Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a reason why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...


 

Dear NVDA community,

 

Disclaimer: for new community members, I’m normally not like this, but I do sometimes right posts I believe folks should hear, as it impacts community experience and what not. So my sincere apologies for letting you witness my explosive side. Please bear with me for a second, as it is important that I talk about the following regarding respecting engineers and announce a directive for Windows 10 users:

 

In the blindness community (at least for members of various mailing lists that I’m a part of or lead), I became synonymous with someone who is willing to show patience until the end, especially when resolving tech support problems. But there is a hidden side to that: for certain things, I become a volcano, and those who’ve witnessed my lava flow knows what I mean. Unfortunately, I believe it is time that I explode yet again (my apologies to our dear leaders for doing something like this):

 

Answering questions: for many situations, when resolving issues, when I and other engineers ask you questions in hopes of getting to the meat of the burger. Sometimes we may ask you to tell us steps to reproduce the given problem, what a screen reader says, and what not. When developers ask you questions, please do your best to answer them if possible.

 

For Windows 10 users: there is an important reason why I wrote Windows 10 App Essentials: to prevent issues like the one Rosemarie and others have experienced with Mail app. Hence the following directive:

 

Until now, it was optional for you to use Windows 10 app Essentials add-on if you are using Windows 10. I’ll make this an important requirement starting from fall 2017. That is, starting from September 2017, when you report issues like the one Rosemarie has experienced, I’ll no longer ask you to install latest WinTenApps add-on: I’ll assume that you have. For Windows Insiders, this is a critical (and mandatory) requirement.

 

I’m not announcing this directive just because I feel like doing it, nor to increase popularity of my brainchild: Windows 10 App Essentials add-on exists for important reasons:

 

  • Workarounds for issues encountered by NVDA users when using Windows 10, including various UI Automation issues.
  • Respond to changes in accessibility of various apps such as removing workarounds put in place in past versions.
  • Respond to app executable name changes (Microsoft has changed names of at least three universal app executables).
  • Provide essential features for Windows 10 users, including suggestions announcement, emoji panel support (Fall Creators Update), Edge notification announcements and others.
  • To prove to Microsoft and third-party universal app developers that accessibility should be a core design criteria for apps, including letting screen reader users use apps to their full potential.

 

Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph


Mallard <mallard@...>
 

Joseph,


This doesn't look like an "explosion" to me - rather, it sounds like a very sensible explation, for which I warmly thank you.


I do have the add-on installed, and constantly update it, by the way.


Ciao, thanks for your continued efforts and - yes - for your extreme patience.

Ciao,

Ollie

Il 19/06/2017 05:22, Joseph Lee ha scritto:

Dear NVDA community,

Disclaimer: for new community members, I’m normally not like this, but I do sometimes right posts I believe folks should hear, as it impacts community experience and what not. So my sincere apologies for letting you witness my explosive side. Please bear with me for a second, as it is important that I talk about the following regarding respecting engineers and announce a directive for Windows 10 users:

In the blindness community (at least for members of various mailing lists that I’m a part of or lead), I became synonymous with someone who is willing to show patience until the end, especially when resolving tech support problems. But there is a hidden side to that: for certain things, I become a volcano, and those who’ve witnessed my lava flow knows what I mean. Unfortunately, I believe it is time that I explode yet again (my apologies to our dear leaders for doing something like this):

Answering questions: for many situations, when resolving issues, when I and other engineers ask you questions in hopes of getting to the meat of the burger. Sometimes we may ask you to tell us steps to reproduce the given problem, what a screen reader says, and what not. When developers ask you questions, please do your best to answer them if possible.

For Windows 10 users: there is an important reason why I wrote Windows 10 App Essentials: to prevent issues like the one Rosemarie and others have experienced with Mail app. Hence the following directive:

Until now, it was optional for you to use Windows 10 app Essentials add-on if you are using Windows 10. I’ll make this an important requirement starting from fall 2017. That is, starting from September 2017, when you report issues like the one Rosemarie has experienced, I’ll no longer ask you to install latest WinTenApps add-on: I’ll assume that you have. For Windows Insiders, this is a critical (and mandatory) requirement.

I’m not announcing this directive just because I feel like doing it, nor to increase popularity of my brainchild: Windows 10 App Essentials add-on exists for important reasons:

* Workarounds for issues encountered by NVDA users when using
Windows 10, including various UI Automation issues.
* Respond to changes in accessibility of various apps such as
removing workarounds put in place in past versions.
* Respond to app executable name changes (Microsoft has changed
names of at least three universal app executables).
* Provide essential features for Windows 10 users, including
suggestions announcement, emoji panel support (Fall Creators
Update), Edge notification announcements and others.
* To prove to Microsoft and third-party universal app developers
that accessibility should be a core design criteria for apps,
including letting screen reader users use apps to their full
potential.

Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph


Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Joseph, though I do understand where you are coming from and the frustration you feel, I do honestly have sympathy with the end user who just wants a reliable system.
Microsoft have to shoulder a good deal of the blame for what their changes cause. I'm not suggesting in any way that they are deliberately screwing things up here, just that they really do not test stuff enough. For people who do not use special builds of windows, ie insiders, or nvda. I do not think it unreasonable to expect continuity and after a while people do get fed up with having the rug pulled from under them on a regular basis by software makers, be that Microsoft or anyone else.
So yes, in a development environment you would be justified in being annoyed, but when people are trying to run their lives day to day and keep encountering stones in the road and potholes not of their own making it is, I think understandable if people get fed up and take the easy option.
I have I know said much of this before, but like most of us, I have had to try to help people in real life away from this place and been almost embarrassed when you eventually track down the issue to the actual changes in the software and nothing to do with the end user, except that he or she happens to be blind.

I'll shut up now and be quiet, bite my lip etc for a while. I nearly bought a new laptop last week but after reading about all the win 10 issues decided not to bother.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 4:22 AM
Subject: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a reason why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...


Dear NVDA community,



Disclaimer: for new community members, I'm normally not like this, but I do
sometimes right posts I believe folks should hear, as it impacts community
experience and what not. So my sincere apologies for letting you witness my
explosive side. Please bear with me for a second, as it is important that I
talk about the following regarding respecting engineers and announce a
directive for Windows 10 users:



In the blindness community (at least for members of various mailing lists
that I'm a part of or lead), I became synonymous with someone who is willing
to show patience until the end, especially when resolving tech support
problems. But there is a hidden side to that: for certain things, I become a
volcano, and those who've witnessed my lava flow knows what I mean.
Unfortunately, I believe it is time that I explode yet again (my apologies
to our dear leaders for doing something like this):



Answering questions: for many situations, when resolving issues, when I and
other engineers ask you questions in hopes of getting to the meat of the
burger. Sometimes we may ask you to tell us steps to reproduce the given
problem, what a screen reader says, and what not. When developers ask you
questions, please do your best to answer them if possible.



For Windows 10 users: there is an important reason why I wrote Windows 10
App Essentials: to prevent issues like the one Rosemarie and others have
experienced with Mail app. Hence the following directive:



Until now, it was optional for you to use Windows 10 app Essentials add-on
if you are using Windows 10. I'll make this an important requirement
starting from fall 2017. That is, starting from September 2017, when you
report issues like the one Rosemarie has experienced, I'll no longer ask you
to install latest WinTenApps add-on: I'll assume that you have. For Windows
Insiders, this is a critical (and mandatory) requirement.



I'm not announcing this directive just because I feel like doing it, nor to
increase popularity of my brainchild: Windows 10 App Essentials add-on
exists for important reasons:



* Workarounds for issues encountered by NVDA users when using Windows
10, including various UI Automation issues.
* Respond to changes in accessibility of various apps such as removing
workarounds put in place in past versions.
* Respond to app executable name changes (Microsoft has changed names
of at least three universal app executables).
* Provide essential features for Windows 10 users, including
suggestions announcement, emoji panel support (Fall Creators Update), Edge
notification announcements and others.
* To prove to Microsoft and third-party universal app developers that
accessibility should be a core design criteria for apps, including letting
screen reader users use apps to their full potential.



Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph


Austin Pinto <austinpinto.xaviers@...>
 

oh! when you said explode i thought it would sound much worced but.
its a nice directive

On 6/19/17, Brian's Mail list account <bglists@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
Joseph, though I do understand where you are coming from and the frustration

you feel, I do honestly have sympathy with the end user who just wants a
reliable system.
Microsoft have to shoulder a good deal of the blame for what their changes
cause. I'm not suggesting in any way that they are deliberately screwing
things up here, just that they really do not test stuff enough. For people

who do not use special builds of windows, ie insiders, or nvda. I do not
think it unreasonable to expect continuity and after a while people do get
fed up with having the rug pulled from under them on a regular basis by
software makers, be that Microsoft or anyone else.
So yes, in a development environment you would be justified in being
annoyed, but when people are trying to run their lives day to day and keep
encountering stones in the road and potholes not of their own making it is,

I think understandable if people get fed up and take the easy option.
I have I know said much of this before, but like most of us, I have had to

try to help people in real life away from this place and been almost
embarrassed when you eventually track down the issue to the actual changes
in the software and nothing to do with the end user, except that he or she
happens to be blind.

I'll shut up now and be quiet, bite my lip etc for a while. I nearly bought

a new laptop last week but after reading about all the win 10 issues decided

not to bother.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 4:22 AM
Subject: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a reason

why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...


