't
> say I have mastered ribbons either.
> Its why I am still on win7 and will while I have a legal coppy continue.
> Ofcause if ms doesn't improve, I will have to decide if I continue to stay
> legal and get an older computer with win7 or not.
> Or simply get a win10 computer for the net, and a win7 or heck windows xp
> system so I can do everything else that doesn't need me to be online.
> I was hoping ms would realise that ribbons are just what it thinks they
> have not caught on like they thought.
> And I think we should have theo ption to run ribbons in office and windows
> or just menus as normal.
>
>
>
> On 17/02/2017 6:28 a.m., Ron Canazzi wrote:
>> ...and while I respect Gene for most issues, when ever he has said in
>> the past that ribbons are easy once you get used to them, and I ask
>> about just how to use them in Excel--he or any of the other 'get on the
>> ball blinky' advocates of ribbons have no clue as to how to answer me.
>> I have some basic shortcuts I have been given by those forced to use the
>> newer Excel and Access version, but that's about it.  None who use
>> ribbons for complex suite such as Office do anything other than memorize
>> shortcuts to achieve basic functions.  Fortunately some of the older
>> ones such as Control + S for save and alt + F, A for save as still work,
>> but having real command of ribbons in complex programs still alludes
>> most blind people.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2/16/2017 11:17 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
>>> Well I'm not rising to your bait. I meerely present what is not an
>>> uncommon view amongst blind users of windows.
>>>
>>> Brian
>>>
>>> bglists@...
>>> Sent via blueyonder.
>>> Please address personal email to:-
>>> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>>> in the display name field.
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
>>> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 1:12 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>>>
>>>
>>> What do you mean the only useable one.  You mean the only one you
>>> liked because you hate ribbons.  That is different than the only
>>> useable one.  The later version is perfectly useable.  If you are
>>> willing to use ribbons, it is just as useable as the old version.
>>>
>>> Microsoft doesn't provide the installer for the old version any longer
>>> but the full installer for the old version is available from
>>> individuals who have it.  I have it and I expect other list members
>>> have it as well.
>>>
>>> Outlook Express in the version that has been modified to work in
>>> Windows 7 and higher works well for some people and not for others.
>>> Gene
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> Gene----- Original Message -----
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Brian's Mail list account
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:29 AM
>>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>>>
>>>
>>> I think it happens on Windows Live mail but there are a number of
>>> different
>>> versions knocking around. To me the only usable one was the version
>>> using
>>> old style menus, which microsoft now seems to have removed as a
>>> download and
>>> the version is always asking to update or to go over tto the latest
>>> app. I
>>> don't think the app in 10 has support for Usenet so I'm loathe to do
>>> that
>>> change, and in any case Outlook express with the files that emulate
>>> the old
>>> html etc displays of xp seems to owork well and I do not begrudge the
>>> 20 Eu
>>> it costs for three keys at all as the guy is very helpful.
>>> This will do me for years unless nobody does pop3 email any more.
>>> Brian
>>>
>>> bglists@...
>>> Sent via blueyonder.
>>> Please address personal email to:-
>>> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>>> in the display name field.
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen"
>>> <quentin@...>
>>> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 10:36 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi Gary,
>>>>
>>>> I must admit I haven't been using the mail app much.  I just had a look
>>>> and
>>>> found a couple of times it opened the message and I had to press
>>>> NVDA+down
>>>> arrow to read, but most time (even on the same messages), it read fine.
>>>>
>>>> Would love to get some more info if anyone else is experiencing this
>>>> (or
>>>> not) and particularly if anyone can better pin down exactly when it
>>>> does
>>>> and doesn't read automatically?
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>> Quentin.
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 6:13 AM, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>
>>>>> I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1.  I am using wlm as my mail client.
>>>>> It
>>>>> used to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda
>>>>> would start reading the message.  Now, I have to hit the key for it to
>>>>> read
>>>>> the message.  Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be?
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> for any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Quentin Christensen
>>>> Training Material Developer
>>>> Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
>>>> available:
>>>> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>>>>
>>>> Ph +61 7 3149 3306
>>>> www.nvaccess.org
>>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>>>> Twitter: @NVAccess
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>




Brian's Mail list account
 

I think this has already been explained. Please don't start a war over this. I think intentions were valid and well meant, its just natural drift.

Brian

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Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Metzler " <gmtravel@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 11:56 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Ron,

Why did you hijack my message? What has ribbins to do with reading mail? It is just rude to hijack a thread.

From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 9:27 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

In many programs, the items simply do not stay in the exact same position as they would in traditional pull down menus. This is what I have not only experienced myself, but have been told by those more expert than me who teach the stuff. That's why the short cuts for predesignated functions are the only sure way to keep tactical control over what you're doing with ribbons in complex programs.





On 2/16/2017 1:31 PM, Gene wrote:

I've repeatedly sent instructions on using ribbons to the list. And I don't say that ribbons are easy to use because that is a blanket generalization that may not apply to everyone. I do believe that for the majority or most users, if ribbons are properly taught, they will not be difficult to use.

I can send my discussion about how to use ribbons again, if desired. The essence of working with ribbons is that you open the ribbon bar with alt. You left or right arrow to the ribbon you want to use as you do when moving to a menu. Then instead of up or down arrowing, you tab or shift tab.

There is more to learn than that but that is the essence of understanding the organization of ribbons in the most simple introductory framework.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 11:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

...and while I respect Gene for most issues, when ever he has said in
the past that ribbons are easy once you get used to them, and I ask
about just how to use them in Excel--he or any of the other 'get on the
ball blinky' advocates of ribbons have no clue as to how to answer me.
I have some basic shortcuts I have been given by those forced to use the
newer Excel and Access version, but that's about it. None who use
ribbons for complex suite such as Office do anything other than memorize
shortcuts to achieve basic functions. Fortunately some of the older
ones such as Control + S for save and alt + F, A for save as still work,
but having real command of ribbons in complex programs still alludes
most blind people.



On 2/16/2017 11:17 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
> Well I'm not rising to your bait. I meerely present what is not an
> uncommon view amongst blind users of windows.
>
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 1:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
> What do you mean the only useable one. You mean the only one you
> liked because you hate ribbons. That is different than the only
> useable one. The later version is perfectly useable. If you are
> willing to use ribbons, it is just as useable as the old version.
>
> Microsoft doesn't provide the installer for the old version any longer
> but the full installer for the old version is available from
> individuals who have it. I have it and I expect other list members
> have it as well.
>
> Outlook Express in the version that has been modified to work in
> Windows 7 and higher works well for some people and not for others.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> Gene----- Original Message -----
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Brian's Mail list account
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:29 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
> I think it happens on Windows Live mail but there are a number of
> different
> versions knocking around. To me the only usable one was the version using
> old style menus, which microsoft now seems to have removed as a
> download and
> the version is always asking to update or to go over tto the latest
> app. I
> don't think the app in 10 has support for Usenet so I'm loathe to do that
> change, and in any case Outlook express with the files that emulate
> the old
> html etc displays of xp seems to owork well and I do not begrudge the
> 20 Eu
> it costs for three keys at all as the guy is very helpful.
> This will do me for years unless nobody does pop3 email any more.
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen"
> <quentin@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 10:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
>> Hi Gary,
>>
>> I must admit I haven't been using the mail app much. I just had a look
>> and
>> found a couple of times it opened the message and I had to press
>> NVDA+down
>> arrow to read, but most time (even on the same messages), it read fine.
>>
>> Would love to get some more info if anyone else is experiencing this (or
>> not) and particularly if anyone can better pin down exactly when it does
>> and doesn't read automatically?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Quentin.
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 6:13 AM, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1. I am using wlm as my mail client. It
>>> used to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda
>>> would start reading the message. Now, I have to hit the key for it to
>>> read
>>> the message. Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be?
>>> Thanks
>>> for any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Quentin Christensen
>> Training Material Developer
>> Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
>> available:
>> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>>
>> Ph +61 7 3149 3306
>> www.nvaccess.org
>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>> Twitter: @NVAccess
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"






