Clarification: last night's remarks, teaching style


 

Dear NVDA community:

 

I have received several remarks offlist regarding my comment to Rosemarie last night in regards to asking her what she has learned through the Mail app problem. I’ll take full responsibility of my remarks and tone, as a practical step, I’ll refrain from posting to this list for the rest of the week (and if I have offended folks, my sincere apologies).

 

As for teaching style I tend to employ: perhaps my remark from last night came as a result of my approach to teaching, which calls for students to have willingness to think, or at least, learn to think critically by asking tough questions, have willingness to fail in hopes of learning important lessons, and learn from mistakes. Perhaps this came as a result of my communication studies and argumentation training, being a member of the competitive speech and debate squad, things I’ve observed on various forums where people just believe whatever leaders say, or something else. My overall intention for asking Rosemarie to tell me what she has learned was to get her to think critically about what she has gone through, not just get a problem fixed. If I say I’m satisfied with the resolution of a problem, then this means no future preparations and applications through careful thinking. I personally believe in a community where not only people offer solutions, but also a venue where members can think critically, and I do know from a decade’s worth of experience on various forums that I’m thinking of an ideal community. One thing I personally would like to see is folks teaching novices not only the beauty of NVDA through solutions, but also fostering a sense of taking ownership of a product and thinking about it; in other words, I think it would be best to prepare willing novices for a time in the future where novices themselves would become power users and teach folks not only NVDA, but also to think carefully. Also, personally, I do not want our NVDA community to just be called “a community of users and developers of NVDA” – one thing that sets our community apart from others is unity, and I think it would be beneficial in the long run to add another title: thinking individuals.

 

Thanks.

Cheers,

Joseph


Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
 

Thank you for the clarification.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 4:57 PM
Subject: [nvda] Clarification: last night's remarks, teaching style

Dear NVDA community:

 

I have received several remarks offlist regarding my comment to Rosemarie last night in regards to asking her what she has learned through the Mail app problem. I’ll take full responsibility of my remarks and tone, as a practical step, I’ll refrain from posting to this list for the rest of the week (and if I have offended folks, my sincere apologies).

 

As for teaching style I tend to employ: perhaps my remark from last night came as a result of my approach to teaching, which calls for students to have willingness to think, or at least, learn to think critically by asking tough questions, have willingness to fail in hopes of learning important lessons, and learn from mistakes. Perhaps this came as a result of my communication studies and argumentation training, being a member of the competitive speech and debate squad, things I’ve observed on various forums where people just believe whatever leaders say, or something else. My overall intention for asking Rosemarie to tell me what she has learned was to get her to think critically about what she has gone through, not just get a problem fixed. If I say I’m satisfied with the resolution of a problem, then this means no future preparations and applications through careful thinking. I personally believe in a community where not only people offer solutions, but also a venue where members can think critically, and I do know from a decade’s worth of experience on various forums that I’m thinking of an ideal community. One thing I personally would like to see is folks teaching novices not only the beauty of NVDA through solutions, but also fostering a sense of taking ownership of a product and thinking about it; in other words, I think it would be best to prepare willing novices for a time in the future where novices themselves would become power users and teach folks not only NVDA, but also to think carefully. Also, personally, I do not want our NVDA community to just be called “a community of users and developers of NVDA” – one thing that sets our community apart from others is unity, and I think it would be beneficial in the long run to add another title: thinking individuals.

 

Thanks.

Cheers,

Joseph


andy.tidwell
 

Hello Joseph, I may be blasted for this but I feel I need to say something here in your behalf.
I for one think you are doing a very good job with the diversity of this list. There are beginners all the way to power
users of NVDA on this list and I think people need to think for themselves and be willing to try new things. I am a
beginner and have questioned a few posts to this list but when I go back and read over them a few times they make
perfect since.
I want to say that if it were not for those like you and the devs. of NVDA there would be no alternatives for people who can’t afford other screen readers.
My hat is off to you and all who make NVDA possible and I for one really thank you for your time and patience.
Thanks for reading this rant.
 