Dear NVDA community,



Disclaimer: for new community members, I'm normally not like this, but I
do
sometimes right posts I believe folks should hear, as it impacts
community
experience and what not. So my sincere apologies for letting you witness
my
explosive side. Please bear with me for a second, as it is important that

I
talk about the following regarding respecting engineers and announce a
directive for Windows 10 users:



In the blindness community (at least for members of various mailing lists
that I'm a part of or lead), I became synonymous with someone who is
willing
to show patience until the end, especially when resolving tech support
problems. But there is a hidden side to that: for certain things, I become

a
volcano, and those who've witnessed my lava flow knows what I mean.
Unfortunately, I believe it is time that I explode yet again (my
apologies
to our dear leaders for doing something like this):



Answering questions: for many situations, when resolving issues, when I
and
other engineers ask you questions in hopes of getting to the meat of the
burger. Sometimes we may ask you to tell us steps to reproduce the given
problem, what a screen reader says, and what not. When developers ask you
questions, please do your best to answer them if possible.



For Windows 10 users: there is an important reason why I wrote Windows 10
App Essentials: to prevent issues like the one Rosemarie and others have
experienced with Mail app. Hence the following directive:



Until now, it was optional for you to use Windows 10 app Essentials
add-on
if you are using Windows 10. I'll make this an important requirement
starting from fall 2017. That is, starting from September 2017, when you
report issues like the one Rosemarie has experienced, I'll no longer ask
you
to install latest WinTenApps add-on: I'll assume that you have. For
Windows
Insiders, this is a critical (and mandatory) requirement.



I'm not announcing this directive just because I feel like doing it, nor
to
increase popularity of my brainchild: Windows 10 App Essentials add-on
exists for important reasons:



* Workarounds for issues encountered by NVDA users when using Windows
10, including various UI Automation issues.
* Respond to changes in accessibility of various apps such as removing
workarounds put in place in past versions.
* Respond to app executable name changes (Microsoft has changed names
of at least three universal app executables).
* Provide essential features for Windows 10 users, including
suggestions announcement, emoji panel support (Fall Creators Update),
Edge
notification announcements and others.
* To prove to Microsoft and third-party universal app developers that
accessibility should be a core design criteria for apps, including
letting
screen reader users use apps to their full potential.



Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph




--
search for me on facebook, google+, orkut..
austinpinto.xaviers@gmail.com
follow me on twitter.
austinmpinto
contact me on skype.
austin.pinto3


Gene
 

Even calling this an explosion shows the harm that taking any virtue to an extreme causes.  Patience is often a virtue.  If it is taken to an extreme, it's a vice just as anything is when taken to an extreme. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 3:01 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a reason why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...

oh! when you said explode i thought it would sound much worced but.
its a nice directive

On 6/19/17, Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...> wrote:
> Joseph, though I do understand where you are coming from and the frustration
>
> you feel, I do honestly have sympathy with the end user who just wants a
> reliable system.
> Microsoft have to shoulder a good deal of the blame for what their changes
> cause. I'm not suggesting in any way that they are deliberately  screwing
> things up here, just that they  really do not test stuff enough. For people
>
> who do not use special builds of windows, ie insiders, or nvda. I do not
> think it unreasonable to expect continuity and after a while people do get
> fed up with having the rug pulled from under them on a regular basis by
> software makers, be that Microsoft or anyone else.
>  So yes, in a development environment you would be justified in being
> annoyed, but when people are trying to run their lives day to day and keep
> encountering stones in the road and potholes not of their own making  it is,
>
> I think understandable if people get fed up and take the easy option.
>  I have I know said much of this before, but like most of us, I have had to
>
> try to help people in real life away from this place and been almost
> embarrassed when you eventually track down the issue to the actual changes
> in the software and nothing to do with the end user, except that he or she
> happens to be blind.
>
> I'll shut up now and  be quiet, bite my lip etc for a while. I nearly bought
>
> a new laptop last week but after reading about all the win 10 issues decided
>
> not to bother.
>  Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 4:22 AM
> Subject: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a reason
>
> why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...
>
>
>> Dear NVDA community,
>>
>>
>>
>> Disclaimer: for new community members, I'm normally not like this, but I
>> do
>> sometimes right posts I believe folks should hear, as it impacts
>> community
>> experience and what not. So my sincere apologies for letting you witness
>> my
>> explosive side. Please bear with me for a second, as it is important that
>>
>> I
>> talk about the following regarding respecting engineers and announce a
>> directive for Windows 10 users:
>>
>>
>>
>> In the blindness community (at least for members of various mailing lists
>> that I'm a part of or lead), I became synonymous with someone who is
>> willing
>> to show patience until the end, especially when resolving tech support
>> problems. But there is a hidden side to that: for certain things, I become
>>
>> a
>> volcano, and those who've witnessed my lava flow knows what I mean.
>> Unfortunately, I believe it is time that I explode yet again (my
>> apologies
>> to our dear leaders for doing something like this):
>>
>>
>>
>> Answering questions: for many situations, when resolving issues, when I
>> and
>> other engineers ask you questions in hopes of getting to the meat of the
>> burger. Sometimes we may ask you to tell us steps to reproduce the given
>> problem, what a screen reader says, and what not. When developers ask you
>> questions, please do your best to answer them if possible.
>>
>>
>>
>> For Windows 10 users: there is an important reason why I wrote Windows 10
>> App Essentials: to prevent issues like the one Rosemarie and others have
>> experienced with Mail app. Hence the following directive:
>>
>>
>>
>> Until now, it was optional for you to use Windows 10 app Essentials
>> add-on
>> if you are using Windows 10. I'll make this an important requirement
>> starting from fall 2017. That is, starting from September 2017, when you
>> report issues like the one Rosemarie has experienced, I'll no longer ask
>> you
>> to install latest WinTenApps add-on: I'll assume that you have. For
>> Windows
>> Insiders, this is a critical (and mandatory) requirement.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm not announcing this directive just because I feel like doing it, nor
>> to
>> increase popularity of my brainchild: Windows 10 App Essentials add-on
>> exists for important reasons:
>>
>>
>>
>> * Workarounds for issues encountered by NVDA users when using Windows
>> 10, including various UI Automation issues.
>> * Respond to changes in accessibility of various apps such as removing
>> workarounds put in place in past versions.
>> * Respond to app executable name changes (Microsoft has changed names
>> of at least three universal app executables).
>> * Provide essential features for Windows 10 users, including
>> suggestions announcement, emoji panel support (Fall Creators Update),
>> Edge
>> notification announcements and others.
>> * To prove to Microsoft and third-party universal app developers that
>> accessibility should be a core design criteria for apps, including
>> letting
>> screen reader users use apps to their full potential.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Joseph
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>


--
search for me on facebook, google+, orkut..
austinpinto.xaviers@...
follow me on twitter.
austinmpinto
contact me on skype.
austin.pinto3



Ron Canazzi
 

I don't want to make anyone mad, but here goes.


If this Windows ten ap is so important to have, why isn't it somehow included with the core of NVDA rather than as a separate item that must be downloaded by the user?



On 6/18/2017 11:22 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Dear NVDA community,

 

Disclaimer: for new community members, I’m normally not like this, but I do sometimes right posts I believe folks should hear, as it impacts community experience and what not. So my sincere apologies for letting you witness my explosive side. Please bear with me for a second, as it is important that I talk about the following regarding respecting engineers and announce a directive for Windows 10 users:

 

In the blindness community (at least for members of various mailing lists that I’m a part of or lead), I became synonymous with someone who is willing to show patience until the end, especially when resolving tech support problems. But there is a hidden side to that: for certain things, I become a volcano, and those who’ve witnessed my lava flow knows what I mean. Unfortunately, I believe it is time that I explode yet again (my apologies to our dear leaders for doing something like this):

 

Answering questions: for many situations, when resolving issues, when I and other engineers ask you questions in hopes of getting to the meat of the burger. Sometimes we may ask you to tell us steps to reproduce the given problem, what a screen reader says, and what not. When developers ask you questions, please do your best to answer them if possible.

 

For Windows 10 users: there is an important reason why I wrote Windows 10 App Essentials: to prevent issues like the one Rosemarie and others have experienced with Mail app. Hence the following directive:

 

Until now, it was optional for you to use Windows 10 app Essentials add-on if you are using Windows 10. I’ll make this an important requirement starting from fall 2017. That is, starting from September 2017, when you report issues like the one Rosemarie has experienced, I’ll no longer ask you to install latest WinTenApps add-on: I’ll assume that you have. For Windows Insiders, this is a critical (and mandatory) requirement.

 

I’m not announcing this directive just because I feel like doing it, nor to increase popularity of my brainchild: Windows 10 App Essentials add-on exists for important reasons:

 

  • Workarounds for issues encountered by NVDA users when using Windows 10, including various UI Automation issues.
  • Respond to changes in accessibility of various apps such as removing workarounds put in place in past versions.
  • Respond to app executable name changes (Microsoft has changed names of at least three universal app executables).
  • Provide essential features for Windows 10 users, including suggestions announcement, emoji panel support (Fall Creators Update), Edge notification announcements and others.
  • To prove to Microsoft and third-party universal app developers that accessibility should be a core design criteria for apps, including letting screen reader users use apps to their full potential.

 

Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Rui Fontes
 

As a NVDA translator and interested in code development, in spite of lack of knowledge to that, here are my thinkings:
1 - Most code of this addon normally is incorporated in NVDA, when aplicable;
2 - It is easier and faster to upgrade an addon than a NVDA version, only each 3 month...
3 - Some code of the addon is an answer to some changes in the Insider program, and some chances there are not reflected in stable version of Windows...
4 - and so on.... LOL!