--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Brian's Mail list account
 

Be careful about portable versions in w indows 10 though, as things often do not work as they did in Windows 7. Too much use of uia in 10 makes portable nvda nowhere near as useful
try it on ccleaner for example to see the kind of things that happen.
Brian

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Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 11:59 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


At this point, we don't know if you would have this problem if you went back to an earlier version of NVDA. You should go back and see. You could try a portable version and see if you have the same problem while leaving the current version installed or you could uninstall the current version and install an earlier one. But according to your message, your problem is much more than just not being able to use the up arrow when reading a message.

We don't know if something happened to Outlook that is coincidentally causing the problem or if they new version is the cause.
Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Gary Metzler
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 2:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi Gene,

After I read your message I wanted t go back and read it line by line. I wasn’t able to do this. I had to use the alt tab keys to change the focus so I could read your message. I don’t remember this happeneing with nvda 2016.4.Hi

From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:54 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

first, have you checked to make sure skim reading is still enabled? The update may have incorrectly changed the setting.

If the command is still correct, you may wish to read my further comments out of interest but they will be unnecessary to try to find a work around for the problem.
I should change or perhaps correct something I said earlier. this may not be an intended use of skim mode but it appears that it might do what you are describing. That raises the possibility that the problem might be addressed by the developers. It looks to me as though it is an unintended use of the feature but one that might be expected to work if skim reading is enabled. Here is the description from the manual, which I just looked up.
If on, certain navigation commands (such as quick navigation in browse mode or moving by line or paragraph) do not stop Say All, rather Say All jumps to the new position and continues reading.
Assuming you didn't change any settings either in your e-mail program or in NVDA, say all should automatically start when you open a message. What you are doing is using the move up by line command to try to move up a line when you can't. NVDA interrupts whatever it was speaking and starts to read from the current line.

While I understand why this worked in older versions, since it was very likely an unintended use of the command, I have no idea if the developers will try to restore the previous behavior if the command works correctly in general. My suggestion of using the read to end command should work just as welland, since there is no question that it does what is expected, it will continue to work regardless of updates unless the command is incorrectly implemented in a later version. And if it is, the developers would be expected to address the problem.

I can't comment on using the laptop layout but if you set NVDA to use the caps lock as a modifier, using caps lock down arrow is not, in any meaningful sense, more difficult and I think you would quickly get used to the new command.

It's better to use correct commands in general. Incorrect commands may not work in all contexts and they may stop working, as in this context, with the possibility of restoration uncertain.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 9:09 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Whether it used to work or not, that isn't documented or expected behavior. I have no idea if this might be restored or why the behavior has changed. Simply issue the usual read to end command when you open a message. I don't use thunderbird and I can't comment on this behavior stopping. But I can tell you that when I was learning something about thunderbird a number of years ago, the way I got message bodies to read efficiently, that is without the subject line being read, was to use the read to end command in whatever screen-reader I was working with. If the read to end command is inconvenient in whatever keyboard layout you are using, you may be able to make it far more convenient by doing something like having the caps lock key be an NVDA key.

You may have to experiment to see how long to wait after opening a message before issuing the command.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Gary Metzler
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 8:49 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Hi Brian,

When I used nvda 2016.4 when I opened a message I hit the up arrow key to
stop the reading of the subject line. In rc1 this no longer works. Thanks
for any help.

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:13 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Well I don't think that should happen at all. What happens if you use the
older version. I'd also advise against using a portable version on windows
10, it seldom works verywell.
Brian

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Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Metzler " <gmtravel@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 7:13 PM
Subject: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi All,

I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1. I am using wlm as my mail client. It used
to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda would
start reading the message. Now, I have to hit the key for it to read the
message. Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be? Thanks for
any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox


Brian's Mail list account
 

I now have the xp wordpad in 7....
Brian

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Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Rosemarie Chavarria" <knitqueen2007@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 12:46 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi, Gene,



I had bought the book because at that time I was going from windows XP to windows 7. It had a section on how to navigate the ribbon in wordpad.



Rosemarie







From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail



Brian sent a discussion of how to work with ribbons and I offered to send one I wrote and have sent to the list before. Looking at both might be useful. If doing so doesn't answer your questions or allow you to understand most or all of working with ribbons, you might want to buy something but purchasing something may well not be necessary.



Gene

----- original Message -----

From: Rosemarie Chavarria <mailto:knitqueen2007@...>

Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:22 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail



Hi,

The book is mainly about windows 7 and vista but there is a section about learning the ribbon.



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Hmmm I will have to investigate in that book my wordprocessing course was done on office xp back in the day.
If there is a book on ribbons then I will buy and read it.



On 17/02/2017 11:34 a.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
Hi, Brian,



I think what helped me learn about the ribbon interface was a book that I bought from National Braille Press. I also took a course on word processing through Hadley School for the Blind and there was a section on learning the ribbon in wordpad. I agree with you here. It's not about going backward but advancing.



Rosemarie







From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:00 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail



On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote:

Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons.

Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore." Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design. There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of

And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not. They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc.

None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with. When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on.

I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here. The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive." There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible.

I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts. I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form. After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system. I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first." This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market.


Brian's Mail list account
 

One assumes this is from the blind point of view. I have read many web so called tutorials on ribbons and all are from a sighted point of view, which also often are illustrated by pictures. Not a lot of help.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Rosemarie Chavarria" <knitqueen2007@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 12:22 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi,

The book is mainly about windows 7 and vista but there is a section about learning the ribbon.



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Hmmm I will have to investigate in that book my wordprocessing course was done on office xp back in the day.
If there is a book on ribbons then I will buy and read it.



On 17/02/2017 11:34 a.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
Hi, Brian,



I think what helped me learn about the ribbon interface was a book that I bought from National Braille Press. I also took a course on word processing through Hadley School for the Blind and there was a section on learning the ribbon in wordpad. I agree with you here. It's not about going backward but advancing.



Rosemarie







From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:00 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail



On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote:

Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons.

Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore." Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design. There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of

And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not. They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc.

None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with. When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on.

I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here. The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive." There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible.

I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts. I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form. After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system. I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first." This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market.


Brian's Mail list account
 

I think this came about because somebody said that if its a different version of mail the way to do something is different.

Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Metzler " <gmtravel@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 11:14 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi All,

I thought that hijacking someone eslses message thread was poor e mail edicate? My message had nothing to do with ribbins.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Metzler
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:49 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Hi Brian

I didn't make any changes to my wlm setup. This started happening when I
updated to rc1.


-----Original Message-----
From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 11:19 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Has perhaps a parameter been added that needs to be ticked or umticked? I
had a quick look at this on another machine and could find no difference.
Its probably the way the email client was set up which has revealed this
change. Anyone?
Does not seem to affect Outlook express.
Do you use the preview pane? I always turn this off.

Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Metzler " <gmtravel@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi Brian,

When I used nvda 2016.4 when I opened a message I hit the up arrow key to stop the reading of the subject line. In rc1 this no longer works. Thanks for any help.

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:13 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Well I don't think that should happen at all. What happens if you use the
older version. I'd also advise against using a portable version on windows
10, it seldom works verywell.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Metzler " <gmtravel@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 7:13 PM
Subject: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi All,

I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1. I am using wlm as my mail client. It used
to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda would
start reading the message. Now, I have to hit the key for it to read the
message. Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be? Thanks for
any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox














Brian's Mail list account
 

Its only an advance if its actually better in some way, but to my mind this is not the case with ribbons. Often its a conceptual issue in ones brain. Its hard to re learn a system that is similar to one already learned. It would almost have been better if there was an entirely new concept rather than a menue with stuff hanging off of it as ribbons are.
I also never did have a sense of direction which probably does not help either!
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Rosemarie Chavarria" <knitqueen2007@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 10:34 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi, Brian,



I think what helped me learn about the ribbon interface was a book that I bought from National Braille Press. I also took a course on word processing through Hadley School for the Blind and there was a section on learning the ribbon in wordpad. I agree with you here. It's not about going backward but advancing.



Rosemarie







From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:00 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail



On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote:

Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons.

Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore." Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design. There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of

And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not. They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc.

None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with. When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on.

I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here. The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive." There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible.

I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts. I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form. After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system. I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first." This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market.
--
Brian

I don't find an uninformed hatred a "principled position" that I need to respect in any way.

~ Ellen Evans, soc.motss, 11/6/2004


Brian's Mail list account
 

No not in 7, only after that and I have a hack for windows 10 to put back ordinary menus in explorer until a major update. I do use other things like old versions of Office as long as I can as I have tried various new versions over the years ang got into a heck of a muddle with illogical down along down up right down and hey, where am I?
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 7:59 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote:


Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have
ribbons.
Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore." Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design. There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of

And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not. They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc.

None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with. When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on.

I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here. The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive." There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible.

I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts. I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form. After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system. I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first." This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market.
--
*Brian*

I don't find an uninformed hatred a "principled position" that I need to respect in any way.

~ *Ellen Evans * , soc.motss , 11/6/2004


Brian's Mail list account
 

Well to save a lot of hassle for you, why not just raise an issue on github defining the idiosyncracies you found against what happens in the current stable and let the devs figure it out or suggest a work around?
Since I no longer use wlm daily I'm a bit rusty on this. It seems not to affect Outlook express, though I do have to say Windows 10s tendency to announce English United Kingdom all over the place is a bit annoying.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Gene,

I just tried the restart system, followed by firing up NVDA 2017.RC1, fire up WLM 2012 and got a behavior that was different than I did the last time (or at least what I recall because I got no announcement of "pane" and I absolutely know I did previously.

This time NVDA announced the WLM 2012 splash screen, the main window opened and NVDA said "English, US" and nothing else and there appeared to be no NVDA focus on anything. When I then hit a single tab it placed me on the reading pane for the message in the inbox that was shown as having focus and began reading it from top to bottom. If I shift+tabbed back to the inbox message list I had focus on the message in the inbox.

The last time I did this I might have fired up WLM 2012 before NVDA, so that's the next attempt. But whatever I did I know that when I hit tab to go to the inbox the NVDA add-on that shows you what it's got focus on had a red square around the whole inbox area and announced "pane." How to make that recur again is the question.

Since I'm not an actual NVDA user from a "this is how I access my computer" perspective my entry points into NVDA and individual programs probably differ between invocations of NVDA, the programs, or both much more than someone who has a "keyboard routine" might - though that's pure speculation on my part.

--
*Brian*

I don't find an uninformed hatred a "principled position" that I need to respect in any way.

~ *Ellen Evans * , soc.motss , 11/6/2004


Brian's Mail list account
 

I do agree totally. Ribbons to me are like throwing toolbars, dialogues and options all up in theaire and then when they land joining them all together in a random way with bits of string. Logic is out the window, and the pun was intended.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Shaun Everiss" <sm.everiss@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 7:48 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Actually what really gets my goat is that bar microsoft ribbons are not the industry standard.
Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons.
We will just have to download system hacking tools to turn it off.
Issue is with windows updating itself we will have to rerun these hack tools every month.
This is not what I hoped.
Yes I can manage the ribbon for a few things but I still can't do a select all as such in explorer, replace multiple files at once without a tedious copy past op hitting alt y or space a bunch of times, etc.
I have managed to load the right sequences in office I need to do my job which is to say update office and check for mail in outlook but I can't say I have mastered ribbons either.
Its why I am still on win7 and will while I have a legal coppy continue.
Ofcause if ms doesn't improve, I will have to decide if I continue to stay legal and get an older computer with win7 or not.
Or simply get a win10 computer for the net, and a win7 or heck windows xp system so I can do everything else that doesn't need me to be online.
I was hoping ms would realise that ribbons are just what it thinks they have not caught on like they thought.
And I think we should have theo ption to run ribbons in office and windows or just menus as normal.



On 17/02/2017 6:28 a.m., Ron Canazzi wrote:
...and while I respect Gene for most issues, when ever he has said in
the past that ribbons are easy once you get used to them, and I ask
about just how to use them in Excel--he or any of the other 'get on the
ball blinky' advocates of ribbons have no clue as to how to answer me.
I have some basic shortcuts I have been given by those forced to use the
newer Excel and Access version, but that's about it. None who use
ribbons for complex suite such as Office do anything other than memorize
shortcuts to achieve basic functions. Fortunately some of the older
ones such as Control + S for save and alt + F, A for save as still work,
but having real command of ribbons in complex programs still alludes
most blind people.



On 2/16/2017 11:17 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
Well I'm not rising to your bait. I meerely present what is not an
uncommon view amongst blind users of windows.

Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


What do you mean the only useable one. You mean the only one you
liked because you hate ribbons. That is different than the only
useable one. The later version is perfectly useable. If you are
willing to use ribbons, it is just as useable as the old version.

Microsoft doesn't provide the installer for the old version any longer
but the full installer for the old version is available from
individuals who have it. I have it and I expect other list members
have it as well.

Outlook Express in the version that has been modified to work in
Windows 7 and higher works well for some people and not for others.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene----- Original Message -----
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


I think it happens on Windows Live mail but there are a number of
different
versions knocking around. To me the only usable one was the version using
old style menus, which microsoft now seems to have removed as a
download and
the version is always asking to update or to go over tto the latest
app. I
don't think the app in 10 has support for Usenet so I'm loathe to do that
change, and in any case Outlook express with the files that emulate
the old
html etc displays of xp seems to owork well and I do not begrudge the
20 Eu
it costs for three keys at all as the guy is very helpful.
This will do me for years unless nobody does pop3 email any more.
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen"
<quentin@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi Gary,

I must admit I haven't been using the mail app much. I just had a look
and
found a couple of times it opened the message and I had to press
NVDA+down
arrow to read, but most time (even on the same messages), it read fine.

Would love to get some more info if anyone else is experiencing this (or
not) and particularly if anyone can better pin down exactly when it does
and doesn't read automatically?

Regards

Quentin.