From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 4:57 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Clarification: last night's remarks, teaching style
 

Dear NVDA community:

 

I have received several remarks offlist regarding my comment to Rosemarie last night in regards to asking her what she has learned through the Mail app problem. I’ll take full responsibility of my remarks and tone, as a practical step, I’ll refrain from posting to this list for the rest of the week (and if I have offended folks, my sincere apologies).

 

As for teaching style I tend to employ: perhaps my remark from last night came as a result of my approach to teaching, which calls for students to have willingness to think, or at least, learn to think critically by asking tough questions, have willingness to fail in hopes of learning important lessons, and learn from mistakes. Perhaps this came as a result of my communication studies and argumentation training, being a member of the competitive speech and debate squad, things I’ve observed on various forums where people just believe whatever leaders say, or something else. My overall intention for asking Rosemarie to tell me what she has learned was to get her to think critically about what she has gone through, not just get a problem fixed. If I say I’m satisfied with the resolution of a problem, then this means no future preparations and applications through careful thinking. I personally believe in a community where not only people offer solutions, but also a venue where members can think critically, and I do know from a decade’s worth of experience on various forums that I’m thinking of an ideal community. One thing I personally would like to see is folks teaching novices not only the beauty of NVDA through solutions, but also fostering a sense of taking ownership of a product and thinking about it; in other words, I think it would be best to prepare willing novices for a time in the future where novices themselves would become power users and teach folks not only NVDA, but also to think carefully. Also, personally, I do not want our NVDA community to just be called “a community of users and developers of NVDA” – one thing that sets our community apart from others is unity, and I think it would be beneficial in the long run to add another title: thinking individuals.

 

Thanks.

Cheers,

Joseph

Jesus dyed for us, why can't we live for him?


Cearbhall O'Meadhra
 

Well said, Joseph!

 

I agree that learning is only really effective if a person has to think through something that is not exactly as it was presented in the learning situation. Their understanding of the basic problem becomes so much clearer and the ability to resolve the situation becomes so much stronger!

 

Keep up the good work!

 

All the best,

 

Cearbhall

 

m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@...

 

 

 

 

 

I use the free version of Spam Reader to get rid of spam. The Professional version doesn't have this disclaimer in outgoing emails. Try Spam Reader for free now!

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 9:58 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Clarification: last night's remarks, teaching style

 

Dear NVDA community:

 

I have received several remarks offlist regarding my comment to Rosemarie last night in regards to asking her what she has learned through the Mail app problem. I’ll take full responsibility of my remarks and tone, as a practical step, I’ll refrain from posting to this list for the rest of the week (and if I have offended folks, my sincere apologies).

 

As for teaching style I tend to employ: perhaps my remark from last night came as a result of my approach to teaching, which calls for students to have willingness to think, or at least, learn to think critically by asking tough questions, have willingness to fail in hopes of learning important lessons, and learn from mistakes. Perhaps this came as a result of my communication studies and argumentation training, being a member of the competitive speech and debate squad, things I’ve observed on various forums where people just believe whatever leaders say, or something else. My overall intention for asking Rosemarie to tell me what she has learned was to get her to think critically about what she has gone through, not just get a problem fixed. If I say I’m satisfied with the resolution of a problem, then this means no future preparations and applications through careful thinking. I personally believe in a community where not only people offer solutions, but also a venue where members can think critically, and I do know from a decade’s worth of experience on various forums that I’m thinking of an ideal community. One thing I personally would like to see is folks teaching novices not only the beauty of NVDA through solutions, but also fostering a sense of taking ownership of a product and thinking about it; in other words, I think it would be best to prepare willing novices for a time in the future where novices themselves would become power users and teach folks not only NVDA, but also to think carefully. Also, personally, I do not want our NVDA community to just be called “a community of users and developers of NVDA” – one thing that sets our community apart from others is unity, and I think it would be beneficial in the long run to add another title: thinking individuals.

 

Thanks.