Rui

-----Mensagem Original-----
De: Ron Canazzi
Data: 19 de junho de 2017 12:46
Para: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Assunto: Re: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a reason why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...



I don't want to make anyone mad, but here goes.




If this Windows ten ap is so important to have, why isn't it somehow included with the core of NVDA rather than as a separate item that must be downloaded by the user?

On 6/18/2017 11:22 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:


Dear NVDA community,



Disclaimer: for new community members, I’m normally not like this, but I do sometimes right posts I believe folks should hear, as it impacts community experience and what not. So my sincere apologies for letting you witness my explosive side. Please bear with me for a second, as it is important that I talk about the following regarding respecting engineers and announce a directive for Windows 10 users:



In the blindness community (at least for members of various mailing lists that I’m a part of or lead), I became synonymous with someone who is willing to show patience until the end, especially when resolving tech support problems. But there is a hidden side to that: for certain things, I become a volcano, and those who’ve witnessed my lava flow knows what I mean. Unfortunately, I believe it is time that I explode yet again (my apologies to our dear leaders for doing something like this):



Answering questions: for many situations, when resolving issues, when I and other engineers ask you questions in hopes of getting to the meat of the burger. Sometimes we may ask you to tell us steps to reproduce the given problem, what a screen reader says, and what not. When developers ask you questions, please do your best to answer them if possible.



For Windows 10 users: there is an important reason why I wrote Windows 10 App Essentials: to prevent issues like the one Rosemarie and others have experienced with Mail app. Hence the following directive:



Until now, it was optional for you to use Windows 10 app Essentials add-on if you are using Windows 10. I’ll make this an important requirement starting from fall 2017. That is, starting from September 2017, when you report issues like the one Rosemarie has experienced, I’ll no longer ask you to install latest WinTenApps add-on: I’ll assume that you have. For Windows Insiders, this is a critical (and mandatory) requirement.



I’m not announcing this directive just because I feel like doing it, nor to increase popularity of my brainchild: Windows 10 App Essentials add-on exists for important reasons:



Workarounds for issues encountered by NVDA users when using Windows 10, including various UI Automation issues.
Respond to changes in accessibility of various apps such as removing workarounds put in place in past versions.
Respond to app executable name changes (Microsoft has changed names of at least three universal app executables).
Provide essential features for Windows 10 users, including suggestions announcement, emoji panel support (Fall Creators Update), Edge notification announcements and others.
To prove to Microsoft and third-party universal app developers that accessibility should be a core design criteria for apps, including letting screen reader users use apps to their full potential.



Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph


-- They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes. They ask: "How Happy are You?" I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Pascal Lambert
 

I echo the same sentiment as Brian. The Win10 anniversary already caused me to buy another laptop I did not need as I was leaving on an overseas trip and my laptop was totally messed up after the update. I am honestly about to switch to a Mac as the Win environment is not reliable.
Blessings
Pascal

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Austin Pinto
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 4:02 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a reason why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...

oh! when you said explode i thought it would sound much worced but.
its a nice directive

On 6/19/17, Brian's Mail list account <bglists@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
Joseph, though I do understand where you are coming from and the
frustration

you feel, I do honestly have sympathy with the end user who just wants
a reliable system.
Microsoft have to shoulder a good deal of the blame for what their
changes cause. I'm not suggesting in any way that they are
deliberately screwing things up here, just that they really do not
test stuff enough. For people

who do not use special builds of windows, ie insiders, or nvda. I do
not think it unreasonable to expect continuity and after a while
people do get fed up with having the rug pulled from under them on a
regular basis by software makers, be that Microsoft or anyone else.
So yes, in a development environment you would be justified in being
annoyed, but when people are trying to run their lives day to day and
keep encountering stones in the road and potholes not of their own
making it is,

I think understandable if people get fed up and take the easy option.
I have I know said much of this before, but like most of us, I have
had to

try to help people in real life away from this place and been almost
embarrassed when you eventually track down the issue to the actual
changes in the software and nothing to do with the end user, except
that he or she happens to be blind.

I'll shut up now and be quiet, bite my lip etc for a while. I nearly
bought

a new laptop last week but after reading about all the win 10 issues
decided

not to bother.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 4:22 AM
Subject: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a
reason

why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...


Dear NVDA community,



Disclaimer: for new community members, I'm normally not like this,
but I do sometimes right posts I believe folks should hear, as it
impacts community experience and what not. So my sincere apologies
for letting you witness my explosive side. Please bear with me for a
second, as it is important that

I
talk about the following regarding respecting engineers and announce
a directive for Windows 10 users:



In the blindness community (at least for members of various mailing
lists that I'm a part of or lead), I became synonymous with someone
who is willing to show patience until the end, especially when
resolving tech support problems. But there is a hidden side to that:
for certain things, I become

a
volcano, and those who've witnessed my lava flow knows what I mean.
Unfortunately, I believe it is time that I explode yet again (my
apologies to our dear leaders for doing something like this):



Answering questions: for many situations, when resolving issues, when
I and other engineers ask you questions in hopes of getting to the
meat of the burger. Sometimes we may ask you to tell us steps to
reproduce the given problem, what a screen reader says, and what not.
When developers ask you questions, please do your best to answer them
if possible.



For Windows 10 users: there is an important reason why I wrote
Windows 10 App Essentials: to prevent issues like the one Rosemarie
and others have experienced with Mail app. Hence the following directive:



Until now, it was optional for you to use Windows 10 app Essentials
add-on if you are using Windows 10. I'll make this an important
requirement starting from fall 2017. That is, starting from September
2017, when you report issues like the one Rosemarie has experienced,
I'll no longer ask you to install latest WinTenApps add-on: I'll
assume that you have. For Windows Insiders, this is a critical (and
mandatory) requirement.



I'm not announcing this directive just because I feel like doing it,
nor to increase popularity of my brainchild: Windows 10 App
Essentials add-on exists for important reasons:



* Workarounds for issues encountered by NVDA users when using Windows
10, including various UI Automation issues.
* Respond to changes in accessibility of various apps such as
removing workarounds put in place in past versions.
* Respond to app executable name changes (Microsoft has changed names
of at least three universal app executables).
* Provide essential features for Windows 10 users, including
suggestions announcement, emoji panel support (Fall Creators Update),
Edge notification announcements and others.
* To prove to Microsoft and third-party universal app developers that
accessibility should be a core design criteria for apps, including
letting screen reader users use apps to their full potential.



Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph





--
search for me on facebook, google+, orkut..
austinpinto.xaviers@gmail.com
follow me on twitter.
austinmpinto
contact me on skype.
austin.pinto3


Robin Frost
 

Hi,
the only thing I'd gingerly add is since this directive is strongly urging the use of this add in it might have been helpful to include the url at which it is found. while I'm sure it's been mentioned before and can perhaps be found referenced on the group's official page I just thought it'd be helpful to the maximum number of users were it to have been included. Just a thought for future directives of this type. I'll close with gratitude for all who participate to the betterment of all of us.
Robin

-----Original Message-----
From: Austin Pinto
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 4:01 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a reason why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...

oh! when you said explode i thought it would sound much worced but.
its a nice directive

On 6/19/17, Brian's Mail list account <bglists@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
Joseph, though I do understand where you are coming from and the frustration

you feel, I do honestly have sympathy with the end user who just wants a
reliable system.
Microsoft have to shoulder a good deal of the blame for what their changes
cause. I'm not suggesting in any way that they are deliberately screwing
things up here, just that they really do not test stuff enough. For people

who do not use special builds of windows, ie insiders, or nvda. I do not
think it unreasonable to expect continuity and after a while people do get
fed up with having the rug pulled from under them on a regular basis by
software makers, be that Microsoft or anyone else.
So yes, in a development environment you would be justified in being
annoyed, but when people are trying to run their lives day to day and keep
encountering stones in the road and potholes not of their own making it is,

I think understandable if people get fed up and take the easy option.
I have I know said much of this before, but like most of us, I have had to

try to help people in real life away from this place and been almost
embarrassed when you eventually track down the issue to the actual changes
in the software and nothing to do with the end user, except that he or she
happens to be blind.

I'll shut up now and be quiet, bite my lip etc for a while. I nearly bought

a new laptop last week but after reading about all the win 10 issues decided

not to bother.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 4:22 AM
Subject: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a reason

why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...


Dear NVDA community,



Disclaimer: for new community members, I'm normally not like this, but I
do
sometimes right posts I believe folks should hear, as it impacts
community
experience and what not. So my sincere apologies for letting you witness
my
explosive side. Please bear with me for a second, as it is important that

I
talk about the following regarding respecting engineers and announce a
directive for Windows 10 users:



In the blindness community (at least for members of various mailing lists
that I'm a part of or lead), I became synonymous with someone who is
willing
to show patience until the end, especially when resolving tech support
problems. But there is a hidden side to that: for certain things, I become

a
volcano, and those who've witnessed my lava flow knows what I mean.
Unfortunately, I believe it is time that I explode yet again (my
apologies
to our dear leaders for doing something like this):



Answering questions: for many situations, when resolving issues, when I
and
other engineers ask you questions in hopes of getting to the meat of the
burger. Sometimes we may ask you to tell us steps to reproduce the given
problem, what a screen reader says, and what not. When developers ask you
questions, please do your best to answer them if possible.