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 6:13 AM, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
wrote:

Hi All,

I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1. I am using wlm as my mail client. It
used to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda
would start reading the message. Now, I have to hit the key for it to
read
the message. Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be?
Thanks
for any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox



--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess







Brian's Mail list account
 

No its not that. its merely that intuitively things are not on the branch you think they are and you get lost in the levels then and forget where you branched.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Canazzi" <aa2vm@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:54 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


I'll look at this again, but I'm almost certain I read it before. It's
not the basic function, it's such things as defining column width,
importing and exporting various kinds of file types and formats and
such. I always could find those things in standard pull downs--no
matter how deep within they were. My best guess is that once you get in
a few layers that screen reading software does not read all possible
choices within the ribbon structure. I'll give it a go once again--don't
recall how many such tutorials I have read in the past and spent several
hours on each one comparing and testing; here goes again!



On 2/16/2017 1:06 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 09:28 am, Ron Canazzi wrote:

None who use ribbons for complex suite such as Office do anything
other than memorize shortcuts to achieve basic functions.

And this is different than the menu driven system in what way, precisely?

No one has ever known exactly where to find "very seldom to almost
never used" functions but did menu searches when there were menus and
ribbon searches when there are ribbons to find them.

The ribbons are nothing more than a menu in different form. It's not
all that much easier to conduct an exhaustive search of a multi-level
menu than it is to do the same with a ribbon control, it's just the
precise "how" that's different.

How you use them in Excel is no different than how you use them in any
ribbon-driven program. Read the brief "how-to" I wrote which applies
to any ribbon-controlled program in Windows. It's impossible to get
specific unless one is writing a "how-to" for a single program and
even then you'll never cover all the options available in the various
ribbons or menus and the multiple dialogs that each can spawn.

* Using the Ribbon Interface in Windows via the Keyboard
<https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B98uELZbPFnOTUI1dDhDaHpwTk0>


--
*/Brian/*

/I don't find an uninformed hatred a "principled position" //that I
need to respect in any way./

~ */Ellen Evans/*/, /soc.motss/, /11/6/2004


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Brian's Mail list account
 

I still don't agree with you. I think that there are only a given number of logical headings where a function can be found on a menu bar, but on a ribbon it depends where you branch as you go down which is a much harder concept to visualise in you mind. I also have problems in many tree views for similar reasons, such as in the registry editor etc. One cannot find your way back to something you missed.

I suspect a lot of it depends on how you visualise the information in your mind.
People brought up with some sight and using the menu bar have no concept of the ribbon system to fall back on if they lost their last sight in between.
I will however say this.
I have many sighted friends who keep on wanting the little bit of code that makes Windows 10 explorer into menu bar not ribbons.
Of course you have to run it after every major update but that is no real hassle.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:06 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 09:28 am, Ron Canazzi wrote:




None who use ribbons for complex suite such as Office do anything other
than memorize shortcuts to achieve basic functions.

And this is different than the menu driven system in what way, precisely?

No one has ever known exactly where to find "very seldom to almost never used" functions but did menu searches when there were menus and ribbon searches when there are ribbons to find them.

The ribbons are nothing more than a menu in different form. It's not all that much easier to conduct an exhaustive search of a multi-level menu than it is to do the same with a ribbon control, it's just the precise "how" that's different.

How you use them in Excel is no different than how you use them in any ribbon-driven program. Read the brief "how-to" I wrote which applies to any ribbon-controlled program in Windows. It's impossible to get specific unless one is writing a "how-to" for a single program and even then you'll never cover all the options available in the various ribbons or menus and the multiple dialogs that each can spawn.

* Using the Ribbon Interface in Windows via the Keyboard ( https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B98uELZbPFnOTUI1dDhDaHpwTk0 )


--
*Brian*

I don't find an uninformed hatred a "principled position" that I need to respect in any way.

~ *Ellen Evans * , soc.motss , 11/6/2004


Brian's Mail list account
 

The preview reading pane is always switched off here and I tab or open the normal pane instead.
The preview pane slugs nvda and causes multiple reading of the lists and folders I find.
This has always been the case though so if this is a new issue I cannot say any more, as I said, I'm happier in Outlook express having so many addresses that need to be kept apart and have different sig lines etc.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Gary,

Are you using WLM 2012? Do you have the reading pane turned on or off?

I have just had an instance where I started up WLM 2012 (and I have the reading pane turned on) where when I tabbed to the inbox list I got nothing but "pane" when it first landed on it and the focus was actually shown as on the whole pane itself rather than a message in the inbox. Once I tabbed then Shift+tabbed things went back to normal.

I have not, as yet, been able to replicate that "entry behavior" when I shut down WLM 2012 and restart it. I have not restarted my machine to see if that has anything to do with the "pane" announcement.

It's a PITA when you encounter stuff like this but can't figure out how to "force the issue" again. Developers can't fix something they can't make happen so that they can figure out why it's happening. If you've experienced a pattern with when this happens that would be useful to know.
--
*Brian*

I don't find an uninformed hatred a "principled position" that I need to respect in any way.

~ *Ellen Evans * , soc.motss , 11/6/2004


Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
 

Hi Ron,
 
Thanks for that.
 
From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 12:24 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
 

I wasn't aware that I hijacked your message.  In fact, I read the thread and it was long since changed in character.  If anything, I simply may have added to it after the fact.  For this I apologize.

 


On 2/17/2017 6:56 PM, Gary Metzler wrote:
Ron,
 
Why did you hijack my message?  What has ribbins to do with reading mail?  It is just rude to hijack a thread.
 
From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 9:27 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
 

In many programs, the items simply do not stay in the exact same position as they would in traditional pull down menus.  This is what I have not only experienced myself, but have been told by those more expert than me who teach the stuff. That's why the short cuts for predesignated functions are the only sure way to keep tactical control over what you're doing with ribbons in complex programs.

 


On 2/16/2017 1:31 PM, Gene wrote:
I've repeatedly sent instructions on using ribbons to the list.  And I don't say that ribbons are easy to use because that is a blanket generalization that may not apply to everyone.  I do believe that for the majority or most users, if ribbons are properly taught, they will not be difficult to use. 
 
I can send my discussion about how to use ribbons again, if desired.  The essence of working with ribbons is that you open the ribbon bar with alt.  You left or right arrow to the ribbon you want to use as you do when moving to a menu.  Then instead of up or down arrowing, you tab or shift tab.
 
There is more to learn than that but that is the essence of understanding the organization of ribbons in the most simple introductory framework. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 11:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
 
...and while I respect Gene for most issues, when ever he has said in
the past that ribbons are easy once you get used to them, and I ask
about just how to use them in Excel--he or any of the other 'get on the
ball blinky' advocates of ribbons have no clue as to how to answer me. 
I have some basic shortcuts I have been given by those forced to use the
newer Excel and Access version, but that's about it.  None who use
ribbons for complex suite such as Office do anything other than memorize
shortcuts to achieve basic functions.  Fortunately some of the older
ones such as Control + S for save and alt + F, A for save as still work,
but having real command of ribbons in complex programs still alludes
most blind people.