Cheers,

Joseph


Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Well Joseph, I put a post up detailing why I thought to some extent you were being a little too hard on folk. I see many people who have no interest in the tech stuff, they just want things to work. And I feel that is reasonable. having said that of course posting to a forum or list does at least tell me that they are willing to go at least part of the way to finding a solution, but it can be a very hard road if you have tried things that you consider obvious, and they don't work only to find out that a certain mega corp. has done the deed and this means changing either way you work or installing yet more software to fix it
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 9:57 PM
Subject: [nvda] Clarification: last night's remarks, teaching style


Dear NVDA community:



I have received several remarks offlist regarding my comment to Rosemarie
last night in regards to asking her what she has learned through the Mail
app problem. I'll take full responsibility of my remarks and tone, as a
practical step, I'll refrain from posting to this list for the rest of the
week (and if I have offended folks, my sincere apologies).



As for teaching style I tend to employ: perhaps my remark from last night
came as a result of my approach to teaching, which calls for students to
have willingness to think, or at least, learn to think critically by asking
tough questions, have willingness to fail in hopes of learning important
lessons, and learn from mistakes. Perhaps this came as a result of my
communication studies and argumentation training, being a member of the
competitive speech and debate squad, things I've observed on various forums
where people just believe whatever leaders say, or something else. My
overall intention for asking Rosemarie to tell me what she has learned was
to get her to think critically about what she has gone through, not just get
a problem fixed. If I say I'm satisfied with the resolution of a problem,
then this means no future preparations and applications through careful
thinking. I personally believe in a community where not only people offer
solutions, but also a venue where members can think critically, and I do
know from a decade's worth of experience on various forums that I'm thinking
of an ideal community. One thing I personally would like to see is folks
teaching novices not only the beauty of NVDA through solutions, but also
fostering a sense of taking ownership of a product and thinking about it; in
other words, I think it would be best to prepare willing novices for a time
in the future where novices themselves would become power users and teach
folks not only NVDA, but also to think carefully. Also, personally, I do not
want our NVDA community to just be called "a community of users and
developers of NVDA" - one thing that sets our community apart from others is
unity, and I think it would be beneficial in the long run to add another
title: thinking individuals.



Thanks.

Cheers,

Joseph


 

On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 01:34 am, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
and they don't work only to find out that a certain mega corp. has done the deed and this means changing either way you work or installing yet more software to fix it
In other words, you have to do the same thing that everyone does.

I hate these sorts of changes as much as anyone, but the whining about how things change and having to deal with them whether you want to or not from anyone who's been using a computer for more than a few months just doesn't hold water.  It sounds immature and completely unaware of how the computing world works, and has worked for the coming up on the 35 years I've been in it.

There are challenges inherent in having to use accessibility software that make some of these unexpected changes far more frustrating, and I get that, but they are never going away.  They are a fact of life.

If you can't deal with change, and unexpected change, then get away from computing in particular and technology in general as quickly as you can!

P.S. to Joseph and others:  I applaud that teaching style.  It goes back to the "Give a man a fish/Teach a man to fish" dichotomy.  I make a point of trying to teach my students to expect the unexpected and then to have a system for trying to "think their way out of it" when it occurs.  Sometimes that involves asking for help or asking direct questions of others, but that doesn't remove the need to think about why you're asking what you're asking before you ask it.
--
Brian  Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1703, Build 15063.332

     The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.  But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.

            Niels Bohr

 

 


Tony Ballou
 

Hi Joseph, 


I understand where you are coming from all too well. As a former instructor who turned his attention and career from teaching to I T, some 10 years ago now, the main reason that I left teaching was students failing to practice concepts, lacking the initiative to try things on their own, and most of all just simply asking questions and thinking stuff through. I do still have a few students who have stayed with me through the years because they understand all of the things that you spoke about in your post, and that the road to being a success in this game is paved with mad scientism. Many times, success is achieved by first, having to deal with and conquering failure.  And we conquer this by thinking, practicing, asking questions, and eventually grasping the task. And once that's figured out, the sky can be the limit.