For Windows 10 users: there is an important reason why I wrote Windows 10
App Essentials: to prevent issues like the one Rosemarie and others have
experienced with Mail app. Hence the following directive:



Until now, it was optional for you to use Windows 10 app Essentials
add-on
if you are using Windows 10. I'll make this an important requirement
starting from fall 2017. That is, starting from September 2017, when you
report issues like the one Rosemarie has experienced, I'll no longer ask
you
to install latest WinTenApps add-on: I'll assume that you have. For
Windows
Insiders, this is a critical (and mandatory) requirement.



I'm not announcing this directive just because I feel like doing it, nor
to
increase popularity of my brainchild: Windows 10 App Essentials add-on
exists for important reasons:



* Workarounds for issues encountered by NVDA users when using Windows
10, including various UI Automation issues.
* Respond to changes in accessibility of various apps such as removing
workarounds put in place in past versions.
* Respond to app executable name changes (Microsoft has changed names
of at least three universal app executables).
* Provide essential features for Windows 10 users, including
suggestions announcement, emoji panel support (Fall Creators Update),
Edge
notification announcements and others.
* To prove to Microsoft and third-party universal app developers that
accessibility should be a core design criteria for apps, including
letting
screen reader users use apps to their full potential.



Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph





--
search for me on facebook, google+, orkut..
austinpinto.xaviers@gmail.com
follow me on twitter.
austinmpinto
contact me on skype.
austin.pinto3


 

Hi,
I always forget one or two things...
Add-on URL: https://addons.nvda-project.org/addons/wintenApps.en.html
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Robin Frost
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 6:56 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a reason why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...

Hi,
the only thing I'd gingerly add is since this directive is strongly urging the use of this add in it might have been helpful to include the url at which it is found. while I'm sure it's been mentioned before and can perhaps be found referenced on the group's official page I just thought it'd be helpful to the maximum number of users were it to have been included. Just a thought for future directives of this type. I'll close with gratitude for all who participate to the betterment of all of us.
Robin


-----Original Message-----
From: Austin Pinto
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 4:01 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a reason why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...

oh! when you said explode i thought it would sound much worced but.
its a nice directive

On 6/19/17, Brian's Mail list account <bglists@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
Joseph, though I do understand where you are coming from and the
frustration

you feel, I do honestly have sympathy with the end user who just wants
a reliable system.
Microsoft have to shoulder a good deal of the blame for what their
changes cause. I'm not suggesting in any way that they are
deliberately screwing things up here, just that they really do not
test stuff enough. For people

who do not use special builds of windows, ie insiders, or nvda. I do
not think it unreasonable to expect continuity and after a while
people do get fed up with having the rug pulled from under them on a
regular basis by software makers, be that Microsoft or anyone else.
So yes, in a development environment you would be justified in being
annoyed, but when people are trying to run their lives day to day and
keep encountering stones in the road and potholes not of their own
making it is,

I think understandable if people get fed up and take the easy option.
I have I know said much of this before, but like most of us, I have
had to

try to help people in real life away from this place and been almost
embarrassed when you eventually track down the issue to the actual
changes in the software and nothing to do with the end user, except
that he or she happens to be blind.

I'll shut up now and be quiet, bite my lip etc for a while. I nearly
bought

a new laptop last week but after reading about all the win 10 issues
decided

not to bother.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 4:22 AM
Subject: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a
reason

why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...


Dear NVDA community,



Disclaimer: for new community members, I'm normally not like this,
but I do sometimes right posts I believe folks should hear, as it
impacts community experience and what not. So my sincere apologies
for letting you witness my explosive side. Please bear with me for a
second, as it is important that

I
talk about the following regarding respecting engineers and announce
a directive for Windows 10 users:



In the blindness community (at least for members of various mailing
lists that I'm a part of or lead), I became synonymous with someone
who is willing to show patience until the end, especially when
resolving tech support problems. But there is a hidden side to that:
for certain things, I become

a
volcano, and those who've witnessed my lava flow knows what I mean.
Unfortunately, I believe it is time that I explode yet again (my
apologies to our dear leaders for doing something like this):



Answering questions: for many situations, when resolving issues, when
I and other engineers ask you questions in hopes of getting to the
meat of the burger. Sometimes we may ask you to tell us steps to
reproduce the given problem, what a screen reader says, and what not.
When developers ask you questions, please do your best to answer them
if possible.



For Windows 10 users: there is an important reason why I wrote
Windows 10 App Essentials: to prevent issues like the one Rosemarie
and others have experienced with Mail app. Hence the following directive:



Until now, it was optional for you to use Windows 10 app Essentials
add-on if you are using Windows 10. I'll make this an important
requirement starting from fall 2017. That is, starting from September
2017, when you report issues like the one Rosemarie has experienced,
I'll no longer ask you to install latest WinTenApps add-on: I'll
assume that you have. For Windows Insiders, this is a critical (and
mandatory) requirement.



I'm not announcing this directive just because I feel like doing it,
nor to increase popularity of my brainchild: Windows 10 App
Essentials add-on exists for important reasons:



* Workarounds for issues encountered by NVDA users when using Windows
10, including various UI Automation issues.
* Respond to changes in accessibility of various apps such as
removing workarounds put in place in past versions.
* Respond to app executable name changes (Microsoft has changed names
of at least three universal app executables).
* Provide essential features for Windows 10 users, including
suggestions announcement, emoji panel support (Fall Creators Update),
Edge notification announcements and others.
* To prove to Microsoft and third-party universal app developers that
accessibility should be a core design criteria for apps, including
letting screen reader users use apps to their full potential.



Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph





--
search for me on facebook, google+, orkut..
austinpinto.xaviers@gmail.com
follow me on twitter.
austinmpinto
contact me on skype.
austin.pinto3


 

Hi,

Features from this add-on are being slowly integrated into NVDA Core at the moment. The biggest thing is under active testing in the next branch at the moment, and if things work out well, people will be able to hear search suggestion sounds starting from August 2017 without needing to use the add-on.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ron Canazzi
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 4:46 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a reason why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...

 

I don't want to make anyone mad, but here goes.

 

If this Windows ten ap is so important to have, why isn't it somehow included with the core of NVDA rather than as a separate item that must be downloaded by the user?

 

 

On 6/18/2017 11:22 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Dear NVDA community,

 

Disclaimer: for new community members, I’m normally not like this, but I do sometimes right posts I believe folks should hear, as it impacts community experience and what not. So my sincere apologies for letting you witness my explosive side. Please bear with me for a second, as it is important that I talk about the following regarding respecting engineers and announce a directive for Windows 10 users:

 

In the blindness community (at least for members of various mailing lists that I’m a part of or lead), I became synonymous with someone who is willing to show patience until the end, especially when resolving tech support problems. But there is a hidden side to that: for certain things, I become a volcano, and those who’ve witnessed my lava flow knows what I mean. Unfortunately, I believe it is time that I explode yet again (my apologies to our dear leaders for doing something like this):

 

Answering questions: for many situations, when resolving issues, when I and other engineers ask you questions in hopes of getting to the meat of the burger. Sometimes we may ask you to tell us steps to reproduce the given problem, what a screen reader says, and what not. When developers ask you questions, please do your best to answer them if possible.

 

For Windows 10 users: there is an important reason why I wrote Windows 10 App Essentials: to prevent issues like the one Rosemarie and others have experienced with Mail app. Hence the following directive:

 

Until now, it was optional for you to use Windows 10 app Essentials add-on if you are using Windows 10. I’ll make this an important requirement starting from fall 2017. That is, starting from September 2017, when you report issues like the one Rosemarie has experienced, I’ll no longer ask you to install latest WinTenApps add-on: I’ll assume that you have. For Windows Insiders, this is a critical (and mandatory) requirement.

 

I’m not announcing this directive just because I feel like doing it, nor to increase popularity of my brainchild: Windows 10 App Essentials add-on exists for important reasons:

 

  • Workarounds for issues encountered by NVDA users when using Windows 10, including various UI Automation issues.
  • Respond to changes in accessibility of various apps such as removing workarounds put in place in past versions.
  • Respond to app executable name changes (Microsoft has changed names of at least three universal app executables).
  • Provide essential features for Windows 10 users, including suggestions announcement, emoji panel support (Fall Creators Update), Edge notification announcements and others.
  • To prove to Microsoft and third-party universal app developers that accessibility should be a core design criteria for apps, including letting screen reader users use apps to their full potential.

 

Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph



--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
 

That will be so cool!

I'm really looking forward to what the addon will bring in the future.

Chris.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 19, 2017, at 10:44, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:

Hi,

Features from this add-on are being slowly integrated into NVDA Core at the moment. The biggest thing is under active testing in the next branch at the moment, and if things work out well, people will be able to hear search suggestion sounds starting from August 2017 without needing to use the add-on.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ron Canazzi
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 4:46 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a reason why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...

 

I don't want to make anyone mad, but here goes.

 

If this Windows ten ap is so important to have, why isn't it somehow included with the core of NVDA rather than as a separate item that must be downloaded by the user?

 

 

On 6/18/2017 11:22 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Dear NVDA community,

 

Disclaimer: for new community members, I’m normally not like this, but I do sometimes right posts I believe folks should hear, as it impacts community experience and what not. So my sincere apologies for letting you witness my explosive side. Please bear with me for a second, as it is important that I talk about the following regarding respecting engineers and announce a directive for Windows 10 users:

 

In the blindness community (at least for members of various mailing lists that I’m a part of or lead), I became synonymous with someone who is willing to show patience until the end, especially when resolving tech support problems. But there is a hidden side to that: for certain things, I become a volcano, and those who’ve witnessed my lava flow knows what I mean. Unfortunately, I believe it is time that I explode yet again (my apologies to our dear leaders for doing something like this):

 

Answering questions: for many situations, when resolving issues, when I and other engineers ask you questions in hopes of getting to the meat of the burger. Sometimes we may ask you to tell us steps to reproduce the given problem, what a screen reader says, and what not. When developers ask you questions, please do your best to answer them if possible.