On 2/16/2017 11:17 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
> Well I'm not rising to your bait. I meerely present what is not an
> uncommon view amongst blind users of windows.
>
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 1:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
> What do you mean the only useable one.  You mean the only one you
> liked because you hate ribbons.  That is different than the only
> useable one.  The later version is perfectly useable.  If you are
> willing to use ribbons, it is just as useable as the old version.
>
> Microsoft doesn't provide the installer for the old version any longer
> but the full installer for the old version is available from
> individuals who have it.  I have it and I expect other list members
> have it as well.
>
> Outlook Express in the version that has been modified to work in
> Windows 7 and higher works well for some people and not for others.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> Gene----- Original Message -----
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Brian's Mail list account
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:29 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
> I think it happens on Windows Live mail but there are a number of
> different
> versions knocking around. To me the only usable one was the version using
> old style menus, which microsoft now seems to have removed as a
> download and
> the version is always asking to update or to go over tto the latest
> app. I
> don't think the app in 10 has support for Usenet so I'm loathe to do that
> change, and in any case Outlook express with the files that emulate
> the old
> html etc displays of xp seems to owork well and I do not begrudge the
> 20 Eu
> it costs for three keys at all as the guy is very helpful.
> This will do me for years unless nobody does pop3 email any more.
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen"
> <quentin@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 10:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
>> Hi Gary,
>>
>> I must admit I haven't been using the mail app much.  I just had a look
>> and
>> found a couple of times it opened the message and I had to press
>> NVDA+down
>> arrow to read, but most time (even on the same messages), it read fine.
>>
>> Would love to get some more info if anyone else is experiencing this (or
>> not) and particularly if anyone can better pin down exactly when it does
>> and doesn't read automatically?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Quentin.
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 6:13 AM, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1.  I am using wlm as my mail client.  It
>>> used to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda
>>> would start reading the message.  Now, I have to hit the key for it to
>>> read
>>> the message.  Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be?
>>> Thanks
>>> for any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Quentin Christensen
>> Training Material Developer
>> Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
>> available:
>> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>>
>> Ph +61 7 3149 3306
>> www.nvaccess.org
>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>> Twitter: @NVAccess
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"




--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Ron Canazzi
 

Yes, this is correct and I think I picked the thread up in mid stream after the ribbons issue was already the focus.



On 2/17/2017 8:23 PM, Gene wrote:
Messages are routinely hijacked or topics drift off the subject line routinely on all three active lists I'm on.  No list I'm on tries to enforce adhereing to subject lines with any seriousness.  Subject line drift or message hijacking are so common that it isn't personal.  It may be rude in that list members can't tell if a subject refers to the topic being discussed but it isn't intended as rudeness directed toward anyone, just neglect and lack of caring on the part of message writers.  And a lot of subject lines, even at the outset, have nothing to do with the message content.  Subject lines such as, A question, Help, and other such lines are also common.  All these practices are so common that they are considered to be just a part of life on a lot of lists. 
 
While I agree with you that subject lines should reflect content, changing such practices may be more time and trouble than its worth. 
 
If you want to change a subject line to reflect content, you may do so in threads where someone is writing in your thread on a subject that isn't related to the subject line. 
 
If you want to see if you can persuade the list owner and moderator, I am the moderator, to try to enforce subject lines, please continue the discussion by writing to the contact the owner's address,
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 5:56 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Ron,
 
Why did you hijack my message?  What has ribbins to do with reading mail?  It is just rude to hijack a thread.
 
From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
 

In many programs, the items simply do not stay in the exact same position as they would in traditional pull down menus.  This is what I have not only experienced myself, but have been told by those more expert than me who teach the stuff. That's why the short cuts for predesignated functions are the only sure way to keep tactical control over what you're doing with ribbons in complex programs.

 


On 2/16/2017 1:31 PM, Gene wrote:
I've repeatedly sent instructions on using ribbons to the list.  And I don't say that ribbons are easy to use because that is a blanket generalization that may not apply to everyone.  I do believe that for the majority or most users, if ribbons are properly taught, they will not be difficult to use. 
 
I can send my discussion about how to use ribbons again, if desired.  The essence of working with ribbons is that you open the ribbon bar with alt.  You left or right arrow to the ribbon you want to use as you do when moving to a menu.  Then instead of up or down arrowing, you tab or shift tab.
 
There is more to learn than that but that is the essence of understanding the organization of ribbons in the most simple introductory framework. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 11:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
 
...and while I respect Gene for most issues, when ever he has said in
the past that ribbons are easy once you get used to them, and I ask
about just how to use them in Excel--he or any of the other 'get on the
ball blinky' advocates of ribbons have no clue as to how to answer me. 
I have some basic shortcuts I have been given by those forced to use the
newer Excel and Access version, but that's about it.  None who use
ribbons for complex suite such as Office do anything other than memorize
shortcuts to achieve basic functions.  Fortunately some of the older
ones such as Control + S for save and alt + F, A for save as still work,
but having real command of ribbons in complex programs still alludes
most blind people.



On 2/16/2017 11:17 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
> Well I'm not rising to your bait. I meerely present what is not an
> uncommon view amongst blind users of windows.
>
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 1:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
> What do you mean the only useable one.  You mean the only one you
> liked because you hate ribbons.  That is different than the only
> useable one.  The later version is perfectly useable.  If you are
> willing to use ribbons, it is just as useable as the old version.
>
> Microsoft doesn't provide the installer for the old version any longer
> but the full installer for the old version is available from
> individuals who have it.  I have it and I expect other list members
> have it as well.
>
> Outlook Express in the version that has been modified to work in
> Windows 7 and higher works well for some people and not for others.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> Gene----- Original Message -----
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Brian's Mail list account
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:29 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
> I think it happens on Windows Live mail but there are a number of
> different
> versions knocking around. To me the only usable one was the version using
> old style menus, which microsoft now seems to have removed as a
> download and
> the version is always asking to update or to go over tto the latest
> app. I
> don't think the app in 10 has support for Usenet so I'm loathe to do that
> change, and in any case Outlook express with the files that emulate
> the old
> html etc displays of xp seems to owork well and I do not begrudge the
> 20 Eu
> it costs for three keys at all as the guy is very helpful.
> This will do me for years unless nobody does pop3 email any more.
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen"
> <quentin@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 10:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
>> Hi Gary,
>>
>> I must admit I haven't been using the mail app much.  I just had a look
>> and
>> found a couple of times it opened the message and I had to press
>> NVDA+down
>> arrow to read, but most time (even on the same messages), it read fine.
>>
>> Would love to get some more info if anyone else is experiencing this (or
>> not) and particularly if anyone can better pin down exactly when it does
>> and doesn't read automatically?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Quentin.
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 6:13 AM, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1.  I am using wlm as my mail client.  It
>>> used to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda
>>> would start reading the message.  Now, I have to hit the key for it to
>>> read
>>> the message.  Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be?
>>> Thanks
>>> for any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Quentin Christensen
>> Training Material Developer
>> Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
>> available:
>> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>>
>> Ph +61 7 3149 3306
>> www.nvaccess.org
>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>> Twitter: @NVAccess
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"




--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Ron Canazzi
 

I wasn't aware that I hijacked your message.  In fact, I read the thread and it was long since changed in character.  If anything, I simply may have added to it after the fact.  For this I apologize.



On 2/17/2017 6:56 PM, Gary Metzler wrote:
Ron,
 
Why did you hijack my message?  What has ribbins to do with reading mail?  It is just rude to hijack a thread.
 
From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 9:27 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
 

In many programs, the items simply do not stay in the exact same position as they would in traditional pull down menus.  This is what I have not only experienced myself, but have been told by those more expert than me who teach the stuff. That's why the short cuts for predesignated functions are the only sure way to keep tactical control over what you're doing with ribbons in complex programs.