Tony

 


on 6/19/2017 4:57 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Dear NVDA community:

 

I have received several remarks offlist regarding my comment to Rosemarie last night in regards to asking her what she has learned through the Mail app problem. I’ll take full responsibility of my remarks and tone, as a practical step, I’ll refrain from posting to this list for the rest of the week (and if I have offended folks, my sincere apologies).

 

As for teaching style I tend to employ: perhaps my remark from last night came as a result of my approach to teaching, which calls for students to have willingness to think, or at least, learn to think critically by asking tough questions, have willingness to fail in hopes of learning important lessons, and learn from mistakes. Perhaps this came as a result of my communication studies and argumentation training, being a member of the competitive speech and debate squad, things I’ve observed on various forums where people just believe whatever leaders say, or something else. My overall intention for asking Rosemarie to tell me what she has learned was to get her to think critically about what she has gone through, not just get a problem fixed. If I say I’m satisfied with the resolution of a problem, then this means no future preparations and applications through careful thinking. I personally believe in a community where not only people offer solutions, but also a venue where members can think critically, and I do know from a decade’s worth of experience on various forums that I’m thinking of an ideal community. One thing I personally would like to see is folks teaching novices not only the beauty of NVDA through solutions, but also fostering a sense of taking ownership of a product and thinking about it; in other words, I think it would be best to prepare willing novices for a time in the future where novices themselves would become power users and teach folks not only NVDA, but also to think carefully. Also, personally, I do not want our NVDA community to just be called “a community of users and developers of NVDA” – one thing that sets our community apart from others is unity, and I think it would be beneficial in the long run to add another title: thinking individuals.

 

Thanks.

Cheers,

Joseph



Mário Navarro
 

   


long life to Joseph Lee.

cheers.


Às 22:21 de 19/06/2017, andy.tidwell escreveu:

Hello Joseph, I may be blasted for this but I feel I need to say something here in your behalf.
I for one think you are doing a very good job with the diversity of this list. There are beginners all the way to power
users of NVDA on this list and I think people need to think for themselves and be willing to try new things. I am a
beginner and have questioned a few posts to this list but when I go back and read over them a few times they make
perfect since.
I want to say that if it were not for those like you and the devs. of NVDA there would be no alternatives for people who can’t afford other screen readers.
My hat is off to you and all who make NVDA possible and I for one really thank you for your time and patience.
Thanks for reading this rant.
 
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 4:57 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Clarification: last night's remarks, teaching style
 

Dear NVDA community:

 

I have received several remarks offlist regarding my comment to Rosemarie last night in regards to asking her what she has learned through the Mail app problem. I’ll take full responsibility of my remarks and tone, as a practical step, I’ll refrain from posting to this list for the rest of the week (and if I have offended folks, my sincere apologies).

 

As for teaching style I tend to employ: perhaps my remark from last night came as a result of my approach to teaching, which calls for students to have willingness to think, or at least, learn to think critically by asking tough questions, have willingness to fail in hopes of learning important lessons, and learn from mistakes. Perhaps this came as a result of my communication studies and argumentation training, being a member of the competitive speech and debate squad, things I’ve observed on various forums where people just believe whatever leaders say, or something else. My overall intention for asking Rosemarie to tell me what she has learned was to get her to think critically about what she has gone through, not just get a problem fixed. If I say I’m satisfied with the resolution of a problem, then this means no future preparations and applications through careful thinking. I personally believe in a community where not only people offer solutions, but also a venue where members can think critically, and I do know from a decade’s worth of experience on various forums that I’m thinking of an ideal community. One thing I personally would like to see is folks teaching novices not only the beauty of NVDA through solutions, but also fostering a sense of taking ownership of a product and thinking about it; in other words, I think it would be best to prepare willing novices for a time in the future where novices themselves would become power users and teach folks not only NVDA, but also to think carefully. Also, personally, I do not want our NVDA community to just be called “a community of users and developers of NVDA” – one thing that sets our community apart from others is unity, and I think it would be beneficial in the long run to add another title: thinking individuals.

 

Thanks.

Cheers,

Joseph

Jesus dyed for us, why can't we live for him?