 

For Windows 10 users: there is an important reason why I wrote Windows 10 App Essentials: to prevent issues like the one Rosemarie and others have experienced with Mail app. Hence the following directive:

 

Until now, it was optional for you to use Windows 10 app Essentials add-on if you are using Windows 10. I’ll make this an important requirement starting from fall 2017. That is, starting from September 2017, when you report issues like the one Rosemarie has experienced, I’ll no longer ask you to install latest WinTenApps add-on: I’ll assume that you have. For Windows Insiders, this is a critical (and mandatory) requirement.

 

I’m not announcing this directive just because I feel like doing it, nor to increase popularity of my brainchild: Windows 10 App Essentials add-on exists for important reasons:

 

  • Workarounds for issues encountered by NVDA users when using Windows 10, including various UI Automation issues.
  • Respond to changes in accessibility of various apps such as removing workarounds put in place in past versions.
  • Respond to app executable name changes (Microsoft has changed names of at least three universal app executables).
  • Provide essential features for Windows 10 users, including suggestions announcement, emoji panel support (Fall Creators Update), Edge notification announcements and others.
  • To prove to Microsoft and third-party universal app developers that accessibility should be a core design criteria for apps, including letting screen reader users use apps to their full potential.

 

Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph



--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Arlene
 

Hi, I can't say I don’t blame you for switching to Mac! I hear win ten is looking like Mac. Some say it looks like 7.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Pascal Lambert
Sent: June-19-17 6:55 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a reason why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...

I echo the same sentiment as Brian. The Win10 anniversary already caused me to buy another laptop I did not need as I was leaving on an overseas trip and my laptop was totally messed up after the update. I am honestly about to switch to a Mac as the Win environment is not reliable.
Blessings
Pascal

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Austin Pinto
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 4:02 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a reason why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...

oh! when you said explode i thought it would sound much worced but.
its a nice directive

On 6/19/17, Brian's Mail list account <bglists@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
Joseph, though I do understand where you are coming from and the
frustration

you feel, I do honestly have sympathy with the end user who just wants
a reliable system.
Microsoft have to shoulder a good deal of the blame for what their
changes cause. I'm not suggesting in any way that they are
deliberately screwing things up here, just that they really do not
test stuff enough. For people

who do not use special builds of windows, ie insiders, or nvda. I do
not think it unreasonable to expect continuity and after a while
people do get fed up with having the rug pulled from under them on a
regular basis by software makers, be that Microsoft or anyone else.
So yes, in a development environment you would be justified in being
annoyed, but when people are trying to run their lives day to day and
keep encountering stones in the road and potholes not of their own
making it is,

I think understandable if people get fed up and take the easy option.
I have I know said much of this before, but like most of us, I have
had to

try to help people in real life away from this place and been almost
embarrassed when you eventually track down the issue to the actual
changes in the software and nothing to do with the end user, except
that he or she happens to be blind.

I'll shut up now and be quiet, bite my lip etc for a while. I nearly
bought

a new laptop last week but after reading about all the win 10 issues
decided

not to bother.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 4:22 AM
Subject: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a
reason

why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...


Dear NVDA community,



Disclaimer: for new community members, I'm normally not like this,
but I do sometimes right posts I believe folks should hear, as it
impacts community experience and what not. So my sincere apologies
for letting you witness my explosive side. Please bear with me for a
second, as it is important that

I
talk about the following regarding respecting engineers and announce
a directive for Windows 10 users:



In the blindness community (at least for members of various mailing
lists that I'm a part of or lead), I became synonymous with someone
who is willing to show patience until the end, especially when
resolving tech support problems. But there is a hidden side to that:
for certain things, I become

a
volcano, and those who've witnessed my lava flow knows what I mean.
Unfortunately, I believe it is time that I explode yet again (my
apologies to our dear leaders for doing something like this):



Answering questions: for many situations, when resolving issues, when
I and other engineers ask you questions in hopes of getting to the
meat of the burger. Sometimes we may ask you to tell us steps to
reproduce the given problem, what a screen reader says, and what not.
When developers ask you questions, please do your best to answer them
if possible.



For Windows 10 users: there is an important reason why I wrote
Windows 10 App Essentials: to prevent issues like the one Rosemarie
and others have experienced with Mail app. Hence the following directive:



Until now, it was optional for you to use Windows 10 app Essentials
add-on if you are using Windows 10. I'll make this an important
requirement starting from fall 2017. That is, starting from September
2017, when you report issues like the one Rosemarie has experienced,
I'll no longer ask you to install latest WinTenApps add-on: I'll
assume that you have. For Windows Insiders, this is a critical (and
mandatory) requirement.



I'm not announcing this directive just because I feel like doing it,
nor to increase popularity of my brainchild: Windows 10 App
Essentials add-on exists for important reasons:



* Workarounds for issues encountered by NVDA users when using Windows
10, including various UI Automation issues.
* Respond to changes in accessibility of various apps such as
removing workarounds put in place in past versions.
* Respond to app executable name changes (Microsoft has changed names
of at least three universal app executables).
* Provide essential features for Windows 10 users, including
suggestions announcement, emoji panel support (Fall Creators Update),
Edge notification announcements and others.
* To prove to Microsoft and third-party universal app developers that
accessibility should be a core design criteria for apps, including
letting screen reader users use apps to their full potential.



Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph





--
search for me on facebook, google+, orkut..
austinpinto.xaviers@gmail.com
follow me on twitter.
austinmpinto
contact me on skype.
austin.pinto3


Robin Frost
 

Hi,
Messages like the one below always cause me great concern when I encounter them on lists such as this.
For the record I'd like to say the following in the interest of balance. I like many others had my baptism by fire as it were emersion into Windows necessitated by the death of my Windows 7 machine. And I would like to proclaim that my experience while involving a slight learning curve as moving to a new operating system version often does was relatively painless and seamless. I took it upon myself to learn as much as I could about any significant changes and I also composed a list of keystrokes that might have changed and anything I might want to change for optimal screen reader usage in the new environment to make my transition as easy as possible. the latter was minimal in the case of Windows 10.
It is one thing to state something as an opinion such as I feel that or it's been my experience that Windows 10 is unreliable; but to make a blanket statement that it is so as though it is fact for all is at the very least misleading and at its worst is blatantly erroneous.
I've been using Windows 10 for 18 or so months now and over all I've found it to be quite stable in terms of performance.

I mean no disrespect and hope I've offended no one especially the moderators by that which I've said. I just hate to think of someone holding back from updating a current machine, purchasing a new machine or feeling like they must completely abandon an operating system solely on the basis of opinions as opposed to facts. If someone chooses to make a purchase based on that which works best for them that's one thing I'd just hate for such to be fueled by that which promotes fear as opposed to fostering enlightenment or learning something new.
Respectfully,
Robin

-----Original Message-----
From: Pascal Lambert
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 9:55 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a reason why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...

I echo the same sentiment as Brian. The Win10 anniversary already caused me to buy another laptop I did not need as I was leaving on an overseas trip and my laptop was totally messed up after the update. I am honestly about to switch to a Mac as the Win environment is not reliable.
Blessings
Pascal

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Austin Pinto
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 4:02 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a reason why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...

oh! when you said explode i thought it would sound much worced but.
its a nice directive

On 6/19/17, Brian's Mail list account <bglists@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
Joseph, though I do understand where you are coming from and the
frustration

you feel, I do honestly have sympathy with the end user who just wants
a reliable system.
Microsoft have to shoulder a good deal of the blame for what their
changes cause. I'm not suggesting in any way that they are
deliberately screwing things up here, just that they really do not
test stuff enough. For people

who do not use special builds of windows, ie insiders, or nvda. I do
not think it unreasonable to expect continuity and after a while
people do get fed up with having the rug pulled from under them on a
regular basis by software makers, be that Microsoft or anyone else.
So yes, in a development environment you would be justified in being
annoyed, but when people are trying to run their lives day to day and
keep encountering stones in the road and potholes not of their own
making it is,

I think understandable if people get fed up and take the easy option.
I have I know said much of this before, but like most of us, I have
had to

try to help people in real life away from this place and been almost
embarrassed when you eventually track down the issue to the actual
changes in the software and nothing to do with the end user, except
that he or she happens to be blind.

I'll shut up now and be quiet, bite my lip etc for a while. I nearly
bought

a new laptop last week but after reading about all the win 10 issues
decided

not to bother.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 4:22 AM
Subject: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a
reason

why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...


Dear NVDA community,



Disclaimer: for new community members, I'm normally not like this,
but I do sometimes right posts I believe folks should hear, as it
impacts community experience and what not. So my sincere apologies
for letting you witness my explosive side. Please bear with me for a
second, as it is important that

I
talk about the following regarding respecting engineers and announce
a directive for Windows 10 users:



In the blindness community (at least for members of various mailing
lists that I'm a part of or lead), I became synonymous with someone
who is willing to show patience until the end, especially when
resolving tech support problems. But there is a hidden side to that:
for certain things, I become

a
volcano, and those who've witnessed my lava flow knows what I mean.
Unfortunately, I believe it is time that I explode yet again (my
apologies to our dear leaders for doing something like this):



Answering questions: for many situations, when resolving issues, when
I and other engineers ask you questions in hopes of getting to the
meat of the burger. Sometimes we may ask you to tell us steps to
reproduce the given problem, what a screen reader says, and what not.
When developers ask you questions, please do your best to answer them
if possible.