 


On 2/16/2017 1:31 PM, Gene wrote:
I've repeatedly sent instructions on using ribbons to the list.  And I don't say that ribbons are easy to use because that is a blanket generalization that may not apply to everyone.  I do believe that for the majority or most users, if ribbons are properly taught, they will not be difficult to use. 
 
I can send my discussion about how to use ribbons again, if desired.  The essence of working with ribbons is that you open the ribbon bar with alt.  You left or right arrow to the ribbon you want to use as you do when moving to a menu.  Then instead of up or down arrowing, you tab or shift tab.
 
There is more to learn than that but that is the essence of understanding the organization of ribbons in the most simple introductory framework. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 11:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
 
...and while I respect Gene for most issues, when ever he has said in
the past that ribbons are easy once you get used to them, and I ask
about just how to use them in Excel--he or any of the other 'get on the
ball blinky' advocates of ribbons have no clue as to how to answer me. 
I have some basic shortcuts I have been given by those forced to use the
newer Excel and Access version, but that's about it.  None who use
ribbons for complex suite such as Office do anything other than memorize
shortcuts to achieve basic functions.  Fortunately some of the older
ones such as Control + S for save and alt + F, A for save as still work,
but having real command of ribbons in complex programs still alludes
most blind people.



On 2/16/2017 11:17 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
> Well I'm not rising to your bait. I meerely present what is not an
> uncommon view amongst blind users of windows.
>
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 1:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
> What do you mean the only useable one.  You mean the only one you
> liked because you hate ribbons.  That is different than the only
> useable one.  The later version is perfectly useable.  If you are
> willing to use ribbons, it is just as useable as the old version.
>
> Microsoft doesn't provide the installer for the old version any longer
> but the full installer for the old version is available from
> individuals who have it.  I have it and I expect other list members
> have it as well.
>
> Outlook Express in the version that has been modified to work in
> Windows 7 and higher works well for some people and not for others.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> Gene----- Original Message -----
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Brian's Mail list account
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:29 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
> I think it happens on Windows Live mail but there are a number of
> different
> versions knocking around. To me the only usable one was the version using
> old style menus, which microsoft now seems to have removed as a
> download and
> the version is always asking to update or to go over tto the latest
> app. I
> don't think the app in 10 has support for Usenet so I'm loathe to do that
> change, and in any case Outlook express with the files that emulate
> the old
> html etc displays of xp seems to owork well and I do not begrudge the
> 20 Eu
> it costs for three keys at all as the guy is very helpful.
> This will do me for years unless nobody does pop3 email any more.
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen"
> <quentin@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 10:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
>> Hi Gary,
>>
>> I must admit I haven't been using the mail app much.  I just had a look
>> and
>> found a couple of times it opened the message and I had to press
>> NVDA+down
>> arrow to read, but most time (even on the same messages), it read fine.
>>
>> Would love to get some more info if anyone else is experiencing this (or
>> not) and particularly if anyone can better pin down exactly when it does
>> and doesn't read automatically?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Quentin.
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 6:13 AM, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1.  I am using wlm as my mail client.  It
>>> used to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda
>>> would start reading the message.  Now, I have to hit the key for it to
>>> read
>>> the message.  Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be?
>>> Thanks
>>> for any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Quentin Christensen
>> Training Material Developer
>> Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
>> available:
>> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>>
>> Ph +61 7 3149 3306
>> www.nvaccess.org
>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>> Twitter: @NVAccess
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"




--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Gene
 

Messages are routinely hijacked or topics drift off the subject line routinely on all three active lists I'm on.  No list I'm on tries to enforce adhereing to subject lines with any seriousness.  Subject line drift or message hijacking are so common that it isn't personal.  It may be rude in that list members can't tell if a subject refers to the topic being discussed but it isn't intended as rudeness directed toward anyone, just neglect and lack of caring on the part of message writers.  And a lot of subject lines, even at the outset, have nothing to do with the message content.  Subject lines such as, A question, Help, and other such lines are also common.  All these practices are so common that they are considered to be just a part of life on a lot of lists. 
 
While I agree with you that subject lines should reflect content, changing such practices may be more time and trouble than its worth. 
 
If you want to change a subject line to reflect content, you may do so in threads where someone is writing in your thread on a subject that isn't related to the subject line. 
 
If you want to see if you can persuade the list owner and moderator, I am the moderator, to try to enforce subject lines, please continue the discussion by writing to the contact the owner's address,
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 5:56 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Ron,
 
Why did you hijack my message?  What has ribbins to do with reading mail?  It is just rude to hijack a thread.
 
From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
 

In many programs, the items simply do not stay in the exact same position as they would in traditional pull down menus.  This is what I have not only experienced myself, but have been told by those more expert than me who teach the stuff. That's why the short cuts for predesignated functions are the only sure way to keep tactical control over what you're doing with ribbons in complex programs.

 


On 2/16/2017 1:31 PM, Gene wrote:
I've repeatedly sent instructions on using ribbons to the list.  And I don't say that ribbons are easy to use because that is a blanket generalization that may not apply to everyone.  I do believe that for the majority or most users, if ribbons are properly taught, they will not be difficult to use. 
 
I can send my discussion about how to use ribbons again, if desired.  The essence of working with ribbons is that you open the ribbon bar with alt.  You left or right arrow to the ribbon you want to use as you do when moving to a menu.  Then instead of up or down arrowing, you tab or shift tab.
 
There is more to learn than that but that is the essence of understanding the organization of ribbons in the most simple introductory framework. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 11:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
 
...and while I respect Gene for most issues, when ever he has said in
the past that ribbons are easy once you get used to them, and I ask
about just how to use them in Excel--he or any of the other 'get on the
ball blinky' advocates of ribbons have no clue as to how to answer me. 
I have some basic shortcuts I have been given by those forced to use the
newer Excel and Access version, but that's about it.  None who use
ribbons for complex suite such as Office do anything other than memorize
shortcuts to achieve basic functions.  Fortunately some of the older
ones such as Control + S for save and alt + F, A for save as still work,
but having real command of ribbons in complex programs still alludes
most blind people.



On 2/16/2017 11:17 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
> Well I'm not rising to your bait. I meerely present what is not an
> uncommon view amongst blind users of windows.
>
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 1:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
> What do you mean the only useable one.  You mean the only one you
> liked because you hate ribbons.  That is different than the only
> useable one.  The later version is perfectly useable.  If you are
> willing to use ribbons, it is just as useable as the old version.
>
> Microsoft doesn't provide the installer for the old version any longer
> but the full installer for the old version is available from
> individuals who have it.  I have it and I expect other list members
> have it as well.
>
> Outlook Express in the version that has been modified to work in
> Windows 7 and higher works well for some people and not for others.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> Gene----- Original Message -----
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Brian's Mail list account
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:29 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
> I think it happens on Windows Live mail but there are a number of
> different
> versions knocking around. To me the only usable one was the version using
> old style menus, which microsoft now seems to have removed as a
> download and
> the version is always asking to update or to go over tto the latest
> app. I
> don't think the app in 10 has support for Usenet so I'm loathe to do that
> change, and in any case Outlook express with the files that emulate
> the old
> html etc displays of xp seems to owork well and I do not begrudge the
> 20 Eu
> it costs for three keys at all as the guy is very helpful.
> This will do me for years unless nobody does pop3 email any more.
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen"
> <quentin@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 10:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
>> Hi Gary,
>>
>> I must admit I haven't been using the mail app much.  I just had a look
>> and
>> found a couple of times it opened the message and I had to press
>> NVDA+down
>> arrow to read, but most time (even on the same messages), it read fine.
>>
>> Would love to get some more info if anyone else is experiencing this (or
>> not) and particularly if anyone can better pin down exactly when it does
>> and doesn't read automatically?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Quentin.
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 6:13 AM, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1.  I am using wlm as my mail client.  It
>>> used to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda
>>> would start reading the message.  Now, I have to hit the key for it to
>>> read
>>> the message.  Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be?
>>> Thanks
>>> for any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Quentin Christensen
>> Training Material Developer
>> Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
>> available:
>> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>>
>> Ph +61 7 3149 3306
>> www.nvaccess.org
>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>> Twitter: @NVAccess
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"




--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
 

Ron,
 
Why did you hijack my message?  What has ribbins to do with reading mail?  It is just rude to hijack a thread.
 