For Windows 10 users: there is an important reason why I wrote
Windows 10 App Essentials: to prevent issues like the one Rosemarie
and others have experienced with Mail app. Hence the following directive:



Until now, it was optional for you to use Windows 10 app Essentials
add-on if you are using Windows 10. I'll make this an important
requirement starting from fall 2017. That is, starting from September
2017, when you report issues like the one Rosemarie has experienced,
I'll no longer ask you to install latest WinTenApps add-on: I'll
assume that you have. For Windows Insiders, this is a critical (and
mandatory) requirement.



I'm not announcing this directive just because I feel like doing it,
nor to increase popularity of my brainchild: Windows 10 App
Essentials add-on exists for important reasons:



* Workarounds for issues encountered by NVDA users when using Windows
10, including various UI Automation issues.
* Respond to changes in accessibility of various apps such as
removing workarounds put in place in past versions.
* Respond to app executable name changes (Microsoft has changed names
of at least three universal app executables).
* Provide essential features for Windows 10 users, including
suggestions announcement, emoji panel support (Fall Creators Update),
Edge notification announcements and others.
* To prove to Microsoft and third-party universal app developers that
accessibility should be a core design criteria for apps, including
letting screen reader users use apps to their full potential.



Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph





--
search for me on facebook, google+, orkut..
austinpinto.xaviers@gmail.com
follow me on twitter.
austinmpinto
contact me on skype.
austin.pinto3


Gene
 

This message is long; you may want to read it now or when you have more time, if you are busy now.
 
You have stated how you found Windows on one machine.  It isn't a fact in general.  it is a fact regarding your personal experience.  It is my impression that a lot of people have found Windows 10 to be reliable.  But, in the case of blind users, many continually have problems with Microsoft making changes to universal apps that degrades accessibility in those apps.  Do you use universal apps such as the mail app or do you use Windows 10 to run traditional programs? 
 
Just yesterday, on the NVDA users list, there was discussion of how the e-mail app had serious problems after Microsoft updated it in terms of accessibility.  the problems could be corrected by using the latest version of the add on for NVDA that is released by NVDA, largely to deal with the unending problems Microsoft causes by not testing its apps properly for accessibility.  I believe it was on this list yesterday or the day before that I asked about Microsoft testing its universal apps.  An NVDA developer said that Microsoft tests them using Narrator.  That's not anything remotely resembling proper testing. 
 
My point is that your experience is very conditional.  If you had driver problems and forced driver updates kept undoing the changes you made to cause your system to work properly, you wouldn't have as good an experience as you report.  If you used universal apps, your experience would be a cat and mouse game depending on how well and how quickly your screen-reader delt with the changes Microsoft made to these apps after releasing them with completely inadequate testing.  And there is a basic principle that a machine owner has the right to control what is done to his/her machine.  Microsoft, in not allowing updates to be controled as in previous versions of Windows is, in effect, asserting the right to control your, not their, machine.  They license Windows to you, they don't license your machine to you.
 
Microsoft gave Windows 10 away for free to meet their financial goals to monitize Windows, not the users best interests.  I am very glad that I didn't fall for Microsoft's snake oil.  My Windows 7 machine works well and I can do everything I want to with it.  I control my machine, not Microsoft.  I will not upgrade my well working, reliable Windows 7 machine to Windows 10.  When I buy a new computer, it will have Windows 10 on it.  I won't upgrade to Windows 10 just because Microsoft does everything it can to entice me to do so for their advantage, not mine. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Monday, June 19, 2017 9:55 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a
reason why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...

I echo the same sentiment as Brian.  The Win10 anniversary already caused me
to buy another laptop I did not need as I was leaving on an overseas trip
and my laptop was totally messed up after the update.  I am honestly about
to switch to a Mac as the Win environment is not reliable.
Blessings
Pascal

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Austin
Pinto
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 4:02 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a
reason why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...

oh! when you said explode i thought it would sound much worced but.
its a nice directive

On 6/19/17, Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...> wrote:
> Joseph, though I do understand where you are coming from and the
> frustration
>
> you feel, I do honestly have sympathy with the end user who just wants
> a reliable system.
> Microsoft have to shoulder a good deal of the blame for what their
> changes cause. I'm not suggesting in any way that they are
> deliberately  screwing things up here, just that they  really do not
> test stuff enough. For people
>
> who do not use special builds of windows, ie insiders, or nvda. I do
> not think it unreasonable to expect continuity and after a while
> people do get fed up with having the rug pulled from under them on a
> regular basis by software makers, be that Microsoft or anyone else.
>  So yes, in a development environment you would be justified in being
> annoyed, but when people are trying to run their lives day to day and
> keep encountering stones in the road and potholes not of their own
> making  it is,
>
> I think understandable if people get fed up and take the easy option.
>  I have I know said much of this before, but like most of us, I have
> had to
>
> try to help people in real life away from this place and been almost
> embarrassed when you eventually track down the issue to the actual
> changes in the software and nothing to do with the end user, except
> that he or she happens to be blind.
>
> I'll shut up now and  be quiet, bite my lip etc for a while. I nearly
> bought
>
> a new laptop last week but after reading about all the win 10 issues
> decided
>
> not to bother.
>  Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 4:22 AM
> Subject: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a
> reason
>
> why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...
>
>
>> Dear NVDA community,
>>
>>
>>
>> Disclaimer: for new community members, I'm normally not like this,
>> but I do sometimes right posts I believe folks should hear, as it
>> impacts community experience and what not. So my sincere apologies
>> for letting you witness my explosive side. Please bear with me for a
>> second, as it is important that
>>
>> I
>> talk about the following regarding respecting engineers and announce
>> a directive for Windows 10 users:
>>
>>
>>
>> In the blindness community (at least for members of various mailing
>> lists that I'm a part of or lead), I became synonymous with someone
>> who is willing to show patience until the end, especially when
>> resolving tech support problems. But there is a hidden side to that:
>> for certain things, I become
>>
>> a
>> volcano, and those who've witnessed my lava flow knows what I mean.
>> Unfortunately, I believe it is time that I explode yet again (my
>> apologies to our dear leaders for doing something like this):
>>
>>
>>
>> Answering questions: for many situations, when resolving issues, when
>> I and other engineers ask you questions in hopes of getting to the
>> meat of the burger. Sometimes we may ask you to tell us steps to
>> reproduce the given problem, what a screen reader says, and what not.
>> When developers ask you questions, please do your best to answer them
>> if possible.
>>
>>
>>
>> For Windows 10 users: there is an important reason why I wrote
>> Windows 10 App Essentials: to prevent issues like the one Rosemarie
>> and others have experienced with Mail app. Hence the following directive:
>>
>>
>>
>> Until now, it was optional for you to use Windows 10 app Essentials
>> add-on if you are using Windows 10. I'll make this an important
>> requirement starting from fall 2017. That is, starting from September
>> 2017, when you report issues like the one Rosemarie has experienced,
>> I'll no longer ask you to install latest WinTenApps add-on: I'll
>> assume that you have. For Windows Insiders, this is a critical (and
>> mandatory) requirement.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm not announcing this directive just because I feel like doing it,
>> nor to increase popularity of my brainchild: Windows 10 App
>> Essentials add-on exists for important reasons:
>>
>>
>>
>> * Workarounds for issues encountered by NVDA users when using Windows
>> 10, including various UI Automation issues.
>> * Respond to changes in accessibility of various apps such as
>> removing workarounds put in place in past versions.
>> * Respond to app executable name changes (Microsoft has changed names
>> of at least three universal app executables).
>> * Provide essential features for Windows 10 users, including
>> suggestions announcement, emoji panel support (Fall Creators Update),
>> Edge notification announcements and others.
>> * To prove to Microsoft and third-party universal app developers that
>> accessibility should be a core design criteria for apps, including
>> letting screen reader users use apps to their full potential.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Joseph
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>


--
search for me on facebook, google+, orkut..
austinpinto.xaviers@...
follow me on twitter.
austinmpinto
contact me on skype.
austin.pinto3










Gene
 

I evidently respondedd to a message that didn't include the comments I was responding to.  As far as I know, it was in this thread that someone said that their Windows 10 has worked well and that they object to the characterizations of some users that it doesn't in general.  I'm not completely paraphrasing the message correctly, I evidently no longer have it but that gives readers following the thread enough information to know what message I was commenting on.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 2:30 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a reason why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...

This message is long; you may want to read it now or when you have more time, if you are busy now.
 
You have stated how you found Windows on one machine.  It isn't a fact in general.  it is a fact regarding your personal experience.  It is my impression that a lot of people have found Windows 10 to be reliable.  But, in the case of blind users, many continually have problems with Microsoft making changes to universal apps that degrades accessibility in those apps.  Do you use universal apps such as the mail app or do you use Windows 10 to run traditional programs? 
 
Just yesterday, on the NVDA users list, there was discussion of how the e-mail app had serious problems after Microsoft updated it in terms of accessibility.  the problems could be corrected by using the latest version of the add on for NVDA that is released by NVDA, largely to deal with the unending problems Microsoft causes by not testing its apps properly for accessibility.  I believe it was on this list yesterday or the day before that I asked about Microsoft testing its universal apps.  An NVDA developer said that Microsoft tests them using Narrator.  That's not anything remotely resembling proper testing. 
 
My point is that your experience is very conditional.  If you had driver problems and forced driver updates kept undoing the changes you made to cause your system to work properly, you wouldn't have as good an experience as you report.  If you used universal apps, your experience would be a cat and mouse game depending on how well and how quickly your screen-reader delt with the changes Microsoft made to these apps after releasing them with completely inadequate testing.  And there is a basic principle that a machine owner has the right to control what is done to his/her machine.  Microsoft, in not allowing updates to be controled as in previous versions of Windows is, in effect, asserting the right to control your, not their, machine.  They license Windows to you, they don't license your machine to you.
 
Microsoft gave Windows 10 away for free to meet their financial goals to monitize Windows, not the users best interests.  I am very glad that I didn't fall for Microsoft's snake oil.  My Windows 7 machine works well and I can do everything I want to with it.  I control my machine, not Microsoft.  I will not upgrade my well working, reliable Windows 7 machine to Windows 10.  When I buy a new computer, it will have Windows 10 on it.  I won't upgrade to Windows 10 just because Microsoft does everything it can to entice me to do so for their advantage, not mine. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Monday, June 19, 2017 9:55 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a
reason why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...

I echo the same sentiment as Brian.  The Win10 anniversary already caused me
to buy another laptop I did not need as I was leaving on an overseas trip
and my laptop was totally messed up after the update.  I am honestly about
to switch to a Mac as the Win environment is not reliable.
Blessings
Pascal

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Austin
Pinto
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 4:02 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a
reason why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...

oh! when you said explode i thought it would sound much worced but.
its a nice directive

On 6/19/17, Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...> wrote:
> Joseph, though I do understand where you are coming from and the
> frustration
>
> you feel, I do honestly have sympathy with the end user who just wants
> a reliable system.
> Microsoft have to shoulder a good deal of the blame for what their
> changes cause. I'm not suggesting in any way that they are
> deliberately  screwing things up here, just that they  really do not
> test stuff enough. For people
>
> who do not use special builds of windows, ie insiders, or nvda. I do
> not think it unreasonable to expect continuity and after a while
> people do get fed up with having the rug pulled from under them on a
> regular basis by software makers, be that Microsoft or anyone else.
>  So yes, in a development environment you would be justified in being
> annoyed, but when people are trying to run their lives day to day and
> keep encountering stones in the road and potholes not of their own
> making  it is,
>
> I think understandable if people get fed up and take the easy option.
>  I have I know said much of this before, but like most of us, I have
> had to
>
> try to help people in real life away from this place and been almost
> embarrassed when you eventually track down the issue to the actual
> changes in the software and nothing to do with the end user, except
> that he or she happens to be blind.
>
> I'll shut up now and  be quiet, bite my lip etc for a while. I nearly
> bought
>
> a new laptop last week but after reading about all the win 10 issues
> decided
>
> not to bother.
>  Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 4:22 AM
> Subject: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a
> reason
>
> why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...
>
>
>> Dear NVDA community,
>>
>>
>>
>> Disclaimer: for new community members, I'm normally not like this,
>> but I do sometimes right posts I believe folks should hear, as it
>> impacts community experience and what not. So my sincere apologies
>> for letting you witness my explosive side. Please bear with me for a
>> second, as it is important that
>>
>> I
>> talk about the following regarding respecting engineers and announce
>> a directive for Windows 10 users:
>>
>>
>>
>> In the blindness community (at least for members of various mailing
>> lists that I'm a part of or lead), I became synonymous with someone
>> who is willing to show patience until the end, especially when
>> resolving tech support problems. But there is a hidden side to that:
>> for certain things, I become
>>
>> a
>> volcano, and those who've witnessed my lava flow knows what I mean.
>> Unfortunately, I believe it is time that I explode yet again (my
>> apologies to our dear leaders for doing something like this):
>>
>>
>>
>> Answering questions: for many situations, when resolving issues, when
>> I and other engineers ask you questions in hopes of getting to the
>> meat of the burger. Sometimes we may ask you to tell us steps to
>> reproduce the given problem, what a screen reader says, and what not.
>> When developers ask you questions, please do your best to answer them
>> if possible.
>>
>>
>>
>> For Windows 10 users: there is an important reason why I wrote
>> Windows 10 App Essentials: to prevent issues like the one Rosemarie
>> and others have experienced with Mail app. Hence the following directive:
>>
>>
>>
>> Until now, it was optional for you to use Windows 10 app Essentials
>> add-on if you are using Windows 10. I'll make this an important
>> requirement starting from fall 2017. That is, starting from September
>> 2017, when you report issues like the one Rosemarie has experienced,
>> I'll no longer ask you to install latest WinTenApps add-on: I'll
>> assume that you have. For Windows Insiders, this is a critical (and
>> mandatory) requirement.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm not announcing this directive just because I feel like doing it,
>> nor to increase popularity of my brainchild: Windows 10 App
>> Essentials add-on exists for important reasons:
>>
>>
>>
>> * Workarounds for issues encountered by NVDA users when using Windows
>> 10, including various UI Automation issues.
>> * Respond to changes in accessibility of various apps such as
>> removing workarounds put in place in past versions.
>> * Respond to app executable name changes (Microsoft has changed names
>> of at least three universal app executables).
>> * Provide essential features for Windows 10 users, including
>> suggestions announcement, emoji panel support (Fall Creators Update),
>> Edge notification announcements and others.
>> * To prove to Microsoft and third-party universal app developers that
>> accessibility should be a core design criteria for apps, including
>> letting screen reader users use apps to their full potential.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Joseph
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>


--
search for me on facebook, google+, orkut..
austinpinto.xaviers@...
follow me on twitter.
austinmpinto
contact me on skype.
austin.pinto3










Kevin Cussick
 

the one advantage as an addon is if there is a problem it can be fixed fast like the mail app.

On 19/06/2017 12:46, Ron Canazzi wrote:
I don't want to make anyone mad, but here goes.
If this Windows ten ap is so important to have, why isn't it somehow included with the core of NVDA rather than as a separate item that must be downloaded by the user?
On 6/18/2017 11:22 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Dear NVDA community,

Disclaimer: for new community members, I’m normally not like this, but I do sometimes right posts I believe folks should hear, as it impacts community experience and what not. So my sincere apologies for letting you witness my explosive side. Please bear with me for a second, as it is important that I talk about the following regarding respecting engineers and announce a directive for Windows 10 users:

In the blindness community (at least for members of various mailing lists that I’m a part of or lead), I became synonymous with someone who is willing to show patience until the end, especially when resolving tech support problems. But there is a hidden side to that: for certain things, I become a volcano, and those who’ve witnessed my lava flow knows what I mean. Unfortunately, I believe it is time that I explode yet again (my apologies to our dear leaders for doing something like this):

Answering questions: for many situations, when resolving issues, when I and other engineers ask you questions in hopes of getting to the meat of the burger. Sometimes we may ask you to tell us steps to reproduce the given problem, what a screen reader says, and what not. When developers ask you questions, please do your best to answer them if possible.

For Windows 10 users: there is an important reason why I wrote Windows 10 App Essentials: to prevent issues like the one Rosemarie and others have experienced with Mail app. Hence the following directive:

Until now, it was optional for you to use Windows 10 app Essentials add-on if you are using Windows 10. I’ll make this an important requirement starting from fall 2017. That is, starting from September 2017, when you report issues like the one Rosemarie has experienced, I’ll no longer ask you to install latest WinTenApps add-on: I’ll assume that you have. For Windows Insiders, this is a critical (and mandatory) requirement.

I’m not announcing this directive just because I feel like doing it, nor to increase popularity of my brainchild: Windows 10 App Essentials add-on exists for important reasons:

* Workarounds for issues encountered by NVDA users when using
Windows 10, including various UI Automation issues.
* Respond to changes in accessibility of various apps such as
removing workarounds put in place in past versions.
* Respond to app executable name changes (Microsoft has changed
names of at least three universal app executables).
* Provide essential features for Windows 10 users, including
suggestions announcement, emoji panel support (Fall Creators
Update), Edge notification announcements and others.
* To prove to Microsoft and third-party universal app developers
that accessibility should be a core design criteria for apps,
including letting screen reader users use apps to their full
potential.

Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
 

Likewise.
 
Please, guys, can we be respectful here?
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 3:40 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a reason why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...

Joseph, though I do understand where you are coming from and the frustration
you feel, I do honestly have sympathy with the end user who just wants a
reliable system.
Microsoft have to shoulder a good deal of the blame for what their changes
cause. I'm not suggesting in any way that they are deliberately  screwing
things up here, just that they  really do not test stuff enough. For people
who do not use special builds of windows, ie insiders, or nvda. I do not
think it unreasonable to expect continuity and after a while people do get
fed up with having the rug pulled from under them on a regular basis by
software makers, be that Microsoft or anyone else.
 So yes, in a development environment you would be justified in being
annoyed, but when people are trying to run their lives day to day and keep
encountering stones in the road and potholes not of their own making  it is,
I think understandable if people get fed up and take the easy option.
 I have I know said much of this before, but like most of us, I have had to
try to help people in real life away from this place and been almost
embarrassed when you eventually track down the issue to the actual changes
in the software and nothing to do with the end user, except that he or she
happens to be blind.

I'll shut up now and  be quiet, bite my lip etc for a while. I nearly bought
a new laptop last week but after reading about all the win 10 issues decided
not to bother.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 4:22 AM
Subject: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a reason
why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...