From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 9:27 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
 

In many programs, the items simply do not stay in the exact same position as they would in traditional pull down menus.  This is what I have not only experienced myself, but have been told by those more expert than me who teach the stuff. That's why the short cuts for predesignated functions are the only sure way to keep tactical control over what you're doing with ribbons in complex programs.

 


On 2/16/2017 1:31 PM, Gene wrote:
I've repeatedly sent instructions on using ribbons to the list.  And I don't say that ribbons are easy to use because that is a blanket generalization that may not apply to everyone.  I do believe that for the majority or most users, if ribbons are properly taught, they will not be difficult to use. 
 
I can send my discussion about how to use ribbons again, if desired.  The essence of working with ribbons is that you open the ribbon bar with alt.  You left or right arrow to the ribbon you want to use as you do when moving to a menu.  Then instead of up or down arrowing, you tab or shift tab.
 
There is more to learn than that but that is the essence of understanding the organization of ribbons in the most simple introductory framework. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 11:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
 
...and while I respect Gene for most issues, when ever he has said in
the past that ribbons are easy once you get used to them, and I ask
about just how to use them in Excel--he or any of the other 'get on the
ball blinky' advocates of ribbons have no clue as to how to answer me. 
I have some basic shortcuts I have been given by those forced to use the
newer Excel and Access version, but that's about it.  None who use
ribbons for complex suite such as Office do anything other than memorize
shortcuts to achieve basic functions.  Fortunately some of the older
ones such as Control + S for save and alt + F, A for save as still work,
but having real command of ribbons in complex programs still alludes
most blind people.



On 2/16/2017 11:17 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
> Well I'm not rising to your bait. I meerely present what is not an
> uncommon view amongst blind users of windows.
>
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 1:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
> What do you mean the only useable one.  You mean the only one you
> liked because you hate ribbons.  That is different than the only
> useable one.  The later version is perfectly useable.  If you are
> willing to use ribbons, it is just as useable as the old version.
>
> Microsoft doesn't provide the installer for the old version any longer
> but the full installer for the old version is available from
> individuals who have it.  I have it and I expect other list members
> have it as well.
>
> Outlook Express in the version that has been modified to work in
> Windows 7 and higher works well for some people and not for others.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> Gene----- Original Message -----
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Brian's Mail list account
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:29 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
> I think it happens on Windows Live mail but there are a number of
> different
> versions knocking around. To me the only usable one was the version using
> old style menus, which microsoft now seems to have removed as a
> download and
> the version is always asking to update or to go over tto the latest
> app. I
> don't think the app in 10 has support for Usenet so I'm loathe to do that
> change, and in any case Outlook express with the files that emulate
> the old
> html etc displays of xp seems to owork well and I do not begrudge the
> 20 Eu
> it costs for three keys at all as the guy is very helpful.
> This will do me for years unless nobody does pop3 email any more.
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen"
> <quentin@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 10:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
>> Hi Gary,
>>
>> I must admit I haven't been using the mail app much.  I just had a look
>> and
>> found a couple of times it opened the message and I had to press
>> NVDA+down
>> arrow to read, but most time (even on the same messages), it read fine.
>>
>> Would love to get some more info if anyone else is experiencing this (or
>> not) and particularly if anyone can better pin down exactly when it does
>> and doesn't read automatically?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Quentin.
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 6:13 AM, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1.  I am using wlm as my mail client.  It
>>> used to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda
>>> would start reading the message.  Now, I have to hit the key for it to
>>> read
>>> the message.  Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be?
>>> Thanks
>>> for any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Quentin Christensen
>> Training Material Developer
>> Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
>> available:
>> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>>
>> Ph +61 7 3149 3306
>> www.nvaccess.org
>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>> Twitter: @NVAccess
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"




--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
 

HiHi Brian,

I am using live mail 2012.

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 4:19 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Just to be sure. Is this live mail or Thunderbird? I have seen comments
about both on this thread
I now no longer use Live mail but often the behaviour of a client is also
affected by how its set up to read mail. It could well be that some subtle
changes in the way html is seen is affecting any html display in the client.
Really if you can go back and forth between versions and get a problem with
the latest RC release you have to raise an issue on github or at least
report it on the development list, or maybe get somebody else to do it.
Howwever if others cannot get the effect to show, it is entirely possible
its something weird going on just on your machine, and those are often the
most difficult problems to track down.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Metzler " <gmtravel@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi Gene,

After I read your message I wanted t go back and read it line by line. I
wasn�t able to do this. I had to use the alt tab keys to change the focus
so I could read your message. I don�t remember this happeneing with nvda
2016.4.Hi

From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:54 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

first, have you checked to make sure skim reading is still enabled? The
update may have incorrectly changed the setting.

If the command is still correct, you may wish to read my further comments
out of interest but they will be unnecessary to try to find a work around
for the problem.
I should change or perhaps correct something I said earlier. this may not
be an intended use of skim mode but it appears that it might do what you are
describing. That raises the possibility that the problem might be addressed
by the developers. It looks to me as though it is an unintended use of the
feature but one that might be expected to work if skim reading is enabled.
Here is the description from the manual, which I just looked up.
If on, certain navigation commands (such as quick navigation in browse mode
or moving by line or paragraph) do not stop Say All, rather Say All jumps to
the new position and continues reading.
Assuming you didn't change any settings either in your e-mail program or in
NVDA, say all should automatically start when you open a message. What you
are doing is using the move up by line command to try to move up a line when
you can't. NVDA interrupts whatever it was speaking and starts to read from
the current line.

While I understand why this worked in older versions, since it was very
likely an unintended use of the command, I have no idea if the developers
will try to restore the previous behavior if the command works correctly in
general. My suggestion of using the read to end command should work just as
welland, since there is no question that it does what is expected, it will
continue to work regardless of updates unless the command is incorrectly
implemented in a later version. And if it is, the developers would be
expected to address the problem.

I can't comment on using the laptop layout but if you set NVDA to use the
caps lock as a modifier, using caps lock down arrow is not, in any
meaningful sense, more difficult and I think you would quickly get used to
the new command.