> Dear NVDA community,
>
>
>
> Disclaimer: for new community members, I'm normally not like this, but I
> do
> sometimes right posts I believe folks should hear, as it impacts community
> experience and what not. So my sincere apologies for letting you witness
> my
> explosive side. Please bear with me for a second, as it is important that
> I
> talk about the following regarding respecting engineers and announce a
> directive for Windows 10 users:
>
>
>
> In the blindness community (at least for members of various mailing lists
> that I'm a part of or lead), I became synonymous with someone who is
> willing
> to show patience until the end, especially when resolving tech support
> problems. But there is a hidden side to that: for certain things, I become
> a
> volcano, and those who've witnessed my lava flow knows what I mean.
> Unfortunately, I believe it is time that I explode yet again (my apologies
> to our dear leaders for doing something like this):
>
>
>
> Answering questions: for many situations, when resolving issues, when I
> and
> other engineers ask you questions in hopes of getting to the meat of the
> burger. Sometimes we may ask you to tell us steps to reproduce the given
> problem, what a screen reader says, and what not. When developers ask you
> questions, please do your best to answer them if possible.
>
>
>
> For Windows 10 users: there is an important reason why I wrote Windows 10
> App Essentials: to prevent issues like the one Rosemarie and others have
> experienced with Mail app. Hence the following directive:
>
>
>
> Until now, it was optional for you to use Windows 10 app Essentials add-on
> if you are using Windows 10. I'll make this an important requirement
> starting from fall 2017. That is, starting from September 2017, when you
> report issues like the one Rosemarie has experienced, I'll no longer ask
> you
> to install latest WinTenApps add-on: I'll assume that you have. For
> Windows
> Insiders, this is a critical (and mandatory) requirement.
>
>
>
> I'm not announcing this directive just because I feel like doing it, nor
> to
> increase popularity of my brainchild: Windows 10 App Essentials add-on
> exists for important reasons:
>
>
>
> * Workarounds for issues encountered by NVDA users when using Windows
> 10, including various UI Automation issues.
> * Respond to changes in accessibility of various apps such as removing
> workarounds put in place in past versions.
> * Respond to app executable name changes (Microsoft has changed names
> of at least three universal app executables).
> * Provide essential features for Windows 10 users, including
> suggestions announcement, emoji panel support (Fall Creators Update), Edge
> notification announcements and others.
> * To prove to Microsoft and third-party universal app developers that
> accessibility should be a core design criteria for apps, including letting
> screen reader users use apps to their full potential.
>
>
>
> Thank you.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Joseph
>
>




Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
 

I'm guessing it's technical reasons, but I'll let the author put in their two cents.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 7:46 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a reason why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...

I don't want to make anyone mad, but here goes.


If this Windows ten ap is so important to have, why isn't it somehow included with the core of NVDA rather than as a separate item that must be downloaded by the user?



On 6/18/2017 11:22 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Dear NVDA community,

 

Disclaimer: for new community members, I’m normally not like this, but I do sometimes right posts I believe folks should hear, as it impacts community experience and what not. So my sincere apologies for letting you witness my explosive side. Please bear with me for a second, as it is important that I talk about the following regarding respecting engineers and announce a directive for Windows 10 users:

 

In the blindness community (at least for members of various mailing lists that I’m a part of or lead), I became synonymous with someone who is willing to show patience until the end, especially when resolving tech support problems. But there is a hidden side to that: for certain things, I become a volcano, and those who’ve witnessed my lava flow knows what I mean. Unfortunately, I believe it is time that I explode yet again (my apologies to our dear leaders for doing something like this):

 

Answering questions: for many situations, when resolving issues, when I and other engineers ask you questions in hopes of getting to the meat of the burger. Sometimes we may ask you to tell us steps to reproduce the given problem, what a screen reader says, and what not. When developers ask you questions, please do your best to answer them if possible.

 

For Windows 10 users: there is an important reason why I wrote Windows 10 App Essentials: to prevent issues like the one Rosemarie and others have experienced with Mail app. Hence the following directive:

 

Until now, it was optional for you to use Windows 10 app Essentials add-on if you are using Windows 10. I’ll make this an important requirement starting from fall 2017. That is, starting from September 2017, when you report issues like the one Rosemarie has experienced, I’ll no longer ask you to install latest WinTenApps add-on: I’ll assume that you have. For Windows Insiders, this is a critical (and mandatory) requirement.

 

I’m not announcing this directive just because I feel like doing it, nor to increase popularity of my brainchild: Windows 10 App Essentials add-on exists for important reasons:

 

  • Workarounds for issues encountered by NVDA users when using Windows 10, including various UI Automation issues.
  • Respond to changes in accessibility of various apps such as removing workarounds put in place in past versions.
  • Respond to app executable name changes (Microsoft has changed names of at least three universal app executables).
  • Provide essential features for Windows 10 users, including suggestions announcement, emoji panel support (Fall Creators Update), Edge notification announcements and others.
  • To prove to Microsoft and third-party universal app developers that accessibility should be a core design criteria for apps, including letting screen reader users use apps to their full potential.

 

Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
 


As both a Windows, and a mac user, I have to totally disagree. The mac looks absolutely nothing like Windows, but that's just one user's opinion, and isn't an official fact, so keep that in mind.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Arlene
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 1:09 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a reason why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...

Hi, I can't say I don’t blame you for switching to Mac! I hear win ten is looking like Mac. Some say it looks like 7.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Pascal Lambert
Sent: June-19-17 6:55 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a reason why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...

I echo the same sentiment as Brian.  The Win10 anniversary already caused me to buy another laptop I did not need as I was leaving on an overseas trip and my laptop was totally messed up after the update.  I am honestly about to switch to a Mac as the Win environment is not reliable.
Blessings
Pascal
  
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Austin Pinto
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 4:02 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a reason why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...

oh! when you said explode i thought it would sound much worced but.
its a nice directive

On 6/19/17, Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...> wrote:
> Joseph, though I do understand where you are coming from and the
> frustration
>
> you feel, I do honestly have sympathy with the end user who just wants
> a reliable system.
> Microsoft have to shoulder a good deal of the blame for what their
> changes cause. I'm not suggesting in any way that they are
> deliberately  screwing things up here, just that they  really do not
> test stuff enough. For people
>
> who do not use special builds of windows, ie insiders, or nvda. I do
> not think it unreasonable to expect continuity and after a while
> people do get fed up with having the rug pulled from under them on a
> regular basis by software makers, be that Microsoft or anyone else.
>  So yes, in a development environment you would be justified in being
> annoyed, but when people are trying to run their lives day to day and
> keep encountering stones in the road and potholes not of their own
> making  it is,
>
> I think understandable if people get fed up and take the easy option.
>  I have I know said much of this before, but like most of us, I have
> had to
>
> try to help people in real life away from this place and been almost
> embarrassed when you eventually track down the issue to the actual
> changes in the software and nothing to do with the end user, except
> that he or she happens to be blind.
>
> I'll shut up now and  be quiet, bite my lip etc for a while. I nearly
> bought
>
> a new laptop last week but after reading about all the win 10 issues
> decided
>
> not to bother.
>  Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 4:22 AM
> Subject: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a
> reason
>
> why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...
>
>
>> Dear NVDA community,
>>
>>
>>
>> Disclaimer: for new community members, I'm normally not like this,
>> but I do sometimes right posts I believe folks should hear, as it
>> impacts community experience and what not. So my sincere apologies
>> for letting you witness my explosive side. Please bear with me for a
>> second, as it is important that
>>
>> I
>> talk about the following regarding respecting engineers and announce
>> a directive for Windows 10 users:
>>
>>
>>
>> In the blindness community (at least for members of various mailing
>> lists that I'm a part of or lead), I became synonymous with someone
>> who is willing to show patience until the end, especially when
>> resolving tech support problems. But there is a hidden side to that:
>> for certain things, I become
>>
>> a
>> volcano, and those who've witnessed my lava flow knows what I mean.
>> Unfortunately, I believe it is time that I explode yet again (my
>> apologies to our dear leaders for doing something like this):
>>
>>
>>
>> Answering questions: for many situations, when resolving issues, when
>> I and other engineers ask you questions in hopes of getting to the
>> meat of the burger. Sometimes we may ask you to tell us steps to
>> reproduce the given problem, what a screen reader says, and what not.
>> When developers ask you questions, please do your best to answer them
>> if possible.
>>
>>
>>
>> For Windows 10 users: there is an important reason why I wrote
>> Windows 10 App Essentials: to prevent issues like the one Rosemarie
>> and others have experienced with Mail app. Hence the following directive:
>>
>>
>>
>> Until now, it was optional for you to use Windows 10 app Essentials
>> add-on if you are using Windows 10. I'll make this an important
>> requirement starting from fall 2017. That is, starting from September
>> 2017, when you report issues like the one Rosemarie has experienced,
>> I'll no longer ask you to install latest WinTenApps add-on: I'll
>> assume that you have. For Windows Insiders, this is a critical (and
>> mandatory) requirement.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm not announcing this directive just because I feel like doing it,
>> nor to increase popularity of my brainchild: Windows 10 App
>> Essentials add-on exists for important reasons:
>>
>>
>>
>> * Workarounds for issues encountered by NVDA users when using Windows
>> 10, including various UI Automation issues.
>> * Respond to changes in accessibility of various apps such as
>> removing workarounds put in place in past versions.
>> * Respond to app executable name changes (Microsoft has changed names
>> of at least three universal app executables).
>> * Provide essential features for Windows 10 users, including
>> suggestions announcement, emoji panel support (Fall Creators Update),
>> Edge notification announcements and others.
>> * To prove to Microsoft and third-party universal app developers that
>> accessibility should be a core design criteria for apps, including
>> letting screen reader users use apps to their full potential.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Joseph
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>


--
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