It's better to use correct commands in general. Incorrect commands may not
work in all contexts and they may stop working, as in this context, with the
possibility of restoration uncertain.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 9:09 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Whether it used to work or not, that isn't documented or expected behavior.
I have no idea if this might be restored or why the behavior has changed.
Simply issue the usual read to end command when you open a message. I don't
use thunderbird and I can't comment on this behavior stopping. But I can
tell you that when I was learning something about thunderbird a number of
years ago, the way I got message bodies to read efficiently, that is without
the subject line being read, was to use the read to end command in whatever
screen-reader I was working with. If the read to end command is
inconvenient in whatever keyboard layout you are using, you may be able to
make it far more convenient by doing something like having the caps lock key
be an NVDA key.

You may have to experiment to see how long to wait after opening a message
before issuing the command.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Gary Metzler
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 8:49 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Hi Brian,

When I used nvda 2016.4 when I opened a message I hit the up arrow key to
stop the reading of the subject line. In rc1 this no longer works. Thanks
for any help.

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:13 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Well I don't think that should happen at all. What happens if you use the
older version. I'd also advise against using a portable version on windows
10, it seldom works verywell.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Metzler " <gmtravel@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 7:13 PM
Subject: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi All,

I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1. I am using wlm as my mail client. It used
to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda would
start reading the message. Now, I have to hit the key for it to read the
message. Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be? Thanks for
any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox


Gene
 

I'll add, to try to address your problem of moving to the same starting place with reasonable efficiency, that if you don't start in the same place when you move to a ribbon, using a command such as alt h, that the easiest and fastest way I know to get to where you expect to be is to use control right or left arrow.  Since I don't know where you tend to end up, I don't know which of these would move you faster to where you want to be.  But if you do alt h and move with either control right or control left arrow, you will move from one group or category, as I think may be clearer to call them, on the ribbon to another. 
 
for example, one group is clipboard and the items in that group are things you can do related to the clipboard.  If you want to jump right to the next category, control right arrow will move you immediately to the next one.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

When you just press tab, you end up in the last ribbon you were working with.  Which is why, when I instruct people, I tell them to use the proper letter so we always start in the same place.  If you say that alt h places you in a different part of the home tab, I don't know why.  There may be some sort of design problem with ribbons in certain versions of Microsoft Office.  But those are not inherent faults in ribbons.  When I use ribbons in Wordpad or Windows Live Mail or Microsoft Word Starter, I always start in exactly the same place when I use alt h.  What I'm saying is that it sounds as though you are blaming ribbons for something that is actually bad design in this or that program.  And also, I don't know if back stage view has anything to do with this,  Is back stage view on or off?
 
gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 12:37 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

OK, here goes with examples.


I am told to press alt + H for the home tab.  When I land on it, sometimes I land on a different tab than the clipboard tab.  It can be anywhere other than that or back on clipboard tab.


When I press the alt key by itself, sometimes I wind up on the home tab and sometimes on the file tab.

That's just for starters.  It gets weirder when I get into the tabs in Excel. Sometimes items I want to choose in the insert tab aren't there or don't operate properly.

The shortcuts provided by people from other lists usually work, but even those sometimes delay and lock up speech.


I am using Windows Explorer and Excel for examples and NVDA and JAWS for screen readers.




On 2/17/2017 10:05 AM, Gene wrote:
At this point, I am extremely skeptical.  It is irrational behavior and I strongly suspect there is some other explanation for what people are reporting. 
 
When I go through ribbons, combinations of keys are announced to get to the item or take an action such as short cuts in a menu.  They always work just as they always work in menus.  If something sounds completely illogical, considerable skepticism is in order. 
 
I've used ribbons in Word 10 starter, Windows Live Mail and wordpad.  I have never observed such behavior and I've never seen this allegation regarding inconsistency on the three lists I follow dealing with Windows one way or another. 
 
If someone can furnish definite examples and if those examples are replicable by others, I'll consider such evidence.  otherwise, the sheer irrationality of the proposal causes me to be extremely skeptical. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 8:27 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

In many programs, the items simply do not stay in the exact same position as they would in traditional pull down menus.  This is what I have not only experienced myself, but have been told by those more expert than me who teach the stuff. That's why the short cuts for predesignated functions are the only sure way to keep tactical control over what you're doing with ribbons in complex programs.



On 2/16/2017 1:31 PM, Gene wrote:
I've repeatedly sent instructions on using ribbons to the list.  And I don't say that ribbons are easy to use because that is a blanket generalization that may not apply to everyone.  I do believe that for the majority or most users, if ribbons are properly taught, they will not be difficult to use. 
 
I can send my discussion about how to use ribbons again, if desired.  The essence of working with ribbons is that you open the ribbon bar with alt.  You left or right arrow to the ribbon you want to use as you do when moving to a menu.  Then instead of up or down arrowing, you tab or shift tab.
 
There is more to learn than that but that is the essence of understanding the organization of ribbons in the most simple introductory framework. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

...and while I respect Gene for most issues, when ever he has said in
the past that ribbons are easy once you get used to them, and I ask
about just how to use them in Excel--he or any of the other 'get on the
ball blinky' advocates of ribbons have no clue as to how to answer me. 
I have some basic shortcuts I have been given by those forced to use the
newer Excel and Access version, but that's about it.  None who use
ribbons for complex suite such as Office do anything other than memorize
shortcuts to achieve basic functions.  Fortunately some of the older
ones such as Control + S for save and alt + F, A for save as still work,
but having real command of ribbons in complex programs still alludes
most blind people.



On 2/16/2017 11:17 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
> Well I'm not rising to your bait. I meerely present what is not an
> uncommon view amongst blind users of windows.
>
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 1:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
> What do you mean the only useable one.  You mean the only one you
> liked because you hate ribbons.  That is different than the only
> useable one.  The later version is perfectly useable.  If you are
> willing to use ribbons, it is just as useable as the old version.
>
> Microsoft doesn't provide the installer for the old version any longer
> but the full installer for the old version is available from
> individuals who have it.  I have it and I expect other list members
> have it as well.
>
> Outlook Express in the version that has been modified to work in
> Windows 7 and higher works well for some people and not for others.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> Gene----- Original Message -----
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Brian's Mail list account
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:29 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
> I think it happens on Windows Live mail but there are a number of
> different
> versions knocking around. To me the only usable one was the version using
> old style menus, which microsoft now seems to have removed as a
> download and
> the version is always asking to update or to go over tto the latest
> app. I
> don't think the app in 10 has support for Usenet so I'm loathe to do that
> change, and in any case Outlook express with the files that emulate
> the old
> html etc displays of xp seems to owork well and I do not begrudge the
> 20 Eu
> it costs for three keys at all as the guy is very helpful.
> This will do me for years unless nobody does pop3 email any more.
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen"
> <quentin@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 10:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
>> Hi Gary,
>>
>> I must admit I haven't been using the mail app much.  I just had a look
>> and
>> found a couple of times it opened the message and I had to press
>> NVDA+down
>> arrow to read, but most time (even on the same messages), it read fine.
>>
>> Would love to get some more info if anyone else is experiencing this (or
>> not) and particularly if anyone can better pin down exactly when it does
>> and doesn't read automatically?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Quentin.
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 6:13 AM, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1.  I am using wlm as my mail client.  It
>>> used to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda
>>> would start reading the message.  Now, I have to hit the key for it to
>>> read
>>> the message.  Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be?
>>> Thanks
>>> for any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Quentin Christensen
>> Training Material Developer
>> Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
>> available:
>> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>>
>> Ph +61 7 3149 3306
>> www.nvaccess.org
>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>> Twitter: @NVAccess
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"




--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"